Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: What we learned yesterday about the cannabis referendum

nzlemming

Mon, 30 Oct 2017 18:21:06 +1300

Anyone else feel the recent spate of articles about the PM’s pay like this might be a little (cough splutter) blatantly sexist even for the current phallocentric tyrany*?

Precisely. I just point out that it's the same as Blinglish got, for the same job.

Rob Stowell

Mon, 30 Oct 2017 13:22:13 +1300

Anyone else feel the recent spate of articles about the PM’s pay like this might be a little (cough splutter) blatantly sexist even for the current phallocentric tyrany*?
*phrase lifted from the super-awesome ‘skeletal lamping’ – still one of the greatest albums of the millennium.

Rich of Observationz

Sun, 29 Oct 2017 16:30:42 +1300

US civil service, I thought. They have a set system of pay grades like military ranks.

(as opposed to agreeing with the SSC that because their department has a similar number of employees to Google, they should be paid accordingly).

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 27 Oct 2017 19:31:27 +1300

I’ve noticed even people in parliament using that unfortunate linkage between pay packages and quality of thought.

Sorry for the derail, but I'm genuinely mortified if that's how I came across. "Not speaking above my pay grade" is just an idiom — which IIRC, came from the US military --…

Carol Stewart

Fri, 27 Oct 2017 14:35:38 +1300

Yes, it's a fair point that not all referenda are the same. Handy summary here in Te Ara.

BenWilson

Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:54:28 +1300

Guess what, there’s always going to be people challenging the “legitimacy” of any Government and they’re always wrong

No there aren't, and no they aren't. I don't recall any such challenges to the legitimacy of the last government, nothing like what we've seen in the last few days. And sometimes…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 27 Oct 2017 11:24:08 +1300

That Bishopric Brian Tamaki ... must be really, really good!
Rumours that the special DVD of his investiture included a bonus bloopers section proved to be unfounded.

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 27 Oct 2017 10:58:38 +1300

That Bishopric Brian Tamaki seems to be paid really well (or at least revels in the trappings of wealth) – he must be really, really good!

Carol Stewart

Fri, 27 Oct 2017 09:12:44 +1300

Totally with you, Craig. Referenda are a crap way of making decisions, not least because it's well near impossible to capture the complexities of any given issue in a simple referendum question.

Craig Young

Fri, 27 Oct 2017 09:10:58 +1300

Well said, namesake. At some point, Parliament needs to repeal the wretched Citizens Initiated Referenda Act 1993, but for tactical reasons, it will have to be after Winston pops his clogs. Although a surprising number of godbots have suddenly realised its risks, given that Winston is now talking about a…

Craig Ranapia

Fri, 27 Oct 2017 08:29:27 +1300

On the bright side, if the population gets it right, it's much more of a mandate than a mere law change at the behest of a government whose legitimacy is (completely wrongfully) being challenged.

No, no and fucking no – pardon my French. Guess what, there's always going to be…

BenWilson

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 22:31:59 +1300

I’m just mindful of of the fact that we’ve had two select committee inquiries and a Law Commission review that have all come to roughly the same conclusion: cannabis law needs reforming. And because of the politics of drug reform, it never bloody happens.

Quite. I'd love it if the…

Tadhg Stopford

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 18:50:21 +1300

A referendum without education is pointless if we are aiming for best practice. Everyone needs to understand about their endogenous cannabinoid system (thank you Shane le Brun, for showing me the way), otherwise they literally will not understand what they are deciding on.
In fact, those writing the question won’t…

Ross Bell

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 16:44:42 +1300

It's worth highlighting that in Labour's justice manifesto it commited to replace the Misuse of Drugs Act (as per Law Commission).... we don't need to wait until 2020 for that.

Rob Stowell

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 15:39:02 +1300

This Kleiman fella sums it up beautifully. Can we just do what he says please?!

Craig Young

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 10:15:43 +1300

It just makes more strategic sense to me to fence medicinal cannabis off and then deal with recreational cannabis as a seperate issue. That appears to be what happened in the case of US state decriminalisation of first medicinal and then recreational cannabis. Note that I am not necessarily opposed…

Russell Brown

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:59:11 +1300

Impairment while driving is in the news here in Colorado fairly regularly, usually whenever some new statistic is released. They’re still figuring it out. There isn’t a reliable roadside test and even a blood test doesn’t necessarily indicate impairment since frequent users become highly tolerant of it.

It's really hard.…

Russell Brown

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:47:10 +1300

If this Government actually believes it is time for drug law reform then they should sit the fuck down, thrash out legislation and put it on the order paper with a full debate at every stage and a robust select committee process with an extended public submission period and public…

Russell Brown

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:40:40 +1300

And then we should legislate for recreational cannabis use as a seperate issue on its own merits and evidence-based substantive risks.

To be fair, most of the complexity of medical cannabis regulation goes away if you have recreational sorted. You can focus on actual medical regulation without worrying whether you're…

Russell Brown

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:38:23 +1300

Why bother asking that question when we know the answer: they had to go into coalition with a partner that wants as much as possible done through referenda.

