It would be nice to think that economists had become more humble about the limitations of their field.

Yet economic myths (that tax cuts lead to growth, or magically "pay for themselves") continue…

"You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, and that is just long enough to become POTUS."

Why does that feel so.....believable......when you consider practically any political system?.

The "Political Lie" of the moments is the asset sales agenda and the lack of credible opposition. It is a worry that 2/3 rd of NZ voters are against asset sales yet National appear to…

Very interesting post, but I really hope Dr. Edwards isn't telling his political clients that it's somehow dirty pool to hold politicians to account for their own public statements and voting records. As I said way up-thread, I think folks are…

loved to go down the pub after and hear the rest.

Yep I would have liked to see it become more free flowing.
I blame time.

Absolutely agree. It felt as though we were just getting started. I would have loved to go down the pub after and hear the rest.

The moment with the hammer was enough. Still wincing...

In almost half a century of living in this country I can count on two hands (and with a finger or two to spare) the number of MPs found guilty of lying to Parliament. And if we’re talking about premeditated, shamefaced…

Thank you!

We did drop a Jose video track from the end of the show so the discussion could keep on running, but…

FFS, Steve, how about we hold the sodding Labour Party responsible since the authorisation statement was in the name of the party secretary-general and gave the address of the Labour's national…

Well, I thought the person responsible would be the owner of the site but, apparently, mentioning that is "Offensive". Go figure.
Was going to link to Labours embarrassing effort but, with luck, it will be gone by lunchtime.

So if lies are the ball bearings that keep the machine ticking along.
Are we now in the new paradigm where we dont need oil?
And lying to a relly about their attire, or feeding your mut bikkies and matters…

Otherwise known as a religious cult.

Pretty awful isn't it. Dunno who approved that as "good campaigning".

Or spectacularly stupid. Either way, not a good reflection.

I would say that to their credit, they do seem to believe their own rhetoric.

The BRT is endlessly dull on this.

They keep saying that we stopped reforming when Lange had a cup of tea, and Australia just kept on truckin with…

I think you're talking about quite different things.

The neolibs are always implying that we'd become more like Australia by surrendering regulation and taking a brutal approach toward labour…

So why aren't we all moving to Australia? Oh wait, we are.

Note: Gross exaggeration, without any factual references, in keeping with the theme of this thread.

I would call bullshit on that. The first Australians are still having their land grabbed for the benefit of the powerful.
And what a great deal they got "Give us your mineral rights and…

The arrangement has extended over decades of different governments, so no, that's not it. Doubt anyone would call John Howard a lefty.

Or propose a more ambitious and fair alternative. That's what you're missing thanks to a couple of years of piss-weak opposition and incompetent media, I'm afraid.

By comparison, Australia found ways to ensure everyone shares the responsibility and benefits of…

typo

Yep nah but, 1975? and drawing parallels with 2005. Boy is that a long bow. As I recall, and we've been over this before somewhere here. There was more going on in that election that voters swayed by a super scheme portrayed as…

typo (glad it's not just me what makes em)

I’m relieved to have discovered I'm not the only one who thinks so.

I make reference to the 1975 dismantling of the compulsory super scheme that secured National a win in 2005 and the over reach of WFF that secured the Labour win in the 2005 election.

Hang on, how does that work?

Note the word "Trim" entering the media in the last few weeks. What's the bet it was focus-grouped then deliberately spread via coherent talking points and compliant journos..I also love how the financial press prefers the word "Ease" to "Loss"

Working For Families is essentially a subsidy for employers so they don't need to lift their game to produce higher sustainable wages.

engaging with the rest of the world whilst smartening…

Well said. Also the age of the rapid information freeway. Huges case being a good…

You can do more with less – is my personal favorite lie.

cthulhu!

I make reference to the 1975 dismantling of the compulsory super scheme that secured National a win in 2005 and the over reach of WFF that secured…

And what would I know, I only see that the National Party get nasty all the time (and their business is thriving).Have you…

In the first Leaders debate Clark dropped rather haughtily what I thought was a rehearsed line, something…

Two and a half years of polls speak for themselves..

