Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: When "common sense" isn't

ChrisW

Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:58:43 +1300

The symbolism seems very graphic – I know that feeling well!

Didn’t contribute to the thread above, though about 90% of my journeys are by bicycle. Thoroughly ambivalent on the merits of high vis, have an el cheapo, seem to forget to wear it mostly.

ChrisW

Fri, 15 Mar 2013 16:57:41 +1300

SH35, Gladstone Rd the main street of Gisborne’s CBD is straight ahead across the elderly bridge, while SH35 itself for heavy traffic turns left. Works End – ah, so that means all is safe hereonafter?

BenWilson

Wed, 06 Mar 2013 16:19:44 +1300

Had to laugh at this article. It's a "legal loophole" that you can actually drink and drive? No, it's actually just someone confusing a slogan with the law. The law is not that you can't drink whilst driving, it's that you can't drive whilst over the limit.

BenWilson

Tue, 05 Mar 2013 14:22:57 +1300

The other blindspot that it's well worth cyclists knowing about is that actual blindspot, which is any area that the driver can't see without turning their head backward. This is actually a very large area behind and diagonally away from the vehicle, but the further forward you are the closer…

Christopher Dempsey

Tue, 05 Mar 2013 12:14:14 +1300

Guess driving makes one blind.

Ross Mason

Mon, 04 Mar 2013 22:35:30 +1300

The research that he references in the second paragraph is best demonstrated by the following video (a classic in the study of visual awareness):

It is referred to as Inattention Blindness. There are a whole swag of neat experiments
demonstrating it. The Bear and the Gorilla are but…

BenWilson

Mon, 04 Mar 2013 14:35:55 +1300

Also, the opportunities to look like Cyclops from the X-Men are endless. The dorkiest X-Man of all, whose fighting gesture is the finger pointed to his goggles.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 04 Mar 2013 13:52:30 +1300

I guess some people will welcome Google Glass. Allow continuous review of driving activity and automated revocation of driving privileges. Also, will enable anyone who spends too much time in parties and clubs to be banned from driving. Or who abuses their privileges by attending anti-social events like protest meetings.

Christopher Dempsey

Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:31:26 +1300

To add; the video works for females in prompting them to think about breast cancer checks.

Christopher Dempsey

Sat, 02 Mar 2013 12:51:17 +1300

Nice one. They should do it with him in a hi-viz vest. Then as a super hot, semi-clad woman.

And a super hot semi-clad man. I'd totally miss seeing the woman ('what super hot woman??'), but the man would get my attention every time. Every. Time.

Which is probably why…

Russell Brown

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 18:19:27 +1300

The research that he references in the second paragraph is best demonstrated by the following video (a classic in the study of visual awareness):

I saw the original of this at a lecture by Maryanne Garry at a Skeptics conference. Wouldn't want to give it away, but I was really…

Chris Waugh

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 17:50:03 +1300

but increasing numbers of participating cyclists, sufficient to make them an ever-present and expected part of road activity, will very likely do so.

Absolutely! I've never felt in danger cycling in China, even on rural roads, precisely for that reason. Bicycles and tricycles are simply part of the every day…

BenWilson

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 15:55:10 +1300

Nice one. They should do it with him in a hi-viz vest. Then as a super hot, semi-clad woman.

JackElder

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 14:50:38 +1300

Relevant to the original cycling tip, here's an excellent article from a forensic pathologist – and keen cyclist – in Christchurch:

No amount of gaudy apparel will remedy the failure of drivers to perceive the presence of cyclists, but increasing numbers of participating cyclists, sufficient to make them an ever-present…

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 11:44:16 +1300

There are two ways to answer that, the first is the one you seem to be arguing, that you should set the limit at the point where people become significantly impaired. The problem I have with that method is it is highly variable from person to person and day to…

Islander

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:56:55 +1300

Edit 0.8 to 0.08 in the previous comment. Blowing 0.8 would be some kind of local record, I’d imagine

Bugger! I was about to wade in with comments that *even* in the OFR we never managed that…

BenWilson

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:50:15 +1300

Edit 0.8 to 0.08 in the previous comment. Blowing 0.8 would be some kind of local record, I'd imagine. Most people would have had their last breath long before.

BenWilson

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:24:15 +1300

Subjects could test negative after 5 mins and positive after 30, without drinking any more.

Indeed, although at the time they tested negative, presumably they were not actually that drunk, so an impairment test might tell you something, if it's a very quick test, or you have the level taken…

Russell Brown

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:47:39 +1300

Not really. It’s a really crap test, actually, as you say, unscientific. 6 standard glasses of wine would have put the woman on 0.11, well over the limit, just by counting measures, if she was really big, like 110kg. If she was average sized, say 75kg, she’d have been pushing…

Russell Brown

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:44:17 +1300

but only inasmuch as it gives someone a very rough idea of how much they can drink without going over 0.08 if they know precisely how much alcohol (as in the actual alcohol content, not including all the water) they are consuming.

That's usually printed on the label of what…

BenWilson

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:01:03 +1300

Nice summary, Bart. I'd go with the accident stats, simply because that is the stat that we want to improve. I don't care if people are impaired, if they're not causing accidents. It has the advantage, too, that you don't need to take local conditions into account, in some arbitrary,…

BenWilson

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:47:11 +1300

Because, for the reasons Bart gave, it's not objective.

Yes, it is. "Objective" means something that can be observed or measured by more than just one person. So "how much you drank" is an objective measure. There's no quibbling about this. "How drunk you feel" is subjective. No one else…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:37:26 +1300

When the limit is so high

This is the bit I'm not convinced about Matthew. In practice we are a long way from getting New Zealand to accept a zero limit and personally I'm sure I'd want that either.

So the question what should the limit be?

There are two…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:06:21 +1300

Why is having some objective measure of alcohol intake such a terrible thing?

Because, for the reasons Bart gave, it's not objective. It's vaguely, passably, kinda close to objective, but only inasmuch as it gives someone a very rough idea of how much they can drink without going over 0.08…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 18:27:09 +1300

The intent of evading capture isn't intent to kill, or intent to wound. If you want to keep murder elegant, you have to avoid lumping other bad things in with it.

