Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: The GCSB Bill: We at least have to try

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:27:04 +1200

Nine people per year.

On average. It might have been two in 2004 and 20 in 2011, which would have looked different. Nice bit of framing, which he used more than once.

Graeme Edgeler

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:21:13 +1200

Key says the 88 cases the GCSB did under the “old law” was on nine people. Only nine????? Hmmm…seems an awful lot of people following the few.

Nine people per year.

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:54:48 +1200

I've written up an analysis of what I thought happened in the interview.

Raymond A Francis

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:28:27 +1200

Fair enough but regarding "the fool" via "The Standard" comments

To Brian Edwards’ re his snippy Twitter comment…….get over yourself. The public interest as identified by the Law Society, Palmer, Salmond, Human Rights, Privacy and the rest is immeasurably more commanding than your self-accorded status as professor emeritus of New…

Hilary Cameron

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:21:53 +1200

That's what I thought, too, given that Campbell has been criticised in the past for being too combative. Was he holding back? I really wanted him to keep the PM on point but he allowed him to wander rather that distilling the interview down to a few pertinent points.

There…

HenryB

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:17:24 +1200

I thought this was actually a textbook demonstration of the problem with being too polite to your highly media-trained subject.

And also, seemingly, to lack `command' of the relevant legislation and the objections to it. Given that Campbell has been `on fire' on this subject (as someone said earlier in…

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 11:09:52 +1200

Dr Edwards who most would agree knows about interviews and can hardly said to have a right wing bias (though I don’t doubt at least one fool will claim that his conclusion shows he must have one and that he is consequently a class traitor)

Edwards has a massive chip…

Raymond A Francis

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 10:07:48 +1200

Likewise Brian Edwards via twitter

"Raving is not interviewing, John. A graceless and embarrassing performance. This from your greatest fan. Brian"

Dr Edwards who most would agree knows about interviews and can hardly said to have a right wing bias (though I don’t doubt at least one fool will claim…

"chris"

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:26:18 +1200

number 88

(八 = 8 = bā) in Chinese net-speak 88 is customarily used as 'bye bye'. If only...
8 is also the luckiest number..unfortunately 9 represents longevity, tangentially.

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 08:13:13 +1200

So this morning youtube started playing me ads in Arabic .... will the NSA get the wrong idea? will the GCSB send some guys with handlebar mustaches around to knock on my door? I have nothing to hide, honest

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:36:05 +1200

a piano has 88 keys!*
…on nine people. Only nine?????
Yeah, I noticed that too, in amongst all his patronising “okays” ( are you following this, am I going to fast for you fools – seems to be what ‘okay’ means on Planet Key – it’s also used by con…

Gary Young

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:27:48 +1200

The scary thing is there will be people out there who will think the prime minister acquitted himself well on Campbell Live tonight...

Audrey Young in this morning's Herald certainly thinks so.

Ross Mason

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:25:12 +1200

DeepRed's link has this video

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/opinion/the-national-security-agencys-domestic-spying-program.html

Is this what happens when agencies begin to spy on their citizens?

No thanks.

Kumara Republic

Thu, 15 Aug 2013 00:16:13 +1200

Nothing to hide, nothing to fear? Pass me a Tui Billboard.

NY Times: How Laura Poitras Helped Snowden Spill His Secrets

Sacha

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 22:37:36 +1200

Someone has to keep an eye on that pesky Jon Stephenson fellow.

Ross Mason

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:45:57 +1200

Hmmm.. Key says the 88 cases the GCSB did under the "old law" was on nine people. Only nine????? Hmmm...seems an awful lot of people following the few.

The Kitteridge report says this on page 6:

"All relevant instances of assistance (concerning 88 individuals in total), dating between…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:20:21 +1200

I think what JK was trying to say on Campbell was. “They can just record the meta data and store it forever , you know, like the file number or something, and we can only use it in court if we get a warrant. We cant stop the machines looking…

"chris"

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:37:05 +1200

Hmm, Norton Antivirus, rather apt…

The main reason of this controversy is the users of Norton is wondering to trust a file name “PIFTS.exe” which was prompted by Norton firewall as it tries to access the internet. According to the internet, “PIFTS.exe” is logging all of their users activities and…

Katita

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 20:03:27 +1200

I've just watched John Key's appearance on Campbell Live tonight and am frankly gobsmacked. Apparently the GCSB is just like having Norton Anti-virus installed on my PC (for free). There's no correlation between the passing of this bill and our recent warm reception in Washington, nor any linkage to the…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:57:51 +1200

Some very interesting dot-connecting by Frank Macskasy

Time for an Internet Blackout v2.0, methinks?

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:57:17 +1200

Key is the fear...
The scary thing is there will be people out there who will think the prime minister acquitted himself well on Campbell Live tonight...
What a cold fish, and such dead eyes – I think he blinked once – as he trotted out all the usual platitudes…

nzlemming

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:09:28 +1200

Some very interesting dot-connecting by Frank Macskasy

nzlemming

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 19:00:48 +1200

therefore presumably have access to info useful to NZDF that NZDF doesn’t necessarily have the ability to intercept itself.

Defence Signals division might disagree with you there ;-) The inclusion of NZDF in the bill looks like covering all the bases to me.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 17:23:54 +1200

I do think there is a largish group in NZ who buy into the bullshit and actually *want* the government to spy on freaks, geeks and wierdos.

