Yes, it seem everyone's a hooker these days.

Even a figure that high depends on interpretation, given it took 4 counts to reach that many. Anyone who ranked this option anything but 5th is counted in that final number.

Also, voters were asked to rank their preferences between…

no realistic chance of change. Aussies get a free pass to beat us to it (thanks Johnboy). #meh

It’s……
Something unexpected….

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/the-flag-debate/75026794/live-new-zealand-flag-referendum-result

Yo Rich m8, its JK ;-) chk out my cool flg vid on the FB. Go ABs!

But no, that's…

I'm still saving to buy a green car.

The context is self explanatory... Do you want to change the flag? means changing it to something other than the existing one... simple.

Andrew Little said if the answer was no, then the money set aside for the 2nd referendum won't be spent.

If it's yes, then the winner of the five designs will go up against the current flag early next year.

"Question One in the 1992 Referendum
The first question asked voters if they wished to retain FPP or change electoral systems."

Compare with

"The first question would ask voters if they wished to retain the flag or change it."

Au contraire, how can you have a meaningful vote on "do you want to change the flag?" if there's no context of what it would change to? I would change it to some designs, I wouldn't to others.…

Who recalls the fabulous Freudian slip last election when Key celebrated the fact that NZ was a “Multi-National Country” rather than multi-cultural?

Perhaps it's another area for fruitful cooperation with the Greens, after all they think…

This has been a stuff up from the get go.
Depends what you think the intent was. Seen much discusssion about housing, jobs or the exchange rate lately?

at last!

I know. I'll see your Trevor Mallard and raise you one Andrew Little.

That video must be wrong then because that is not what it says.
Labour's position has always been Yes/No vote first, the only sensible approach. National's way is just bollocks and…

http://www.inthehouse.co.nz/video/39828

Labour's position is clear. It is now the same as National and the Greens. Because that's how they voted.

From the Herald's recent fawning editorial:
"But at least John Key had a twinkle in his eye when he did an about-face on Red Peak"
Someone appears to have substituted "twinkle in his eye" for "hair up his arse".

And I'm still trying to see where Labour MP's are trashing the Greens that apparently everything in The Herald says they are…

While my dislike for Red Peak runs about as deep as the tectonic plates that don't form the supposed story behind the flag, including it in the referendum was the right decision.

Democracy does sometimes win. And…

See what happens when you rush things?.

That’s a bold spin.

A flag designer who dipped out on the shortlist claims to have conned the Red Peak petition, signing up as broadcasters Mike Hosking, Duncan Garner and Paul Henry and NZ First leader Winston Peters.

Grant…

One of the defining moments in John Key’s rise to popularity as opposition leader was when he made a deal with Helen Clark to support the Bradford smacking amendment. Key ‘rescued’ Clark, much to the outrage of National Party partisans, but he also transformed himself from…

the Greens have consistently supported the flag process from the beginning (while trying to improve it, as is their way).

That's obviously not Labour's position. Big deal. They're different parties, so they disagree. And if Labour were adults, they'd accept that and move on…

Has even a single Maori leader publicly supported Red Peak and agreed with the "Maori aspects" of it, or has this Maori story just been made up by liberal Pakeha…

Constitutionally NZ/Aotearoa is bi cultural, composed of tangata whenua and manuhiri. And given that this constitutional fact is disputed and dishonoured I would say we aren't yet post colonial.

If you subscribe to the theory that a flag defines a nation

Are we a bicultural society or are we a multicultural society?
are we a colonial society or are we postcolonial?
are we something else?

i don't know, i don't know enough to know. I know…

... Looking over Carol Green's long list linked to by Lilith upthread, there were at least 10 designs already submitted that were very obviously better than 35 of the 40 on the long list!

Are you suggesting a flag that evolves over time, printed on some kind of intelligent fabric that alters colour and shape with seasons ...

Nope. But apparently because that was the way it was done 500 years ago we have to do it that way now.

Wouldn’t that depend on how people rank their choices in the preferential vote? If everyone who ranks either flag first ranks the other immediately after (possibly not a reliable assumption), then all of those votes…

The T-shirt analogy is false.

With the T-shirt you are the only person wearing it, you are not deciding for the entire population which T-shirt they will wear.

With the T-shirt you are spending your personal income not the income of the entire country.

Bad analogy is…

Early on I wasn’t averse to debating and…

You would think so. They can't seem to resist the prospect of publicity, even the bad…

Who by? Toby Manhire Inc?

In a world where corporate mass manipulation is coming out of our ears, this was anything but.

Personally, up until Russel Norman’s seppuku I was 100% likely to have given the Greens my party vote in 2017, I’m less than enamoured with what I’ve seen over the last two months, my position is better expressed in the Gordon Campbell article that Deborah…

Yes would consider those two but it is a matter of finding them made up into proper quality flags, which can also be quite expensive. Not sure whether they would…

I guess it's the professionalisation of this stuff. I had a Forest & Bird collector come to the door once. I stated outright that I wasn't going to sign…

Has anyone asked what they are going to do with the 1.7 million pieces of paper that have been printed for the referendum.

