Larry went and lodged his referendum petition proposal.

A non-binding referendum asking the question whether referenda should be binding. Larry obviously has a sense of humour that we've missed seeing.

that a professional society of some kind makes a public announcement of a position means that the majority of people within that society agree with it.

In this case the thought was originally based on 'clin psychs I know', who are not many in number and work with violent criminals,…

Slightly off topic but fascinating to learn about the role of the infamous right wing blog commentator Dad4Justice in the current Christchurch murder case. Mr Burns was their praying family counsellor.

Yes, and I wonder if he might have learned something. Perhaps along the lines of, "just because CYF does…

My impression is if you chose a Clinical Psychologist at random you'd be unlikely to get on of those.

This kind of thinking seems to be quite prevalent – that a professional society of some kind makes a public announcement of a position means that the majority of people within…

What next? Jude Dobson in charge of Health restructuring?

um... John Banks in charge of Super Auckland

Oh for FUCK'S SAKE. Key has just appointed Nigel Latta to the group reviewing the child discipline law.

If you think that's bad, apparently he's now put TV builder/goofball "Cocksy" in charge of the $11b leaky homes debacle (no online source yet, it seems.)

This can't be true... can it?…

And a very interesting link to the awards, Lyndon.

I just wonder why NZ is having this debate in a sort of national vacuum when a lot of other countries have been there already.

Having got to reading the PM's press release, my actual reaction was to wonder what expertise a psychologist would have under the terms of reference – which seems to be about police/cypfs processes. Perhaps he's the one who gets to decide what level of physical physical correction should have…

Oh for FUCK'S SAKE. Key has just appointed Nigel Latta to the group reviewing the child discipline law.

Awesome! I hope that Latta can widen the group's terms of reference to include ESP, clairvoyance, and the survival of consciousness after death! Perhaps his findings will help police "sense" when an…

The Dunedin longitudinal study is quite hard to interpret on the effects of 'smacking' as tidy questions were not asked.

Which, as you'll know, doesn't stop world + dog from quoting it in pursuit of smacking arguments.

Mind you, the people who run that study don't seem averse themselves to…

RNZ report Baldock saying that Latta won't make any difference to the review because the terms of reference prevent him from doing what Baldock demands

Once more: What worse than a sore loser? A bad and graceless winner!

So, let us see if I've got this right: Baldock is all…

Good to see you bring this debate out on Media 7 russell. I greatly admired your restraint with Larry Baldock – I could see you were tempted to apply some good parental correction to the man who of course did not make any sense.

If you regularly dump on people,…

RNZ report Baldock saying that Latta won't make any difference to the review because the terms of reference prevent him from doing what Baldock demands – and which the confusingly worded referendum obviously meant…

Dude fancies himself as a skeptic, and yet was fooled by Sensing Murder.

Not. Impressed.

Oh for FUCK'S SAKE. Key has just appointed Nigel Latta to the group reviewing the child discipline law.

John Key wants this all to go away – and he wants a review to make it go away. Whom should he appoint to the groups for it to have any hope…

Oh for FUCK'S SAKE. Key has just appointed Nigel Latta to the group reviewing the child discipline law.

Put on yer Julie Andrews frock and sing along with John:
I have confidence in Latta
I have confidence in Hide
I have confidence that they can turn the tide
Besides, you…

Those are the words of a man, IMO, that fancies himself, rather more than is healthy.

Couldn't agree more. I, along with about 700 others in education went to see Mr Latta in Hastings last term expecting some ideas on how to deal with difficult children. What we got was…

Oh for FUCK'S SAKE. Key has just appointed Nigel Latta to the group reviewing the child discipline law.

Lawlz. I should be outraged at the triumph of media over substance, but I don't have the energy.

(At least he seems in favour of non-smacking forms of discipline? And thinks solo…

Does that mean that a use of force that has an effect that is more than transitory and trifling, but is nevertheless needed to prevent harm to the child (from "a" above) would be unlawful?

Were Borrow's amendment adopted during the committee of the whole stage – yes.

So…

Mikaio's defense lawyer, Ted Faleauto, said she had pleaded guilty to what she had done but denied causing the head injury.

Mr Faleauto said his client was not guilty of failing to provide for her son because she did what she thought was appropriate at the time.

Does that mean that a use of force that has an effect that is more than transitory and trifling, but is nevertheless needed to prevent harm to the child (from "a" above) would be unlawful?

Sorry. I get the question now.

