For real?

no of course not, and I doubt simon would take such a comment seriously, or at least I hope not. Simon's got his own field of experience and opinions based on that and nothing I say will change than and nor should it, and I hope he respects…

I'll take you declining to address issues raised as conceding to the content within.

Take it anyway you want Rob, I'm out.

I'll take you declining to address issues raised as conceding to the content within.

For real?

google could perhaps be substituted for a lawyer's advice when negotiating a deal and I'm still a little speechless after that.

I like your debating style mr grigg. persistent to a point.
I like it better when mark's on the receiving end but art is art and I appreciate it.…

behold that is a long post

Like I said Rob, I ain't going there. I could sit here for half an hour and pull it to pieces, there are so many flawed assumptions and misrepresentations, but I won't especially because you will then misread what I say and then power…

post links to good summaries of the documents

A new thread called "holy crap" or suchlike, perhaps?

wild illogical swings.

well definitely cross purposes here.

The thread reads like this
you said

But for all that, the basic premise that the artist signs to a label, pays all the costs out of their small fraction, and then owns nothing at the end, is one of the things…

Holy crap. Wikileaks just took on the UN
This will make or break them.

Holy shit.

Feel free to post links to good summaries of the documents, y'all.

So you're judging the quality of an artist by its ability to generate start up cash, essentially their ability to have a day job, or to have friends with money they will loan to them.

No, from a business POV, from their drive. No drive..fuck off....

who said anything about…

So you're judging the quality of an artist by its ability to generate start up cash, essentially their ability to have a day job, or to have friends with money they will loan to them.

No, from a business POV, from their drive. No drive..fuck off....

who said anything about…

I hate my english teachers

Have you worked your way through a major label contract of recent?

who said anything about major?
I said label, you're the one who's got this obsession with these big boys. you need some new friends to play with man, your last batch have scared and scarred you.
The industry…

Surely the act of publishing is that statement in itself?

Oh, totally. The one pertaining to rights of copy and distribution just compounds that statement.

you're making a statement about where you think that what you write might fit in relation to the public discourse.

Surely the act of publishing is that statement in itself?

You think hiring a lawyer

there's plenty written about this topic to deal with this yourself, a google search will give you a swag of things to be wary of. sure a lawyer would know better but there's no one forcing you to go with the evil in nyc any…

CC makes no more assumption of value than does unadorned copyright. It requires copyright law in order to make it work. It just adds some shades of grey into what's possible and what's not.

It's not about regulation, it's about easing the requirements of regulation.

I'm aware of all this.…

This will make or break them

So you're judging the quality of an artist by its…

if you bother to make a statement regarding its permitted and not permitted use, aren't you also commenting on how valuable you think that others ought to consider it

Nope, not any more than someone who has "All Rights Reserved" which is the assumed position…

That's a pretty arrogant approach, especially from a blogger, Gio.

Although to be fair, I prefaced the statement by saying that it was an arrogant approach.

That blog is worthwhile to at least one person, the one who wrote it.

For sure. But if you bother to make a statement…

It makes a difference to something that is worthwhile.

That's a pretty arrogant approach, especially from a blogger, Gio. That blog is worthwhile to at least one person, the one who wrote it. If this were further back in the thread I'd be tempted to ask for evidence of your…

You could do it yourself, but you're busy touring so let's put it in the hands of a specialist. You don't have to handover ownership of the lawn in order to get it mowed.

So actually, there's room for lots of Mark Kneebones to pop up and make a living…

He thinks that living off art by means of copyright is for losers. So he either has a job and does art in his spare time, or receives funds from elsewhere

(A) he's a public school twit, and (b) he makes money the non-commissioned painter's way, i.e. sale of works…

ask yourself if they are making more money by simply paying the likes of Mark Kneebone $5000, or giving away 90% of the return to a label (who also deduct that other 10% to cover costs). Maybe they've all worked it out, I reckon so.

knowing a few of those…

Do you mean because he's in NZ, and the audience and money is overwhelmingly overseas?

Because you'd think in theory, the internet would make distance less of a problem for at least some part of being an artist – can get your music out there and gather fans by only…

That makes a difference, whether you perceive it or not.

It makes a difference to something that is worthwhile. Most blogs that I see CC come with, nobody would bother to quote, permission or no permission. I'm more interested in what the bloggers on PA do, or Harvest Bird does,…

Even there, the hand of the publicist and PR specialists are working. Go and ask Mark Kneebone how it works. He's a wizard.

