What the fuck happened to Democracy?.

Too much energy spent nurturing and celebrating freedom of speech, too little energy extended to engaging in protest and activism or anything else of measurable significance.

It is vital to understand that these side effects are not accidents, not unexpected consequences of an otherwise well-intentioned effort…

Really? Now that's a bloody surprise.

I hope their anger is directed at the Minister of Health…

Need way better organised opposition that we have seen from the tired warriors of the trad left. Watching how much more successful these local copyright-related campaigns have been reassures me that all hope is not lost just yet.

How about the gherao?

My point is that the frequency of this kind of obfuscation over back-room dealing is becoming the norm, just like urgency.

What the fuck happened to Democracy?.

Those who support it are doing a poor job of explaining what it means, whereas those who benefit from its absence are doing…

http://www.ustr.gov/about-us/press-office/press-releases/2010/april/office-us-trade-representative-releases-statement-ac

from

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/04/free-at-last-official-acta-text-coming-next-week.ars

Too right. The Sonny Bono Act all started
with a mouse.

then it was all downhill for Senator Sonny and ended
with a tree ...

...raised some sort of whimpery snickers...

sounds like a brand of ecclesiastical underwear...
take it away Mr Fellini...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYzRL9YIswQ
Wear-a-bull art anyone?
(I love the…

Anti-competitive Mickey Mouse greed has a lot to do with that. Propping up antiquated business models in perpetuity is the antithesis of a flourishing and prosperous business ecosystem. We can do better, unless we sell ourselves out for some baubles and a pat on the head from daddy.

Too right.…

In NZ they don't put money into R&D at all, as we've seen.

They don't invest enough into R&D, sure. But it's wrong to say they don't put money into R&D at all.

There are all sorts of reasons why businesses don't invest in R&D. That's an entirely different discussion. But I'm pretty certain…

Businesspeople don't generally put money into R&D out of altruism.

In NZ they don't put money into R&D at all, as we've seen. Clearly the patent system is far from the only motivator to innovate.

Does the system still encourage innovation

If a patent system didn't exist to reward investment in innovation, there'd be much less investment in R&D. That seems obvious. Businesspeople don't generally put money into R&D out of altruism.

You must acknowledge that the only people that make real money out of patents... are Lawyers, Shriley?

Happily no. I'll give you just a couple of examples I've been involved in recently. I have an NZ client who about a month ago got paid a seven figure sum on the…

apparently IP address means Intellectual Property address! with the UK's new Digital Economy, Bill.

Who is this Bill? Is it the same Bill who sent me this?

1. A bicycle can't stand alone; it is two tired.
2. A will is a dead giveaway.
3. Time flies like an arrow;…

As I said, don't underestimate the deterrent effect of a patent or patent application.

As I said

If you have enough money "All of your patent are belong to us".

You must acknowledge that the only people that make real money out of patents... are Lawyers, Shriley?
;-)

A granted patent over the process would prevent competitors from exploiting it (assuming you enforce your rights – though don't underestimate…

So, in the main, it appears that those unhappy about the decision are limited to the local subsidiaries of…

But if you're going to be a dick about it, then I think that this is the point at which I bow out.

Whatever.

The case was proven to the Select Committee and Minister. You and Scotty seemed to disapprove. And yet I still see no compelling argument that stacks…

Don't you just love it when an industry says 'no' but the lawyers still want to shove something down your throats?

Don, I joined this conversation in good faith. My intention was no more than to offer up a few clarifications based on my knowledge and experience from inside the…

I'm obvisouly getting too old but I consider 1991 and 1995 pretty recent, even in software terms. This experiement with patents where they should not been allowed has been…

It is entirely possible to be appalled at the bully-boy tactics applied in the ACTA negotiations, but also a the same time not think that patents/copyright/intellectual property are evil concepts and should be abolished.

It's not a black/white, zero/one, on/off, with/against proposition, 'k? I'm not…

skilled practitioner, and the innovative steps are rarely significant.

I have to disagree there. Obvious does not necessarily equal logic, or the other way round.

Maybe not, but that's not what's required. For the purpose of examining patents, it is assumed that the innovative step must not be obvious to…

Which was driven by political interference.

Exactly, what Pharmac usually avoids

I've said what I wanted to say.

But sadly, like many patent lawyers, presented no evidence to justify extending the what should be a limited privilege of patents to software.

(cough) Herceptin (cough)

Yeah that was the govt, not Pharmac though. Playing politics with drugs money, bad form.

You are the one arguing for a special case, not me.

Not at all. All inventions are potentially patentable if they meet certain criteria, regardless of their field of technology. You are saying that there should be an exception for software. That means you're the one who wants software treated…

However government money is not spent on expensive fashionable versions of drugs. Or on expensive drugs of limited value.

(cough) Herceptin (cough)

Which was driven by political interference. That was about the first act of interfering in public service decisions that National carried out once they took the reins.

However government money is not spent on expensive fashionable versions of drugs. Or on expensive drugs of limited value.

(cough) Herceptin (cough)

ps. could you do the same for national standards please. ;-)

Hah! Actually, though, I didn't think the NZEI leflet was too bad.

And like others wanted to give a hat-tip to Nat and those at publicACTA, for the work they put into crafting the Wellington Declaration.

I am still not sure on all of the details of the ACTA – but am wary of the implications.

As a non-expert, it…

What they have to do is decide which treatments will result in fewer deaths. And then they recommend that government money be only spent on the least lethal treatments.

I'm guessing Pharmac might prefer to say 'most effective', rather than 'least lethal', but harm minimisation is at least one of…

There's nothing special about IT.

Agreed. You are the one arguing for a special case, not me. This is why software doesn't need the "special" treatment patents give. There is "nothing special" about law either but I don't see too many lawyers rushing to have patents apply to special defences.…

They are not perfect, but they are at least providing an essential gatekeepers role.