Were Borrow's amendment adopted during the committee of the…

Does that mean that a use of force that has an effect that is more than transitory and trifling, but is nevertheless needed to prevent harm to the child (from "a" above) would be unlawful?

No.

"a" above is from the current law (i.e. Sue Bradford's law).

The bit that…

it was drafted in the negative "any force which has effect which are more than transitory and trifling is by definition unreasonable".

Does that mean that a use of force that has an effect that is more than transitory and trifling, but is nevertheless needed to prevent harm to the…

The problem with the Borrows amendment was that while it looked reasonable, its wording would have allowed, say, hitting a baby in the head, so long as its effect was transitory and trifling.

No more than the current law, which allows hitting a baby in the head for any of…

And there doesn't seem to be much education around this, except for those most violent of parents.

That's a really good point, and I appreciate your frontline perspective, Jackie.

Baldock touched on it in the Media7 discussion when he said that "all that positive parenting stuff" was hard. But his…

The idea that it might be okay so long as you leave no bruises is a bit creepy for me.

Me too

WHY THE FLAMING FRAK ARE YOU DOING IT?

Exactomondo.

what to do if you're angry and you don't WANT to smack but can't think or don't know of any alternatives.…

Boscawen was asked by a sharp young interviewer on bFM to define "transitory and trifling", after he'd repeatedly used the phrase. He couldn't. He lost his thread and then eventually offered that it was a smack that wouldn't cause any pain or "concern" to the child.

And that's where I've…

Was I naive? I don't know. I'm normally healthily cynical, y'know. If they are going to have the law, I do think it needs clarifying.

Jackie, Boscawen's bill is essentially a re-run of Chester Borrows' amendment, which sought to define an acceptable level of hitting.

The problem with the Borrows…

Yeah, but then you get into the whole "what is a light smack?" thing. And if you want messy....

And also how "amending the wording" isn't changing it :)

Do we need to change the law to deal with that non-enforcement? Or what about jaywalking?

And the example brought up before, argy bargy during most contact sports. Every little push and shove not covered by the rules of the game is technically an assult.

The thing is that Larry…

I didn't get the impression he wanted to change it, Lucy, just to amend the wording. He may have been lying, because, you know, he's a politician. See, this is why I didn't vote in the bloody referendum. It's all tricky and grey, and tres difficile.

Speaking of lying, here's…

Illegal downloading – that's barely ever enforced against, shall we legalise it?

Well! Now you mention it...

More seriously, I think the idea that the law doesn't involve judgement calls by the police, by the courts, etc is rather naive. There are lots and lots of laws that aren't totally…

The half-dozen general-purpose offences the police use at their discretion, like disturbing the peace?

And there's certainly a serious argument to have about whether the application of Police and judicial discretion is, shall we say politely, somewhat uneven. But I don't really think Larry and Co. want to have that…

I agreed that there was no point having a law that, in the majority of cases, wasn't going to be enforced strictly (ie parent gives child light smack = breaking the law, even if no-one ever does anything about it).

But consider the range and number of laws which are…

Phuck the NZ Geographic Board. These parasites should get real jobs and leave NZ history alone.

Comedy gold.

That's even funnier than Cactus Kate's "Incidentally Keith, I have not finished with you yet" comment.

Both are classic, though.

I doubt he'd view those as mutually exclusive motivations. And my one word to add is "eyeliner".

I'll see you that "eyeliner" and raise you a... aww, good call. I fold.

I'm gobsmacked at Lhaws' response, natch. The only motivation I can think of outside "overt racism" is grandstanding.

I doubt he'd view those as mutually exclusive motivations. And my one word to add is "eyeliner".

Perhaps they would enjoy a bit of Andrew Williams ?

Wanganui isn't that bad.

That's a great clip, thanks! Complete with fighting words from Hekia Parata! "He needs to grow up".

Is it just a spasm of latent heterosexuality, or does Scotty Morrison (a pretty tasty piece of eye-candy himself) totally flirt with her every time she's on?

Will it be days or hours…

i) A gang problem so great that specific gang patch byelaws are required (dubious merit notwithstanding).
ii) A community that votes for Lhaws.
iii) Intelligent local debate run by 10 year olds ?

Perhaps they…

I didn't watch it and I'm not linking to it.

Will it be days or hours before a Herald editorial is published bitching about about…

You should check out the Te Karere report from last night.

That's a great clip, thanks! Complete with fighting words from Hekia Parata! "He needs to grow up".