BenWilson

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:03:04 +1300

Why is having some objective measure of alcohol intake such a terrible thing?

I think Matthew is saying that it's not helpful because most people won't use it, and people who are drunk are less likely to be able to use it accurately. Both of those are true, but that…

Russell Brown

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:51:52 +1300

At 0.05 it’s still possible for most, but by 0.08 it’s incredibly difficult or impossible for most. I don’t much care what you think is safe for you, I care what’s safe for the majority. The evidence is also very, very firmly not in your favour.

I'm really not clear…

BenWilson

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 08:27:22 +1300

Do you know, from repeated testing, what 0.08 feels like to you?

No, hence my suggestion to use objective measures.

between 0.05 and 0.08 most people stop being able to make a wise decision about being capable of driving

If they base it on "how drunk they feel", something I've…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 07:01:30 +1300

under 80 but over 50

Over 30, actually.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 07:00:41 +1300

Yup, 0.08 is more impaired than stone cold sober, that’s for sure. Not sure entirely what you mean by “able to accurately assess risk”. When I’m at 0.08, I’m pretty much the same level of drunk as any other time I’m on 0.08, so knowing that I’m on 0.08 is…

Martin Lindberg

Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:18:01 +1300

A colleague had to stop driving as he tended to pass out from coughing-fits due to adult whooping cough. So there is that.

BenWilson

Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:10:57 +1300

In a risk averse society, people with coughs shouldn't be driving.

Sacha

Tue, 26 Feb 2013 10:57:28 +1300

the limit is effectively zero in Sweden

so effectively, they have warnings about not driving on their cough medicine bottles.

Bart Janssen

Tue, 26 Feb 2013 09:51:53 +1300

that is if you drink regularly the liver will produce more enzyme to process the toxin

I should note that even with the liver's amazing ability to process toxins, regular stress by alcohol will produce permanennt damage to the liver that it will never recover from.

Bart Janssen

Tue, 26 Feb 2013 09:48:48 +1300

The way he had it explained was via the metaphor of a bathtub. People’s bathtubs fill up at different rates (ie: alcohol enters the bloodstream at different rates) but everyone’s drains at roughly the same rate – about one standard drink an hour.

Of course it's even more complicated than…

Jackie Clark

Tue, 26 Feb 2013 06:57:46 +1300

My core belief: you shouldn't get in a car if you've been drinking. Or drugging. Lord knows, it's hard enough to drive well when you're sober. And there's enough erratic drivers on the roads already.

DexterX

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 23:36:32 +1300

Both of these incidents are disturbing – the Taupo assault shook me – I feel for the guy – serious pelvic injuries and a broken collar bone.

The roads are out there to be shared – like so much of everything.

Lilith __

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 21:19:08 +1300

Back to cyclists and road rage, this sort of thing is really horrifying.

ETA: and this sort of thing, too. A truckie swerving at cyclists? Gotta wonder what’s wrong with people like that.

BenWilson

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:58:03 +1300

I once got stopped at a checkpoint outside a restaurant after having drunk a whole bottle of wine. I had judged I was probably OK based on my size, the length of time, and having eaten a large meal, but thought it would be a close run thing. I was…

BenWilson

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:53:40 +1300

but everyone's drains at roughly the same rate — about one standard drink an hour.

Is that correct? From the Wiki article on BAC I referenced above, it suggests that the drain rate is not constant across all people, it's proportional. So your BAC drops 0.01% every 40 mins. For…

BenWilson

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:26:53 +1300

You would, however, be so drunk that your ability to accurately assess risk is significantly diminished.

Yup, 0.08 is more impaired than stone cold sober, that's for sure. Not sure entirely what you mean by "able to accurately assess risk". When I'm at 0.08, I'm pretty much the same level…

Russell Brown

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 18:29:55 +1300

I add a slightly different metric that a lawyer friend of mine picked up at a seminar on drink-drive laws.

The way he had it explained was via the metaphor of a bathtub. People's bathtubs fill up at different rates (ie: alcohol enters the bloodstream at different rates) but everyone's…

Martin Lindberg

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:48:19 +1300

‘zero tolerance’ may be a form of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

True, but laws are aspirational in the sense that they aspire to change a behaviour that is a problem. One reason that the limit is effectively zero in Sweden is that drunk driving was…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:35:37 +1300

But I don’t think I’d be so drunk that I couldn’t count, which would be the main way of assessing whether I was legal or not.

You would, however, be so drunk that your ability to accurately assess risk is significantly diminished. You might not use "I don't feel that…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:31:32 +1300

Of course, someone fleeing police may not have any intent of injuring anyone, so treating that as murder kinda mucks up the rest of your position around intent.

Exercising force with the intent of evading lawful capture is generally treated more seriously than the use of the same force in…

BenWilson

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:13:55 +1300

Yes, although this graphic suggests that it's worth taking care about making assumptions of strong correlation between BAC limits and accident statistics. Russia and Hungary suddenly stop looking quite so sweet. Which is not to say that alcohol isn't a big factor in their high accident rates (Hungary's is especially…

Martin Lindberg

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:47:35 +1300

I guess the 0.08% limit could be seen in context with the limits in the rest of Europe. Only the U.K. has a limit that high.

BenWilson

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:47:31 +1300

If your host is pouring drinks for you, how do you monitor the alcohol content accurately?

If it's spirits, it's a lot more dicking around, for sure, you have to measure the actual spirits used. But for beer and wine, the actual amount is pretty indicative, and you can measure…

Stewart

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:25:49 +1300

Yeah, but that's waffly shite really. (Not your post, but the fact that it is so imprecise and not reliable as a guide.) If your host is pouring drinks for you, how do you monitor the alcohol content accurately?
How much did I eat & how long ago and how much…

BenWilson

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:16:04 +1300

The old "two drinks in the first hour and one every hour thereafter" is pretty safe for most of the population, if followed correctly*. Small people (as in, less than 45 kg) will be on or slightly over the limit, and should be more conservative (drop one of the drinks?),…

Stewart

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:44:44 +1300

People not being able to accurately measure their blood (or breath) alcohol levels makes it difficult for them to make an informed decision around driving capability and/or legality.
There is a degree of variability in the succeptibility of individuals to alcohol and it seems naive to rely on the general…

BenWilson

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 00:32:08 +1300

By the time you’re at 0.8 you’re well past the point of being capable of deciding if you’re safe to drive.