Apologies for the rant :).

Assuming I understand you correctly and you are referring to Pharmac, I think there is a general misunderstanding of what Pharmac is required to do. They aren't gatekeepers. What they have…

All NZ IT companies are small in this context.

All NZ companies, barring one of two of the larger corporates, are small in this context.

There's nothing special about IT.

do you know if other industries use patent tit-for-tat in disputes like large software companies seem to?

Yes. Large corporates in all fields will spend millions of dollars amassing huge portfolios of patents that may or may not be valid. Thier competitors do the same. Litigating any one of them…

I realise this threadjack has gone on too long

Well, these issues are important and interconnected. Patents are particularly harmful to those of us who work in the software industry. Not a single line of new code has ever *not* been written due to copyright. On the other hand, lots…

And dual protection is not at all unique. Most new inventions involve more than one form of IP.

Ignoring trademark, since it's aimed entirely differently, and software, since that's a ground of significant contention, which new inventions get multiple grounds of protection? Plant species? Not last I knew. Mechanical devices?…

Software did not have patents until very recently and it would be unique to have dual protection.

Software patents have been around since the 1970s. They're not that new.

There is…

ScottY, he's right, you can't have it both ways with copyright and patent covering software and NOT claim it is a "special case". There is quite a lot of research into the economic disincentive caused by software patents. Google is your friend.

But I…

No, but then I'm not the one arguing that the software industry should be a special case.

Actually, you are. Software did not have patents until very recently and it would be unique to have dual protection. Patents *are* special, not the norm. They are a privilege, an artificial monopoly,…

As a matter of interest, do you know if other industries use patent tit-for-tat in disputes like large software companies seem to?

Large corporates will often play games when confronted with potential patent litigation – irrespective of the field.

Maybe that the lifetime of software is so brief that patents…

It just happens that the groups opposed to software patentability are more vocal and better organised than other anti-patent groups.

You think? Or maybe it's just that the evidence in favour of s/w simply doesn't stack up. That was certainly the conclusion of the Commerce Select Committee who heard the…

do you know if other industries use patent tit-for-tat in disputes like large software companies seem to?

Almost certainly they do, it's just that non-software patents are far less controversial so it's not such big news.
The big thing about software is that the barrier to entry to the global…

There is nothing inherently special about the software industry.

Maybe that the lifetime of software is so brief that patents are ridiculously too long to be of anything other than inhibitive use? Or how about that software is a literary work,and thus should not be burdened by the restrictions on…

I'm going to assume that you are in fact familiar with the case against software patents — it's not exactly a new argument for those of us who care about such things :D

I am indeed familiar with the arguments against software patentability. I just happen to disagree with most…

The Wellington Declaration is a beautiful, clear piece of writing.

That it is.

And how much more special is it that it was collaboratively written, via a moderator, in a public meeting? Nat Torkington rocks.

I am also tempted to ask what is so wonderful about that particular development, but I fear a copyright flamewar would erupt

Basically, with software, because the field is so large and so fast-moving, it's impossible to search exhaustively for prior art or prior patents – often, someone will patent…

The Wellington Declaration is a beautiful, clear piece of writing

That it is.

I am also tempted to ask what is so wonderful about that particular development, but I fear a copyright flamewar would erupt

Particularly for a country that is full of tiny software houses, software patents are a significant hindrance to innovation. They're frequently very broad in description, and often used…

It still amazes me that when we look at the rest of the world with Free Trade Agreements with the US, that we still want one. Go on, take everything.

What amuses me is the people who were so thoroughly opposed to our FTA with China, convinced we would be…

It has been suggested elsewhere (sorry no refs for now) that any 'Free' Trade Agreement with the USA will demand Pharmac's scalp

This is what I was afraid of. They are not perfect, but they are at least providing an essential gatekeepers role.

It still amazes me that when we…

I'm going to assume that you are in fact familiar with the case against software patents — it's not exactly a new argument for those of us who care about such things…

As for this Government's…

Oh, and ACTA as it stands could see this wonderful development overturned

I'd be interested to hear exactly why you think ACTA threatens that development. I hadn't heard this issue raised before in relation to ACTA.

(I am also tempted to ask what is so wonderful about that particular development,…

In broader terms the pharma industry detests NZ's centralised Pharmac drug-purchasing agency…

And thanks Don Christie – it'd be nice to learn other writers et al are prepared to poke their heads above the parapets (have sent Russell's original post around to people who may be interested, including…

Er, did you check the date on that one? Little geek humour there ...

Whoops... The dangers of clicking on links before looking at the 'big picture'.

Still can't fully understand the link between ACTA and Pharmac as yet though. But clearly my cognitive abilities are compromised at present. Mansplain…

And are the Europeans doing themselves any favours when they complain about the use of baseball analogies by saying;

Er, did you check the date on that one? Little geek humour there ...

What is entirely realistic is that US interests could see Pharmac gutted (as was demanded of Australia's Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme as a condition of AUS-FTA)

Could someone in the know elaborate on this? Also on what do you base the assumption that this government wants to get rid of it?…

Don't believe for a second it will be adopted :(.

The loss of pharmac has always been part of this government's agenda anyway and that it will cost New Zealand more than we can afford matters not a whit to Key et al.

"Read. Signed. Sent.
Thank you."

Ditto.

Thank you.

ACTA is designed to undermine previously negotiated intellectual property agreements. It has big implications for New Zealand with our current government desperate to…

This ACTA treaty really does affect all of us in many ways, it is not just about counterfeiting, indeed, counterfeiting hardly gets a look in. It is about our future access to reasonably priced health treatments, knowledge dissemination,…