Actually not funny. At all.

And I'm now closing this thread before it degenerates further.

[for purposes of clarity, the crack was a reference to speaking to "the Wellington branch of Mossad" in a reply to Stephen. Hardly the worst thing you've ever read,…

Take your pusillanimous piece and stick it up your arse.

There, I fixed it for you.
As for haters, have you looked in the mirror lately.
Calm down, if you go looking for hate you will find it.

it seemed remarkable- that a smallish paper in NZ was reporting this in June 2001.

Oh. My. God.

FAIRFAX.

That explains everything.

What's frequently overlooked is that of the 19 confirmed hijackers, 15 of them were Saudis, 1 Egyptian,…

And please, try not to be so defensive. It doesn't become you. Peace.

I will never, ever be restrained in criticising people who spread this toxic shit. There can be no…

[for purposes of clarity, the crack was a reference to speaking to "the Wellington branch of Mossad" in a reply to Stephen. Hardly the worst thing you've ever read, but in the circumstances, unfunny and unhelpful. – RB]

You have well and truly earned…

Que? No. Of course not.

Sorry, I misread 'capacity to oppose' as inferring they shouldn't have opposed it. When in fact you meant they didn't, but should have. Or something. I'm confusing.

[for purposes of clarity, the crack was a reference to speaking to "the Wellington branch of Mossad" in a reply to Stephen. Hardly the worst thing you've ever read, but in the circumstances, unfunny and unhelpful. – RB]

I just struggle to think of sides,

There…

"Whether or not Israeli spies had detailed foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks, the Israeli authorities knew enough to warn the U.S. government in the summer of 2001 that an attack was on the horizon."

Seriously. The US government knew that an attack on US soil using aeroplanes was imminent. The…

You support them?

Que? No. Of course not.

and their capacity to oppose war or measures like the Patriot Act.

You support them? When necessary and justifiable maybe, but I struggle to see how Iraq or Afghanistan are either of these things, perhaps with the benefit of hindsight. The cynicism around 9/11 stems partly from the fact it…

On both sides? Which sides would those be?

Pendant. All sides? Who came out of this clean? According to the review of Farmer's book, and most other reports, not many, if any.

Here is some of that virtually none for any other explanation,
What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks? and this The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11
Now show me yours.

http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html

"Whether or not Israeli spies had detailed foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks, the Israeli authorities knew enough to warn the U.S. government in the summer of 2001 that an attack was on the horizon."

Right, so is it a…

They, whoever they were, were bad. Bad shit continues to happen, in spite of, or because of (e.g. Guantanamo) the lies and BS that was/is propagated on both sides before, during, and after 9/11.

On both sides? Which sides would those be?

Here is some of that virtually none for any other explanation,

Well, at least you've stopped being disingenous about what you believe. I wonder why you didn't answer Stephen's perfectly straightforward question earlier.

The proof for the Al Qaeda connection to 9/11 is not in any one place, but you…

It was a group of conspirators operating mostly out of Saudi Arabia, and they certainly weren't poor either. There is multiple and convergent evidence of their involvement, virtually none for any other explanation,

Here is some of that virtually none for any other explanation,
[[http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/israeli_spies_911.html | What Did Israel Know…

It is a story of official fecklessness and lies before, during and after the attacks. And it doesn't need exotic conspiracies;…

Well, when I got close enough to meet a few of them, back in 1972, they were fine, if a little wild and very few of them carried guns.

The Soviets invaded in 1979, and stayed until 1989.

A decade of brutal occupation and the funnelling of thousands of modern…

I am neither Jewish nor an anti-semite, I am also not a Zionist, a "Truther", a bigot or a troll. I just have doubts about the truth of the explanations, all of them.

So why did you choose to link to that one in particular? Honest question.

That they both turned into sworn enemies is neither surprising nor proof of shadowy dealings: it's simply how the cold war worked, and the public in the US has always accepted that.

Perhas the 9/11 Truth movement is a pathological reaction to that cynical acquiescence.

In my opinion, the public…

I feel trolled, and I don't like it.

I know how you feel but how often do I have to say...

Like I've said before, I find both sides of this to be various shades of bullshite. There will always be agendas, either before or after such a horrendous act,…

If they weren't clever enough to orchestrate it (Iraq I mean) then they were at least too stupid to prevent it.

