We need bigger hammers.

Good point, I guess.

Ha, a point, at least.;-)

Oh, I won't be listening, Sof. Never do. But it still makes me uncomfortable that he is being put back in a prime position.

Y'know what? I think this is a pretty public place to put him back under public scrutiny. He now knows his best behaviour is imperative…

Without knowing what he's been doing in the interim

He returned to the station at the start of this year and has been eased back via sports newsreading and backup presenting roles.

(From the link upthread.)

but I do question the ethics of whacking him on a much listened to…

I don't think it's reasonable that he never gets to work again, but I do question the ethics of whacking him on a much listened to spot, really.

I don't think that distinction is terribly practical, though. You could argue that sticking him in a graveyard shift would be "getting…

I find this pretty incredible. As if the official policy is " Lay low for a while, mate, and when this has all blown over and you've lost enough that people will feel sorry for you, you can make a triumphant return". Abhorrent.

But are you going to say he's…

Given that…

In actual fact, it was a very thinly veiled "question" on his blog that confirmed the identity for me.

Ditto.

In actual fact, it was a very thinly veiled "question" on his blog that confirmed the identity for me.

TV1s coverage of the "comedian" IMO identified the person charged, by eleminating those it couldn't be with its blurred video.

Always suspicious of announcements like this made on 23rd December.

Not proved as such. But I suppose it means that the Police believed Kristen Dunne-Powell enough (and presumably found sufficient evidence) to echo her claims in their statement – relatively forcefully, from what little we've been quoted.

Bart, I think it is proved that Vetich is not the nice guy…

More to the point, did Kristin Dunne-Powell get any say in the decision to publish?

Why would she? She's not a member of the police force or an editor of a major daily newspaper.

If a department were asked for a file like that under the OIA, it might ask…

Tony Veitch's lawyers today blocked the publication of material from a police file news media had obtained under the Official…

Surely if the allegations cannot be tested in court it means that Veitch cannot defend them, and as such they shouldn't become public?

He's perfectly free to contest the accuracy of any of the material released, though it looks like someone had a rush of well-oxygenated blood to the head…

He's got the right to challenge the release of the info under defamation law, but of course truth is a defence to defamation.

As I just said on t'other thread.

Nice.

If he'd denied the allegations and let them go to trial, he'd have had a chance to refute them in front of a jury, wouldn't he?

It strikes me that the prosecution were pretty lenient…

I am surprised that this is the kind of document that can be obtained through the freedom of information act. Surely if the allegations cannot be tested in court it means that Veitch cannot defend them, and as such they shouldn't become public?

I tend to agree. On the other…

"I lashed out..."

Quite a few times akshully.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/2427247/Tony-Veitch-police-file-released

But last night, Sunday News was told veteran journalist Jock Anderson, a former National Business Review chief reporter, had lodged an "official complaint" with police.

Anderson, now Truth's chief reporter, on Friday posted a letter of complaint to Auckland police, the office of the solicitor general and…

Today's library bosses want to spend $70million on a massive and inappropriate rebuilding project that will see much of the collection unavailable for three years and with no guarantee of the safety of the collections or the jobs of the specialist librarians.

This just in. The building redevelopment will still…

But I'm with you on the election law. I'd like to see that actually end up in the courts sometimes.

I'm sure you can understand why the police don't want to go near electoral law issues, though. The party being prosecuted will invariably claim the police have been leaned on…

But I'm with you…

Someone takes a letter written to support a guy, removes a paragraph, and uses it for a different purpose, but still in support of the guy. The police will look at it for five minutes and decide it's not worth their time and nothing beneficial would be gained.

Meanwhile, how…

Things I'd want the police to pursue under that though:

Tampering with evidence.
Interfering with the jury or judge or witnesses.

Those are things that definitely affect…

a victimless crime

Other than undermining public trust in our justice system, of course. I would have thought this one was high profile enough to at least warrant a minor investigation before deciding to do nothing.

