There would have to be something wrong with a person not to support such a stance.

I’ve always believed that scratch a ( cannabis ) prohibitionist and you’ll find an arsehole.

Making Friends 101.

The only thing ‘proven’ about Sabins ideas and proposals is that they always fail …………………..” harm elimination “= “ just say no” …….. anyone else feel a touch of Hello…

Did they say it in Saddles? It's originally from The Treasure of the Sierra Madre – mexican bandits claim they're lawmen, Bogart asks to see their badges, bandit replies

"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to…

I'm not hassling your name, just a little clarity as to your official position which may add some colour to your comments.

I declare my interests – problem is I don't have many official positions & none relating to this topic.…

And I'll handle the cracks about having lala in the middle of my name, it serves me right for not using a falsie.

do you drive?

sincerely
Mark

Steve & your vested intrest might be you want 3Kings to be foreshore & raise the real estate value? ;)

Nice thought but the numbers just don't add up. With the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere being only about 2% the effects of any increase in this paltry amount are far…

Steve & your vested intrest might be you want 3Kings to be foreshore & raise the real estate value? ;)

Nice thought but the numbers just don't add up. With the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere being only about 2% the effects of any increase in this paltry amount are far…

Loved the Badgers & Mushrooms.

Before getting too excited about these experiments, however, we need to consider this: the largest known rats weigh no more than an average of one pound. Forcing a one pound rat to smoke 8 cigarettes per day is the equivalent of forcing a…

And as they said in Blazing Saddles "we don't need no stinking Badgers".

I thought you had that wrong, since I was certain it was from a Cheech and Chong movie, but Wiki says you're right. Almost. In Blazing Saddles they said 'Badges',…

Did you want to make the connection between smoking and milk, or just leave it out there?

Kyle: I think I have, but I don't really want to waste much time or energy on the wilfully obtuse. If you want to talk about little ironies, I don't think Fonterra goes…

IT all comes from south america dammit... the only difference is how many adulterants its been cut with.

sheesh.

Noob.

Yes, Kyle. And please don't get feline with me, because that's a game you're going to lose.

Did you want to make the connection between smoking and milk, or just leave it out there?

You've just taken yourself away – smoking therefore affects your behaviour.

But yes I know – apart from when trying to give up, or on long distant flights, smokers are quite…

I just don't think we really give shit how many end-users of all those lovely pounds of butter and cheese we'll export to anyone who will pay for the privilege end up in double wide graves.

Umm OK. Does this have anything to do with smoking, or are you track…

That's jolly sporting of you.

Oh no it isn't. I'm only vegan so I can be morally superior and annoy people at dinner parties. The animals are very much a secondary consideration.

Realistically though, I do find many vegans hard to deal with. They may have reasonable points, but they…

I just don't think we really give shit how many end-users of all those lovely pounds of butter and cheese we'll export to anyone who will pay for the privilege end up in double wide graves.

My problem is the quality of cheese we send to the world. It's an…

Yip $3 for 3months supply of my happy pills but no talk therapy allowance.

RNZs Kim Hill interview had it that all meth uses would get a psycosis with prolonged use.

Not just meth — all amphetamines. Basically, if you take amphetamines constantly over time, you will become psychotic. The big problem with P is that it redefines "constantly" in a really unhealthy way.…

naked Badgers

WTF?

Emma – You don't notice that toxic tang when someone comes in after smoking or you entre an empty lift that has just taken smokers back from injesting their cancer rockets?

Isn't that pretty much what I said? I've frequently shared a small car with two friends who are heavy…

Wait, you're comparing milk to cigarettes?

No, Kyle. I just don't think we really give shit how many end-users of all those lovely pounds of butter and cheese we'll export to anyone who will pay for the privilege end up in double wide graves. Or does New Zealand diary products…

Carribian Coke is superior to the Mediteranian Coke apparently,

Whaaa....?
Are you talking about the New Coke that tasted equally as bad as the Old Coke but different? Or Pepsi? How about the fact that burning fossil fuels causes Global warming, as do cigarettes and I would rather sit in…

I think I would rather sit in an air tight room of smokers than an airtight room of a single car running its engine with legislated unleaded petrol.

