If people want to free associate/speculate/extrapolate/make sh*t up about other dimensions and multiple universes they are free to do so, but I fail to see how such imaginary worlds are any better than Collins' imaginary friend

These theories are not created for the benefit of theists, they're conjectures by physicists…

If people want to free associate/speculate/extrapolate/make sh*t up about other dimensions and multiple universes they are free to do so, but I fail to see how such imaginary worlds are any better than Collins' imaginary friend.

The difference is that their implications are, at least conceivably, testable. Also, those investigating…

All he simply wants is for someone who believes to provide to him a repeatible, verifiable test that beyond a reasonable doubt proves a god or gods exist. No such test exists, therefore Dawkins cannot be convinced.

If such an experiment could be devised we wouldn't be arguing about this.…

I haven't read it all yet but carbon chemistry (necesssary for life of course) playing a significant role in black hole formation is pretty good evidence.

Evolution I think is being used here as a metaphor, but maybe there's more to the…

"Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds,"

Well Terry, we don't have to "imagine". The God squad do it all the time. Annoying, isn't it.

As I said, that's just a knee-jerk reaction to the statement. But don't…

One would have to change all the constants in-order to get a life generating universe – but that is the puzzle. Out of all the possible combinations of values for the fundamental constants only…

Why should someone who has spent his life using a methadology of repeatible, verifiable research ever want or need to delve deeply into the depths of theological discussion. All he simply wants is for someone who believes to provide to him a repeatible, verifiable test that beyond a…

The comment about the Pastafraians was separate to the one about Paul Davies. My bad for not putting in a bigger space

Hayden, you might like to check out Paul Davies' background before dismissing him as a "Pastafarian".

I'm not dissing no one, aren't the followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster called Pastafarians? Did I put in the wrong link?

That the universe happens to be just…

Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the…

… ]]> Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:44:10 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-the-god-thing/?p=1750#post1750 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-the-god-thing/?p=1750#post1750 Hamish,

As you can tell by the fact I'm referring you to a wiki, I'm no expert, but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution#Evolutionary_biologists_who_were_also_theists

]]> Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:29:25 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-the-god-thing/?p=1748#post1748 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-the-god-thing/?p=1748#post1748 Wed, 15 Nov 2006 22:23:24 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-the-god-thing/?p=1707#post1707 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-the-god-thing/?p=1707#post1707 Wed, 15 Nov 2006 14:42:12 +1300 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-the-god-thing/?p=1703#post1703 https://publicaddress.net/system/cafe/hard-news-the-god-thing/?p=1703#post1703

The invocation of bronze age theology, the death of Galileo, or teapots in orbit does not advance this debate.

. . . but it does. Any debate on atheism vs. agnosticism vs. faith will always come down to the burden of proof; as each side demands that the other provide…

Could it not equally be a property of our number systems? That is, we just happen to measure things in a way that make them seem spookily just right.

Not quite – if the gravitational constant (for example) was out by an extremely small amount (I forget how much, but…

(the numbers represent things like the relative strenghts of the fundamental forces so it's not a querk of any…

In my view both the theist and the atheist are making claims they need to prove, rather than simply assert. Both views have implications for the real world.

As Dawkins points out, he's not saying that god doesn't exist ... he's just saying that __based on the evidence we see…

The invocation of bronze age theology, the death of Galileo, or teapots in orbit does not advance this debate.

Actually, it does. Bronze age theism was equally 'valid' a world-view for what was known by people at the time. The arguements for Religion have changed to accomodate scientific discoveries down…

First, is God amenable to proof or disproof? If you want to regard mysteries in physics as proof, then you need to accept the possibilities of disproofs as well, or your position become incoherent and self-serving.

Second, why…

You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” – then I can’t even be bothered to argue

The question of whether the universe has a cause is not like the question of whether the moon is made of…

That the universe happens to be just right for life and that even an extremely small variation in the fundamental constants would mean no life what so ever – not different life – is…

Colour me bemused.

The idea of a direct ferry from Devonport appeals as well.

I love the discussions about the universe being perfectly suited for us and why that is so. I come from a mathematics background and so we often look at pi to answer this.

Hell yeah . . . it's for this reason alone that I can't fathom why some people…

The term "agnostic" has developed a few meanings over time. When it was first coined by…

I'm not sure that the absence of something needs to be proved. Surely the responsibility is on the person asserting the presence of soemthing which there is no measure for?

From memory, this is one of Dawkin's points. By saying there is a god, believers are positing a hypothesis which…

Something that is 'unprovable' is not false – there is very little that is 'provable'.

Hear hear . . .