Not as if the facts are hard to verify, and it was a quite…

I think police have better things to do. There are lots of laws that police don't enforce at times. It's called police discretion

I understand that, but this case was pursued once a complaint was made and my point (albeit as misinformed as i thought I could be) was to…

I think police have better things to do. There are lots…

They could follow it up.They should keep public order, dammit!

I can't say I'm impressed that someone misled the people who provided the references and altered at least one of them.

It's not a matter of public order though. I suspect the police thought about it for five minutes and…

This particular one was domestic violence requiring the defence to show glowing references.

And it was the system that was abused, wans't it? It seems peculiar that it should require a complaint by the referees, in that it was the court that was deceived.

And no one will be charged over the reported falsification of court evidence, it seems.

That's bollocks The law is the law is the law.Cops just can't be bothered.

Glad I came back to see where this topic ended up~

Actually, I think Russell may have the last words.

Just as an aside, being a sculptor and all that, its always tempting to start making dildos. There is an outlet on the main street in Levin.

Hope it's 3-phase. They take their dildos seriously in those parts.

What we envisage, is more fruity than Weta.

And cost-competitive too, one hopes. When the local council at Levin approached Weta Workshop a few years back about having a statue of a generic Chinese market gardener made to enliven the town precinct, the resulting quote was enough to make them…

Can anyone recommend a good lawyer to do conveyance

This one looks keen Or maybe This one.
The Herald, your one stop shop for all that is wrong.

Can anyone recommend a good lawyer to do conveyance and to help me set up an owner operator business project, in Levin?

You want a live-in lawyer?

Boylin' hot by dan and dan

Can anyone recommend a good lawyer to do conveyance and to help me set up an owner operator business project, in Levin?

Setting up Miss Universe New Zealand pageants?

Can anyone recommend a good lawyer to do conveyance and to help me set up an owner operator business project, in Levin?

Me too! Me too! In Welly please.

I need a cunning yet empathetic lawyer to help my lovely extricate herself from her leech of an ex.

Or is…

Except that in extreme cases a dodgy or incompetent lawyer might leave you in prison when a competent one would have got you off.

Just as, perhaps, in equally extreme cases, a dodgy and competent lawyer could save you from a prison sentence when you should have done time?

So does that mean I should call off my team of colleagues who are at the High Court at the moment with an application for an injuction gagging further criticism?

Bring it on! I shall represent myself!

(Yes I know what they say about people who represent themselves).

ScottY: just teasing.

So does that mean I should call off my team of colleagues who are at the High Court at the moment with an application for an injuction gagging further criticism?

I have as much scope to cause serious financial (and other) loss as the average lawyer through…

my colleague

m'learned colleague, surely....?

And wrt jury trials, I'm reminded of the old quote about democracy being the worst system of government ever, except for all those other ways which have been tred from time to time.

What do you mean, "I don't support your system"?
I go to…

Really? I thought it was because like all rent-seeking "professionals" they have formed a cartel to create legislative barriers to entry and hence artifically limit the supply of services.

Ah, that old myth. Most of the legislative barriers you refer to either restrict what lawyers can do, or hold lawyers…

Lawyers are paid what they're paid because that's the value the market puts on their work. All praise the market.

Really? I thought it was because like all rent-seeking "professionals" they have formed a cartel to create legislative barriers to entry and hence artifically limit the supply of services.

In the date rape case, a defense lawyer might want to exclude all or most women under 40..

I believe studies indicate that it's the other way round – female jurors tend to have less sympathy toward the female victim, so it's the prosecution who want to challenge them.

The…

Lawyers are paid what they're paid because that's the value the market puts on their work. All praise the market.

Would the prosecution be that simplistic: 'we have an Asian on…

There's just that small matter of:
four years of tertiary study

Pffft. Four years is nuttin'. I've been in tertiary study for... lessee... 12 and a half years of my life. (OMG, that's one third of it. I feel ill.) I have squillions of letters after my name. I just…

they're unlikely to be taking home much more than $100k themselves

I suppose I'm the only person 'round these parts who thinks that's quite a lot of money?