Car exhausts are toxic, and harm us all. They're an elephant in the room that few people talk about. I might say…

Please don't go into any air tight rooms, we might disagree but not that much :-)

RNZs Kim Hill interview had it that all meth uses would get a psycosis with prolonged use.

Of course…

FFS, Kyle, how about the fact we allow those merchants of death known as Fonterra to export their toxic animal fat

Wait, you're comparing milk to cigarettes? Do you want to try that again?

I don't get the extreme aversion to the smell, I've always liked it. Tobacco, and especially cigar and pipe smoke. But I've also never noticed the smell of garlic…

We legislate what we put in petrol, what comes out of factories, but we allow tobacco companies to sell a toxin to people to puff it out. From a distance it's somewhat bizarre.

FFS, Kyle, how about the fact we allow those merchants of death known as Fonterra to export…

I wish they would accept that the "my air" claim is null and void.Kyle, you don't own air.Its not yours so I figure , you may have to share it, so yes..

Yes true, 'our' air. Which implies collective responsibility about what we put in it. We legislate what we…

Yes, it is. Underage drinking in itself constitutes non-sensible behaviour.

I suspect some other countries where 'underage' drinking is commonplace, and handled a lot more maturely than NZ's version might disagree.

__You may not be demanding a lung transplant…

Theres a reason why conservatives hate harm reduction, as you can see from the above list ranking common drugs from most harmful to least harmful.

This is the British expert committee list, isn't it? Caused quite a stink when it was published, but their reasoning was fairly explicit. Although I…

But as Kyle points out his dog crap can get him in some doo doo to the tune of $300.

And flu epidemics will hit again. We are on record as saving a SARS out-break from happening, with one recorded case and the health…

Not sure if it's hypocracy, but like when my mates are drunk or smoking outside, I don't mind. It's the drunks & smokers that I don't know that piss me off.

Yes, Shep, just as being brow-beaten by complete strangers in public places doesn't exactly put me in the running for…

I will continue to believe that those in the throes of nicotine addiction are unable to accept that their behaviour impinges on others and you will continue to believe that anyone that dares to say it does is poisonously self righteous

Jill: I have cast my eye over the works…

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to…

But if you sit down and blow toxic fumes into my air, I have to move? Please.

I'm with Jill. If you occupy a public space, you have the responsibility not to make it unpleasant for others.

Don't wish to sound pedantic but most smokers in public places smoke in__…

Can I help you down from that high horse?

Heh. I don't even smoke – never have – and virulent nonsmokers irritate the crap out of me. :) I'm not sure why they don't spend their time giving car drivers hell instead. I bet petrol fumes do us a zillion…

Ironically, if I sat down next to you, and my dog did a big crap, and then I walked off and left it, I'm up for a $300 fine.

But if you sit down and blow toxic fumes into my air, I have to move? Please.

Kyle, I meant the…

That's not a good example. If our liquor laws were based on 'sensible people', then all the sensible people under 18 would be allowed to purchase and drink alcohol. And presumably all the irresponsible ones as well.

Yes, it is. Underage drinking in itself constitutes non-sensible behaviour.

If I sit down next to you, and you don't like the smell, you are quite capable of moving, aren't you?

Ironically, if I sat down next to you, and my dog did a big crap, and then I walked off and left it, I'm up for a $300 fine.…

The guy Kim Hill spoke to this morning about that was fascinating.

He was wasn't he? JFK was a user. No wonder he didn't blink during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Maybe the laws can be adjusted so that they cover 'irresponsible use of drugs', but you can't make laws based on what 'sensible people do'.

Of course you can. Liquor laws, for one. Drink sensibly: no problem. Drink and drive / public intoxication / serving minors, etc.: the law intervenes.

…

Perhaps I could suggest this Nice Hoodie for Jill Reade.

LOL. Actually it would be more efficient to put the smokers in them. They would get more bang for their buck and solve all the problems.

Nowhere new or useful to go on this one so bowing out of this…

My point was that we, surely, only to be "protected" from a minority of the people and those should be the most dangerous rather than the most unpopular.

