I think you need to have a bloody good reason to biff bottles at cops – as in, an actual protest about something important, where your actions might help the cause. And then you expect to face the consequences.

Otherwise known as civil disobedience. That is, breaking the law very…

If you want to mount a defense of race relations in the mainland, I'm all ears.

No defence, but there are an awful lot of we 'pale plonkers' from the mainland who are also Kai Tahu. Just sayin'.

Plus firefighters could turn the hose on and douse a couch or two.

Not all that long ago, in Dunedin, a fire crew had things thrown at them for doing exactly that. Basic NZFS policy is not to retaliate unless there's immediate personal danger that prevents evacuating the scene, because…

you thought just how offensive this is

I'm sorry. I was thinking of all three things together and the various photos that have been linked to here – assaulting police, dressing as nazis and in KKK outfits.

Perhaps I should have said "stupid, racist young white people residing in the…

"we are not perfect and I know I tried plenty to have fun but not at the expense of others."

So Sofie, does this mean that you didn't hurl bottles at the police, ambulance drivers and firefighters? Or do you mean "...not at the expense of others apart from the…

... have you thought just how offensive this is

I actually find it quite offensive to claim that having a crack at e.g. South Islanders is the same thing as racism.

allow the magistracy to forbid any behaviour they don't like and make it a crime to persist with such activity once warned.

That seems to me to be merely a judicial version of enabling police to order people to desist from a particular activity.

Not quite, Rich. ASBOs can be…

I remember people saying exactly the same about drink driving. Who do you believe?

Objective evidence over personal anecdote. When it comes to driving while drunk there's no real debate that ability decreases with consumption, and that's based on significant study. Hell, the Herald did a test over the weekend to…

Just not the pale plonkers of the South, it seems.

If not change the word pale to black and plonker to*
Not nice

More than one has observed that it was no small miracle that nobody got killed on their way home from such parties.

As Steven Joyce pointed out the other day...

An online survey of 1200 Kiwi drug users shows one in four drove after taking cannabis in the last year... Minister…

Steve, it appears that the burning of couches in the middle of the street isn't at all an old tradition.

Couches have been burnt occasionally for ages. It's the apparent need to burn at least one to give a party any legitimacy that is new.

Somewhat relatedly, I presently find…

exercising their passage into adult life

Can't they just stick with congregating outside milkbars, applying too much Brylcreem and hitching up their hems?

I'd like to think those Klan photos, whilst I find distasteful can also work in a context of how to educate those around them of what not to do.

Only if someone calls them on it. And then backs it up with the education.

Heard a snippet of a holocaust…

I've never heard of the cops in…

I am not really defending these students.

Sure, Tom?

...
fundamentally good kids who drunkenly threw a bottle at a policeman one night.
...
drunk young men and women very unlikely to ever offend again.
...
protect our youth from themselves

The poor dears. As for "unlikely to offend again",…

That seems to me to be merely a judicial version of enabling police to order people to desist from a…

"I think, if we're honest, right across the community there was a sense it would happen,"
"One positive thing is that that memorial to murder most foul…

Have to admit a lot of the others are quite ingenious though.

Have a nosey on page 5/6 of the Undie 500

I should say, while some of the themes you see are pretty bad, most of the ones that come down are topical, well modified to a theme, and some are damn funny. It seems wrong that engineering students are the…

KKK lynching.

http://www.ensoc.com/Gallery/2009/Undie%20500%20Charity%20Drive

But seriously, laws left over from putting down the Chartists and such are not candidates for anything other than derision.

The laws referred to are the other, supposedly non-jackbooted-in-origin laws.

Such as? ASBOs are particularly awful tools, even by the standards of the most-surveilled nation on earth. From the Wikipedia article: "A person was forbidden to make excessive noise during sex anywhere in England."

The laws referred to are the other, supposedly non-jackbooted-in-origin laws.

And who said rioters don't have rights? Where this discussion appears breaking down is the apparent belief that it's unreasonable for the police to enforce the laws surrounding disorderly public behaviour, engaging in dangerous behaviour, and breaching the liquor…

No, Sofie, shouting at you WOULD LOOK RATHER MORE LIKE THIS.