Of course they orchestrated it. This has never really been in question. And yes, of course Bin Laden was an agent of the US. So was Saddam. That they…

Needless to say, I…

"revelations". This puzzles me.

Possibly not the best choice of words, would you accept "bit of news" or "bit of gossip" instead?.

I do deliberately conflate the Israeli plot angle with "the Jews did it," because I genuinely believe it is an antisemitic explanation. It depends on belief in scheming Jew…

Gio. My point was the abuse of the word "Truth" from both sides is, at least, disingenuous, the truth is just not known.

Yet for you the content of that link on the Ron Paul site qualifies as "revelations". This puzzles me.

I've just this minute come across this letter…

If you don't, what was the point you were making by providing that link? I really don't understand what you are getting at. What is the nature of the discomfort are you…

Btw, Steve, Truther is the name the Truthers give themselves, not a slur.

Anybody know what the schedule is for the bill?

1.00 am, Monday 21st December, Muttering behind bike sheds behind Beehive, passing of wads of used twenties in brown paper envelopes.
1.15 am Sneak into Debating Chamber, pass bill under extreme urgency.
1.20 am. Borrow Bollards Ute and drive to Auckland…

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Legislation/Bills/Default.htm?search=42432935

Scare Key and his backers with the prospect of years in the opposition wilderness should this bill be passed in it's current form.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10616286

A few stonings would be good for laffs, even.

Yet PAS bloggers try & convince themselves that there views represent majority widespread public opinion. They don't! Anyone who doesn't agree with PAS status quo on any of the above is ridiculed & condemned with sarcasm.Widespread public opinion is condemned here. PAS doesn't care as its anti democratic.

Is it me or…

the sad irony of a country largely made up of Christians

I think Juan Cole is rather good on all this:

So Switzerland, after centuries of striving for civilization and enlightenment, has just about reached the same level of tolerance as that exhibited by a small Gulf Wahhabi country, the…

If they're not being used for broadcast purposes then i think RB is right about the posters being outlandish , depicting the minarets as missiles .

Even if they were, the sad irony of a country largely made up of Christians (who ring bells on Sunday morning, and other times)…

If they're not being used for broadcast purposes then i think RB is right about the posters being outlandish , depicting the minarets as missiles .

Um, would it be within the realms of possibility that's it's "outlandish" to dog-whsitle that over a billion human beings are terrorists? 82% of…

If they're not being used for broadcast purposes then i think RB is right about the posters being outlandish , depicting the minarets as missiles .

I look forward to your return.

Can I underline that. I've always gravitated to Joe and Ian's posts in a thread, reading them ahead of much of the page, if only for the smile the phraseology inevitably brings.

Nobody on this forum has an incisive turn of phrase that matches…

@Joe: all the best to you and Ian too. FWIW, I've felt the tone has been a bit scratchy round here the last couple of…

Have to give credit for a sense of humour though.

Oh wow, agreed. For some reason I didn't spot that as Andrew's contribution – thought it was a smart little dig by someone else...

Personally i was hoping for a few plumbers or electricians to sign up.

Heh

For the meantime, all the best to all of you.

This sounds rather too much like a 'signing off' comment to me – say it ain't so, or at very least not permanently. I enjoy your comments along with those of Gio and Ian and... well, because there are too…

Oh, don't be ridicolous, Joe would never say something that causes offence.
(Kindly navigate to the top of the next page for his response.)
I did say I would drop it, didn't I? Nice to see I get called out anyway.

Good morning Giovanni. That's right, it's the previous time…

hey are used for heralding Muslims to prayer , 5 times a day,via an amplified sound system, i might add , very loudly .

No, no they aren't. The four currently existing minarets in Switzerland are not used to call anyone for prayer. They're just towers, kind of like steeples…

disagree R.B, with your stance on Minarets. Are you saying you'd tolerate having one in your neighborhood? They are used for heralding Muslims to prayer , 5 times a day,via an amplified sound system, i might add , very loudly .

I know what they are. And I don't think…

I hope we didn't loose Joe Wylie. He's been a good buddy on this forum.

He certainly has.

In the continuing pearls-of-wisdom-from-the-gaffer series, it's fine to take a break from PAS because you feel offended by an exchange of views, because you're saying things you might regret, or because you're…

Thats far to harsh, a holiday in Fiji would be shocking enough for the little petals.