It's quite high, for sure. For me, that's 5 cans of beer in one hour based on my weight. But I don't think I'd be so drunk that I…

Matthew Poole

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:32:01 +1300

If on the other hand, you go out, fully intending to get a ride home with a sober driver… and then, your capacity to evaluate your own condition becomes impaired through use of substances

This is one of the big issues with NZ having a blood alcohol level of 0.8.…

FletcherB

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 17:35:52 +1300

I can’t see that driving recklessly or driving impaired is any different – it is so incredilbly dangerous – the end result for the deceased is the same

Driving impaired is an interesting one... if you intend to drive impaired, before you are impaired... then your tenet holds true... If…

BenWilson

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:14:43 +1300

Of course, someone fleeing police may not have any intent of injuring anyone, so treating that as murder kinda mucks up the rest of your position around intent.

Yes, I don't think there's anything wrong with there being a number of positions between accident and murder. Nor with murder having…

Keir Leslie

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 13:41:47 +1300

Of course, someone fleeing police may not have any intent of injuring anyone, so treating that as murder kinda mucks up the rest of your position around intent.

Also in general in NZ we try to avoid objective recklessness.

Sacha

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 13:02:44 +1300

firing a rifle at a house

or through a toilet door, perhaps

DexterX

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 12:40:55 +1300

an intent to do something so incredibly dangerous that a reasonable person ought to expect harm to result

I can't see that driving recklessly or driving impaired is any different – it is so incredilbly dangerous – the end result for the deceased is the same – regardless of the…

Matthew Poole

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:42:07 +1300

The thing that both you and Chris have missed is that murder requires an intent to do harm, or at least an intent to do something so incredibly dangerous that a reasonable person ought to expect harm to result: firing a rifle at a house where people were known to…

Lilith __

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:37:09 +1300

There was a case in Chch where a man was charged with and convicted of murder for intentionally hitting people with his car. This is rare, and very different from merely having an accident through careless or reckless behaviour.

DexterX

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:59:49 +1300

Intentionally stabbing someone is likely to kill them, so if they die it can still count as murder, even if you weren't trying to kill them.

The above is realted to this – from Graeme.

DexterX

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:42:03 +1300

Intentionally driving recklessly, drunk or impaired is likely to kill someone – the instance of a person driving recklessly, drunk or impaired and killing someone should be “Vehicular Murder” in my view.

I can’t understand how acting in a deliberate manner, say getting drunk, or impaired, and driving a car,…

Keir Leslie

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 20:47:05 +1300

Recklessness doesn’t really involve “caring” (or not) about a result. Subjective recklessness is knowledge that if you do x, then y may well happen, and doing x anyway. You might care very deeply that y not happen, but you’re still reckless.

In the UK, objective recklessness – funnily enough -…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 14:26:48 +1300

intent to cause such serious injury that death was likely and the attacker didn’t care if the victim lived or died.

Isn’t this exactly what happens in the case of someone speeding? Undertaking dangerous moves?

What Graeme said. The injury cannot be unintentional. If you speed down a residential street…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 14:10:13 +1300

surely firing a gun multiple times through a toilet door at a human is so likely to cause death as to constitute murder?

In New Zealand, yes. In South Africa, not necessarily. NZ does not accept an automatic right to use firearms in self defence in the absence of an…

FletcherB

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:07:36 +1300

Intentionally stabbing someone is likely to kill them, so if they die it can still count as murder, even if you weren’t trying to kill them.

Which seems somewhat similar to a certain south-african sports star's current predicament... even if you didn't realise you were shooting your girlfriend (which, obviously,…

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:03:12 +1300

Isn’t this exactly what happens in the case of someone speeding?

No. People speed all the time without killing someone. Death is not likely from speeding, nor is it likely from many many dangerous driving actions.

This bit covers occasions where someone is stabbed, but actually (and honestly) the person…

Christopher Dempsey

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:39:49 +1300

intent to cause such serious injury that death was likely and the attacker didn’t care if the victim lived or died.

Isn't this exactly what happens in the case of someone speeding? Undertaking dangerous moves?

Ross Mason

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 13:19:21 +1300

just a sample

Ouch!!!!

Graeme Edgeler

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 13:14:47 +1300

The video below is just a sample of what I’ve experienced over the past 6 months.

Just put it in as a full youtube link. No need for embed code or square brackets or anything like that.

Felix Marwick

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:50:45 +1300

I think part of the angst/hostility on the part of cyclists is largely due to the fact that if there is an accident they either die or get seriously hurt. From personal experience I can say that having regular near misses on the commute does raise the blood pressure toa…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:47:23 +1300

Would you recommend consistency in the law of manslaughter/murder so that carelessness in any area is treated as culpable homicide?
e.g:
– spilling liquid on the floor so a person slips and bangs their head, terminally
– somebody falls over in a mosh pit and suffers a fatal head injury…

BenWilson

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:37:03 +1300

Manslaughter, maybe, but murder just wouldn't pass the test of what's fair consequence for the action.

Yup. Especially since actually deliberately murdering people with a car is quite possible.

We do have a distinction already between "careless or inconsiderate" and "careless or reckless", and the potential sentence for the latter…

BenWilson

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:27:11 +1300

Cars have what, 130 horses? 180 horses? At any rate a lot of horses

Anywhere from 50 to 500. Average is probably around 130 here, but a souped up boy racer can easily push 300 in a car costing less than 7 grand. Older people get the same in new…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:09:21 +1300

I would argue for a shift in criminal liability from ‘carelessness causing death’ (or whatever the charge is) when a car/truck hits a cyclist or pedestrian to ‘murder’

Murder is a big jump. Massive. Murder requires intent to kill or, failing that, intent to cause such serious injury that death…

Christopher Dempsey

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:48:09 +1300

Speaking personally,

The problem is that our whole discourse surrounding rights, liberties, and privileges is so confused it’s difficult to tell them apart in everyday usage.