Righto then. As you were. :)

Oh, you're welcome to join us Danielle (joiiiin usssssss).

There's just that small matter of:

four…

The maximum an ordinary teacher can earn is around 70,000 at the moment

Most earn considerably less than that, and strike a salary ceiling pretty quickly--then the only way up is the admin route. I am married to a senior teacher (Head of Social Sciences at a girls' school), and…

My understanding is that both sides have the same number of challenges, so I don't see why it would necessarily affect the make up in favour of one side or the other.

Well it could do if you wanted to exclude a minority.

If there's a pool of 40 jurors,…

The other issue, though, is to what extent barristers use the challenge system to massage the makeup of juries.

My understanding is that both sides have the same number of challenges, so I don't see why it would necessarily affect the make up in favour of one side or the…

In reality, a lot of small-time lawyers are sitting around the median household income. It's the partners at the big firms that skew the profession's mean incomes so far away. Remember that the $222k figure was achieved by dividing an estimate of the total profession's income by the total number of lawyers, so it's a) a very wild guess, and b) prone to over-estimation of the majority through very, very high figures for a minority.

The other issue, though, is to what extent barristers use the challenge system to massage the makeup of juries.

The challenge system is pretty limited in NZ I understand. Unlike other countries where you can question the jurors, I think in NZ you can just challenge based on their appearance.…

they're unlikely to be taking home much more than $100k themselves

I suppose I'm the only person 'round these parts who thinks that's quite a lot of money?

Righto then. As you were. :)

I'm not trying to be a prick, but am seriously wondering whether our juries are being slanted towards those who aren't overly aware of WTF is going on.

That's one hell of an assumption ...

The other issue, though, is to what extent barristers use the challenge system to massage…

Yes, my shocking, got a little over excited there, as by the looks of it, that's still over three times what most teachers earn.

How many teachers are paying the wages of three people (based on what Logan's said, and it certainly doesn't sound inflated), and paying for their office…

I'm not trying to be a prick, but am seriously wondering whether our juries are being slanted towards those who aren't overly aware of WTF is going on.

That's one hell of an assumption. I've been summonsed three times, served twice (didn't make it beyond the ballot the third time),…

Who the hell ends up on juries?

am seriously wondering whether our juries are being slanted towards those who aren't overly aware of WTF is going on.

I have never been asked, because I have a minor, minor, reemphasise minor conviction and certainly would be in a category of "peers''…

My estimate is gross fees not lawyer income. So the 222k supports the lawyer, the two extra non-lawyer staff and the overheads of running a business.

am teaching the future inmates of Mt Eden Prison.

harsh!D

The holidays kind of make up for it I guess... if it weren't for…

Nope:

2b/9k= 222k

For every lawyer in private practise you will see an average of two additional, non-lawyer, staff. +premises and other overheads.

Yes, my shocking, got a little over excited there, as by the looks of it, that's still over three times what most teachers earn.

Who the hell ends up on juries?

I have been called to jury service 3 or 4 times since 2000. Once I was working overseas and was obviously excused. The other times I have managed to be excused because I am a high school teacher and I…

2b/9k= 222k

For every lawyer in private practise you will see an average of two additional, non-lawyer, staff. +premises and other overheads.

Alot of the rest relates to property and personal finance structuring (residential conveyancing, trusts, estate planning and administration, divorce).

Also, keep in…

http://www.stats.govt.nz/products-and-services/table-builder/Conviction+and+sentencing+tables/default.htm

According to this of 150,000 criminal cases filed in 2007, there were less than 500 acquittals. 35000 were withdrawn (diversion scheme?), 4200 were dismissed, 3000 were discharged (not the same as discharge without conviction). I wish I knew what these terms all meant....

http://www.lsa.govt.nz/documents/Annualreport08_web.pdf

Most lawyers don't do court work. They're mostly property lawyers, or commercial lawyers, or patent attorneys etc.

Actually, very few are also patent attorneys, 100 perhaps.