I beg to differ. Nothing's ever too harsh for hardline demagogues.

All the apartments in Sydney have bars on there windows, for Christ's sake.

But, it's the kinda place to love if you are fresh outta yoof. Never felt more safe than wandering the streets of Sydney at 3am. Some times, not so lucky, but most of the time yada yada.…

From Brian Easton in the Listener, August 15, 2009:

Now National and Act have agreed to set a “concrete goal of closing the income gap with Australia by 2025”, 16 years away. The historical record shows the divergence from Australia began in 1966,…

Canty, Otago, Southland & Firodland are here in the Pacific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Plates_tect2_en.svg

Sorry, nothing to do with PAS, it happened to me after my post. Although the few Gage supporters in the blog comments kept it quite civil, to their credit.

Ah, right. The emails Kim Hill read out on Saturday were fairly off-the-hook.

I don't want to run a site that generates hate mail. I would like anyone who has sent anything of the kind to apologise and not do it again.

Sorry, nothing to do with PAS, it happened to me after my post. Although the few Gage supporters in the blog…

They will also almost always switch to victim mode when that happens and act like their human rights are being flouted because someone disagrees with them or makes fun of them. There's little to be done about this.

With the possible exception of marooning them in Belarus or Myanmar for…

I don't want to run a site that generates hate mail. I would like anyone who has sent anything of the kind to apologise and not do it again.

Ian's a dear old friend and I'm sad that he was offended. He was dealt with brusquely, but…

7. It's just an internet discussion thread. There'll be another one tomorrow.

You obviously haven't seen the blueprints for my Doomsday Device.

Ops, I said too much.

1. It's just an internet discussion thread. There'll be another one tomorrow. I have perfectly civil real-life relations with people I might have…

Nice people have received hate mail

That they have!

Is it really worth it?

I'm on record claiming it's a serious issue, and should be treated as such. And it may be something that happened away from New Zealand several years ago, but so are many other atrocities.

You'll forgive me, Danielle, if I choose not to take your little homilies to heart. Like Giovanni, you probably have little idea of just how condescending your tone can be.

Dude, I know *exactly* how condescending my tone can be. I calibrate all my PAS posts extra specially using my…

Oh for fuck's sake, Joe. You can sound the same, sometimes.

Oh, don't be ridicolous, Joe would never say something that causes offence.

(Kindly navigate to the top of the next page for his response.)

I did say I would drop it, didn't I? Nice to see I get called…

@Steve P
How is posting a Duran Duran video expected to ease the tension in the air?

Your mistake is in assuming I want to ease the tension.

their reflexes

Oh, you’re just asking for it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVeR__R5jBM&feature=fvst

Was that mild little contretemps really worth holding a week-long thread-crossing grudge…

Was that mild little contretemps really worth holding a week-long thread-crossing grudge that comes screaming out of the wild blue yonder?

It was enough to drive one of the best contributors this forum's had out of here for good, something I've only recently become aware of. You'll forgive me, Danielle,…

Insync, is an incredibly difficult word to spell.

That is because it is not a word. "In synch" is what you were after (though it looks like "in sync" is now being used as well).

HTH.

Actually very frightening in hindsight.

Even more frightening when the bastards didn't have their reflexes and depth perception dulled by alcohol poisoning, I submit. Much easier to deal with scary rough trade when they're doing the locomotion like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydocoaWpc2Y&feature=related

Added bonus: Too hung over to remember why they wanted…

I had been battling with the Equinox Winds and the full moon, and was almost coping. Now I’m doing that battle with Duran Duran running around my head.

How is posting a Duran Duran video expected to ease the tension in the air?

Because laughing at Simon Le Bon is hugely relaxing!

It was the tone.

Maybe I'm just a hard-faced old meanypants with a crappy douchebaggery-dar, but I re-read that thread this morning and was completely nonplussed. Was that mild little contretemps really worth holding a week-long thread-crossing grudge that comes screaming out of the wild blue yonder? Seriously, that way…

Insync, is an incredibly difficult word to spell.

I think you'll find it's spelled N'SYNC.

Engineers and Architects might be only that, but I'd like both to have opinions on buildings seeing as a building is pretty much fucked without them

Um, OK... so people claiming professional expertise should, to take one relatively trivial example cited up thread, know what a pyroclastic flow is --…

Funny, I keep hearing people talk about the New Moon. And then squealing and sighing. Maybe they're confused?