Well, various drugs that are currently illegal (and legal as well), are to a lesser or greater extent, dangerous to self, or…

Maybe the laws can be adjusted so that they cover 'irresponsible use of drugs', but you can't make laws based on what 'sensible people do'.

Of course you can. Liquor laws, for one. Drink sensibly: no problem. Drink and drive / public intoxication / serving minors, etc.: the law intervenes.

Work places are supposed to be work free

If only ;-)

Of course. There is no argument about ETS (Environmental Tobacco Smoke)

Passive smoking doesn't cause cancer – official

PASSIVE SMOKING DOES CAUSE LUNG CANCER,

RESULTS
After adjusting for the effects of age, education, history…

My point was that we, surely, only to be "protected" from a minority of the people and those should be the most dangerous rather than the most unpopular.

Well, various drugs that are currently illegal (and legal as well), are to a lesser or greater extent, dangerous to self, or…

I try to make sure that my bad habits don't aversely affect those around me, and really, that's all I can do

That's all that anyone can ask. My point is that smoking is probably the hardest thing to do that with. I really don't care if people smoke so…

Well, I expected a smoker to respond with perfume and BO as arguments but you got me on the germs! Perfume and BO aren't known as killers even in the long term and most people don't willingly take on a viral load. There are, though, many pressures on…

But trusting the 'average person' can't be the test for whether a law is applied.
If that was the case we wouldn't have laws for murder and rape etc.

Well I would say that "the average person" is not a rapist or a murderer in as much as that on…

It comes down to trusting the average person, not the lowest common denominator

If it's a question of whether laws/punishment should apply in the area, that's a fair question to ask. But trusting the 'average person' can't be the test for whether a law is applied.

If that was the…

"As for my respiratory tract, as a lifelong fag smoker, thats my problem. I won't be expecting a lung transplant for free anytime soon. In return I think mountain climbers, and other dabblers in extreme or dangerous sports shouldn't be expecting free life-saving surgery and treatment either LOL"

The trouble…

"you allways think the glass is half full but I think the glass is half empty. Well I am normally right!"

Good eh?

There is no such thing as a "standard joint" as far as I'm aware, similarly you cannot be sure of the exact composition of any narcotic or barbituate other than prescription.

Well that's a weak argument. If it was legalised that would be possible, at least about as well as…

Okay, back in the house and settling down with — no, really — a glass of sav blanc.

I must note a pang of jealousy. Where I work, we have absolutely no culture of Friday drinks whatsoever.

There are exactly 2 beers in the fridge from the Xmas party...2006 !…

Call me a puritan, but I find "fun" that doesn't benefit others or engage with the broader world to be downright solipsistic, and thus revolting to me. At a deeply philosophical level to me I find that kind of self indulgence quite abhorrent.

I also hold the accurate perception of…

Shep until we can ascertain where the Uni of Otago get their funding for those studies I will consider there may be a problem with their credibility.

The University of Otago Multidisciplinary Study that Shep referred to gets their funding from the Health Research Council. They're an independent research unit,…

Perhaps, but I think anyone who drugs up when they're looking after kids or before operating heavy machinery are abusing their freedom.

I agree – freedom and responsibility and all that.

Also, having fun with your kids is better than drugs any day.

Emma, if you can't talk coherently to someone while your masturbating, you're doing it wrong – although admittedly that doesn't come up often.

This is a conversation with someone which gets above the level of dialogue in your average porn film?

Where I draw the line is "and drugs aren't for you either", especially when it involves authoritarian violations of one's freedom.

Occasionally I argue with (otherwise) left-wingers who use libertarian arguments about personal freedom when it comes to drug use. I find it curious that people talk about collective responsibility…

Where I draw the line is "and drugs aren't for you either", especially when it involves authoritarian violations of one's freedom.

Perhaps, but I think anyone who drugs up when they're looking after kids or before operating heavy machinery are abusing their freedom.

Craig, Harry Potter should be illegal – it's kiddie crack :)

I'm not going to respond to obtuse baiting – you know perfectly well what I mean. We will confine ourselves to illegal drugs and abuse of prescription drugs.