For Mark, some back of the envelope numbers, the accuracy of which would be far from sure:

The legal aid budget is about 100…

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. You clearly have a view that the state can be trusted and can be relied on to get it right. I have the view that if you concentrate too much power in the state that…

I don't think there's a different law for celebrities so much as an enormous advantage in being able to afford a top-notch defence.

I levied this in anticipation of how to deal with the corruption that would surely result in total deprivatization (not sure if this is the right word) of the system.

But wouldn't there be even more corruption if the state controlled everything? The NZ system is largely free from corruption…

2. All jurors are trained ethically bound lawyers (for Mark)

This would at least double the number of lawyers we'd need in New Zealand.

Kyle, I am quite religious, though not in a churchy sense, and here is what…

"There is simply no need for juries."

Get a grip mate. I'd like to see an office liken that of…

0. An oath should be taken requiring a higher standard of ethics.

I have been fairly involved in looking at the recent Lawyers and Conveyancers act, the Rules that followed. I think it would be fair to say:

a) lawyers are one of the most heavily governed…

Poneke's back...

http://poneke.wordpress.com/ is viewable by the public again.

I mention it only because I know quite a few who read and post here, also did so there in the past...

And there’ll be a lot of “he said, no he didn’t” type evidence.

And there’s not even the crime show diversion of the Bain trial to make it moderately interesting.

What was he supposed to have done again?

Got caught?

But then I think about cases where someone in a position of trust

Yeah, but often these are the ones with name suppression and keep their jobs(doctors for one) and continue to practice after their case.

..I couldn’t think of a worse jury to be on.

I'd couldn't think of anything better. All social conservatives should experience the inside of a slammer for a few years.

What was he supposed to have done again?

And why didn't this happen in the first instance of this one?Seems it should have been the first port of call.

It couldnt have been. If you recall.... it was a news article BEFORE it was even reported to the police.

I have no doubt that if the complaint was…

Surely if someone is considered innocent until guilty name suppression should always be applied.

I too have considered this, and it seems mostly to have merit,

But then I think about cases where someone in a position of trust (eg. doctor, clergy, teacher, scoutmaster, etc.) has violated people in their…

Surely if someone is considered innocent until guilty name suppression should always be applied.

I feel like we're now at the point where this needs to happen. I accept the concepts of "open and transparent justice" but feel like the complete disregard for the equally important "innocent before proven otherwise"…

Our legal system is half a step advanced from "trial by combat", especially in the civil area, but not much less in the criminal area.

I'm a person who believes in civic duty, but I will move heaven and earth not to be in a jury again. Talk about PTSD...…

Speaking of juries; I see that 7 of the 12 elected jurors have excused themselves from the Field trial.
Can’t blame them at all; I couldn’t think of a worse jury to be on. But that is a real weakness in the system.

This still sounds odd. The original notice…

Obviously you'll find some glaring holes in that ScottY, but I'd be interested to see what kind of thoughts and ideas other people have

I'm afraid there are some holes. Please take the following as constructive cirticism though.

0. An oath should be taken requiring a higher standard of ethics.

…

They're not being paid any extra to sit on juries. I think quite the opposite.

Not the point. They're trained to analyse law and tell you why it doesn't apply. Besides, a jury is supposed to be of your peers.

They'd be less bamboozled that the ordinary citizen

About facts?…

Take Italy, for instance: we let the judges do the judging

But there in itself could be ....oh shit nevermind me also Gio. I mean what's worse than beating a dead horse.
Hey this could be over at Regarding Auckland thread

Can’t blame them at all; I couldn’t think of a worse jury to be on. But that is a real weakness in the system.

2. All jurors are trained ethically bound lawyers (for Mark)

This would at least double the number of lawyers we'd need in New Zealand.

5. Lawyers are more or less randomly allocated case by case.

Would have to be Lawyers of chosen field to defend/prosecute cases of said field surely Mark

Yes. Definitely.

2. All jurors are trained ethically bound lawyers (for Mark)

Not a good idea. They'd spend their time arguing legal interpretations, rather than the facts presented. That's why lawyers aren't allowed to sit on juries now.