I just mean to say that it was kind of a distraction from the central point that Laws scored an epic fail in Level 1 Acting Like An Adult.

It does make you wonder how many times he'll fail the course before he gets excluded. Good honest citizens are paying…

Yeah, I understand. Actually, I figure there are enough people on Lhaws' case, and I'd like to extend some credit to Ngarui and her classmates. They've got me inspired to chase up on those maori lessons again.

You should check out the Te Karere report from last night. To say…

I just mean to say that it was kind of a distraction from the central point that Laws scored an epic fail in Level 1 Acting Like An Adult.

Yeah, I understand. Actually, I figure there are enough people on Lhaws' case, and I'd like to extend some credit to…

As for his enablers down in the Kiwibog: they really do deserve a good hard dose of parental correction right up the shitter

And the award for PAS pithy insult of the year goes to......

Oh, the Kiwiblog comments are way more angry than that (they're too fucking looney to be depressing).

What is depressing is that it's another example of a sensible original post degenerating into a free-range troll farm at Warp 9.

...hence my parting paragraph. I'm not trying to excuse Lhaws' actions…

And I imagine it's more interesting & appropriate in maori than in english. From what little I know, maori grammar lends some valuable nuance that doesn't carry into english very well.

I say again: CHILDREN. There's nothing in those e-mails to cause a sane adult to lose it like Laws did.…

And I imagine it's more interesting & appropriate in maori than in english. From what little I know, maori grammar lends some valuable nuance that doesn't carry into english very well.

Definitely – just think about the importance of the challenge in powhiri. It sounds much more aggressive, rendered literally, than…

roarprawn's translation

I think that's a great letter! It's exactly the kind of letter I can imagine an 11-year-old thinking up in the context of their project. I love the end:

So, the challenge has been made – respond!

And I imagine it's more interesting & appropriate in maori than in…

Super-depressing comments section ahoy.

Oh, the Kiwiblog comments are way more angry than that (they're too fucking looney to be depressing).

I really liked this one:

Phuck the NZ Geographic Board. These parasites should get real jobs and leave NZ history alone.

Comedy gold.

But then this one, from "James",…

Super-depressing comments section ahoy.

Oy... Someone should tell these people that the last thing you do with a toy-chucking infant with reward them with attention and encouragement.

FFS, Laws has thrown a prolonged and very public tantrum at children over four months after the event. And he'd be the first…

roarprawn's translation

Super-depressing comments section ahoy.

I'm actually wondering if there's something seriously wrong with him.

Narcissistic personality disorder?

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:[1]

1.…

I'm wondering if it's something to do with the amount of time there's a microphone in front of his face.

Remember kids, brain-dead blather is always preferable to dead air in the talkback game.

I'm actually wondering if there's something seriously wrong with him.

Diagnosis: Verbal Diarrhoea? A must have on one's CV for teh radio ring in shows. A pathological dislike for anything he hasnt thought of?

They were the ones afraid of it and made sure they didn't get into situations where…

Laws had to have the school children's letters translated, because he knows less about what he's talking about than they do. That might explain his absurd outburst.

But Steven, if they were being properly taught, they would have written to him in English!

I'm actually wondering if there's something seriously wrong with him.

I'm wondering if it's something to do with the amount of time there's a microphone in front of his face.

Four children died in the fire, which the firemen said might have…

It was their *politicisation* he held to be child-abuse.

But definitely linked to their kura kaupapa attendance – he seemed to me to imply that sending them there was in itself politicising them.

The poor bugger. Insult to injury seeing his mother being splashed around the media, and him not wanting to say anything, and why would he?

Indeed, Jackie. But there's something else that really pisses me off about outfits like this holding up people like Jimmy Mason as victims who've been…

You even need to ask?

Where Laws is concerned, I frequently reach for the comforting possibility that I've had a psychotic break. No such luck.

I was shaving during that interview so might have misheard, but did Laws express shock and horror at "children being exploited by adults to advance their political agenda"?

You even need to ask?

Leggy, are you sure that's not a chip on your shoulder, because that really is a tenuous criticism

Possibly; after all, he had just gloated about hosting the (centrally funded) World Cup...

But I just thought there was no need for the last bit.

I still buy Private Eye on…

Speaking of schools and punishment, Lhaws just opined on Morning Report that sending kids to kura kaupapa is child abuse. I'd say it was self-satire if he didn't sound so serious.

I was shaving during that interview so might have misheard, but did Laws express shock and horror at "children…

@ TracyMac. I just thought he flipped pretty quickly from saying Auckland is NZ's most interesting city to saying he was not parochial.

