with

without

Ta.

with

without

Consider Fuckwit-Am... sorry, Irish-Americans and their often so-simplified-it's-bullshit view of Ireland and their largesse directed at the IRA...

@ rogerd,
You went too far. I must insist that you retract this statement, not for your political views (it's a very glib reading of the historical situation, but each to his…

Essentially it sounds as if she didn't trust you enough and that makes perfect sense given that both of you will obviously have very different cultural conditioning.

I'm with Ben here, Charles. You almost make it look like Ben's fault for being insensitive, when the more obvious interpretation is that…

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10458262

[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Metal_Jacket| Papillon Soo Soo as Da Nang Hooker: This character is a prostitute…

I am sure that if one language student is abused on the way home, all their friends hear about it

let alone some thugs forcing into their flat and assaulting them.

"welcome to new zealand"... not.

Indeed. And you don't personally have to be victimised by a racist act to be intimidated. If your mate is attacked, or you just hear that someone in your social circle has been victimised, that can have a powerful effect. Overt violence and…

Beside the point though; I think the original comment was misread. Anjum commented on the annoying flak from her own ethnic community ...

And from what I understand she's had flak that goes some way beyond annoying.

I wonder if Asian students don't sometimes feel like that in NZ. By that I mean that we just want their money (or their parents money) and don't care much about their welfare.

That's exactly the feeling I got from the experience. I think a lot of kiwis (or aucklanders…

Most of…

But actually there's not much I can do about it here either, other than not be a racist, something I heartily recommend. But so often inverse racism means people don't believe you.

The only Asian student I've…

Those stories you have heard are from a sample of thousands of people and you are comparing it to your own singular experience. Statistically your experience is irrelevent.

Plus there is the whole other factor in harrassment as to what the harrassee is expected to do. For instance judging…

walking around like I had a big neon dollar sign attached to my head

I wonder if Asian students don't sometimes feel like that in NZ. By that I mean that we just want their money (or their parents money) and don't care much about their welfare. OTOH what this survey…

I'd tend to pass off the hard sell tactics as good business management rather than racism

I'd pass it off as good business management AND racism. Rather like not paying any attention to the Maori guy who comes into a shop other than to make sure he doesn't nick anything.…

I'm not saying any of that was good or that it makes it OK to do it here. But I am saying that here is not the only place it happens, and asians are not the only people it happens to.

I concur. I got the same treatment in the…

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/413726/1266399

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/488124/1287649

Or have breasts.

Fuckwit-Am... sorry, Irish-Americans

@ rogerd,
a retraction please.

That may be so but I can assert that in both those cities, I've never once had a complete stranger come up to me and assault me or abuse me for being a foreigner.

In Bangkok a few years back I was in a marketplace, and an old lady looked…

Alot of talk has rested on labels, Banana, Potato etc.
What about an imigrants English name?
Names of convience for this monocultured country to deal with.
My mums family used Sweeny as a trading name during WWI for the local dairy farm. The other was too German – ahem Polish…

The concept of West isn't complicated – it's confused.

No its not, West is just a stand-in for another word that starts with W.

How can any NZer, reliant on the export of…

All of Asia is either North or North West of us – making us at least South if not South East of them.

'West" just shows…

Although 'more Chinese than thou' types can be annoying (I'm probably one of them at times) as can 'more Indian than thou' types, are they the primary source of racism experienced by those groups in the West?

No that'd be us white folks. Cause everybody is racist* and there are…

Keith's been in there posting – care to summarise, dude?

but i can't think of a descriptor for them that captures that place in between two cultures where children of migrants end up.

you know, i really don't think there is one? which is strange considering that it is so common to so many societies world-wide.

maybe all those 2Gen…

Which often involves rediscovering one's original culture too.

Indeed, although that can sometimes go nasty, as well as nicely. Consider Fuckwit-Am... sorry, Irish-Americans and their often so-simplified-it's-bullshit view of Ireland and their largesse directed at the IRA, or the penomenon (discussed on PA recently) of second and third generation militant…

Although 'more Chinese than thou' types can be annoying (I'm probably one of them at times) as can 'more Indian than thou' types, are they the primary source of racism experienced by those groups in the West?

primary? i don't know. but just as difficult to cope with. because you…

Russell's point is useful.... that over time, the second generation of immigrants merges, and creates something new with the host culture.

Which often involves rediscovering one's original culture too.

At last year's Banana conference, there were personal stories aired about growing up here that I think people found very moving.…

absolutely Russell. I suffered from culture shock something terrible when I first got there. I was completely surprised by how "other" it was.

Which of course eventually becomes a desire to bang your head against the wall when some FOBs turn up and complain about the weather and that the…

Ouch! Kymlicka to you too, sunshine!!

Because over time, the 'host' community itself changes. And indeed, there are some trivial ways in which host communties…

I'm sure plenty of Samoan and Tongans who came here in the 60s for jobs might well have preferred to stay in the Islands and away from New Zealand's comparative lack of respect for their traditions, but they didn't feel they had much choice.

And for a long time, there…

they didn't feel they had much choice.

yeah, i think host communities cop a lot of criticism unnecessarily.

even if a group was forced to emigrate to new zealand (somali refugees for example), it's a big ask for the host community to do more than willingly accept them, and willingly…

if someone wanted their cultural heritage to remain entirely intact intergenerationally, wouldn't it be easier in their country of origin?

Maybe, but plenty of people are, or feel compelled, to move for (e.g.) economic/career/home-turned-into-a-disaster-zone type reasons. I'm sure plenty of Samoan and Tongans who came here in the 60s for…

Your public eagerly awaits your return to blogging.

When you do got somewhere where you're the other, it's inevitable that ideas about identity are going to be cast in sharper focus.