I have the liberty to move across this wonderful city/island of ours. I have been granted the privilege to use a motor vehicle in…

DexterX

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 07:54:49 +1300

Is it cars or man which is man's curse upon himself – I can't tell for sure.

The Monkey light is the answer – last night as I pulled out of the drive – about 9.30 PM a cycle whizzed past – he had front and tail lights, reflectors and…

Caleb D'Anvers

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 00:17:41 +1300

I don't think that's quite correct. What you're talking about there are "liberties," much weaker things than rights. Rights, on the other hand, are given to you by specific pieces of legislation (or under case law), that someone else has a duty to uphold.

The problem is that our whole…

JackElder

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 22:46:33 +1300

In the 10 or so years I’ve been doing it, I reckon I’ve had definitely malicious behaviour – dodgy driving, shouting, thrown things, what have you – about once a year on average.

This dovetails with my experience, both cycling here and the UK.

Also highly visible would be a…

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:42:50 +1300

Where does safety end, really? Licenses? Kevlar elbow, ankle and kneepads? Reinforced jackets?

I have friends who simply will not put a helmet on their toddler who is learning to walk. I should report them to the authorities.

BenWilson

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:34:03 +1300

Also highly visible would be a high wattage flashing moving light on the helmet. Even more visible, would be to wrap the entire bike in reflective tape, and put lights on every spoke. Front torches could be mandated to a certain minimum wattage (I suggest around 50 watts, visually similar…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:30:05 +1300

What happened was that someone in the “group” would move out to the outside lane, sit on 80k and cruise to the next set of lights. Talk about mass education!!!

Now that I like. And I do precisely that (adjusted for appropriate speed limit), or, on those beautiful expressways with…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:26:52 +1300

In my experience, it IS the worst, i.e. I have never felt more unsafe anywhere else.

Alright, fair enough. But I don't find that particularly useful for figuring out what's wrong and how to fix it. Hard evidence strikes me as being a lot more useful than anecdata.

Given Mali…

Islander

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 20:26:38 +1300

Yesss!
As a visually disabled person (I am so totally qualified to drive!)* I can quantify that reflective – and, especially ‘flashing reflectable aids’ are what non-car-users need.

One of my mates is a heavy horse afficinionado: he not only has large vehichles before & aft of his wonderful horses –…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 20:04:51 +1300

Supporting the suggestion discussed here already, optometrists are calling for cyclists to use ankle and knee reflective bands because it’s more obviously a person than a static vest.

Stephen Judd

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 19:15:45 +1300

I ride for transport not pleasure most days. Probably drive the car 2-3 times a week, mostly longer trips on weekends.

In the 10 or so years I've been doing it, I reckon I've had definitely malicious behaviour — dodgy driving, shouting, thrown things, what have you — about once…

Ross Mason

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:40:25 +1300

I remember the "group therapy" that occured when Carlos Daze and 80km/h was introduced. The early morning "rush" quickly quietened the speedy racers who tended to lane jump (still a biggie) or raced to get behind the queue up the road. What happened was that someone in the "group" would…

Aidan

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:30:46 +1300

Which sort of makes his point. People identifying with a group and seeing "the others" getting away with something something grumble mumble.

The point of that article was that this might well be normal human behaviour, and by acknowledging it maybe we can do something about it.

RaggedJoe

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:29:20 +1300

We all have our own experiences. I drive in Europe and USA often once a year. Driving, can be good or bad. I generally find NZ pretty good in comparison, not great, but then neither is Naples.

RaggedJoe

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:26:54 +1300

PS
On visibility, my cycling jerseys are chosen purely on being seen at a distance, dayglo yellow in preference, fashion and brand has no value. I also drive my car with the lights on 24/7. Who doesn't want to be seen easily? Cycling in black? Just plain stupid sorry.

I…

Maz

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:24:16 +1300

In my experience, it IS the worst, i.e. I have never felt more unsafe anywhere else.
That doens't make NZ the worst in the world, as I have not been to China, Bulgaria, Timbuktu and many other places.
Nowhere else have a been deliberately swerved at, cursed at, told to…

BenWilson

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:16:05 +1300

What percentage of car drivers is actually enraged by cyclists, though?

I bet it's roughly the same percentage as the number who are enraged by practically everything they don't like on the road. Just from observation over my life of the comments of angry drivers, it's a mindset, something that…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:10:41 +1300

I think that article could be changed to "why cyclists hate drivers" with just a couple of edits:
Then along come drivers, innocently following what they see as the rules of the road, but doing things that cyclists can't: staying warm and dry, not getting sweaty, listening to the radio,…

Islander

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:53:34 +1300

PA might not be a representative sample, but try asking rellies or workmates about cyclists.

I dont have workmates (writers are solitary insects) but discussions about cyclists
have come up between self & family, neighbours & friends. Some locals dislike the tour-gangs, the groups of cyclists that are offloaded from a van…

RaggedJoe

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:32:09 +1300

I agree, a lot of anger out there. And often related to cyclists "cheating". Running red lights, undertaking on the left, weaving through lanes. Second biggest complaint, bunching up on rural roads. Just people I talk to, all bent of shape about cyclists and the perception that anyone on a…

Aidan

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:31:41 +1300

80% of cycle/car accidents the fault of the car, in Adelaide anyway:

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/four-in-every-five-crashes-between-cars-and-bicycles-caused-by-driver-of-car/story-e6frea83-1226581475412

Take a look a the comment thread to get a feeling of just how much love is lost between cyclists and motorists.

Aidan

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:14:44 +1300

PA might not be a representative sample, but try asking rellies or workmates about cyclists. I reckon you'll be surprised at the level of animosity, I know I was.

I wear high viz all the time on my commute, mainly because I bought those shirts the tradesmen wear, they are…

BenWilson

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:14:00 +1300

Which is exactly how it's been since at least the early 1980s.