Oh sure, and that will never go away. But that's the equivalent of hiring Mr Green to cut your lawns, yeah? You could do it yourself, but…

I was referring to what I perceive to be the implication of that statement in Banksy's book. Nothing to do with what you personally might have said or written.

Your inference may or may not have any connection to what Banksy may or may not be implying, hmm?

I was…

And I think that is the main thing that is going to change. Russ was talking about the Hype Machine not so long ago. The whole nature of the business and how you get noticed is changing. People are telling each other what to listen to.

Even there, the hand…

I don't think anybody has said that. I certainly haven't. My point is that if you make money at it, it's a bonus.

I was referring to what I perceive to be the implication of that statement in Banksy's book. Nothing to do with what you personally might have said…

Hmm, so the quote tag is case sensitive, to boot..

We learn something new everyday.

It's not just the hipocrisy that is irksome, but also this idea that people that make art to live are ethically inferior to those who have another source of income,

I don't think anybody has said that. I certainly haven't. My point is that if you make money at it,…

By uploading music, movies, or other multimedia files to the Service, you grant iCompositions a non-exclusive license to distribute those files to visitors of iCompositions.com, including through our internet radio station and podcasts. __Any text submitted to the Service, excluding lyrics and blog entries, becomes…

some people make music or film cos they want to express, purely for self fulfillment.

In the spirit of jumping in on a discussion on page 14 (withoput counting the other, monster thread) having read more than 1% of the posts thus far... I got the Banksy book for Christmas,…

People make music because they want to be heard,

some people make music or film cos they want to express, purely for self fulfillment.
we want to hear it or see it cos their motive of self expression appeals to us, sometimes more than those who's motive is to draw…

People are telling each other what to listen to.

and that's coming full circle to "people are paying people to tell people what to listen to". Its not so much each other either, its people are telling readers what to listen to and watch and the readers don't necessarily get…

Which is what the record labels and iTunes do so well. They tell most people what to buy.

Testify. One of the most interesting things to come out of a Fat Freddy's Drop feature I wrote for Unlimited 18 months ago was the fact that being on iTunes in lots…

The actual cost of making the record is a very small, and for many acts, increasingly smaller part of the equation.

the time period you base your hatred of the evil empire on was when it was quite expensive, and as you've said artists are more aware and the deals…

its hasn''t work that way with the mobile phone market in nz for far far to long.

True, the barrier to entry is very high in New Zealand. Hasn't stopped a few from trying, though, so they obviously see a market to be cracked.

The real problem with NZ as…

But to be honest Mark, much of that is crap, or at least it's music that most people don't want.

Let's be completely honest and say that 90% of all published music, regardless of the delivery mechanism, is crap ;-) (Sturgeon's Law)

Which is what the record labels and iTunes…

But I agree though, he may have had little choice but to take the deal offered as the alternative in his particular cased wouldn't be a very hard, almost impossible road.

Do you mean because he's in NZ, and the audience and money is overwhelmingly overseas?

Because you'd think in…

cased wouldn't be a very hard, almost impossible road.

case would be a very hard, almost impossible road.

you underplay the role of investment capital in that equation simon.
labels front for the quite sizable cost of putting the whole dance on.

No, because most of that investment you talk about is marketing cost. The actual cost of making the record is a very small, and for many…

Once Apple is no longer the pre-eminent online marketplace (and that's happening as we type) their cut will reflect that they've got to attract artists by offering better deals.

its hasn''t work that way with the mobile phone market in nz for far far to long.

But for all that, the basic premise that the artist signs to a label, pays all the costs out of their small fraction, and then owns nothing at the end, is one of the things that will cause labels to flounder.

you underplay the role of investment capital in that…

And there are many (completely legal) tune sharing sites where you can download new music for free.

But to be honest Mark, much of that is crap, or at least it's music that most people don't want.

People generally want the music they are told they want, be it radio,…

The System has developed a few quirks lately ...

It's preparing to go sentient and destroy us all, no doubt.

Interesting interview with the digital dude at Universal Music

Now, that's a very different approach to what we've seen previously. Excellent.

I did, the System formats them into em's and strong's in order to display them. I'd try it again for experimentation but twice might make Russell growls at me.

I thought it was quite funny when I came back to it!

The System has developed a few quirks lately ...

that would depend upon what the actual costs of bringing said product from artist/label to paying customer.