Fine, just checking, although I fail to see any correlation between the legal status of a drugs and whether it enables or…

Oh Craig – reading is still interracting with the author

I'm not quite that metaphysical about it, though the very intense imaginative relationships people have with literature and other imaginary artefacts could (from one angle) be a very respectable psychosis. Unless you're one of those Trekkies who translate Shakespeare into…

It's not that bas Danielle – there's still sex

But not masturbation, right? Cause you can't get much more self-indulgent than that.

This game is amusing, but I'm afraid I'd still rather hang with Danielle.

but I guess you can play with other people and it doesn't stop you interracting, or noticing the kitchen is on fire, or whatever

I wouldn't put money on THAT.

I'm not going to swallow the red herring about cigarettes and booze. cigarettes may give your cance but don't alter your perceptions drastically, and neither will a civilised glass or two of sav blanc.

Andrew, I don't think anyone needs the gorey details of my drinking at its worse but…

Call me a puritan, but I find "fun" that doesn't benefit others or engage with the broader world to be downright solipsistic, and thus revolting to…

I'm not going to swallow the red herring about cigarettes and booze. cigarettes may give your cance but don't alter your perceptions drastically, and neither will a civilised glass or two of sav blanc. Everything else does – no one can deny that.

It's kind of hard to know where…

Danielle, if you really want to debate this one, bring it on.

Um, yeah... I don't really get revved up by that kind of posturing, actually. It's not as though I have a problem with debate, but I'm not sure how to frame our respective arguments so that we aren't…

My main objection to drug use is that it tends to be the province of narcissistic tossers with little concern for their families and dependants.

Well, I certainly feel like that once out the other side of the traditional Christmas/New Year Saturnalia.

"I hurt all over."

"Yeah, eating your own…

My main objection to drug use is that it tends to be the province of narcissistic tossers with little concern for their families and dependants.

O RLY?

I like this idea to deal with drugs, and it should have wider applications too where instant fines for various behaviours are handed out -…

Kyle, sport is not just entertainment. In this country, it is a cultural icon; a big part of our national psyche.

So are black singlets and gumboots. I don't expect to get them for free however.

I don't want the drug legalised or normlised, possibly the parking ticket style of policing might be handy here (agree to disagree stage).

But it already is normalised. Do you know anyone who can't get hold of marijuana if/when they want ? Why should we waste police time on responsible…

So much of the pro-marijuana lobby use the word 'safe' or other mitigating language.

dc red – absolutely – Prison is a mad hell of a concept & for the vast majority of prisoners <3yrs sentences just shouldn't be an option, similarly it may be acting as a repository for the mentally ill.

Reefer Madness was a 1936 propaganda film describing what happened when pushers lured high school students into trying "marihuana". The tragic consequences included a hit and run accident, suicide, rape, weird orgies and a…

It's worth noting that first study didn't actually look at cancer rates at all, merely other respiratory symptoms (which are known precursors to cancer in tobacco smokers). But yes, inhaling burning organic matter into your lungs is not generally regarded as health-promoting.

– But then, neither is prison.…

I trust this one.

http://www.otago.ac.nz/news/news/2000/27-11-00_press_release.html

"University of Otago Respiratory Research Group to strongly endorse warnings by the Asthma and Respiratory Foundation of New Zealand against tobacco and marijuana smoking."

http://www.otago.ac.nz/news/news/2002/22-11-02_press_release.html

"Results showed that use of cannabis increases the risk of…

You post makes it sound as though Sky has actually performed a public service. I may be wrong, but I reckon the residents in the households who cannot receive Sky would beg to differ; about half the population.

Furthermore, Sky recently reported 40 per cent increase in half year net…

Legal philosopher Douglas Husak proposes that the fundamental question that should be asked regarding the legal status…

Kiwi Marina Erakovic has made it round 2 (first NZer to do so at a grand Slam for >10 years), and it’s on at 9p.m. NZT. Lets see whether they show it…

I guess that's "yep". Watching it right now.