Haha!

Anyway, the new moon is on Monday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kovtKfMM4g

It was the tone. Absolutely pointless if you had a differing opinion to others here, on the right for this man Gage to express his views. Attacking persons don't seem to solve much.

Has anyone seriously questioned the right of Gage and co to express their opinion? You're unlikely to…

A tad over the top, my friend.

It was the tone. Absolutely pointless if you had a differing opinion to others here, on the right for this man Gage to express his views. Attacking persons don't seem to solve much. And yes, Gio and Craig kinda clinched it, (imo) although…

A tad over the top, my friend.

Perhaps, but I don't recall torching any garden tools and marching on anyone's castle either. And there, since Russell asked very nicely, I'd like to leave it.

Craig, i suspect this is the offending piece from p. 9:

wow...…

Sacha i have put forward a reasonable assertion that PAS bloggers are all pro anti smacking law, ... There are no variants here at PAS in regard to any of those subjects above.

Your assertion isn't reasonable. Graeme Edgeler is a blogger here, and he couldn’t really be described as…

Yeah, Russell should ban that rich guy. He's a cock.

But he ain't some rich prick!

Did the Troll build the bridge? He has shown he is not greedy as he allows two to pass for the price of one.

The Troll is just trying to make a living, but the very existance of the troll is an affront to the Goats and is dispensed with…

take that rich guy ? he spent a bit of time dissing that andrew fella by making some inane post in the hope of getting a few laughs. how lame is that cos it's not even funny

Yeah, Russell should ban that rich guy. He's a cock.

I blame it on the Equinox winds.

Ah, die Föhnkrankheit

Those hot dry winds that come down through the mountain passes and curl your hair and make your nerves jump and your skin itch. On nights like that every booze party ends in a fight. Meek little wives feel the…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3109957/Meeting-with-attacker-delivers-justice/

Did the Troll build the bridge? He has shown he is not greedy as he allows two to pass for the price of…

But we knew that. Anti-PC is all about how everyone else gets to be a victim, except put-upon, white male me. What about meeeee?

Speaking of anti-PC, here's a surprising daisy-cutter from a libertarian viewpoint...

Jim Peron: The New anti-PC Problem

So due to Political Correctness, Mr. Clive is the victim.

But we knew that. Anti-PC is all about how everyone else gets to be a victim, except put-upon, white male me. What about meeeee?

Looks like you're all drinking from the same poisoned trough
Says a voice from the culvert.
'Tis the man with two first names,

In 2008, the BBC created a modern adaptation for its Fairy Tales season. In this, the story was given a PC twist in that the troll was…

I am but a DumBugger

rofflenui

Being able to buy kitchen appliances and keyrings with my name pre-printed on them

Very cool.

With a name like Alessi (of which one of my tea pots is) I am not surprised :)

My last name is handy for exactly two things:

1) Impressing people when I pitch for web design jobs;*

and

2) Being able to buy kitchen appliances and keyrings with my name…

high levels of Holy WTF

Besides all the reasonable influences mentioned for our fraying, I note that it can be unsettling for any group of people to engage others with unclear, disingenuous or hostile intent. Focusing on the content and disagreeing in good faith is one thing but tolerating trolls…

If you can't call bullshit in the strongest possible terms on 9/11 "Truthers" whose attitude towards basic physical reality is ninja-level "truthiness", then you might as well not bother calling out any form of dishonest argument.

Gio's right: Anyone who cares can review the record and come to their…

I'd ask you all to contemplate the difference between attacking people's arguments and attacking the people who make them.

Great, you got it. Now you could have pointed out why you thought Ian was naive. Instead you chose to be "aghast", as if no explanation were needed, and your presumed status here gave you the right to be so. Very fucking condescending.

I'm just going to leave it there,…

The winds, and the fact that there’s a certain costly “celebration” coming up.

I believe what I expressed was great surprise that somebody – and it happened to be Ian – thought that Richard Gage was in the business of asking honest questions.

Great, you got it. Now you could have pointed out why you thought Ian was naive. Instead you chose to…

While it's just more of the sort of ego-driven bullying that Craig Ranapia is given a permanent free pass for, once I'd have expected more of Mr. Tiso. Now I know better.