. . . from the afore-referenced Douglas Adams interview, when asked about 'proof' with respect to his atheism:

I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically…

In a recent New Scientist podcast (I don't know how to link to it) physicist Paul Davies discusses the problem of how the universe appears to be just right for life. If any of…

Unfortunately, many athiests prefer not to accept that their own religious belief (the unprovable assertion that there is no god) is open to serious critique.

That is EXACTLY the kind of poor logic that riles Atheists. Something that is 'unprovable' is not false – there is very little that is…

I'm not sure that the absence of something needs to be proved.

It it can't be, which is more or less the point of Agnostism.

But Agnostism is just I don't know.. it's a pointless system because it means you have to be agnostic about everything that could 'possibly' be…

I'm not sure that the absence of something needs to be…

It seems to me that agnosticism is the only strictly rational position on spirituality. Unfortunately, many athiests prefer not to accept that their own religious belief (the unprovable assertion that there is no god) is open to serious critique.

True, but surely this is solely due to the infinite space/time…

No, I think you and others profoundly misunderstand Dawkins' positision. He would rather ignore religion. He would rather continue to write great books like the Selfish Gene, Blind…

As it turns out, most religions makes claims about their beleif being the right one. So you can't just shrug your shoulders, and say, "Each to their own", or "Doesn't everyone have their own set of beliefs and we should respect that."

Deborah's point is well made. The problem with…

The Flying Spaghetti Monster, while clever and entertaining, is not a…

There's also 2 discussions with E O Wilson on his latest book – Creation

. . and may we all one day be touched by His Noodly Appendage.

Here's an extract from it:

It concerns a friend of mine, who was present at a high-powered ethics institute which had put on a forum in which representatives of the great religions held a…

Well, I'd be curious to know why Satanists are inherintly more risible than other religious groups.

Because it's the only religion founded solely on the principle of upsetting your parents.

I asked you this once before, and you didn't want to answer, but it is a sincere question: why do you believe what you do?

Well I am not Craig but I like the question and wanted to answer.

The problem with being asked to prove what I believe removes…

I have mixed feelings about the camp's enforced closure. On one hand those lunatics were perpetrating something akin to child abuse. On the other, they're closing because their compound was vandalised…

Well, I'd be curious to know why Satanists are inherintly more risible than other religious groups.

Perhaps it's the fact that Satanism is really a Christian heresy, and therefore contingent on that which it claims to abhor.

Well, you be dealing with Satanists that are harking back to a more…

If that isn't delusional, I don't know what is.

Well, I'd be curious to know why Satanists are inherintly more risible than other religious groups.

Perhaps it's the fact that Satanism is really a Christian heresy, and therefore contingent on that which it claims to abhor. That's pretty lame.

Satanists are also just funny.

The whole religion thing has never excited me personally, but if others feel it helps them be a better person, in ways generally agreed upon by me of course, then all power to them.

I'm not so comfortable about playing along with other people's little delusions. I have been thinking…

You're right Michael, there would be some debate on the social cohesion question.

Well, it's a case that could be made, and both the Romans and Greeks were very big one it (and Gibbon, of course, was scathing about the effects of Christianity on the Roman Empire in that regard);…

Oh, I should point out that there's one group: I think should be mercilessly mocked: Satanists.

They're hilarious.

Or am I being unfair?

Well, I'd be curious to know why Satanists are inherintly more risible than other religious groups.

Years ago, as a small child, I was convinced, although nobody had told me that this was the case, that our local butcher was God. Sounds like a joke but I think the belief came from a children's bible my grandmother gave me which…

Why don't we have a referendum on whether or not there is a god?

Nah. Let's have a dumb self-selecting mail-in campaign. We'll ask if there's a God, everyone who believes in Him will write in to say yes, absolutely, and that'll settle it.

And if there is one we can ask him to build us a waterfront stadium on time for the next world cup.

But for others, if you believe that our existence can only be explained by Intelligent Design, you can find out who made us…

I believe there is a difference between knowledge and understanding. It is called direct experience. There is also a difference between the essence of spirituality (our oneness with the universe) and religion (the business of selling stories as truths).

Nicely phrased.

Years ago, I sat next to the bed where…

It seems to me that Communism played a psychological role very similar…

Richard Dawkins vs Ted Haggard

Dawkins tries to present science and rationality as the ultimate solution to life, the universe and everything

...and if we happen to agree?

that's a fair call.. all I've read has been snipperts and it's entirely possible (likely) that the axe being ground is the quoter's rather than his.

That’s my problem with Dawkins also.. whilst I agree completely with skewering the irrationality…

What we believe or do not believe is not arguable. What we feel or do not feel is not arguable. Neither is it able to be proven or not. That is the point. It just is.