They're not being paid any extra to sit on juries. I think quite the…

2. All jurors are trained ethically bound lawyers (for Mark)

Not a good idea. They'd spend their time arguing legal interpretations, rather than the facts presented. That's why lawyers aren't allowed to sit on juries now.

and that the same ex assistant commissioner of police chose to resign rather than face the 15 internal charges of sexual misconduct,after telling us all on the steps of the court,(just like tony veitch)that he would fight every charge tooth and nail

That's probably not a fair representation of Rickard's…

Please indulge my curiosity and explain how that would work.

Shit. put my foot in it this time. Fresh off watching 'Zeitgeist Addendum'. I'll have a go nevertheless ScottY as I imagine my ramblings might inspire someone with a clue to make some realistic provisions. I'd envisage something not indifferent…

Rich, it wasn't your spewing that made the Holmes article unreadable.

Nah. Just, like, more of the same.

a moneyless system would be better.

Please indulge my curiosity and explain how that would work.

After that, the rest of the papers were covered in my spew, which kinda made the Paul Holmes column unreadable.

Rich, it wasn't your spewing that made the Holmes article unreadable.

I'm lost for words at the mentality behind that column.

I bought both sunday papers (fool me once....).

Somehow I ended up reading the Ratshit Saunders account of the day in court, which contained a sentence that went something like: 'didn't Kirsten look sooo adorably cute in her little secretaries…

(My brother is a lawyer and my wife was one, for the humour-impaired)

Bashing the legal system and its inequities is like blaming Corrections every time someone on parole kills or hurts someone. The system's an easy target, but nobody can actually think of a better way to do things. But we'll just blame the entire system anyway.

a moneyless system would be…

Most people who curse the legal system are actually complaining about the court system and its cost and complexity, and there is some justice to those complaints.

Fair cop, I am referring to the court system. Not about the cost and complexity – I'm not a fan of taking a…

But then I realised she wasn't referring to the Sunday Star Times.

Nor none of these neither. Personally, I reckon the Samoan Swat Team is more deserving of the acronym than any of the mangy local contenders.

Assuming that you mean the "Sensible Sentencing Trust", I would disagree with you to an extreme.

Islander, yes that's who I was referring to.

I thought for a moment Mrs Skin was referring to a two-bit outfit churning out dross and highly subjective opinion masquerading as fact. But then I…

In the name of Allah, the Beneficient and Merciful.

Bro. Chur.

The SST is the secret NZ branch of the Muslim Al Quaida Brotherhood. In order to avoid the wrath of Helen Clark and her lesbian…

Our legal system is half a step advanced from "trial by combat", especially in the civil area, but not much less in the criminal area.

Mark. I'd be the first person to agree that the system isn't always perfect. But, by and large, it works reasonably well for most people…

Events like Boyle's performance open up hegemonic cracks in the edifice of our consensual understandings about concepts like beauty, work, entertainment and even value.

Jesus wept, professor. Bags I get to pinch that bit about 'hegemonic cracks in the edifice of our consensual understandings' for an essay, sacha?

I think Kracklite et al were not gossiping but instead discussing real experiences and trying to draw from their own knowledge to try and clarify what is going on so publicly for Mr Veitch. It may not help him but it may help someone who reads this thread.

Thank you,…

As it happens, yes.

OK, not total disagreement then.

What I meant was that they believe that some areas of the law don't reflect the community's sense of justice and are attempting to have the law changed to better reflect (their understanding of) community views. The same options are open to…

They are very clearly a racist body – any words from them about Mr Veitch?
No?

As it happens, yes.

Assuming that you mean the "Sensible Sentencing Trust", I would disagree with you to an extreme.

They are very clearly a racist body – any words from them about Mr Veitch?

No?

I think Kracklite et al were not gossiping but instead discussing real experiences and trying to draw from their own knowledge to try and clarify what is going on so publicly for Mr Veitch. It may not help him but it may help someone who reads this thread.