EDIT: Lengthy response deleted because it's just not worth it. I'll just say I don't find any "honest…

Huh. I was not aware that 'smörgåsbord' has an umlaut. (Or, indeed, one of those circle-thingies.)

I'm hoping it won't turn out to be one of those occasions where you live to regret cutting and pasting from Wikipaedia. My spelling sucks, blows and pees on the carpet — what can…

Someone once wrote that the greatest advantage of being part of a majority group is the invisibility that comes with being considered "normal". You are, whatever your faults, the way the world is supposed to be. No one…

Oh, I remember now. But isn't Ian one of Giovanni's creations,

I think that he may have been an original,the throw away the mould type, not to be repeated.
I liked my daily pun puzzles. beat the crossword that's for sure.

One of those times

Oh, I remember now. But isn't Ian one of Giovanni's creations, as are we all? Surely the great one can will him back, or at least entice him with real pizza.

the correct term for a bunch of dictators is an Oligarchy.

And if there's a bunch of them together, it's referred to as a murder of oligarchs.

As Ian Dalziel is no longer posting here, is that what passes for cutting-edge wit at PAS now?

Pretty much. Sad, innit?

Huh. I was not aware that 'smörgåsbord' has an umlaut. (Or, indeed, one of those circle-thingies.)

I'm hoping it won't turn out to be one of those occasions where you live to regret cutting and pasting from Wikipaedia. My spelling sucks, blows and pees on the carpet — what can…

minaret-coddling agenda

We've stumped Google phrase search again!

As Ian Dalziel is no longer posting here, is that what passes for cutting-edge wit at PAS now?

And dubmugga, I really can't spare the time I'm having to spend on you lately. You don't seem to be able to self-manage and you don't seem to respect the place. I'm not really sure why you're here.

dont spare your time if you got better things to do, spend…

We've stumped Google phrase search again!

Give it time to work though (half an hour?) and it's another googlewhack. I believe real kiwis are allowed to make those.

minaret-coddling agenda

We've stumped Google phrase search again!

"If I ruled the world, certain people better buck up their ideas, ...

If I ruled the world, you kids would stay the hell off my lawn or else. Otherwise, I couldn't give a damn what you God-damn dirty stinking apes get up to — just do it quietly.

Aw, come on DeepRed... We all know that the media is part of the "liberal elite", despite having its corporate tongue permanently tonguing John Key's cock, balls and arsehole.

Ok after pushing breakfast aside( thank you Craig for that wonderful image):)

__BUT CAN THEY WIRE A LEAKY TAP WITHOUT A…

have better things to do

Than to march for democracy or tapdance for literacy.

Please use that in future :p

"If I ruled the world, certain people better buck up their ideas, ...

The Swiss people have now just voted to ban the construction of new minarets, backing a proposition sold with posters depicting minarets as missiles.

There is no room for you or your minaret-coddling agenda here, Brown.

(Seriously, though, I woke up to that piece of news on the radio this…

a working knowledge of Dewey

See, that's the problem with this place. Bloody elitist librarians. :)

*real* NZers either have better things to do, like manual labour jobs that limit their ability to engage on line discussions, dont have internet or cant be arsed playing mindfuck with the blognoscenti that frequent PAS.

we are hyperreal NZers :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreality

And if it hasn't been mentioned already, one of the more risible examples of the referendum system was the fact that it blocked women from full voting rights in Switzerland until 1971.

The Swiss people have now just voted to ban the construction of new minarets, backing a proposition sold…

Oh god.

Don't you think S/HE gets unfairly blamed for quite enough human foolishness without piling on more? :)

For a second opinion...

Aw, come on DeepRed... We all know that the media is part of the "liberal elite", despite having its corporate tongue permanently tonguing John Key's cock, balls…

ODT: Fine line between mob rule and 'democracy'

And if it hasn't been mentioned already, one of the more risible examples of the referendum system was the fact that it blocked women from full voting rights in Switzerland until 1971.

And would homosexual law reform have…

the PAS elite

Oh FFS. 'Rules' for contributing usefully to PAS (and life) in a nutshell: a) don't be disingenuous; and b) don't be a douchebag. It's not that hard. (ETA: obviously, feel free to be a disingenuous douchebag if you like – far be it from me to dictate…

Indeed. And if the forelock-tugging pleb scum fail to show a sufficiently servile attitude while expressing grovelling gratitude, I generally have my coachman see them off the property by whipping them the length of the drive.