The personal attacks on Key detract from the issue and saves Key from having to address any issue – he merely has to rise above the personal attack and leave matters there.

Oh, I forget Labour…

quote it, you mean :)

The Singh/Papatoetoe vote factory will be interesting when it goes to court.

Labour’s personal attacks on Key’s…

They make life sooo much easier!

You should be so lucky,
I am trying to chat online, solve sky decoder problems for the olds on the landline, send pixts of rearranged furniture to the north on…

I'm going to use that.

That's it, lower the tone of the neighbourhood... ;-)
Meanwhile in quotesville...

The main parliamentary parties are now devoted to the same economic policies – socialism for the rich,…

At least two-thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religous or political ideas.
Aldous Huxley.

Only a…

Never mind the mac:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_AZBQEvhYc

Only a day late, XKCD nails it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyE4CLM0QIA

ETA: So I go away for a few hours and you guys are all quoting Nietzsche and Keynes to each other ...
Umm, yeah, so there goes that positive ethos we had going.

Lolz.

– Hitler.

Equally, the pursuit of the lie can just as much be tribally driven: ie, the fact of the lie is relished and exploited for tribal reasons, regardless of how innocuous or irrelevant it may be.

It may be naive in…

That's all I've got

I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.

Neitzsche.

Or Jonathan Swift?

Yep.

Loved the episode...

I thank you for justifying my procrastination.

“If circumstances change so that a promise must be broken, does that make a lie of the original promise?”

Keynes: “When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”

Burke would agree that intention or objective takes precedence over words: “Your representative…

That's what gets my goat. Metaphor and other tools of political discourse I'm fine with, along with genuine errors or differences in perception – but not folk making shit up when they know better.

Loved the episode of the associated lecture series about Pacific navigation when Radio NZ broadcast it.

Liars lie because it works – they both lay out a fiction in which they place themselves as the central character, and their audience welcome their lies.

I am for…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxifmyYcOws&feature=related

yeahnah

And yet the data from the OECD rankings show exactly the reverse. Countries with higher taxation are better in every way and by every measure.

We should be demanding to be taxed more!

That 'conventional wisdom' didn't happen on its own. We've had several decades of concerted political messaging from the right (both inside and outside parliament) that taxes…

Two very good people, I believe — one of whom Russell is going to sitting very close to this evening.…

“we are only concerend with what the voter/public thinks is at election time”.

Shit I think that's the working thesis for the whole political establishment. So one man saying it doesnt make much of a case against him.
Where's a modern- day Ashoka when you need one.

I love the Michael Cullen line/position that was something along the lines of, "we are only concerend with what the voter/public thinks is at election time".

That is honesty.

http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=6072

It involves a Green Party candidate for the NY-26 race in the US, manning the phones as a volunteer for the Republican candidate. The whole thing may of course be lies, but still.

“Um,…

Won't ever know what? laying it on people to prove a negative is an old political trick, yes?

Wonder if politicians do any better?

The role of the opposition and the media is to call the government…

True, I had a hostel-mate while we were studying it who…

I remember Peters repeatedly being asked "Yes" or "No"? and he would make a great game of choosing neither and merely stating his opinion which was more often than not nothing…

I'm at a school in Auckland and we have a broadband connection for 2,400 students and 200 staff. Emphasis on "a". That's…

I remember the transition too. Webcrawler, Alta Vista and Lycos. Them were the days. Except if you really needed to find something. And then there was Dogpile. Apparently, there still is.

People are team players but don't like to think that their choice of team might be a bit more arbitrary than one would prefer.

I sometimes get the impression from people that they don’t want to be bothered by the details of actually how the country is run. So they don’t much care what the politicians are actually saying. Instead they focus of “how the politician sounds”.

So here we sit round the high…

I think BackRub was totally internal, but I do remember using Google on Stanford servers soon after it hit the wild. Made AltaVista look like a…

Right. Back to lying politicians. Though I think RB should use…

If he hadn't uttered the swift bullshit about other scientists offering opposing evidence I might believe you. But this was a calculated, rehearsed, bad faith approach just like climate change deniers use.