OK, so GDL came in in 1987. There's a mismatch with my memory here, as I turned 15 in 1986 and was highly motivated to get a license, because I had to commute on 2 buses to school…

Danielle

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:55:51 +1300

What percentage of car drivers is actually enraged by cyclists, though? I haven’t ridden a bicycle for about twenty years, but it has pretty much NEVER occurred to me to be enraged by a cyclist. Sum total of my thoughts about cyclists on the road is “oh, there’s a cyclist.…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:52:47 +1300

The "right or privilege" argument doesn't just relate to s 18 (1) of BORA (right of free movement) but goes further back, to s.29 of Magna Carta, which established the rule of law. Because of that, people have a "right" to do *anything*, but that right can be curtailed or…

Aidan

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:45:13 +1300

This is an interesting take on why motorists seem to dislike cyclists to an irrational degree

http://mindhacks.com/2013/02/18/bbc-column-why-cyclists-enrage-car-drivers/

It does seem to align with many of the complaints I have seen motorists make about cyclists. If true, then an education campaign and social pressure to increase goodwill and understanding might well…

BenWilson

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:34:54 +1300

You want evidence, Ben? I find myself being tailgated more by late-model cars, and a lot of the worst failure to use indicators is also by late-model cars. Young drivers mostly can’t afford to own such things, and before you go off down the “it’s the parents’ car” track, I…

Lilith __

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:25:15 +1300

But you’re saying that anyone who qualified before the current testing regime is a bad driver. That’s just nonsense, and that’s what we want you to show some evidence for.

Show me where I said that. Please. A direct quote. You want to talk about misconstruing someone’s words, you’ve damned…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:19:00 +1300

But you’re saying that anyone who qualified before the current testing regime is a bad driver. That’s just nonsense, and that’s what we want you to show some evidence for.

Show me where I said that. Please. A direct quote. You want to talk about misconstruing someone's words, you've damned…

Islander

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:17:47 +1300

We need less anger and agression on the road, not more.

Tautoko to the max Lilith-

Lilith __

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:09:45 +1300

I haven’t just made this shit up. I’ve paid attention to years of debates about how to try and reduce our youth road toll.

Nobody is disagreeing that better training and stricter testing for new drivers is a good idea.

But you’re saying that anyone who qualified before the current…

Terry Baucher

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:56:23 +1300

We're now told this was just a "joke" but what I find dispiriting is that 1400 people like this on Facebook (double the number since noon on Tuesday when I last looked). Obviously a "joke" with broad appeal

Terry Baucher

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:51:56 +1300

Having read the Coroner's report (thanks Russell) it's sad that the "common sense" comment has drowned out the rest of the report which was pretty thorough. I'm sure someone else has already said this but I would like to know why he didn't make any recommendations about sideguards for trucks…

Terry Baucher

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:20:56 +1300

I feature as one of the statistics in the 2011 report. 22 months ago I was time-trialling towards the city on a Saturday morning at 7.30 when I noticed a car u-turn about 200 metres in front of me (the driver later said she turned into a side road and…

Terry Baucher

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:02:52 +1300

Someone earlier said that NZ would not be in the top 100 most shithouse countries for driving. That's probably correct if we're looking at the world in total. However, by comparison with those countries we do measure ourselves against then we're top ten/top five.

The NZTA has finally got around…

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:52:44 +1300

I'm not too worried about driver education. Some people will always be terrible drivers regardless of training. Better roads with separated cycle-lanes is really the only thing that will make a significant difference to cycling safety.

Stewart

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:36:37 +1300

You seem to have got my posts mixed up with someone else's there, Matthew.

I have not got hung up on who crashes more – check my posts & see if I have used the word 'crash' at all...

There was never a licence giveaway on cornflakes packets.

You seem to…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:22:46 +1300

No Maz, no sentimental claptrap, no defensiveness, no desire to stop any necessary change. Just asking some, including yourself, to calm down. NZ is not the worst in the world. It's not the best, either, and there's plenty to fix, but you're not going to get things fixed by pretending…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:06:23 +1300

Right, evidence.

This one where a significant association between poor parental driving habits and the driving habits of their newly-licensed adolescents was observed.

The reports on how much stricter testing has become are numerous, but a couple are here and here. Academic research on the immediate and on-going effect that the…

Kyle Matthews

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:49:20 +1300

I disagree with the normal meaning attributed to that phrase. It’s a purely voluntary payment made in exchange for rule-breaking. You could campaign for the law to be changed, you could obey the law, or you could pay the fine. All are acceptable, and to suggest that enforcement is purely…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:31:03 +1300

I'll die too, one day. My point is that there's a huge focus on getting new drivers ready to be drivers, including a significant increase in the focus on their adherence to "polite" driving behaviour, but it's going to be decades before everyone who wasn't subjected to the same level…

Lilith __

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:27:32 +1300

This whole discussion came about through discourse about drivers who don’t share the road nicely with others.

No, it came about because someone made something up that sounded good to him but which he had no evidence for.
Which is what you have been doing this whole thread.
If you've…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:26:57 +1300

Your reactions are pretty far out there, Stewart. Mortally offended seemed an appropriate phrase. You've all got hung up on who crashes more, using that as a yardstick for who's better at being courteous and following conventions such as proper use of indicators. Your response to my cornflake pack quip…

Danielle

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:22:58 +1300

I think possibly what’s happening is that your underlying “don’t worry, the oldies are going to die and that will be awesome for cyclists!” implication is a little… eugenicist for our tastes. ;)

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:20:30 +1300

FFS. Best and best-behaved are not the same thing. This whole discussion came about through discourse about drivers who don't share the road nicely with others. Somehow that has now become about crash statistics and whether older drivers are better at sharing the road than young drivers purely because they…

Stewart

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:06:02 +1300

Now we're "all mortally offended"? Jeez, you don't half like the deep end! You should try not to be so touchy.

Lilith __

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:05:16 +1300

Matthew, you are saying that the people who crash most (young ppl) are actually the best drivers? And that older drivers behave badly on the road but magically don't crash?

You have worked up a nice theory that has no actual connection with reality.