I once replied to an all-caps email from my sister by, in part, enquiring "Why are you shouting at me?"

She responded, "THAT'S NOT SHOUTING. THIS IS SHOUTING."

My point is that things that are dangerous to uninvolved persons shouldn't be considered sacrosanct just because they're "traditions". If you want to continue a tradition…

Maybe the pro theatre crowd do it rather differently, but I know that back before DUI was mostly considered socially-unacceptable the amateurs would drive themselves home in the small hours after partying all night. More than one has observed…

Driving under the influence was a tradition too . . .

Definitely, though it's not been something to boast openly about for around a generation. You can bet that a fair proportion of the undie kids' grad-dads were wont to make with the laddish tales of seeing two beige holdens…

First they came for the sofa,
then they came for the fancy dress....

I should point out that burning sofas on Castle street is a relatively new tradition Sofie. Sofas were traditionally burned at Carisbrook at the end of the cricket in the 80s and 90s. Carisbrook decided to ban…

Why the hell aint anyone ever charged for burning down houses in the middle of the night?

They aren't? Really? I'm sure the cops who're investigating that latest arson will be rather put-out to hear that you've decided that nobody will be charged for it.

If nobody is put before…

I dispute that the cops have a right to prevent people from remaining in a public place. I dispute the concept that the police are above the people and entitled to order them to do anything.
That's based on my personal worldview

I'll 2nd that

Burning sofas provides what social benefit,…

I was talking to a friend of mine last night and we both agreed – nothing is quite so thrilling and fun when you are young as running away from the police.

Some cops enjoy the chase too, I've heard. All fun and games innit? Get out the batons and…

Yeah, not like punks ever did that themselves, eh?

Or David Bowie, either.

The majority, Rich, don't have your level of anarchistic belief.

Indeed. Fortunately, my belief system doesn't involve the majority being able to impose their will on minorities through state violence.

Not that I have any hopes for the success of anarchism in NZ or anywhere else. Unless and until the…

It was a bunch of agricultural kids (the type who filled the Brown Shirts in another time and place) being funny…

Novelty award for conflating punk with nazism, tom. Can't be a particularly strong argument.

Yeah, not like punks ever did that themselves, eh?

If it was a Stormfront party then yes, it would be offensive.

But for God's sake, they are nineteen and twenty year olds at a hostel fancy dress party. Lincoln University should be protecting them, not…

...Had the cops kept their distance, it's quite possible that we'd have had a few charred sofas, a lot of vomit and broken glass, but few real crimes committed...

Most of the pompous "string 'em up" commentary going on here and elsewhere seems to be based on the assumption some…

But if people want to fuck themselves up setting fire to sofas, why is it governments job to stop them.

Um, Rich, as someone pointed out up-thread, burning couches in the middle of the road is a public nuisance. And while that's technically a tort, not a criminal offence, most…

I think the community *does* have an interest in stopping them endangering non-participants

Does the community also have an interest in discouraging participants from subsequently needing state-funded health and similar services?

All the nice wishes in the world can't change the reality of drunk people doing stupid things, and thus needing to be kept away from flaming furniture or heavy, wheeled weapons

No, I disagree that the state needs to keep them from doing these things. I think the community *does*…

Lincoln students, not to be outdone by their bigger city rivals, sure staked their claim over the weekend.

Sheep shaggers. They got nuthin'.

Lincoln students, not to be outdone by their bigger city rivals, sure staked their claim over the weekend.

Having a range of laws that address "antisocial" behaviour by criminalising various acts (mostly without identifiable victims) and using the police to try and enforce behavioral standards is…

gave verbal orders for the crowd to disperse

I dispute that the cops have a right to prevent people from remaining in a public place. I dispute the concept that the police are above the people and entitled to order them to do anything.

That's based on my personal worldview,…

nobody has been charged with a crime with a non-police victim, such as assualt against a member of the public or criminal damage.

That suggests to me that the violence was mostly a result of the police attacking the students in order to try and force compliance with various social…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/2884059/Christchurch-students-in-Nazi-row

This was the Halls party, part of the Uni.