In the space of about a minute.

Horrors.

Leggy, are you sure that's not a chip on your shoulder, because that really is a tenuous criticism.

"Schools going to hell in handbasket" "Wild students intimidate teachers" "Third school invasion this hour – view the excitement on Youtube"…

Metro should be Auckland, and proudly so. In its heyday (WR) that was its charm (and strangely, more likely to be bought by a Wgtner)

Indeed — and I think that was in large part because, love it or hate it, Metro had a very strong editorial POV from the…

Metro should be Auckland, and proudly so. In its heyday (WR) that was its charm (and strangely, more likely to be bought by a Wgtner)

But the "we try not to be parochial" line is a bit shabby.

That editor from the Metro on the Media 7 show.

2 minutes on why Auckland is grat, and then he has the cheek to say he's not parochial.

Um, if Bevan Rapson doesn't have access to a complete run of his own magazine he should take founding editor Warwick Roger…

In the space of about a minute.

Metro needs to be proud of Auckland; understandable raison d'etre, but the post-match platitude seemed a bit ... forced.

That editor from the Metro on the Media 7 show.

2 minutes on why Auckland is grat, and then he has the cheek to say he's not parochial.

Both points valid, but badly mixed.

When did the law change re: corporal punishment?

1989, apparently, for corporal punishment in schools. And, of course, 2007 for protecting children from corporal punishment in the home.

Words really fail me when I think upon Larry Baldock. Fortunately plenty of others here seem to be on his case.

Larry Baldock: Because parents have the divinely appointed right to beat their children.

Sue Bradford: Okay, so we disagree on that, but this bill has the support of all the child welfare agencies…

Figures from the Ministry of Education show a 88 per cent increase in suspensions of eight-year-olds from 2000 to 2008 ...
...

"It is significant that as schools have removed corporal punishment, schools have become more violent," Family First national director Bob McCoskrie said today."

When did the law change…

And somehow the sky didn't fall in when we got rid of it.

You think? Family First have news for you!

But – people intervened to help him. And it was worthy of reporting in a way sympathetic to the victim. Neither may have happened previously. Max Call, there was widespread school violence…

I remember back when Iraena Asher "disappeared", closely followed by another media-created "disappearance" (a simple murder, really), there were workmates of mine who were scared…

Just as I would be indigent if I got stopped in the 50 zone. I'm not going to because the cops use their judgement but in other cases I'd get a ticket.

Although I suppose it's another thing a police officer could pull you up on if they weren't sure…

Also, does he support caning as a part of good parenting?

It wasn't that long ago that caning was considered an indispensible part of schooling.
And somehow the sky didn't fall in when we got rid of it.

I would be indigent if I got stopped in the 50 zone.

Gosh, you must be really hard up. If it ever happens, we'll hand round the hat for you.

What does Dybvig actually do these days?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud-ENw4NiOM

His books are great reading too.

Like I said, there's a great deal that can't be said. I'd appreciate readers who might know some of it not saying it here ...

Mum's the word. To be precise: Dumb's the word.

Should be good.
What does Dybvig actually do these days?

He's with Mediaworks, he's something of a gopher for them. Last summer he hosted a lot of shows, and he'll fill in for absentees. He also does the sports wrap etc on Sunrise.

I was never a fan of Dybvig…

The law is different now, though, and every abuse could be a new case. If Timaru Lady is still at it, she could be busted. She won't even have the referendum as an excuse, since that was limited to smacking.

Like I said, there's a great deal that can't be…

The suppression of many details in this case is very unfortunate – it could, after all, show…

Where is Larry's head really at?

I know, I know and it explains what he has for brains.
If I were one of his kids I wouldn't let him near my children.

there was an audible gasp in the room when he told me he smacked his grandchildren.

Isn't that assault?
I mean, that is "a smack as part of grand parental correction" nobody was saying that shouldn't be a criminal offence, In fact 88% of respondents didn't say that. So lock…

Also, does he support caning as a part of good parenting?

Perhaps those media figures who aided and abetted him in this sordid misrepresentation could redeem themselves by applying a little investigative rigour…

Tracey Barnett and John Dybvig (who should hit the road as a double act)

Should be good.

What does Dybvig actually do these days?

And I totally support the guys right to stay out of the limelight.

Yes. And I do hope that other media who might now pick up the story do the same. In that sense, the suppression order does help protect him, as odious as some of its other implications are.