In an ideal world, it would but, when you own the road to the market, you can charge the toll that you like. Once Apple is no longer the pre-eminent online marketplace (and…

Russ, this is pretty much the model I was referring to some threads back, but Simon indicated it is much lees the case these days. Did I read you wrong, Simon?

No I think Russell's right. It really depends on the deal but there are all sorts of add ins…

Moral: use PAS's proprietary formatting codes, not the proper HTML ones :P

I did, the System formats them into em's and strong's in order to display them. I'd try it again for experimentation but twice might make Russell growls at me.

wholesale $14.40 inc gst (artist label cut $12.82 ex gst)
distro $19.23 inc gst (distro cut $4.28 ex gst)
retail $29.95 inc gst (retail cut $9.52 ex gst)

I think I got that right, not sure on the last one.…

refresher current break down of retail cd prices
$22.44 (19.94 plus gst) wholesale = $34.95 retail. retail cut = $12.51 a disc.

So, a 35.8% markup, although it's clear that the likes of the Warehouse and JB operate on totally different wholesale prices to the rest of the retail sector.…

anyone got comparable figures for 12 tracks itunes downloads.

I actually don't think it's an unreasonable margin.

that would depend upon what the actual costs of bringing said product from artist/label to paying customer.

30% of the total income is similar to what a shop takes and for that they provide sales staff (be they disinterested snotty teenagers, or…

Oh, dear

implies that there is no creative aspect to technical pursuits

actually the tech head comment was made with regard to a couple of specific comments in this thread coming directly from the tech side only. that attitude may well not be representative of the tech industry, or the creatives in…

edit function !!!

the providers of the service are now taking the large cut of the lunch. itunes takes some where in the region of half. pretty hard to offer your product at a lower price if someone else is taking a huge cut.

As far as I know, Apple's margin on iTunes…

It also implies that there is no creative aspect to technical pursuits, no resulting body of work, and no interest in making a living from this work.

It also implies that all we do is technical stuff, writing software or games. It ignores the fact that many "tech-heads" are also…

The real problem for creators on iTunes and other download services is the miserable royalty rate paid on those sales by the major labels. I think that will change as independents and aggregators start eating the majors' lunch.

the providers of the service are now taking the large cut of…

implies that there is no creative aspect to technical pursuits

hell no, that is rediculous, but that's software not media. I was trying to restrict my comments to something that doesn't do something other than entertain, although computer games must fall into the entertainment category.

what's the game industries position…

as if it's some kind of insult,

absolutely no insult intended,
jealousy if anything, society holds technical thought in high regard. their the guys that make stuff work.
but yes, you said it better.

But that's been the story of the last few decades of copyright law. Virtually all the…

I am a proponent for change, but mine is a change from the creators point of view, and its not conservative, I'd like to see protections and rights liberally extended, in favor of the creator.

But that's been the story of the last few decades of copyright law. Virtually all…

that proponents for change need to deal with.

I am a proponent for change, but mine is a change from the creators point of view, and its not conservative, I'd like to see protections and rights liberally extended, in favor of the creator.
that's not a very popular view point…

Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making

Whilst…

That young bloke Guptill's good, isn't he?

Sorry, Russ, you're right of course. I apologise to the System for letting my temper get the better of me

Apology accepted. Thanks.

I could just do without the name calling as a discussion strategy device.

Having (sigh ...) been back through the thread, I'm not particularly happy about that, but there's a consistent pattern to these confrontations on this particular topic. There's one particular person involved in all of them.

Perhaps you…

I really wonder how much perspective you have on your own behaviour.

the same as everyone. ie their own and that of their circle of friends, and what people say here.
your use of the word behaviour is loaded and slightly offensive though. shall we just leave this alone?
its…

And yes, I do know Mark and I think you'll find he understands what I'm saying more than you give him credit for, as do many indies and artists worldwide.

I have no opinion on mark, I'm not giving him credit or not giving him credit. I think he's an…

anyway this is bollocks

It's not. I really wonder how much perspective you have on your own behaviour.