I think it's a little more nuanced than that. The proposal for a cannabis referendum struck a sweet spot because it had…

Russell Brown

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:34:03 +1300

Absolutely agree Rich. Forget about a referendum and just get on with some effective, evidence-based policy, and then own it at the next election. I think the debate about whether to is over, it’s about how to. Just get on with it and don’t waste the time/money on a referendum.…

Craig Young

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:02:45 +1300

And then we should legislate for recreational cannabis use as a seperate issue on its own merits and evidence-based substantive risks. Which might be met through a pragmatic shunting of risk attribution to P/crystal meth, which is demonstrably more dangerous.

Craig Young

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 09:00:33 +1300

I oppose any use of referenda outside constitutional questions- they are too expensive and detract from service provision. When it comes to medicinal cannabis, what should happen is this (a) amendment of Category C of the Misuse of Drugs Act to exempt medicinal cannabis and related products from its recreational…

linger

Thu, 26 Oct 2017 01:31:33 +1300

Why bother asking that question when we know the answer: they had to go into coalition with a partner that wants as much as possible done through referenda. We can wish it were otherwise, but there it is. That nod to realpolitik (*hoik* *spit*) aside, I agree with you entirely.

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 23:54:59 +1300

A lot of people seem to regard referendums as an imposition or even an insult.

Sign me up with those people — because last time I looked, a few weeks ago we held a free, fair and credible general election to elect a legislature to legislate.

So, yeah, I thought…

Shane Le Brun

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 21:14:42 +1300

That's quite a positive spin on it. My dealings with David usually resulted in being told to talk to Julie as Labour didn't want any flack in an election year on MedCan. Julie's bill had won her the hearts and minds of the MedCan Patient population.

Ross Bell

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 20:48:01 +1300

The referendum is an opportunity... Not a perfect one, but we should make the best of it.

And it's not the last word. We have other reforms we could achieve before 2020.

And whoever is minister (unlikely JAG) we can work with them... Peter Dunne is a study in how…

linger

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 19:08:23 +1300

though it can also promote misinformation of the public
(cf so-called "smacking" referendum)

Euan Mason

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:57:54 +1300

t does seem odd to have a referendum. Shouldn't a decision on the best way to deal with drugs be evidence based, within a framework of political philosophy (such as whether people's bodies are their own, or chattels of the state? You could have a referendum on that.)

Politics is…

Zach Bagnall

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 18:53:15 +1300

Impairment while driving is in the news here in Colorado fairly regularly, usually whenever some new statistic is released. They're still figuring it out. There isn't a reliable roadside test and even a blood test doesn't necessarily indicate impairment since frequent users become highly tolerant of it.

Random linkage: http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/25/marijuana-impairment-testing/…

william blake

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 17:35:17 +1300

We don’t have a referendum on the speed limit.

No, because of engineering, physics and public safety but we should have a referendum on the $ value of the fine imposed relative to the drivers income or the value of the vehicle.

Nick Russell

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:59:55 +1300

Hmm. I'm not sure this is a positive development at all and I worry that it might be set up to fail just like Winston's retirement savings referendum back in the 90s. A lot of people seem to regard referendums as an imposition or even an insult. They certainly do…

Luke Williamson

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:59:09 +1300

Absolutely agree Rich. Forget about a referendum and just get on with some effective, evidence-based policy, and then own it at the next election. I think the debate about whether to is over, it's about how to. Just get on with it and don't waste the time/money on a referendum.…

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 16:55:40 +1300

It does seem odd to have a referendum. Shouldn't a decision on the best way to deal with drugs be evidence based, within a framework of political philosophy (such as whether people's bodies are their own, or chattels of the state? You could have a referendum on that.)

We don't…

Marcelo Rodriguez Ferrere

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 14:13:53 +1300

A thoughtful, informative post, Russell. Thanks. One note:

but Ontario is going for 19 – and, in an unpopular move, a state government monopoly on sales.

It's worth noting that this is likely because the both the same age and sale restrictions currently apply to alcohol. The province controls, quite…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 13:06:11 +1300

Someone on twitter dubbed it the “reeferendum” …
Sofie Bribiesca used the term in these very pages 8 years ago
https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-drugs-and-sex/?p=120006#post120006
I hope she is well these days.

..and I repeated it last year https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-cannabis-reform-is-not-a-mission/?p=365554#post365554 – but it probably even had a life before both of us...

Paul Campbell

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:32:54 +1300

Someone on twitter dubbed it the "reeferendum" ...

Tom Semmens

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:24:35 +1300

Interesting how devolved much of the overseas decision making is on pot. Perhaps we should explore regional options/control of at least some aspects of marijuana law reform in NZ?

Russell Brown

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:08:04 +1300

Hearing that final delegations of ministerial responsibilities have not been settled – and that as Associate Health minister Julie Anne Genter may not get drug policy as has been the case in governments stretching back to 1999.

That would be a mistake – not least for Labour.

Public Address

Wed, 25 Oct 2017 12:08:04 +1300

Discussion from blog post.