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 10:03:01 +1300

“driving licence testing standards have improved over time”

Over the last decade, pretty much. Before that, it was a joke. For my generation it was pass a 30-question multiple-guess scratch quiz (only 20 possible layouts, which could all be bought from BP and then handed around your friends with twink…

Stewart

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 09:23:14 +1300

there are literally millions of drivers in this country whose sum level of driver behaviour testing was that they managed to behave themselves for 15 minutes while a retired traffic cop was in the passenger seat.

"literally millions"?
"driver behaviour testing"??
"retired traffic cop"???

I got my licence in 1970…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 09:11:35 +1300

If I don’t have a license, then my freedom of movement by driving a vehicle will be immediately curtailed. Parliament will back them up.

The Courts will back them up. Parliament gave them the power to curtail your movement in the first place.

Matthew Poole

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 09:09:18 +1300

young drivers who have just graduated to their restricted licence are in the most danger. These are the people who have just passed all their tests.

No, they haven’t passed all their tests. They’ve passed two of three, one of which was theory, and they’ve still got 12-18 months before…

Maz

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 08:24:09 +1300

With all due respect, that Fred Dagg thing is the kind of sentimental claptrap that keeps anything from ever being done, from ever changing for the better.
It also seems to be the standard response to anyone who criticizes anything Kiwi.
There's a lot of things that bug me about…

BenWilson

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 01:15:02 +1300

But that doesn't matter, it's a right that exists and the policeman's bound to respect, and Parliament's bound to acknowledge.

If I don't have a license, then my freedom of movement by driving a vehicle will be immediately curtailed. Parliament will back them up.

James Littlewood*

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 00:30:04 +1300

In comparison to me, at an older age.

To sound like your great uncle who smoked all his life and died of toe-nail cancer at the age of 103, I recall I rode a bike nearly every day 5 miles each way to high school and back, overtaking cars down…

James Littlewood*

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 00:25:44 +1300

So when my family and I do the Hendo bike trail to the Corbans Arts Centre, no helmets. It's a flat-to-gently undulating concrete path through green fields and scultpures. And my oldest kid can barely ride as it is. Falls off all the time, and always at <5km/h. Scabby knees, like any respectable 8 year old.

James Littlewood*

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 00:18:13 +1300

Coming in a bit late to this. So, pologies if already covered.

I believe there is evidence to suggest that an accident without a helmet is more likely to cause brain pain. But also, that the wearing of a helmet is associated with higher incidence of an accident.

Kinda like…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:41:43 +1300

But that doesn't matter, it's a right that exists and the policeman's bound to respect, and Parliament's bound to acknowledge.

Lilith __

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:36:00 +1300

Matthew, the public-service ads tell us that young drivers who have just graduated to their restricted licence are in the most danger. These are the people who have just passed all their tests.
If you've got something against older drivers, please back it up with something other than anecdata, hearsay…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:34:47 +1300

s 18 (1) of the Bill of Rights Act does provide for one though

I don't have to show a policeman that at a checkpoint. Just my license.

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:34:13 +1300

Crash stats don't tell you who's more obnoxious, they just tell you who's driving beyond their capability.

Crashing into people is at the upper end of the obnoxious scale, IMHO.

I just said they have bad driving habits because they largely learned from their family and friends and the level…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:33:01 +1300

Meh. I don’t buy that I have a right to freedom of movement in the first place

s 18 (1) of the Bill of Rights Act does provide for one though.

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:17:52 +1300

A driver’s licence is proof that the state has given you permission to use a motor vehicle in the exercise of your right to freedom of movement.

Meh. I don't buy that I have a right to freedom of movement in the first place, from which other kinds of movement…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:11:50 +1300

You actually went out of your way to say that older drivers are crap, on a theoretical argument based on changes in driver training and testing.

I said that they're under-trained and under-tested, and that's absolutely true all the way through to people who got their licences within about the…

Caleb D'Anvers

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:03:34 +1300

Surely a license to drive is weaker than a "right to drive"? Does someone out there have a corresponding duty to allow you to drive? Can you take them to Court if they don't have a fashionable Vehicle of Your Choice lined up at the gate for you any time…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:58:43 +1300

When they indicate poorly, tailgate, and generally drive in a manner that shows a disdain for the law and their other road users, why should I cut them slack just because they've got more time behind the wheel?

Do you have the slightest evidence that these behaviors are more prevalent…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:55:42 +1300

A driver’s licence is proof that the state has given you permission to use a motor vehicle in the exercise of your right to freedom of movement. The state also reserves the right to, with no notice, revoke that licence for up to 28 days, at the roadside, because you…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:53:53 +1300

Having driven and or cycled in Europe, Asia, South America, North America, Australia and NZ I can safely say that standards here are the worst I’ve seen.

I find this quite amusing. It's amazing how expats all over the world tend to say such similar things about their host country.…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:53:08 +1300

it’s not entirely crazy to argue that restrictions on the right to drive a car are therefore only justified to the extent necessary etc

It may not be entirely crazy, but it does pretend that driving a car is an activity that carries negligible risk to the driver, others in…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:51:55 +1300

There's probably not a right to drive a car

Lets get into the ontology of it! Wicked! While that's getting sorted out (this may take a few hundred years), my driver's license stands in place of my right to drive. Barring any other excuse to stop me, a police officer…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:43:45 +1300

So ragging out anyone older than 30 on account of the poor standard of their training is a wee bit one-sided. They’re likely to have spent tens of thousands more hours at the wheel than you.

a) I'm older than 30.
b) I don't care how much time they've spent…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 20:59:59 +1300

There's probably not a right to drive a car but there's definitely a right to freedom of movement and it's not entirely crazy to argue that restrictions on the right to drive a car are therefore only justified to the extent necessary etc. Even if you don't go that far…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 20:54:55 +1300

It's worth noting that, like most activities, one of the things that makes you better at driving is doing more and more of it. So ragging out anyone older than 30 on account of the poor standard of their training is a wee bit one-sided. They're likely to have spent…

Islander

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 20:25:02 +1300

That’s a pretty major risk factor, though, and it’s hardly something that applies to all drivers.
True.
But I’d also point out that quite a few people have *"strokes which are not medically confirmed.” If people arnt having yearly check-ups, these will almost certainly be unrecorded. And any brain-damage also…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 20:11:56 +1300

An e.g = if you’d had a stroke, you certainly were

That's a pretty major risk factor, though, and it's hardly something that applies to all drivers.