But why we believe it and feel it and whether it is reasonable to…

Dawkins too closely resembles Ann Coulter for mine – glib, bitter, divisive, and arrogant.

Can we kindly quit with the comparison to Coulter every time we dislike someone, unless they have literally called for the wholesale extermination of anyone who won't submit to the forced conversion to a religion of…

But I am not expert, so my major interaction with the theory is a relationship…

Satanism may be ridiculous but it is the only opportunity that IT engineers have to get sex, at least without having to dress up as furry animals.

Hmmm. I guess naff sex is better than no sex at all ...

They're hilarious.

Or am I being unfair?

Right back at ya, mate. There are more things I find more annoying than being judged by atheists as being a heartbeat away from burning down the nearest library once I've massacred every infidel within reach.

Ben does have a point there Craig, at least as regards the land Dawkins…

This is exactly the point – as time goes on, the "right" god to choose changes with the prevailing state of collective human knowledge.

Yahweh and Jesus are obviously past their sell-by dates, so pantheistic solutions arise in later times that are more palatable, and fit…

DAWKINS: There could be something incredibly grand and incomprehensible and beyond our present understanding.

COLLINS: That's God.

Mr Collins wants to be careful here. We don't currently know what the origins of the universe are and Mr Collins feels it can be attributed to his God. But 150 years ago…

Even if God does exist, if he is outside nature and so outside space and time, then he does not matter.

Ah, but you see, at the same time he's outside nature, he's also micromanaging everything. Collins seems to have several sorts of God to call on, depending…

Right back at ya, mate. There are more things I find more annoying than being judged by atheists as being a heartbeat away from…

DAWKINS: There could be something incredibly grand and incomprehensible and beyond our present understanding.…

Hayden Green: God ... can be removed from all scientific equations.

The kind of people that make arguments like Collins would never put God in a scientific equation to start with. That's sort of the point.

He would rather be arguing with other scientists about the mechanics of evolution, instead he feels he has been forced into a rear-guard action…

He suffers from sounding a bit preachy and maybe a bit too hard on religion but it's worth a read.

By saying 'good' (and by linking to it) I'm not endorsing everything Eagleton writes. Indeed, as a good agnostic I'm sitting on the fence with the review as with the whole God Thing.

I thought…

(You've got to love that photo.)

Here's a famous…

Except, the exceptions are notable...like, er, the Pope.

Yet another of many reasons to oppose faith based schools (whether Islamist, Christian or the Great Juju).

COLLINS: By being outside of nature, God is also outside of space and time.

Well if that's the case then God is outside of our system (i.e. the universe) and hence can be removed from all scientific equations.

Therefore, by the laws of probability, God has already committed suicide.

There are few things I find more annoying than being judged by a Bible literalist as being amoral due to my atheist position.

anti-theist

Perhaps just a motivated Atheist? :P

However, I do insist on proper nouns being capitalised.

Well... I don't capitalise 'fairy' or 'unicorn' either, and I didn't think we were talking about any god in particular, just the concept of god in general.

To be fair to Christians, most do not believe in Intelligent Design.

Bah, you moderate (haha!)..

Yeah, I'm not so fair. ID is no more, or less, logical [to me] than any other religious doctrine.

Paul, of course science doesn't answer moral questions. But his rejection of moral questions as "remarkably stupid" in that Salon interview implied that we should be concerned with them.

Anyway, I've never…

So anti-theists could either believe or not believe in god, but if they did believe in god, they would also think that god is a bad thing.

I like the Bakunin analysis.

The interesting aspect of the Collins/Dawkins debate is that Collins could only make conjectures about a god. The…

Atheists don't believe in god. Anti-theists are against god.

I would have thought anti-theists were people that were against theists (ie, were annoyed by theists/those who believe in god)

The Russian Anarchist Mikhal Bakunin once said (something along the lines of) that if god did exist it would be necessary to destroy him. The argument runs that putting our faith in a supreme being ingrains a respect for natural heirarchy…

I'm firmly in the camp of anti-theist rather than atheist

anti-theist_

I'm not familiar with the term, and how it is different from "atheist". Could you explain it for me?

Ta.

I'm firmly in the camp of anti-theist rather than atheist and found the Time intro sort of annoying:

"Roman Catholicism's Christoph Cardinal Schönborn has dubbed the most fervent of faith-challenging scientists followers of "scientism"…

The Richard Dawkins and Teg Haggart interview is particularly interesting in light of later events. You can find it on YouTube (can't get to YouTube from here, but just search for DAWKINS and you'll find it) in the 'Root…