The Herald reports the charges against the students and others. I noticed that nobody has been charged with a crime with a non-police victim, such as assualt against a member of the public or criminal damage.

That suggests to me that the violence was mostly…

This discipline approach is part of the one law for all (of them & none of us) that exists in NZ.

Are Lhaws' crazy eyes on Campbell Live freaking anyone else out?

Oh yes. Along with the use of the word raschist.

What purpose would another university-based punishment serve, in this instance?

Agreed. The university should not attempt to extend whatever authorised powers it might have over students qua students to cover their activities as citizens, unruly or otherwise.

it's a consequence of most of the careers being affected by conviction being ones that require university qualifications.

Fair point. I actually agree…

I agree people get diversion across the board. Just not equally by arguing that their future employment is jeopardised. I don't think it's contentious to say that the "justice" system treats some careers like they count more than others.

That doesn't just apply to students though. People trying to become…

I understand that there are conditions of membership at Otago University. The Police do not control what those are.

Yup. And the university shouldn't do it.

Several decades they used to take an interest in whether men flatted with women. This is similarly nothing to do with them. If students…

Diversion isn't just available for students or people with future careers. Lots of people get it for first offenses.

I agree people get diversion across the board. Just not equally by arguing that their future employment is jeopardised. I don't think it's contentious to say that the "justice" system treats…

they should be additionally punished because they are students

I understand that there are conditions of membership at Otago University. The Police do not control what those are.

But they actually do, don't they, no matter what you might prefer?

Or are the stories of prospective lawyers pleading their "career" as mitigation just unrepresentative? Certainly never heard of a garbage collector getting off because their progress up the career totem pole might be unduly thwarted by youthful indiscretions.

…

And defying the police is not the same as giving the finger to mummy and daddy. Life lesson, as some have said. The students were warned what the consequences would be – no diversion – and they decided to go for it anyway.…

Greetings Ben Wilson! I want you to bottle two media interviewers, six production assistants and two cameramen. Your reward will be three trollhide inflammable sofas.

You will receive 1g 20s

Excellent, I will use my skinning and tailoring to make one set of flame-proof trollhide armor, which I will auction…

The Manawatu Herald quotes as follows from the local school inspector's report:— « Pronunciation of names in the colony should receive more attention from several teachers. For instance, that 'ang' in Wanganui, Tauranga, & is pronounced by them like…

If you're from the first four ships, odd are on that your mum was (at least) mail order.

Ooh, slappers in the closet. Go Canterbury.

Nothing personal, but isn't that the same sort of one-way sense-of-entitlement thinking that is annoying some people?

I can't figure out if this thread is aout the undie 500 riots or its a red convention to discuss the ills of the capitalist system.

I was intentionally being provocative. But I…

I've previously argued against students getting any sort of special treatment in court under diversion

But they actually do, don't they, no matter what you might prefer?

Or are the stories of prospective lawyers pleading their "career" as mitigation just unrepresentative? Certainly never heard…

You will receive 1g 20s

A New Zealand Geographic Board ruling that Wanganui must take an 'h' is "racist", city Mayor Michael Laws says.

"It is another racist decision, no question about that," he said on his Radio Live show this morning.

He said he would make no further comment until…

If it wasn’t for him I couldn’t really give a rat’s about the name change, but now I think it’s brilliant.

I don't think scoring – that's so 1980s computer games. It should be based around "achievements" so everyone gets to be a winner.

Like achievement standards in NCEA? Students could get credits towards their degrees based on their performance. It could be a paper in the Sociology Dept – Undie…

Oh dear Mr Lhaws is going to be a bit upset

Is it Lhaws or Lawhs? Either way, I think the decision is almost worth it just for the reaction it's going to trigger from dear Mikey.

The police could invite police from other countries to come and try out their tactics.

That one could be total goer. Challenge the foreign fuzz to deal with hundreds of rioting yoof without resort to firearms!