Felix Marwick

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:35:13 +1300

I get it now. You're referring to your Australian experiences. I'm happy to say the police here (or at least the ones I've dealt with) have been very helpful.

My score so far, since commuting with a camera for the past seven months, is one driver done for failing to…

Lilith __

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:26:38 +1300

Wow, if only it were compulsory for all road users to be forbidden high horses and compelled to be generous to each other....

Islander

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:21:09 +1300

the time that was the level of testing, they weren’t.

An e.g = if you'd had a stroke, you certainly were

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:15:13 +1300

In any case, you might think driving is a privilege to be conferred ona grateful subject, but I suspect that a majority of NZers consider it a right

Whether they consider it a right or not is irrelevant, it is clearly a privilege because the state confers, by way of…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:10:16 +1300

And that was all the testing they were ever likely to go through in their whole lives.

Wrongo.
Age-related and medical certification AND driving tests have been around for quite a long time here in ANZ.

At the time that was the level of testing, they weren't.

Islander

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:54:40 +1300

Interesting....

Islander

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:54:01 +1300

In any case, you might think driving is a privilege to be conferred ona grateful subject, but I suspect that a majority of NZers consider it a right, and until you replace the voting system by some system with votes proportionate to the amount of lycra you own, it’ll stay…

Maz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:53:01 +1300

Nope Islander, I'm very much just one person. So just for the record, I have nothing to do with Moz, nor have I any clue who he/she is.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:47:57 +1300

The assumption is that, coming from a country with a comparable system of driver testing like Denmark, a driver has already demonstrated competence and just needs to understand what's different about NZ.

I didn't get the question:
__ Most NZ roadusers, whatever the vehicle are:
1. Dicks
2. Anally retentive…

Islander

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:26:28 +1300

And that was all the testing they were ever likely to go through in their whole lives.

Wrongo.
Age-related and medical certification AND driving tests have been around for quite a long time here in ANZ.

Interesting. Moz now = Maz....

Maz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:17:20 +1300

The point was surely that it was ridiculously easy to get a license, not that all older drivers are bad. Come on!
When I converted my Danish license 12 years ago, I had to sit a written test. The very friendly AA lady pointed out the 4 sheets of test…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:16:57 +1300

Cornflakes packet, eh? Bet you can’t find a link to support that gem.

Link? I don't need a link. I know people who got their licences then. If they had to do more than drive around the block the testing officer was having a bad day. And that was all…

Stewart

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:07:25 +1300

People only a very few years older than me (I'm early 30s) could get a licence by driving to the end of the road, doing a three-point turn, and then safely depositing the testing officer back at the office. Not too much before those onerous requirements came into force people…

Islander

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:39:30 +1300

Police. Do it. And complain to the boss.

Tautoko.

That is one angry-as-in-unthinking driver who needs to be taken off the road-

Just incidentally, I frequently travel between the West Coast & Canterbury/Otago sides of the island. There are mind-numbinglyBAD instances
of driving – most frequently by rental-car users (I wont…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:34:08 +1300

Also, I think I should tell a balancing anecdote from a few weeks ago.

I was biking along Greers Road in Christchurch, heading towards Harewood Road, and ahead of me at a side street to my left, a car full of dodgy looking youths was looking for a gap to…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:28:25 +1300

the driver responded by accelerating out into the oncoming lane to pass me, then braking to a halt while fishtailing me into the kerb.

Police. Do it. And complain to the boss.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:17:36 +1300

Our standard of driver education is woeful.

Our driver education could be better sure. But most of what I see on the roads is just people who either are so impatient they won't obey the rules or just don't care. They do actually know what a no U-turn sign means,…

Islander

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:17:08 +1300

And I also said that *my* family have employed trained driving instructors since the 1960s-
because we were well aware that some of the older generations werent all that flash when it came to driving.

We also pay trained people to assess our driving when we get to 65, 70,…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:04:17 +1300

He now says it’s a joke, and that cyclists need to have a better sense of humour.

Because it's just totally hilarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrious when a cager call for open warfare on people whose protection is their lightweight clothing and hopefully a helmet, especially when those people have been killed so often…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:01:48 +1300

But you’d be stupid not to

You said it, not us. And the vast majority of people who learned to drive prior to National's first round of licensing changes are, according to you, stupid, because as I just said above there's a predominate attitude in this country that driving is…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:58:50 +1300

Maybe one reason is that you don’t have to take driving lessons from a professional. If your dad/mum/uncle Ted/friend don’t know how to drive, how can they teach you?

But they do know how to drive. They learned from their Uncle Ted, who learned from his Uncle Ted, and his…

Lilith __

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:43:02 +1300

To all those with angry anecdotes who are making angry generalisations about drivers, or cyclists: we've all had bad experiences on the road. But getting angry at a whole group of people because a few of them pissed you off? That just makes everybody madder.

Isn't agression one of the…

Islander

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:33:02 +1300

Maybe one reason is that you don’t have to take driving lessons from a professional
But you’d be stupid not to – my driving instructor -waaay back in 1962 – was a retired traffic cop. This has been the pattern in my family, from my generation on-

Maz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:07:45 +1300

Just saw this. Sadly a not-atypical attitude, but rather a higher profile on the part of the utterer. I hope it costs his company some business.

He now says it's a joke, and that cyclists need to have a better sense of humour.
We all need a better sense of…

Maz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:05:38 +1300

"I’m sick of the bitching and moaning about NZ’s driving culture. You’re basically saying that most people in NZ are uneducated, uncaring fuckwits. And we aren’t."

"Me too.
There is a road problem and there is – big fat elephant- people from overseas wreaking mayhem (O! not mentioned much eh?)…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:03:57 +1300

Just saw this. Sadly a not-atypical attitude, but rather a higher profile on the part of the utterer. I hope it costs his company some business.