Thank you,…

I don't like Vetich's sentence but I like the fact that he's be tried and found guilty of a crime. That's better than letting his estranged partner's family sort him out.

Indeed. And who gets to decide what justice is? The estranged partner's family? Cloudwalker? Me? Our legal system might…

it is WAY better to argue/talk/dispute (however imperfect the processes)our…

I know the point Islander's making and why many agree, but... despite the sometimes absurd and perverse outcomes, laws, lawyers and court rooms are still capable of delivering justice and probably do so more often than not.

I disagree. They deliver a result. Whether or not it resembles anything called…

That's what put me off becoming a lawyer.

I know the point Islander's making and why many agree, but... despite the sometimes absurd and perverse outcomes, laws, lawyers and court rooms are still capable of delivering justice and probably do so more often than not.

I don't like Vetich's sentence…

No real justice for these women,no real justice for anyone.

Hey cloudwalker,I am assuming (albeit an often foolish thing to do on PAS) that you have fortunately not had the pleasure of our Court System. One littl' pearler I learnt rather quickly is this. The Law and Justice are 2…

I simply cannot abide by the commentary posted by Paul Holmes in the NZ Herald. It was my breaking point on this whole situation ...

Me too. I'm lost for words at the mentality behind that column.

Anyhow, in the last 24 hrs or so I have followed this thread and read the posts. This thread caused me to register and to comment.

So I'd like to…

Can every blog / forum owner be expected to vet everything posted on their site? Seems to go against the whole point of it.

Since when is the law supposed to get the point?

Seriously, though, a blog owner or forum maintainer is regarded as a publisher under NZ law,…

If a comment is potentially defamatory it shouldn't stay up unless the site owner's fairly confident they have a good defence

But given most sites / blogs / forums have a “Contact us” button, wouldn’t the complainants be better advised just to use that?

Can every blog / forum owner…

Obsessive behaviour from the owner of a site is quite different from a drive-by comment on a forum that can be removed / altered if anyone can be bothered complaining?

The safer approach is to remove any potentially inflammatory comments before the…

I just can’t see how a third party, posting something on a forum, could cause any long term damage.

It's not as simple as that. If someone posts an inflammatory comment on a blog site and the site's owner doesn't take it down, or delays in doing anything about the…

But you raise a good point. Obsessive behaviour from the owner of a site is quite different from a drive-by comment on a forum that can be removed / altered if anyone can be bothered complaining?

And the owner of the site clearly had a bee in his bonnet, so stuck to his guns

I think "bee in his bonnet" rather understates the degree of extreme and obsessive behaviour in that case. I can think of other words, but they're probably defamatory ;-)

Who isn't? But he wasn't actually convicted of a sexual offence, so ...

True enough, and as I said there's more than enough out of the man's own mouth to expose him as an utter turd without going that far. I just wish some folks (present company excepted) would have…

In the case the views were expressed by the owner of the site rather than just a random poster though? And the owner of the site clearly had a bee in his bonnet, so stuck to his guns

I just can’t see how a third party, posting something…

Fair enough — and I'm not trying to bait you into getting yourself disbarred.

Thank, Craig – and I'm sorry if that's what you thought, as I wasn't suggesting you were trying to do that.

I just have to watch what I say about some people, regardless of that fact…

So, pardon me if I'm a little short of sympathy for Rickards

Who isn't? But he wasn't actually convicted of a sexual offence, so ...

I might be (even more) loopy otherwise.

The mind truly boggles at the threat to society inherent in that otherwise innocent remark...

Have there been any forums shut down by lawyers in NZ?

They've tried, i.e Stiassny v Siemer. But if the site is not based in NZ and the defendant is prepared to go to jail it can be hard for a complainant to do anything.

I'm not sure if anyone else…

Steven:

therapeutic treatment from a clinical psychologist is a privilege, that few can afford.

If he saw a clin psych, it sure didn't take. He didn't even learn to pretend to take responsibility.

Besides, when people say they've had councilling,…