I understand that this cost (potentially in the area of $500k) may have been avoided if the PM didn't drag his…

Can I suggest getting ‘Laser Kiwi’ and the Black & White ‘Girl in Profile with Silver Fern Ponytail’. Just from the time capsule angle I think that would round out your collection nicely.

Yes, it’s a bit of an investment (two Red Peaks: one to stash, one…

He reckons that as the referendum(s) near, Peters will stir up the Grey Power sector of the electorate and really hype them up against it.…

This was part of Labour's proposed bill.

So why ask them twice, if the objective is not to give people two opportunities to say no, and only one to say yes?

It satisfies me because I don’t like any of the alternatives presented and want the status quo. If on the other hand you want one of the alternatives then Labour’s proposal didn’t alter the outcome except that any change could be…

Emphasis added.

That satisfies you if you want the existing alternative.…

The Greens were presented with the option of either showing solidarity with Labour’s hypothetical proposal which could have…

If Labour…

It's hard not to be ... a well-paid flag panel talking to empty halls around the country (I would have gone to my local meeting ... if I'd known it was on! And I'm one of the well-informed.)

A longlist of…

That's been a recurring theme in online debates over the past few weeks. I've lost count of the number of people who have said "Anybody could get 50,000 signatures,…

In one fell swoop the Greens’ Gareth Hughes has (a) rescued Prime Minister John Key from his personal flag fiasco (b) got the government out of a tight corner of its own making (c) agreed to vote with National to…

Quite agree. I think I'll start a social media campaign for the flag I like and get another one added to the referendum. I expect JK to be…

https://twitter.com/lyndabrendish/status/646843438197927936

https://twitter.com/Superpencil_/status/646848091266531328

So, as disappointing as it is, it’s fairly straightforward that…

I blame the Queen of Australia for that one.

I'll vote to keep our current…

That's a good point, three Red Peak flags make a Christianity symbol, 4 make a swastika. Is New Zealand First comparing Christians to Nazis as they are closer to the flag?

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1379093286/899/9164899.jpg

'Flag face' may have legs but isn't as nifty as Blair Parkes' excellent 'Brick Face' to my way of thinking...
;- )

Nice exercise in an association fallacy. What was someone saying yesterday about writing for The Sun ? Why don't we bring out…

Perhaps we need…

I'd be keen to know if real people…

Wheres simply strategically placing four red peak flags produces a very clear swastika.

I never liked the red peak flag for the simple reason I dislike…

*sigh* Yeah, probably.

I noticed that and I guess I was concerned for a moment. Then I wondered if this is something that anyone globally is going to notice or care about besides New Zealanders who…

I am pretty sure that is the end of any talk of "Red Peak"....

Ha!

We were in Johnsonville Mall last Saturday and my daughter noticed the Rugby World Cup decorations. She pointed at a flag and said, "Look, Daddy! The Australian flag!" A couple of minutes…

The biggest issue that still gives me…

Yes, I agree the possibility of fraud in e-voting is much less of a concern in this sort of referendum. Or any referenda initiated by the public since they are non-binding anyway.

Of course, all this debate solely surrounds the…

I was not previously aware that Elizabeth Windsor (or is it Elizabeth Regina?) was Queen of Toyota? Cool! :)

I have always found it a little strange or incongruous that despite being the…

There’s a case to provide alternatives for people who genuinely can’t use a ballot box, but to simply…

You should be proud... not just of the clarity of your offspring's observations, but also of your…

From the 'out of the mouths of the sucklings' file.. one of my offspring sees the whole flag changing thing as akin to painting the mailbox while the termites are eating the house.

I watched the youtube video you posted, I assume you read the Berkman Center Research document I linked to. I am not suggesting denying you the right to vote via ballot box, it’s that creating the option for people with disabilities or…

I don’t think that is generally true, at least among those who have thought about it. In the US, companies have already suggested how to vote, there no reason for next step to not be verifying how employees voted. It would be…

I am, just for the record. I don't mind telling people what I think of an issue including the flag stuff, or at least what I want them to believe I think of an issue. How I actually vote is none of…

Fuck no! Online voting sounds like a good idea but in reality it’s a complete disaster. If we go with that we might as well just give…

True that, fortunately our nutritional needs are already covered by the newspapers.

at least you weren't tempted to eat them, because our food prices are…

Well I suspect the F U J.K vote will be extremely popular with those suffering through 7/9yrs…..although likely he…

Really excited to see the enthusiasm for Red Peak – seems like none of the other four have much of a buzz about them.

Come the deciding referendum, I'm not sure how I'll vote if Red Peak is the preferred alternative. I like it, but I'm not sure that I like it enough to…

ah, that's way better than I could manage, thanks

I will adopt the same voting…

The process is outlined in section 6 of the Flag Referendums Act. It says:

voters express a first preference for 1 option and may express second and further preferences for other options

So just ranking one option will be a valid vote.

Yes. We're not Australians, and we don't try and strap the chicken by requiring you to preference everything.

I think so. We need some advice on this.

Can I just say WTF?

i also enjoyed the contrast between the Green and Labour approach, where one used it as an opportunity to try get one over on Key, and the other just ensured that the people got more choice...