ACC are trying to drastically reduce funding and access for counselling available to visitims of sexual assault and childhood sexual abuse (Sensitive Claims.)
Please help the counsellors and therapists trying to fight these changes by…

(I am being incredulous, not urging you to leave. In case the tone was unclear.)

No, really. To paraphrase Stephen: for dull people, anywhere can be dull. And faced with SO MUCH stuff going on, some people just kind of shut down and ignore it all. And then moan about…

I hazard a guess that it does relate to them being university students. Not that I think all university students lack maturity, or an understanding of there privilege.

Well it clearly doesn't given that a bunch of people arrested weren't Otago university students. But despite that...

I grew up in…

>NZ is dull for kids

Please elaborate....

Well NZ is the kind of place where a bunch of fuckwits getting pissed and acting like dicks is front page news, and worthy of over 200 earnest posts by its most intelligent internet commentators, every year.

We all know the problem. The…

Nothing personal, but isn't that the same sort of one-way sense-of-entitlement thinking that is annoying some people? I wonder if that is less about class than it used to be. Perhaps just more obvious somehow in the offspring of the relatively wealthy.

I'm sure someone can dig up figures for…

I know several Londoners who frequently moan that there's nothing to do in London.

Get the fuck outta here!

(I am being incredulous, not urging you to leave. In case the tone was unclear.)

But I don't think that this is anything particularly unique. Growing up in Dunedin is probably like growing up…

NZ is a dull place

Everywhere is a dull place, for dull people.

Although I will agree that the zone of activities which a child can do unsupervised by their dull parents, and which said child won't be persecuted by their dullard mates for pursuing, can be a small one.

Sorry. I lived in Christchurch for a year, can't recall how many times I was asked about my connections or which school I went too... De La Salle, Mangere... didn't seem to open doors....

I once witnessed a truly hilarious conversation between two women (in a teacher/parent context) where they…

For all the gripes that I hear about students having their own special legal system with diversions to maintain their careers, I fail to see why that should be turned around and they get pinged twice for something – police and university punishment.

Nothing personal, but isn't that the same…

engage a waitress in a long yibbling conversation

Lovely expression, sir.

Ships, I meant ships.

Given the tone, confusing the word with another is excusable. Stoke up the couches..

. . . which school I went to . . .

That particular form of bum-sniffing is very much the go on Sydney's lower North Shore, where even the wait staff in restaurants seem to have gone to "good" schools. Once, in Neutral Bay, I witnessed a monocled fop -…

Actually, the whole "First Four Ships" is old-boy propaganda, based on the Wakefield settlement: there were many other Brit imports around
long before they arrived.

Ships, I meant ships.

Sorry. I lived in Christchurch for a year, can't recall how many times I was asked about my connections or which…

as for ANZ being 'a dull place for kids' – puhleeeze!
This is ratshit stupid.
At the moment, one of my nephews is having a bonfire & barbeque.
He's chosen the food, and his Dad is a gun cook & barbequer, and his Mum is a gun cook, and…

And the only convicts to actually be shipped here from Australia were those under 'sentence of death to be eaten by the cannibals of New Zealand."

They were probably at greater risk of being cannibalised if they'd stayed in Australia.

NZ is a dull place for kids

Please elaborate....

(3 vessels = a fleet for me...)

And the only convicts to…

My money (50 cents down) says we'll have the same conversations in 10 or 20 years time. Maybe they'll even reprint "ritual song of defiance" so people can get some perspective?

I'll see your 50 and raise you 50, on the guess that it's only going to get worse. NZ…

Courageous kids

I wonder if that news will appear in the Marsden old girls' newsletter?

Now, now, Hilary. No need to defame my alma mater. :)

which first four fleets?

All Cantabrians bear the convict stain. It's knowledge, Bro.

Almost three-quarters of students who left decile 9 and 10 secondary schools in 2004 transitioned into tertiary education, compared with 52 percent of school leavers who left decile 1 and 2 secondary schools.

Yup, still a strong socioeconomic effect.

B'sides, isn't everyone who goes to Otago a JAFA? And isn't…

tee hee

Please tell me your name is Andrew and that you're an Acountant, drunk in parnership with Taylor McLachlan. :-D

Dunedin does well by it's University (and vice versa) – in many cases it's a matter of "you don't know how lucky you are mate ...."