In the past you've described my work as "shit", claimed I have a reputation as a freeloader on local artists interested only in "getting your name on the guest list and drinking…

Actually, he's insulted me repeatedly since he's been posting here

feeling like I have to defend myself obvious, but whats the point.
Ive raised issues with you directly and I would say them directly too you in person too regarding stuff you've said. I'm not anonymous to you. I've dealt…

Whilst it is plain for me to see that Copyright is broken, I do concede that some of the notion of CC holds value, I can see that other parts of it are not so…

Actually, he's insulted me repeatedly since he's been posting here — and quite nastily at times too. I put up with it, but I'm really not prepared for other people to have to suffer it

No, I'm aware of that, which is why I wrote 'this thread' as I thought…

Rob may be very and annoyingly argumentative but insults are not a part of his weaponry, at least in this thread, unless I've missed something.

Actually, he's insulted me repeatedly since he's been posting here — and quite nastily at times too. I put up with it, but I'm really…

but it has nothing to with anything you are advocating Rob.

just to be perfectly clear, I am not advocating any of this, I am observing and discussing possibilities.

The laws you seem happy to go along with are just the latest stick

see above. I've said that a few…

He did it with Russell for months, if you all remember...

I was serious about the stuff I said in discussion russell, I never said I was only joking, just that in discussion it is just that, not a fist fight and law suits.
my comment re sense of humor…

Kyle, remove one particular person and the problem is solved.

Well if that's the case, if you (and others) stopped responding to him, the problem might fix itself.

Personally I'm starting to find it all a bit unlike what we've come to expect from System all round.

endless sniping at credibility is pretty insulting

The 'you set yourself up as some kind of expert but you don't know shit about dick' followed by 'I was only joshing, lighten up!' thing is a recurrent robbery discussion ploy. He did it with Russell for months, if you all remember...…

@Grant
I'm sticking to the argument as much as robbery ever has. He's seen fit to question my knowledge and capabilities, misrepresent my comments and generally be as rude as he feels like (where were you at that point, by the way?), so it's only equal time to question his.

…

The corporates may not be pushing for the laws to help out the minions but those laws do help out the minions in trickle down, like our friend islander, who is avoiding big evils and keeping a tight rein herself

And more power to her for doing that, but it…

YouTube settlements

yes I talked to peter about it when he was in chch.
the topic was isp level intervention. so I was confused with why the corporate crime angle was coming in.
it would be relevant if media content owners were trying to extract money from isp's for content…

I was taking issue with you saying I was keen to throw people who make music to self interested corporates

No that wasn't what I was saying, I was saying that laws should not be written to benefit corporates which is what is happening in several countries. These corporations are…

I won't. Sorry. Rob,

I was taking issue with you saying I was keen to throw people who make music to self interested corporates. I have no such interest and you know it. it was a long sentence you wrote though so maybe you meant something else, its late and…

All I know is – robberry has argued continuously/heartfeltly/with insider knowledge for *the rights of copyrightholders.*

thanks islander ( I do know who you are, I think)
that's the fun thing about discussion, if there's no one arguing the opposite point of view its the sound of one hand clapping.…

You, Simon, know who he is…

you're going to have to explain that one to me cos you were the label with the major distro. I was the one that avoided it, to my detriment I'll agree. I've never got into bed with them so how am I corporate evil now?.

Nope...having gone over this very…

Rob doesn't have the balls to try this shit on in the real world, cos he'd end up sitting on his own real fast

grow up man, I'm very open and vocal about my opinions and always have been, (go back and read that article you outed me from) and…

I vote for any topic which mentions 'copyright', or even 'music', Russell has a list of people who are banned from posting. I'd rather have some less informed people posting from…

The analogy is to ascertain how to react to matters of law when technology changes the rules.
do you change the law to accommodate?

setting aside them 2 dudes freaky behaviour I'd still be keen on hearing matthew's and cameron's response to the analogy based on reacting to law when…

I'd much rather he told some of the undoubtedly…

Really Rob that's incredibly naive.

I said

most of our laws have progressively been put in place to protect the members of society fairly, or at least that's the idea.

the last part of that sentence is "or at least that's the idea".
I'm all to aware of evil big…

as for t'other 2's inference of offending simon, he's got my personal email, as I have his, and I'm sure he'd let me know if he thought I was insulting him, ie we…

I don't know Robbery personally, but several people I know do. They all agree with Simon that Robbery has made a significant contribution – for well over two decades – to the local music scene, especially…

what comic book world do you live in. most of our laws have progressively been put in place to protect the members of society fairly, or at least that's the idea.

Really Rob that's incredibly naive.