Moz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:52:13 +1300

deleted discussion of moderation

Moz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:49:16 +1300

I readily admit that many drivers are poor at adhering to the road rules, but perhaps a bit of enforcement of the rules rather than just revenue-gathering by the police might help to improve standards?

I disagree with the normal meaning attributed to that phrase. It's a purely voluntary payment…

Russell Brown

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:46:30 +1300

Do you disagree with me, or you don’t like my tone? It sounds as though you don’t like my tone. Which is unhelpful. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument

What’s unhelpful in my view as moderator is you invoking “tone argument” as a response to criticism of the content of your speech. I had no…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:50:26 +1300

I took a trip to get some milk last night, no hi-viz or helmet in this case, the shop is only 100m down the road. It was shut. I went a little further on to the next shop, also closed. Realized the next one was 2km down the road, but…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:40:01 +1300

where if I take the lane I'm grinding uphill with angry motorists behind me, and if I don't I'm squeezed viciously against the curb or parked cars because the road is not quite wide enough for a bike and a car.

If that's the situation, I'll very often consider taking…

Stewart

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:16:41 +1300

Ranting per se is fine, but tarring 99% of motorists with a broad brush is just crap, especially when you consider that the majority of cyclists posting here are also motorists/drivers on some occasions.

I readily admit that many drivers are poor at adhering to the road rules, but perhaps…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:58:45 +1300

I got abused by a motorist this morning for having the temerity to go straight ahead through an intersection where the signals were in my favour while he was wanting to take advantage of a Give Way (not even "free"!) left turn. Bairds/GSR intersection for the curious; I was heading…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:55:27 +1300

Most of us in here aren't in Australia, we're in NZ. The attitudes of the police here are different, the rules of acceptable evidence are different.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:50:21 +1300

And very, very few people cycle-commute 20km daily. Most actual NZ cycle commutes are a fraction of that, if only because riding 10km on city streets at commuter hour takes a fair bit of time.

Interesting. I guess being a recreational cyclist my concepts of what's a "normal" distance are…

Moz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:43:52 +1300

plod
See my guess is that if you refer to them that way they are going to be significantly less interested in helping you. If you think about them in those terms it will show up in your body language, even if you are verbally polite.

It's an earned (lack…

Moz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:42:55 +1300

Interesting incident this morning on the way to work. I stopped at a red light, and was promptly honked at by the motorist behind me. They wanted to jump the red to make a left turn, and did as soon as I shifted my bike out of their way. That's…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:41:18 +1300

this little rant has debased all your previous posts on this thread for me

Nothing wrong with a little rant every now and then.

While I agree that Moz's tone is harsh, his point is valid. Spend 15 minutes watching traffic at the Mt Albert rd Dominion rd intersection and…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:37:26 +1300

plod

See my guess is that if you refer to them that way they are going to be significantly less interested in helping you. If you think about them in those terms it will show up in your body language, even if you are verbally polite.

Moz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:31:40 +1300

"camera footage will generally be regarded as irrelevant"
I haven't found that to be the case at all. In fact I've used it twice successfully

Prosecution or getting a complaint accepted?

My experience, and that of friends in Melbun and Sydney, is that plod will often refuse to look at…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:30:38 +1300

see if I can do Mt Albert, Mt Roskill, Big King, One Tree Hill and Mt Eden

When my knees were younger there was a run that included Mt Albert, Mt Roskill, One Tree Hill and Mt Eden – the closest I got to it was a critical digestive system…

James

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:27:52 +1300

So on Monday, I was tailgated and honked at by one of Zap Pest Control's cars (licence number: EFR something), when free-wheeling down Pirie St, a steep-ish suburban wellington street and bus-route. When I responded with the cheery wave and call of 'good morning' that I reserve for these situations,…

Moz

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:26:12 +1300

@Moz, I am afraid you are in danger of outing yourself as a self-righteous cyclist with this tirade:

Do you disagree with me, or you don't like my tone? It sounds as though you don't like my tone. Which is unhelpful. http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument

I note you didn't quote the start of…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:25:34 +1300

Also thought I should note that having gravity on your side works well in your situation, since I presume you have a much harder time limit at the start of the day than the end, and being less sweaty in the morning is better? Unfortunately for Aucklanders, the reverse is…

Christopher Dempsey

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:21:58 +1300

My 'commute' is roughly around 5-10k /day (I don't have a 'fixed' workplace), and virtually 90% of my time is spent in the central city. Bikes are much faster any time of the day in this area. I find that I am faster than cars up to a distance of…

BenWilson

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:20:46 +1300

As the distance gets longer, the math starts to get dodgier; but in rush hour traffic, for anything up to around 10k, the bike's a clear winner in my view.

Yes, I'm not commuting during rush hour, and I live next to a motorway, so the car is a clear…

Richard Grevers

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:19:15 +1300

Which is why I was amazed when I went to get a WOF while the head-liner was removed from our car for reupholstery and was failed because of the exposed metal. Who knew that that 4mm thick bit of carboard and fabric had such incredible protective powers.

Christopher Dempsey

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:19:08 +1300

I keep meaning to pick a good day and see if I can do Mt Albert, Mt Roskill, Big King, One Tree Hill and Mt Eden (in that order, I figure) in one ride. It would be great to include Mangere in that, but bikes are verboten. Also, I can’t…

Stephen Judd

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:08:57 +1300

I have an 8km commute, 16 km a day. I ride at a pace that leaves me with plenty of wind and little sweat, usually in the range 18-24 kph.

Average time to work is 18 minutes in a car and 23 minutes on a bike — the car of…

Russell Brown

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:32:40 +1300

A few of us were musing about doing a Maunga ride – spend a day visiting all the maunga in the Auckland field to celebrate them.

I keep meaning to pick a good day and see if I can do Mt Albert, Mt Roskill, Big King, One Tree Hill and…

JackElder

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:12:10 +1300

Yup, time is my greatest barrier.

For me, time is one of the reasons to cycle to work.

I'm in Wellington. I used to live in Newlands and work in the CBD (10k trip, and I live on a big hill). Driving in peak traffic took about half an hour…