[Through the 13th century in Europe] such independence was reinforced by the immunity that many university students and masters had…

Well if anybody's interested in the actual data, here's an MoE analysis from 2007 of the transition to different forms of tertiary education:

Thanks! Interesting.

But I have met people like that and they annoy me. A lot.

Oh for sure. I went to university with a mixed crowd and we certainly had our share of students with an exaggerated sense of entitlement. Annoying indeed.

I just didn't see what these particular gits had said…

The idiot who jumped in the fire was a student at Telford (a polytech for farm-hands).

I should point out that it doesn't just teach people to be farm hands. I'm sure there's a fair few rich white farmer's children going to Telford, but the ones with serious farm running…

The idiot who jumped in the fire was a student at Telford (a polytech for farm-hands).

"Damn...
(said through gritted teeth as clenched fist bangs the table)
Those poor white folks for having kids that can just blend in with those rich white folks kids, ruin their reputations and get…

Oh sure, I agree with that. I came late to this topic and after reading through 100-odd post in one sitting I was amazed at the assumptions made about these students. Possibly our host set the tone by referring to "daddy's membership at the Northern Club".

I was intentionally being…

but referring to these students as white, rich and privileged

Er, because that's what a large majority of them are ?

[and]

I went back to university a few years ago and the harsh reality is that most are from good, solid, middle-class backgrounds and either went to private schools…

The problem isn't "they never learn" ... because they're probably bright smart people, when they sober up .... it's that they don;t teach the…

The majority of students on Castle street are there by choice, with the flats tenanted as early as July of the preceding year. If they were poverty stricken they would be flatting in the NEV for half the price.

Flatting on Castle street doesn't make you rich (or white, or…

The first two fines dished out for breaching the liquor ban (night before the Undie 500 I think) went to a process worker and his mill hand flatmate. Pa will be chortling into his cognac at the Club. Not.
The idiot who jumped in…

The generalisations on this thread are getting a bit overwhelming.

and

Whether or not students are wealthy, either on their own, or through family money, or poor, shouldn't we be calling for them to get the same treatment as any other dickhead that drinks too much and does stupid shit

…

On a tangent. Our neighbour's son…

A couple of things that have been over-looked in the discussion both here and at large are a) the lower drinking age and, b) the marked increase in recent years by the booze barns near the campus to cynically promote binge drinking.

This. Anyone who thinks there isn't a supply…

To pick that apart a bit, if there is a car outside every flat, that falls well short of every student having a car.

And most still don't; I'd be giving far less lifts if it were otherwise. It's often not the cost of the car, it's the warrant (and…

The majority of students on Castle street are there by choice, with the flats tenanted as early as July of the preceding year. If they were poverty stricken they would…

To pick that apart a bit, if there is a car outside every flat, that falls well short of every student having a car. Apart from that, second hand cars are far cheaper now than they were 15 years ago. For example.

The used import boom explains a lot.

A couple of things that have been over-looked in the discussion both here and at large are a) the lower drinking age and, b) the marked increase in recent years by the booze barns near the campus to cynically promote binge drinking.

This. Anyone who thinks there isn't a supply…

I went down Castle St and Dundas St last evening and every flat had a car outside it.

Yet when I was a student in the early '90s, it was something of a rarity for someone in a flat to have a car. If students are supposed to be poor,…

Most students are living financially on the edge, they've just left home and high…

Er, because that's what a large majority of them are ?

The generalisations on this thread are getting a bit overwhelming. Students do have some diversity, and no doubt the ones on Castle St include people who are struggling through by working while studying, hefty student loans, just as much…

but referring to these students as white, rich and privileged

Er, because that's what a large majority of them are ?

I went back to university a few years ago and the harsh reality is that most are from good, solid, middle-class backgrounds and either went to private schools or…

Sorry Mr 46 year old accountant, we're going to have to decline application because it appears you rioted when you were 18.