So all that outrage over the power of lobby groups in the US, the…

It is currently illegal to copy a CD to you computer. Changes to the Copyright Act that are in progress will make that simple action legal.

is this a case of simon's

legislates to support those with the biggest voice and the most money to push their case.

or a…

Do you have MP3s on your PC? Have your transferred any CDs to your MP3 player? Unless you bought those MP3s…

Troll is as troll does.

I thought you'd be into this one mark cos its sci fi,

but its not mythical woodland creatures. sorry, maybe next time I can slip in a leprechaun or something for you. I know you like that shit.

Hey this is easy. Boring and no doubt irritating, but real easy. Heck, you could do…

Copyright is civil law, theft of real property is not. This has been explained here many times.

not asking you,
using lateral thinking, feel free to sit this one out.

blah blah blah

FFS, how hard is it to understand the difference between taking something and copying it?

FFS how hard is to understand the current laws. enforcing the current laws.
we don't have to make a distinction between taking and copying cos the current laws saw copying = illegal.
Its just un…

Sadly society often legislates to support those with the biggest voice and the most money to push their case.

what comic book world do you live in. most of our laws have progressively been put in place to protect the members of society fairly, or at least that's the idea.…

in the near future scientist perfect matter transportation.
it works on a similar structure as present day internet transfers data in that matter is transported through a network of channels run through service providers who allow you to transport physical items from one point to…

Society changes. Change with it or die. Don't expect society to legislate to support the dying model

If only that last sentence were true. Sadly society often legislates to support those with the biggest voice and the most money to push their case.

You'd just need to stick strong encryption into the packets, add a…

and only benefits the media industry.

it benefits society by enforcing law. rights of ownership. it isn't in societies interest to encourage the breach of it laws by ignoring wholesale infringement. part of this piracy thing is that its taking the piss of law and up till recently there appears…

and only benefits the media industry.

it benefits society by enforcing law. rights of ownership. it isn't in societies interest to encourage the breach of it laws by ignoring wholesale infringement. part of this piracy thing is that its taking the piss of law and up till recently there appears…

In the real world, if someone does something that costs them and benefits you, you pay for it.

in the real world business exploits are sometimes expected to take responsibility for the results of their product.
take cigarettes and the tax put on them to cover the health issues the…

but there is a healthy future out there for anyone that wants to grab it.

oh, well, when you put it like that.....
you lookin' to stake your claim in the new frontier partner?, since its all rivers full of gold for the takin' and all that.

unit sales in the US grew by 11%.

so that's a yes, they did meet and surpass projected figures then. I was asking a question, for clarification not making a statement, as indicated by the ? at the end of the sentence.

how do you explain the downturn in the…

so the expanding marketplace isn't relevant to it but the increase in the us and uk market place as would be expected from population increase is.

Surely you are not being serious Rob. In the midst of a financial downturn where a population grew in the US by about 1%,…

In the real world, if someone does something that costs them and benefits you, you pay for it.

in the real world business exploits are sometimes expected to take responsibility for the results of their product.
take cigarettes and the tax put on them to cover the health issues the…

good to see why you're so anti this too, cos it means extra work for you personally :) not that you're bias or anything

Doesn't mean any extra work for me. I'm well out of the ISP sphere, and I don't work in central IT services for the university so…

No it's plain unit sales as sold in the USA and the UK in 2008

so the expanding marketplace isn't relevant to it but the increase in the us and uk market place as would be expected from population increase is.
To accurately view the figures I suppose one has…

I did network engineer-y things.

that's good enough for me.
yelling "I'm smarter than you" without any background or explanation does little to convince me of your superior knowledge or infact any knowledge. addressing the points directly as cameron did adds weight to his argument, yelling troll adds no weight…

does that figure take into account things like expanding markets and population increase.

No it's plain unit sales as sold in the USA and the UK in 2008, from Soundscan and the BPI. Not a global figure. In those markets, unit sales rose. Part of the rise is due to…

He knows what he's talking about. He dreams about networks and protocols.

yet you explained the ins and outs of it better, acknowledged the points I raised and gave some background to them.

That said, the industry's shills have done their cause no assistance by pulling numbers out of their collective posterior to "prove" that "downloading is destroying the industry," to justify ever-more-draconian statutory enforcement of their business model.

You need to be fairly careful defining 'industry' as it's not as monlithicly or…

I linked to it earlier but unit sales of music are up around the world in 2008

does that figure take into account things like expanding markets and population increase.

total figures should go up each year as the world population expands and as previously untapped markets come on line…

So what you're saying is that you don't use a PC, you tap on a wire like MacGyver did!