Well I got to be the "white other" in Japan and I…

if someone wanted their cultural heritage to remain entirely intact intergenerationally, wouldn't it be easier in their country of origin?

(Although I did have a taxi driver who seemed extremely aware of being…

but i hate how some indians will treat us as inferior because we choose not to follow their cultural norms.

Because, after all, the norms of a culture should be followed uncritically. You should treat Dalits like shit and your wive should immolate herself if you die before her[1], and…

although Liu Shueng says it was a label that 'other people' called us, it was only a label that *other Chinese people* called us. So that's not really 'other people' is it?

Not if you consider yourself to be Chinese. But if you are actually a Banana, then they are…

Okay, back to the subject then will you! To me, the fundamental strategic error of the attempt to reclaim 'banana' is that: although Liu Shueng says it was a label that 'other people' called…

Classy address!! All those lakefront cafes and the like.

I hope you get up into the mountains and see some of the Swiss (and French) countryside.

green-irish

my favoured state of intoxication.

I think I just used to refer to myself as white – british whenever the form asked the question

How about green-irish, use of colour to indicate religious heritage

"Black" or "Yellow" would undoubtedly not be permitted as a description of nationality or race on any legal form-filling, so why is "White" (whether Other or not) considered acceptable?

My own race, incidentally, is Pinkish-Cream although none of my family speak Pinkish.

Bagpipes originated in Central Asia.…

I think I just used to refer to myself as white – british whenever the form asked…

Mind you, I like bagpipes.

I think there is an academic case to be made for the superiority of the Scots. But only over their cousins south of the Tweed and it has nothing to do with skin colour or race.

Calvanism has its place.

Mind you, I…

Y Tother

lol

white other

Fantastic! Sounds like a title of some sort. Or code name. Brown Owl meet White Other.

Cheers

Y Tother.

as now I call myself "White Other".

I like that, it would have been quite an apt label for me in Japan.

Identity is self-defined; but language doesn't exist in a vacuum.

another way to put that is; i choose my own identity, but my identity is worthless unless it has a group to support it.

so, che can claim to be whatever identity he wants. but, that claim is false unless…

To me, 'Banana' is still pejorative

Since it's two main references are to skin color it's not surprising people feel that way. It's not like there's only one yellow culture, or one white culture. And it's not like the color/ethnicity defines the culture anyway. Bagpipes set my teeth on edge.

To me, 'Banana' is still pejorative, because I actually have more mainlanders in my social network than a lot of…

When I was at primary school 'Arab' was an abstract concept involving deserts & camels. 'Jew' was a derogatory term for someone who kept wanting a bit of your lunch. 'Chinese' was very exotic, and referred to sweet & sour wontons and chop suey.

Got me thinking about Ruth Park's autobiography of…

Re SkyKiwi – Well, find me a large forums community with heaps of teenagers or twenty somethings that doesn't sometimes get filled with vaguely (and sometimes…

I'd also note that "Chinese" as we use it in New Zealand is an umbrella term, referring to one or more of nationality, culture, language and ethnicity

Which has changed and is changing with more exposure to Chinese and Asian people and culture.

As far as my mother-in law is…

Pretty normal really. Kind of sad too – it's…

They have kiwi accents, they are free to practice their parent's cultural practices if they want and they don't get labelled.

By either side...

Don't think that's racism though – just petty nastiness most people grow out of, or at least learn to hide under the polite hypocrisy that makes life tolerable.

Work on that sentence a little and it has the germ of brilliance.

I would never use the term coconut. It always seemed slightly worse that FOB on the scale of insults.

Yeah, FOB can be used affectionately. I'll never forget that when I went to a rapping competition in South Auckland in 1989 to scout talent for a dance party I was…

My cousins seem to take the "I can use this word cause I am an islander" approach but from my high school experiences I would never use the term coconut. It always seemed slightly worse that FOB on the scale of insults.

No, I'm pretty sure [coconut's] just a pejorative for islanders in general.

like stephen says, use that label at your peril.

Their parents might, sure, but do their kids?

Yes, because kids are nasty little pack animals who will jump on anything 'funny" (like speaking heavily-accented English or a foreign language with their peers, or a weird name – especially one you can make a grubby pun of) to establish a…

Actually you didn't call someone a coconut full-stop if you wanted to keep all your teeth.

In your urban dictionary link, meaning 2 is the New Zealand usage, all the others are clearly non-New Zealand, with their references to groups that are not salient minorities in NZ (like Mexicans and Filipinos).

Or maybe it's a contested term:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=coconut

With the Skykiwi stuff (is the word "Sky" significant to Chinese?)…

the term is traditionally "coconuts"

No, I'm pretty sure that's just a pejorative for islanders in general.

It's a shame that this "with us or against us" attitude is alienating Chinese international students from the local Chinese, though to be fair, the prejudice goes the other way, too.

And as I understand it, the term is traditionally "coconuts",…

What do you call kids born in NZ to white south african parents? Dutch parents? etc...

These kids also slip between two cultures but generally don't labelled.

Their parents might, sure, but do their kids?

In my day they were called Mallowpuffs.

White on the outside, but partly brown on the inside.

Try-hards.

(I mean that with aroha, of course).

what is the equivalent term for Maori / Pacific Islanders who have undergone the same cultural shift?...

I've heard the term "Bounty Bar" used.

What do you call people like myself? White on the outside, but partly brown on the inside. Please, try not to prefix your answer with the word "Rotten..."

Ummm ... one of Dick Hubbard's YCRs?

Yoghurt-Coated Raisin, that is ...

Potato? ("brown on the outside, white on the inside")

What do you call people like myself? White on the outside, but partly…