Unlikely. They suffer the consequences of their actions for a while, takes them a bit longer to get off the ground, and then after proving themselves for a…

Sure, not everyone can afford a university education, but referring to these students as white, rich and privileged only seems to vent anger against a strawman stereotype.
Fair criticism.
Worth remebering, though, that it does take a bit of cash to send your kids to a hall, where most first-year…

With 18 being the drinking age, access to…

Rich enough to spend at least $120/week on a flat in order to be within 2 minute pajama walk of lectures. I know that $120/week sounds like a bargain if you live north of Dunedin but given that the loan is…

The discussion has been around students who have moved away from home to go to uni, and by and large that is the reserve of people with resources.

Oh sure, I agree with that. I came late to this topic and after reading through 100-odd post in one sitting I…

There is a lot of anger towards these morons in this thread. I certainly have no interest in defending their actions – let the police/prosecutors/courts deal with them.

Yeah, I can't for the life of me figure out where an urge to run riot against a society such as this…

Sure, not everyone can afford a university education, but referring to these students as white, rich and privileged only seems to vent anger against a strawman stereotype.

Fair criticism.

Worth remebering, though, that it does take a bit of cash to send your kids to a hall, where most first-year…

From memory, in1994/5 there were no arrests at WSU protests, NZUSA or constituent association events either (I could be wrong on this last part).

Please Paul. Would I let a whole year go by with that?…

But where did the angle that these kids are some kind of upper-class oiks come from? I have no idea about their…

Foam rubber cushions make a hell of a lot of black smoke.

My parents scared me off any furniture arson early with a precautionary story about a friend of theirs who'd fallen asleep smoking on a vinyl couch and died of asphyxiation from the toxic fumes. Not that normal smoke…

In relevance to New Zealand 2009, I find the colour bar assumption a little questionable (but it seems to be very fashionable on this group). More questionable still is the assumption of plentiful employment, jobs in fact being extremely difficult to find these days, even for those with qualifications.

Sure,…

She and a group of teenage boys then danced around it. Foam rubber cushions make a hell of a lot of black smoke.

I recall once shouting at some numbskulls who'd thought it was a good idea to chuck a foam mattress onto the bonfire in the backyard of a…

In relevance to New Zealand 2009, I find the colour bar assumption a little questionable (but it seems to be very fashionable on this group). More questionable still is the assumption of plentiful employment, jobs in fact being extremely…

Or to manufacture especially made Inflammable Couches?

That would probably be regarded as a challenge. Remember, with enough accelerant, you can get most things to burn.

I'd also like to say that the only time I had an even vaguely close encounter with a burning couch, was when my neighbour…

"Poor diddums. Never mind, Mummy's here now, we'll ask the nice judge to discharge without conviction. It's the fault of the Police; if they hadn't been there, the riot would not have happened. And the…

I think you’re being too generous, there are still protesters, and most protesters I know have to have self-discipline and a commitment to the larger issues.

My experience…

Courageous kids

I wonder if that news will appear in the Marsden old girls' newsletter?

Agreed, but I've never really heard a better description for it.

Leith Flat?
Castle Cook?

The student area is basically the area within a 1km radius of the university. This is the university residential area, nothing more, nothing less.

To describe it as "Dunedin North" is akin to describing a 1km…

but when I went to the blog, there was no post.......

Priceless. It did get scraped and re-used by this spammy site, so here's the full post:

Courageous kids

I love the remnant New Zealand kids who defy the prune faces, clucking and sourness of our official culture to do…

The guys running Ensoc are pillars of the community already; the chair of Ensoc is an ex officio member of the Canty IPENZ branch c'ttee, they organise charity events, etc, They aren't your idiot dickhead students exactly.

Well...exactly. They can on occasion do quite a good impression.

HTML1DocumentEncodingutf-8StephenFranks.co.nz » Blog Archive » Courageous
kids
21 hours ago by admin
My daughter tells me she and 11 other girls have a van to take on the Undie…

As someone who went to Intermediate and then secondary school in Dunedin, it always boggled the mind how small the students from outside the place (and they are of course the large majority) had such a small view of the place. Many of them scarcely go out anywhere…