Rich, you're stealing bread out of the ball-gagged mouths of real working Kiwi dominatrices…

I don't change anyone's mind very often, or vice versa, but a good lung-busting argument quite often clarifies my thinking (and brings some useful contrary points of view into focus) and I hope the feeling is mutual.

It is.

Can anyone here wire up a 3 pin plug ? Fix a leaking tap?

Yes, but why would we want to do that, when we can get some dipstick like yourself, to do it for us, for peanuts?

Indeed. And if the forelock-tugging pleb scum fail to show a sufficiently…

You can't get more Real New Zealander than that, surely?

Not without a working knowledge of Dewey, no.

heres a better idea if you're thinking of calling troll. Just shut the fuck up and walk away from the puter for a while cos you just lost your cool and the plot

Here's another idea: A good practical definition of insanity is doing the same old shit and expecting…

you cant tell the difference between a troll and a troll baiter

You can here, because one guy is ranting on about what a bunch of arsewipes we all are, and everyone else is reacting with bemusement, laughter or irritation. It's fairly clear.

No, sorry, it doesn't qualify you as…

if they do reply in kind with an equivalent insult, the…

Can I beat anyone in the real-New-Zealander-off with that sort of limited skillset?

No, sorry, it doesn't qualify you as a real New Zealander. And I should know.

As an online discussion grows longer and the more someone puts forward an opinion that disagrees with the majority, the probability of being called a troll approaches 1

Bollocks. There are plenty of people who regularly post here and hold minority views on a number of things. They don't get…

smörgåsbord

Huh. I was not aware that 'smörgåsbord' has an umlaut. (Or, indeed, one of those circle-thingies.)

Andrew is of the 'cute but boring and repetitive' school of Angry Flailing, isn't he? Dude, you're going to have to start saying something different at some point, surely?

(And just because we…

Anyone who doesn't agree with PAS status quo on any of the above is ridiculed & condemned with sarcasm.

possibly the rule of hard news ?

** As an online discussion grows longer and the more someone puts forward an opinion that disagrees with the majority, the probability of being called…

Anyone who doesn't agree with PAS status quo on any of the above is ridiculed & condemned with sarcasm.

Or put another way, when you're brining nothing but pissy attitude to the table you shouldn't really be surprised when you get return fire. Put up something approximately in the vicinity of…

That is different to our Representative Electoral system.

You misunderstand..it ain't democratic if Andrew doesn't agree with it, and it most certainly ain't acceptable to debate anything or advance an alternative view unless it's sanctioned by Andrew (or you are able to conclusively prove that you've wired a plug or…

That is different to our Representative Electoral system.

There were numerous other public polls conducted prior to the anti smacking referendum poll that showed consistently 80% of New Zealanders didn't want Bradford's anti smacking legislation.

Sure, whatever. And that position happens to be in the minority on this forum. So your point is...?

There were numerous other public polls conducted prior to the anti smacking referendum poll that showed consistently 80% of New Zealanders didn't want Bradford's anti smacking legislation.

Go back…

Giovanni (book& cheese in the mail apopo) is really nice: I just find…

PAS doesn't care as its anti democratic.

So, in order to be democratic you *must* have the same opinion as the majority. And

What a bunch of dictators.

You're simply adorable!

examples:

Anti smacking lobby [alive & well here]
Maori Party ETS removal [support alive & well here]
Anti Sensible Sentencing Trust [alive & well here]
Anti March for Democracy [alive & well…

trying to convince each other that you represent mainstream public opinion

Haven't seen anyone around here claim that except you, old man.

Surely Tony's opinion is just as valid as yours Craig?

Sure, and on reflection I'm not entirely fair to Tony personally — but I've heard too many folks over the last couple of days who really don't have a problem with race-bating when they don't like the targets. Well, they're…

I think they’re testing the water; I wouldn’t be too surprised to see a coded attack on feminism: a speech to (say) a church group or sports club on how New Zealand boys are ‘being left behind’ would do nicely.

what I thought he was trying to do was call bullshit on some of what the Maori Party are doing.

Then why not just do that? – more than enough ammo.

And it should be able to be done without the race card being played.

Agreed. Goff's message would have…