There is nothing innocent about it.…

I reckon we hear them, just not always going to bother commenting on all of it when the likes of Kiwibog or Te Standard are bound to be hammering the point quite…

So he was confirming the brand recognition? Yes, I think you're probably right. And then he couldn't defend the slogan he'd…

Thank you Bart. ;-)

I think his smile vanished when he suddenly realised what he had been saying. To him "100% pure" was a label that has been applied to NZ. It's a trademark for NZ.…

For the past 20 years I've listened to politicians say they'll increase growth by supporting research and innovation ... liars every one of them ... red or blue

I vote for Lilith

Reflecting on this further, Google has also made it harder to lie. Certainly in a sustainable sense.

Google, making lying unsustainable since 1998.*

* Google tells me they had something called ‘BackRub’ on Stanford servers in 1996. BackRub? For…

We mean what Key meant. Nothing.

heh, the first example you used was a yes/no. They occur everywhere. Narrowing down from many choices using multiple yes/noes. Science doesn't need funky logic, the old stuff still works.

Key simply isn't concerned about Truth there. The actual state of the rivers is completely beside the point. 'You've got your academics, and there are others.'

Whether or not there really are 'others' is beside the point.

That line…

His smile vanished when he realised where the interviewer was going :-)

And of course NZ isn’t 100% pure. Only a very silly person would try to claim…

I sometimes get the impression from people that they don't want to be bothered by the details…

Yay for journos who press the point!! At least long enough for a lying politician to dig a good deep hole.

we basically expect that elected members will take liberties with the truth when they speak to us,

Do "we" do this? Or somehow have elected members given themselves the permission to do this lying thing. Im just not sure where the blame lies, if blame is to be apportioned such.…

This really fascinates me. I read something by Brendan Nyhan referring to “symbolic beliefs” (mostly wrt contemporary US right-wing propaganda such as Obama’s religion, & death-panels). Do you have some other suggestions of where I can read more?…

And made knowing nothing almost feasible.

Google has taken all the fun out of being a knowitall.

Classic example – "I didn't meet (or connive with) the Brethren". Doesn't seem to have harmed Key or Joyce's subsequent careers though. And lo, up pops the unrepentent Brash.

I'd like to see the show focus on…

Proof by contradiction was my favorite in maths too. Assume something,…

A web of lies is much more fragile than a web of truth. On lie unpicked in the right place can bring the whole thing down. Truth is extremely relevant, if…

How can you tell if a policy is working? Run a trial

She sat to-night revolving, as she was wont, the scenes of the day, her lips often curling with amusement at the oddities to which her fancy added fresh drollery: ** people were so ridiculous…

Hell yeah! It is one of the most fun things about science, coming up with possibilities and constructing them as hypotheses that then get tumbled by reality. Or in other words we create a lie and then go ahead and prove…

Sure! Let's vote on which is which :)

I think the relevant philospher here might be Harry Frankfurt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

Politicians often don't really care about the Truth with regard to statements. They aren't really trying…

'Did you know those captured suspects…

I'd like some evidence to back this up, please.

Maybe just the name of two MPs who have suffered "real consequences" for misleading the house. Or even the names of the last to…

Especially in the face of so many others who'll happily contradict honest claims with incompetent claims or claims reliant on incomplete information, or simply lies. It's a hard…

The naked truth?

Seriously, I get the impression that the for many politicians they may not even know what a lie actually is any more. As Ben says never saying anything clear is one strategy but even that can become a lie by omission. I just get…

The Road to Damascus was also a lie. Just sayin'. Unhelpfully. Carry on.

I think the habit of never saying anything clear serves them much better. Lying is for amateurs.

Case in point: Catching Up With Australia. Complete bullshit, but the voters lapped it up.

Fortunately, people forget the caveats just as easily as they forget the lies.

And Key and McCully

Actually, Lilith, I'd agree with you…

The political lies…

But there's a grey area where promises are made, in the full understanding that circumstances will change, allowing the promise to "legitimately" be abandoned.

I’d say the latter, but here’s where I think people’s patience ends – and should. There is nothing wrong…

Indeed. Imagine if they formed a consultancy.

Probably make a good sitcom too.