Taught him everything he knows :P

That said I'm a firm believer that downloading has hurt the recording industry (although nowhere near the levels the IFPI would have you believe), but I'm also a subscriber to the idea that it's not an altogether bad thing.

I would hope that most copyright-reform advocates, as well as those…

I did network engineer-y things. Router configuration and management. Switch configuration and management. Connectivity management. Capacity planning and management. Traffic analysis. Also management of things like email, web and DNS servers. Things at layers one-through-four of the TCP/IP network model...

So what you're saying is that you don't use a…

any expansion on what you did at isp's matthew. as in describe the sort of things you were involved in.

I did network engineer-y things. Router configuration and management. Switch configuration and management. Connectivity management. Capacity planning and management. Traffic analysis. Also management of things like email, web and DNS…

Simon, we agree! Good god, I need a drink. ;-)

I kinda think we always did, you were just (unintentionally) misreading what I was saying. That said I'm a firm believer that downloading has hurt the recording industry (although nowhere near the levels the IFPI would have you believe),…

any expansion on what you did at isp's matthew. as in describe the sort of things you were involved in.

Well, I know Matthew, and I know his experience. I know of the work he's done for 2 major NZ ISPs and his networking prowess.

He knows what he's talking…

Your sarcasm-fu is pretty crap as well

seems to work on you though :)

Which is meaningless. I regularly hit my 10GB a month

I'm talking 50 – 80 gig.

eight of them in network engineering roles or related, including at major ISPs.

any expansion on what you did at isp's matthew. as in describe the sort of things you were involved in.
I ask cos I could technically say I was working in IT since 96 when I was…

As your Internet-fu doesn't appear to include the capability to use search engines, have one on me:

sorry, you mis understood me, I meant that your name calling has no impact on me, I want to be offended, but,.... for some reason it just seems meaningless. go figure huh?

its not going to solve anything.

Finally, you say something I can agree with.

its going to give a first indication of biggest downloaders be they of pirated material or legitimate. why would you say wtf to that. its obvious.

Which is meaningless. I regularly hit my 10GB a month…

And like it or not, you do meet the definition of troll.

and like it or not I can't seem to get excited by being called one, it means nothing to me, sorry, I wish I could be offended for you but its just a still word out of roll…

The numbers the RIAA pull out always go on about how big the problem is, but don't tend to actually BACK them up

I linked to it earlier but unit sales of music are up around the world in 2008. In dollar terms and CD terms sales are well down…

The movie industry had one of it's best years ever, and it's been the start of a recession. 2006 I think it was was one of their worst in recent years. They…

I did pull the figure 90% out my arse of course figuring 90% of people who use the net are not tech geeks, (perhaps its 85%). you'll of course know this by the numbers of brothers and cousins who ask you to…

You read and read and read and don't actually see a thing, it appears

.
actually I did miss the isp comment tucked away in your post, just like you missed many key points of where I'm discussing this from in mine, I'll point those out for you as they come…

eight of them in network engineering roles or related, including at major ISPs.

can you tell us what you did there?

Ah, due process bedamned, eh?

absolutely, its bollocks and I've said it a few times on different threads, but I'm not the one making it up, I'm observing,

What would you consider a correct way to do due process Cameron.
you notice in my comment you quoted I didn't say…

data usage.
yes there are exceptions to this, programmers and media industry regularly legitimately send high volumes through and shutting them down is bollocks but the latest word was warnings and asking for explanations.

Ah, due process bedamned, eh? Guilty until proven innocent...

& I argued your bittorrent comment above.

identifying those files which would be 90% of movie piracy would be a relatively small part of the work. getting the other 10% would be massive. applying it to music, even worse.

Ok, so someone's sharing a movie. You know what the name of it is cause when you search…

I didn't pick it up from your brief history but was there any experience in there of working at isp level?

You read and read and read and don't actually see a thing, it appears.

If you think you're raising my blood pressure, sorry to disappoint. I just get emphatic…

If "the media industry" wants it to happen, they can pay for it.

I imagine they will but you can't blame em for trying to plam it off onto someone else first.

It's not possible.

I've identified 2 things that are possible which you both failed to mention.

data usage.…

would not be borne by your industry

I already said I think it will be the film industry that will drive this. not my industry and I'm not part of my industry, I work outside it, this is nothing to do with me, I simple an interested observer intrigued by…