Cannabis and mental health – to B or not to B (again)
http://ukcia.org/wordpress/?paged=3

Cannabis Smoking Not Linked To Lung Cancer, Case-Control Study Says
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6912

Study: Smoking Pot Doesn't Cause Cancer--It May Prevent It!
The Greatest Story Never Told
http://www.counterpunch.org/gardner05032008.html

The Greens Drug Policy Section 1 & 3 – sweet as no issues.

I don't want the drug legalised or normlised, possibly the parking ticket style of policing might be handy here (agree to disagree stage).

Section 2.3 on…

...if it wasn't so important we could concentrate on other matters that are actually beneficial to our country.

In terms of men and sport, I'd prefer that the testosterone gets burned up in a form competitive tribalism that falls short of killing people.

The Highlanders have clearly turned you off sport entirely.

Grant Robertson for Minister of Sport. Only hope.

Kyle, sport is not just entertainment. In this country, it is a cultural icon; a big part of our national psyche. Remember the reaction to the New Zealand performance…

Sky is a monopoly provider in this regard, and should be broken up or at least made to play fair.

Clearly it's not a monopoly, as TVNZ and 3 sport bid for, and get sports. TV3 got the rugby world cup, and TVNZ is getting the Olympics, which are the…

I can't disagree with you in relation to TVNZ's shoehorning of complete crap – I'll add the appalling 'Stars in Their Eyes" (more like "Tears in My Eyes") to your "Dancing with the Stars"...
Mind you, Sky does serve up some quality too – Anyone for 'Dogg the Bounty…

Ahem. Some of us are married to people who like ESPN.

I cringed when I realised Sky got the ESPN version of the European Cup final. Fcuking appalling. It's like asking the English to give coverage & analysis of the Stanley Cup.

[TVNZ is] a commerical broadcaster, and the charter / public service funding it receives seems to have no relationship to it showing any better nz-related programming.

[[http://www.stuff.co.nz/4562930a1860.htmll|Prime-time viewing on Television New Zealand could be in for a shake-up after the Government stripped the state broadcaster of control of its $15…

I'm not agruing "for" drug use.

I'm arguing for sensible drug policy, rather than the current situation where more harm is caused by the law than the drug itself.

The safest drug use is NO drug use, and that includes ALL drugs, legal and…

But if you have kids or other dependents, I'd expect you to think about more than just what you want. If you're single, alone and no one cares what happens to you – yeah, go for it. Do…

I also even rent "Group B" cars from…

crap like ESPN

Ahem. Some of us are married to people who like ESPN.

(I like the World Series of Poker! And Pardon the Interruption. And baseball.)

You may be talking about the COMT gene. This is in something like 20% of the general population.

1% of the population are prone to schizophrenia. SHORE stats estimate 16% of…

Yeah, on the rare occasion I watch SKY (e.g., in hotels)

I hope that it's not while you're on a taxpayer-funded junket with a Govt dept in a flash resort! :-)

Until Sky stops filling its shitty sports channels with crap like ESPN (a fatwa on Tommy Smyth wid a why?) and Hip Hop Hold 'em, then I'll be spending my money elsewhere. What a joke.

In an ideal world I'd be happy for proper pay-Per-View – no regular subscription, but…

Credit to Lose for reading the whole e-mail

That surprises me too, but for a different reason…

In an ideal world I'd be happy for proper pay-Per-View – no regular subscription, but…

sitting onever-increasing arse in front of TV, pay or otherwise, is not, in fact, the best way of combatting youth obesity

Oh course P, BZP and most other amphetamines are also excellent ways to lose weight...

But seriously, and I guess this is my thought on Sabin's high school education…

I wouldn't have taken up cricket, soccer as a kid without first seeing and following those games on TV.

To put Sky's $80/mo in perspective, in Canada $56/mo will get you 60 channels (that's real TV channels, not radio)…

soccerball

WHAT!!!
Calling the Beautiful Game that is FOOTBALL "soccer" was bad enough but Soccerball?
SHAME ON YOU!

& lets not forget its cancer causing properties.

Ditto chlorinated water.

I just learnt the other day that certain byproducts of chlorination, formed in particular when drinking water supplies are contaminated with soil, vegetation etc., are known or strongly believed to cause cancer. Some brief info here.