Setting aside the issue of freaks geeks wierdos and other Green party voters ...

I do believe there is a role for an…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:46:51 +1200

and actually *want* the government to spy on freaks, geeks and wierdos

The retort I conjured up for that lot is "Imagine that Winston is PM and Hone is the Minister of Police. How do you like them sweeping surveillance apples?"

Matthew Poole

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:45:25 +1200

And the children! They're thinking of the children! That's what these latest protection orders are about, along with allowing the GCSB to turn its collective beady eyes on paedophiles. The children!

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:45:22 +1200

So, John Key is going to get the GCSB to sort out Snapper and stop it failing to register when people get off the bus and charging them $6? Admirable, but free buses would probably be cheaper.

But srsly, I do think there is a largish group in NZ who…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:38:54 +1200

They’ve clearly had a strategic rethink

Someone did a poll

I'm sure we'll discover it was all Labour's fault anyway ... and the earthquake ... and the GFC

Matthew Poole

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 16:31:54 +1200

They’ve clearly had a strategic rethink.

Decided to say to Campbell's face that Kiwis are more interested in snapper than the GCSB legislation, maybe?

Russell Brown

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:46:03 +1200

Excellent piece Russell. Campbell Live’s webpage says John Key is on the show tonight.

Interesting, eh? They've clearly had a strategic rethink.

Stewart

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:49:04 +1200

Oh, we must always question him. Incessantly, until he "leaves the building".

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:40:50 +1200

Porcine Airways presents...
Campbell Live’s webpage says John Key is on the show tonight.
OMG, Hell has frozen over!

Hope they show him saying he wouldn't appear – at the end of that press conference – still we live in dynamic times with fluid events , so if Chameleon Key…

Bruce Grey

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:30:04 +1200

Excellent piece Russell. Campbell Live's webpage says John Key is on the show tonight.

Tom Semmens

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:17:50 +1200

I haven’t seen anything to say the GCSB will be able to help NZDF with internal security. I would’ve thought they’d be supplying NZDF with intel about external threats.

Every single instance where we’ve glimpsed the operations of our spies, they’ve been spying on us. And under existing law the…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:43:49 +1200

I don' know, Tom, I haven't seen anything to say the GCSB will be able to help NZDF with internal security. I would've thought they'd be supplying NZDF with intel about external threats. After all, not only was GCSB founded to be the foreign intelligence agency, they're also supposed to…

Tom Semmens

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:32:42 +1200

Thomas Beagle notes “…Firstly, everyone agrees that section 8C of the Bill will allow the GCSB to spy on New Zealanders on behalf of the SIS, Police or NZ Defense Force…”

The defense force? This raises a whole range of disturbing issues that need to be thrashed out. Who decided,…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:24:23 +1200

Something that had passed me by, and I think probably passed by just about everyone else, was Ferguson on a panel at NetHui where he explained the nature of the GCSB's assistance when he was director:

"I received a warrant signed and duly checked by the inspector of warrants and…

Tristan

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 12:14:23 +1200

fair enough happy to be wrong on this, i asked him on the tweets and he never got back to me i wasn't #trollin honest

Paul Campbell

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:47:06 +1200

ha!

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:19:48 +1200

Smarmite?
Nice, spread the word!

linger

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 10:29:09 +1200

Key is [...] a whole new bad taste
Smarmite? which would explain his propensity to smear...

Russell Brown

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:53:55 +1200

Grower certainly looked like he was laughing at the new girl on his turf was pretty sickening to be honest

I wonder if you guys might be over-interpreting. Rebecca Wright is an experienced reporter with a rep for doorstepping and pursuing politicians (to a fault sometimes, imo), Gower was probably…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:53:15 +1200

to persuade her husband [Dunne] not sell us out

It's worth remembering that it's not just him selling us out. The same could be said of any National MP.

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 09:24:36 +1200

Meet Maxi-millionaire Headroom!
Lend me your ears…

Paul Campbell

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:36:24 +1200

Boing-boing: NZ prime minister John Key: We have to spy on you because al-Qaeda has training camps here. Also: FISH!

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:14:28 +1200

At least scaredy-cat Key was honest at the end of that piece, when he said he didn't think he'd go on the Campbell Live show, great opportunity for the other parties to fill the vacuum.
Key is a karmic vacuum all by himself, as well as a whole new bad…

Tristan

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 08:08:55 +1200

Grower certainly looked like he was laughing at the new girl on his turf was pretty sickening to be honest

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 07:49:44 +1200

Nega-Tory
...the government’s insistence that not only does New Zealand want or need any further discussion of this striking piece of legislation, but that New Zealanders themselves aren’t even interested.
"...not only does New Zealand not want or need any further discussion..." surely?

Kumara Republic

Wed, 14 Aug 2013 01:25:30 +1200

The internecine bullshit inside TV3 News is unbelievable but, as I don't work there, my knowledge is second-hand anecdata so you'll have to ask someone who does work there. Gower cares more about his "access" to top politicians than actually getting real information.

Wonder if he'll still keep a straight…

nzlemming

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 23:13:17 +1200

Gower is a dick, always has been. Garner wasn't much better but if he hadn't moved on, Gower wouldn't be getting any airtime at all. I think he was more chortling about Wright because she's Cambell Live, which isn't "real news" doncha know. The internecine bullshit inside TV3 News is…

Myles Thomas

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 22:55:21 +1200

You're right, