Everyone conceeds the need for Rail but the quibbles are over who should own it.

As for a waste of tax dollars and an inditement on society $1.2Billion in 6 years for what will only achieve literally a waste of time.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10508394

There…

Isn't the issue then that the slower freight trains can't deal with the greater camber?
Also, I don't know what they have inside them (because, actually it doesn't make any sense) but Wikipedia reckons the NIMT EF-class electrics are a touch heavier than the DX

Interesting indeed. Maybe they've just…

It was corporatised into two SOEs in 1988 – Works Civil Construction (that built things) and Works Consultancy Services (multi-disciplinary mostly engineering consultancy). Both of these businesses were obliged to compete with other…

We'd be better off spending those large sums of money on re-cambering NIMT to allow higher speeds.

Isn't the issue then that the slower freight trains can't deal with the greater camber?
Also, I don't know what they have inside them (because, actually it doesn't make any sense) but [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NZR_EF_class|Wikipedia…

Freight is the answer to profitablity and efficiency for rail and if the Auckland/ Hamilton and Palm Nth./ were electrified then Tony Friedlander and his trucking buddies would face a serious challenge to their long distance journeys.

Was talking to my engineer flatmate about trains and such, and he said…

But Cullen says even the access agreement they had was never adhered to, and that if it had been enforced, Toll made it clear would simply have started closing down services.

Well, perhaps time for some enterprising journo to start firing off the OIA requests (or cultivate some leaky sources).…

I'll concede that Toll has arguably done us taxpayers like a dinner here. But I think it was going to keep on doing that no matter what sweetheart deal it got.

I think we should have sent in the men in jackboots and berets. The final solution to corporates screwing…

Russell – thanks for conceding my point.

You're welcome ;-)

It ended up in an effective PPP with Toll but with the access arrangements far too loose.

But Cullen says even the access agreement they had was never adhered to, and that if it had been enforced, Toll made it…

Now to yours: The Crown was after 35 per cent of the company and outright ownership of the track in mid-2003 believing that would enable it to exert control. Little spoiled that scenario by his lightning share raid.

My point is that the…

I think you're being disingenous here and should just concede the point gracefully.

My apologies — I'd forgotten saying that.

To address it, my point was that you were depicting Cullen's failure to go the whole way and acquire all of Tranz Rail in 2003 as a costly blunder. I…

Fran O'Sullivan is displaying lots of wisdom after the fact today, but I don't recall her urging the government to buy the rolling stock in 2003.

That's what I was responding to – not your later commentary on the Herald editorial view which clearly is not…

But so is dogged reporting and I certainly stand on my record of breaking many of the significant yarns in this saga and the subsequent insider trading investigation imbroglio.

Hi Fran. Oddly enough, I was refreshing my memory of your writings this very morning. You were indeed a champ on…

Russell

You are right hindsight is marvellous.

But check your facts. In mid-2003 when Tranz Rail finally hit the wall I was not in NZ but off doing a study tour in Europe.

So – I did not advocate buying the rolling stock at that time – as…

NZ$500 for the iphone too. that's relatively cheap

The stuff story isn't an indication of what it will cost in NZ, just an indication of how much it costs in the states, in NZ dollars.

doh

Very interesting, given Telecom's confident hints that it would get the Jesus Phone.

I said to a friend yesterday, Telecom was probably unwilling to be out-bastarded by the iJobs on the revenue-shafting^Wsharing scheme. I wonder what he had to offer Vodafone to get them to shift, because as you say…

iPhone coming to NZ ...

http://www.vodafone.com/start/media_relations/news/group_press_releases/2007/vodafone_to_offer0.html

Interesting...

Very interesting, given Telecom's confident hints that it would get the Jesus Phone.

It looks to have happened at a higher level. And it's something of a reversal for Vodafone, which has hitherto been unwilling to meet Apple's terms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwRhpDUhSI8

http://www.vodafone.com/start/media_relations/news/group_press_releases/2007/vodafone_to_offer0.html

Interesting...

NZR had chronic under investment. The old…

http://www.doc.govt.nz/templates/MultiPageDocumentTOC.aspx?id=45970

I was always struck by how little we actually got for the "privilege" of being raped with a splintery broomstick by Fay, Ritchwhite et al.

It just should never have happened. Fay, Richwhite ran a sale in which it was a buyer. Then, with Wisconsin Central, it loaded NZ rail…

I think we were, and I don't think snapping 'ideological' at someone is a slam dunk outside a first year politics tutorial.

He didn't "snap". He put it to Prebble that he was ideologically opposed to the buy-back, in that he disapproved of government ownership in general. It was a…

www.ccmau.govt.nz

# Air New Zealand, privatized in 1989, subsequently rescued by the Crown in 2001
# Auckland International Airport
# Bank of New Zealand – semi-privatized in 1987; rescued by the Crown in 1990; sold off in 1992
# Electricity Corporation of New…

I just know about the very worst bits because they've continued to bite us on the arse.

Hope "they" don't get splinters or lose an eye on the arse-rape broom. BTW, I'll ask this again: Could someone remind me when Telecom and all those dirty foreign-owned banks got nationalised?

Terralink certainly was privatised. I think I'd heard of them, but not entirely sure. As you…

Can anyone point to an example of a privatised entity that isn't gouging, under-investing, and generally screwing their customers over? I'm too young to remember everything that was hocked off, I just know about the very worst bits because they've continued to bite us on the arse.

I posted a…

We return to the conclusion that New Zealand's problem wasn't privatisation per se, but some really bad privatisations.

I was always struck by how little we actually got for the "privilege" of being raped with a splintery broomstick by Fay, Ritchwhite et al. NZ got less than…

Were we listening to the same interview? I thought Julian Robbins stayed remarkably calm while Prebble ranted and raved about being "abused", ignored questions and generally got in a tizzy.

I think we were, and I don't think snapping 'ideological' at someone is a slam dunk outside a first year…

According to Prebs the Government should have said to Toll "you fix it".

Is this the same Richard Prebble who headed up the ACT party, the party of private property rights?

Just so I can be clear, the government should have forced a private property owner to do what the…

When I were a lad, the commanding heights were supposed to be confiscated. Truly, Thatcher has won.

What is comes down to is that if we wanted rail at all...

Well, i wonder. has that been established, in some sort of economical/environmental analysis?

Rod Oram — who's hardly a dirty right-wing tool — raised some carefully qualified caveats that are worth thinking about on Nat Radio today.…

There we go, that's the economic genius of the guy. Same man I once heard on National radio describing Wayne Idor as a credible source.

Does anyone else think Richard Prebble made a fool of himself on Morning Report today?

No — I think the Too-Much-Coffee Sean Plunket wannabe conducting the interview was the one who made a fool of himself. If I wanted to listen to piss and vinegar posturing disguised as hard news…

One of the locomotives currently in service was commissioned in ... 1951.

As was Graham Reid I believe. He seems to be still ticking over pretty well.

I'm not against the move, but do agree with Craig that the case should be clearly laid out – I think it's there.

May well be, but I'm still not hearing it. Apart from "well we fucked the dirty foreigners good and proper" – which I've been reliably informed is…

Me too. Does anyone else think Richard Prebble made a fool of himself on Morning Report today?

No — I think the Too-Much-Coffee Sean Plunket wannabe conducting the interview was the one who made a fool of himself. If I wanted to listen to piss and vinegar posturing disguised as…

It's not at all unusual for SOEs to run quite well, thank you. Look at Telecom, which went from utterly dire as NZ Post Office Telephone Services to providing quite good service in its post-corporatisation-but-pre-privatisation guise.

And more to the point, it did so while investing heavily in its own…

One of the locomotives currently in service was commissioned in ... 1951.

Apparently Toll owned Tranz Metro in Wellington. The DM (J-ville) units were c.1949. So apparently it would be good to get the rolling stock into the latter half of the 20th C.

What is comes down to is that if we wanted rail at all, there were two options:

1. Give Toll its sweetheart deal and be prepared for it to continue to game the New Zealand taxpayer indefinitely.

2. Take the hit and get Toll out of the way.

Which I'm…

With some capital investment from the government to bring it into the... well 20th century at least...

One of the locomotives currently in service was commissioned in ... 1951.

Me too. Does anyone else think Richard Prebble made a fool of himself on Morning Report today?

Well c'mon. It's Richard Prebble. I think he often makes a fool of himself when he opens his mouth.

But in an age of a looming liquid fuels crisis to leave such a…

I see a tee shirt coming on...

"Amnesia: Making it easier for the right since I forget when"

Quite.

I particularly enjoyed the way that Wisconsin Central went from "lacklustre post-privatisation management" to "experienced rail operator" between the two editorials.

and

Today's editorial:

I see a tee shirt coming on...

"Amnesia: Making it easier for the right since I forget when"

French-owned Veolia runs Auckland's urban passenger rail services under contract to the Auckland Regional Transport Authority (ARTA) under their MAXX brand,

From HERE

How does this affect things?

Toll Holdings' increased offer for Tranz Rail has virtually ensured that New Zealand will soon have a new railway operator. Once the takeover is completed, another attempt can be made to find rail's most efficient role in the national transport network. It follows a decade…

Steve – One of the cnr stones of sustainability is to build for locals not tourists.

I'm of the understanding Air Travel doesn't pay any tax on its fuel. So as far as passenger travel is concerned – The trains on our terrain can not compete with the plane

I…

I would sit this one out before reaching for the invective bucket.

Me too. Does anyone else think Richard Prebble made a fool of himself on Morning Report today?

Fran O'Sullivan is displaying lots of wisdom after the fact today, but I don't recall her urging the government to buy the…

Other than being "a good thing" in its own right, the political mileage of MPs riding the tracks would be great.

Cullen knew the value of the asset he…

Couldn't say whether renationalising the rail network is going to work though – I'm kinda hoping Cullen has run the numbers.

Apparently not, I've just heard Cullen on Morning Report saying there's been some "preliminary work done" but "we've got to sit down and come up with a proper long-term…

I'm not at all against privatisation of businesses the government doesn't need to own.

There really aren't that many good reasons to be for the privatisation of soundly run state owned businesses, unless you are a potential investor. First, profitable state owned enterprises help the Crown's fiscal position, allowing profits…

but the more I look at it, the more I'm okay with the government choosing not to expatriate a whole lot of taxpayers' money to Australia.

Well, Russell, I'm reasonably confident that Toll HQ in Melbourne isn't exactly awash in hemlock and arterial spray .

In a statement to the…

I'm of the understanding Air Travel doesn't pay any tax on its fuel. So as far as passenger travel is concerned – The trains on our terrain can not compete with the plane.

Meanwhile, Stateside, Red State Obama derangement reaches right over...

he can look forward to a lot more of that.

One the Obama fans, if you check out MyDD (thee best non-tribal Dem site), at the top left of their homepage there's a map illustrating Obama vs McCain. Up til a…

It's clearly not the case that government ownership has forced Air NZ from profit-maximizing to pricing at marginal cost – obviously profits have gone up not down.

No. But having a patient dominant shareholder may have made a difference. Remember that Air NZ's problem under its previous board was a…

Owning the railways ourselves doesn't make us any better off unless the government can actually run the service at lower cost or higher quality, or if the subsidies are temporary measures needed while the business develops to a normally profitable level.

But this was the argument put up against the…

I know this sounds like it makes sense, but it really doesn't.

I agree with most of what you've said there. The counter-point would be – if the subsidy led to a profit (which it presumably is doing for Toll), that profit should be used to reduce the subsidy and…

So many depressingly sensible reasons not to have fast trains :(

Presumably it would be cheaper if we rebuilt on top of existing infrastructure.

There's a fairly easy reason for this if we're talking high speeds. LGV (ligne à grande vitesse) have a radius of 4km on the original tracks, and are now at 8km for new lines. While they handle…

Oh, the humanity!

Or rather Oh, the huge manatee.

We haven’t even seen the agreement signed with Toll this morning, or the Cabinet papers authorising Cullen and the PM to negotiate the deal. I’m told we’ll get these in due course.

These will be interesting – like you, Craig, I hope there's at least an attempt at a "social…

Cullen has made the point that it makes more sense for the government to subsidise a public enterprise than a private one.

I know this sounds like it makes sense, but it really doesn't. This is the same fallacy as assuming that government ownership of a company is better because…

Bring back the Zeppelin.

Oh, the humanity!

Lawrence Lessig, incidentally, is coming to speak to the LIANZA conference in Auckland in November. For those who are interested in that sort of thing.

I like the outcome – as much of it that is known. As for proceedure it does seem to be of the worst type.

Thanks — and I hope I've made it clear that even where I do like the outcomes I just instinctively don't like the fait accompli as…

Ever tried to fly from London to Paris, or Tokyo to Osaka?

Kyle:

It might be worth "investigating", but not when you have a whacking great chunk of public money expended on the downlow As Colin Espiner puts it:

Well Colin is talking about the deal that was agreed to today, to buy back what we sold off a couple of decades…

It's actually a reasonably savvy line to take, and they managed it before 2pm.

Actually the best train trip in the country used to be the over night trip between Auckland and Wellington ...

I was reminsicing about that just the other day. At 10.00pm the "train manager" came around and switched off the tv and all the lights and at Ohakune they switched…

(Oh, and when National, as it inevitably will, demands to know why the government should be subsidising the network at all, it should be asked then why it's such a fine idea to subsidise a comprehensive fibre-optic communications network to the tune of billions of dollars.)

Because:
A – fibre…

Craig is fiscal conservatisim going to extend to the roading system, tolls at the driveway & on ramp?

Well, Shep, if that was the case I'd sure expect it to be done just a little more openly and transparently than this shemozzle.

I cannot really see the need for high speed trains, if you're in that much of a hurry you can always go by air.

With oil prices expected to drive the cost of air travel higher, that will no longer be true in a few decades. That won't matter to…

Craig is fiscal conservatisim going to extend to the roading system, tolls at the driveway & on ramp?

This inconsistency of govt policy has brought us to the folly of trucks as the main form of freight forwarding…

and we have no guarantee, but certainly a well founded suspicion that once rail is vertically integrated again, it will behave like most, nay all, vertically integrated transport network operators. At least we know we're going to be subsidising rail.

Odd isn't it, just when we cleave Telecom into three,…

What, whether the money could better be spent giving tax cuts to the rich?

When you've finished with that straw man, I/S, could you feed it to the sheep?

BTW, if environmental concerns are involved what a shame Toll still has possession of the Tranz Link freight forwarding operation — and it's rather large truck fleet.

Make them pay their way properly (in road user charges and emissions), and it won't matter.

I'm not surprised the obvious questions aren't being asked, but it's a little troubling nobody really seems to care.

What, whether the money could better be spent giving tax cuts to the rich? I think the answer to that one is "no". As for other options, remember that in…

The cost of bedding this in proved too expensive, so the track was laid flat, limiting New Zealand rail speeds ever since.

Not only that but whoever it was also decided that we would use a narrower gauge than the UK, not just limiting speeds but the range of territories…

The TGV is rated to a 4% gradient. The Raurimu spiral has a maximum grade of 1:52 and, per-wikipedia a straight-line replacement would be 1:24.

I think, when push comes to shove, "we" are going to be a little more interested in paying for hospital beds (and competent staff to care for the people in them) than folks having their own Murder on the Orient Express moment.

While there's some truth to the "if you…

Structural separation of rail…

Still, when it was running that train was my choice of transport home for the holidays.

Same. In the mid-90s, they used to have special deals for students in the holidays ($35-40) from Dunedin to Christchurch. They had great seats, arranged in 4s round tables, so you could sit round…

Now there is snow on the hills they have a $114 return fare.
http://www.tranzscenic.co.nz/promotions/promo2.aspx

Hills. And bendy bits. And shitty track. If you want fast trains, you need straight, level track, which would mean a significant capital investment.

Let's be very clear. It certainly would in some places. It has always been NZR practice to operate only at 90km/h, but in some parts of…

Plz Mistuh Cullenz, can I haz mah Southerner back.

(also, if you could see fit to work out why in the new millennium we can't get a passenger train that can go faster than either the old Vulcan railcar or a steam JA-hauled passenger train)

Heat. Took the Southerner from…

The old steam trains that get an outing here, always seem well-booked and some of the rail routes are stunning. The old Napier-Gisborne trip was fabulous, round…

The bulk of it has to be in direct competition with truck on our roads.

The last TGV line built cost EUR4bln for 400km. So maybe NZD12bln for the Auckland/Wellington line.

And the rolling stock, silly physical restrictions like that honking great volcanic plateau in the middle and the practicalities of intergrating any high-speed service with the rest of the network? There are certain physical…

I liked the Northerner in the 1970s when it had those phenomenally cute little biddy private bedrooms with pull-down bathing and loo facilities. (Can we have them back?)

Of course, daleaway — but wasn't it a bugger that no enough people actually used the over-night service to keep it viable.…

Let's not forget Ferrymead supplies Wellingtons trains at the moment.
http://www.ferrymead.org.nz/

I applaud Cullens move here,…

It would at least be worth looking at what we'd need to put in a TGV link between Auckland and Hamilton

TGV is not cheap

i hope the govt will take this opportunity to look at how the rail system can contribute to our country's transport needs as a whole.…

There are 9mln domestic air trips a year. So the $700mln annual interest on an Auckland/Welly TGV could be funded by an $80 levy on each flight / rail trip.

Put them in planes, too!

can I haz mah Southerner back

I really liked that train route! They had Devonshire teas...

Good question. I have been assured that the limit to speed on New Zealand rail is not the engines employed, but the nature of the track.

When the line was being put in around the turn of the 20th Century, the engineers employed by the Liberal government costed putting a…

Lessig is also known as a digital communist

.

Welcome to the revolution, brother.

That being said, the fact the Lessig is writing Obama's technology policy, whilst Gates is reputably with the Clintons puts me very firmly in the Obama camp (not that I have or want a say).…

(also, if you could see fit to work out why in the new millennium we can't get a passenger train that can go faster than either the old Vulcan railcar or a steam JA-hauled passenger train).

Hear hear. I suspect the way we'll get a decent viable rail service around…

(also, if you could see fit to work out why in the new millennium we can't get a passenger train that can go faster than either the old Vulcan railcar or a steam JA-hauled passenger train)

Hills. And bendy bits. And shitty track. If you want fast trains, you need…

The Marriage Act does not — and as far as I'm aware never has — put a religious qualification on whether marriages are legally valid.

Nope – and in fact it does the opposite: it's an offence to deny or impugn the validity of a lawful marriage (a clause which…

Maybe we should go to the French style of marriage where there are two ceremonies – a civil one at the town hall and a formal one usually in a church.

That implies that religion has something to do with it. Legally, it doesn't. People can celebrate their marriage in…

But — serious question, not a wind-up — isn't your other problem that the church in which you have placed your faith wouldn't facilitate or bless a same-sex marriage, no matter what the law said?

Not a wind-up at all, but a perfectly fair question: The answer is 'no', 'no'…

(also, if you could see fit to work out why in the new millennium we can't get a passenger train that can go faster than either the old Vulcan railcar or a steam JA-hauled passenger train).

Then thats fine, but they should be protesting against me and my wife as much as they are against gay couples.

Indeed, FletcherB. IN a perverse way, I don't see why the Maxim Institution and Density Churchers weren't applauding the Civil Unions Bill (which effectively kills same-sex civil marriage as…

Good grief Russell. Putting words into the mouths of the National Party even before they are uttered?. You are becoming prophetic. Anyway, National will just bluster and try not…

..Auckland City Council seem to be trying to stop any progress on getting more Aucklanders using rail for commuting.

Somebody stuffed up, clearly, in not designating that rail corridor in time. Mind you, with all the schemes, some barking mad, suggested in Auckland, you could probably block any development for…

I'm prepared to accept that many people do think that "marriage" is strictly between a man and a woman.

Sure, just as I'm sure there are any number of ageist, racist religious bigots out there who would have found my (49 year-old Maori Protestant) father and (27 year old white…

If chuches want to reclaim marriage as a…

There is a religious issue here and I think that acknowledging…

Presumably, Rudd fears the kind of destructive hellfight Labour encountered here when it made the move: he wants to preserve his popular public image from a campaign by the forces of angry conservatism. And that, really, is the problem with a strategy of government based solely on maintaining popularity.

No,…

As for the argument that "it makes more sense for the government to subsidise a public enterprise than a private one", would you care to expand on that?

The government bought back the network from Toll, which made it clear it could not and would not make the investment necessary…

Cullen has made the point that it makes more sense for the government to subsidise a public enterprise than a private one. But how much needs spending and how freight will be wooed off the roads and onto rail (shades of the Muldoon era!) remains to be seen.

And it…