As is well known,…

The concept that the current levels of child and youth obesity are linked to the absence of sport coverage on free to air TV at first glance seems illogical but it’s spot on.

My kids and their friends used to play soccerball, but with no huge keenness. Now the…

And Simon A is right to consider if the current levels of child and youth obesity is linked to the absence of sport coverage on free to air TV.

Perhaps it's just me, but I tend to suspect that sitting on an ever-increasing arse in front of TV, pay or…

Kiwi Marina Erakovic has made it round 2 (first NZer to do so at a grand Slam for >10 years), and it’s on at 9p.m. NZT. Lets see whether they show it…

Every mass murderer also consumed water, pissed in a toilet and beathed oxygen.

Whats your point.

Statistically speaking – that is gonna have a huge impact on society.

Every mass murderer in NZ since Grey was a dope smoker, but statistically drink drivers are the real killers.…

Tim: thanks for that. I've now discovered the remote login option – mwahahaha, more data!

Tom Coates presenting at Webstock 08: "You can never have too much sweet, sweet data."

What really annoys me is their surreptitious use of the rugby channel for screening more and more events…

At least acknowledge the harm these drugs cause and the risk inherant in them.

Yes, totally. All recreational drugs have health risks associated with their use.

I don't think I made myself clear in my post. When I said "relatively harmless", I meant relative to the circa 99% of substance…

Cannabis has serious impacts on mental heath

For the very large majority of people who ever use it, it doesn't.

Au contraire mon ami. I find the inane giggling at everything, occasional paranoia and tendency to empty the cupboards of all food-like substances are serious (if temporary) impacts on my…

There was an article in Scientific America last month ("Illegal drug labs leave toxic legacy" by Peter Aldhous ; 26 Apr 2008) which talked about that. It also had a throwaway line relevant to this debate; any chance of someone with access to the archive emailing me…

Yes, smoking is bad for your lungs

Cookies :-)

Cannabis has serious impacts on mental heath

For the very large majority of people who ever use it, it doesn't. We do now know that its use in the early teenage years is a bad idea and can cause various problems later on, and that it increases the chances of…

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11293716

Managed is sure better than addicts being after an illegal hit,

I know that it is somwhat aside from the current topic, but I wanted to raise the broadcasting issue that you covered on Media7 yesterday – ie: the tension between TVNZ and Sky over sports boradcasting.

I thought more could have been made of the fact that there are…

I'm sorry... victim?

What.. the .. fuck.

If I *choose* to put somethign into my body, and know the risks associated, I'm no victim, whetehrit be fatty foods, booze or pot.

Mikaere I thought NORMAL might have left the Greens with Nandor.

Cannabis has serious impacts on mental heath & lets not forget its cancer causing properties.

But the pro-cannabis lobby preffer to blame the victim.

Alcohol & Tabacco are well recorded & researched yet…

More could go into attempts that don't mean legally doping addicts untill their organs fail. Managed is sure better than addicts being after an illegal hit, but it is a system that admits defeat about addiction and addicts themselves.…

Comparing P with Tobacco doesn't really help the discussion IMHO.

Tobacco (still) and Alchohol , are both legal drugs . The electric Puha and P among many others are not.

And your point is ?

One of the glaring aspects of current drug policy is that the real killer drugs…

When I was working at a certain government-owned corporation that specialises in housing people, Methcon were called in to give seminars on recognising the manufacture and use of P... that being an increasing problem amongst tenants and hazard for the staff.

There was an article in Scientific America last month…

They seem to be happy to get absolutely hammered drunk on their taxpayer subsidised police bars in the stations

That makes it sound like the taxpayer subsidises alcohol.

Most decent sized police stations have a police club, which operates a bar out of their cafeteria/social room. The alcohol will be…

Tobacco (still) and Alchohol , are both legal drugs . The electric Puha and P among many others are not.

Russell, you'll remember me from the Drugs Roundtable at Parliament two years ago. I saw Sabin on the telly last night, and he was absolutely full of it, completely ignoring the raft of positive findings regarding harm reduction, and the recommendations that have been made for improving drug education.

And…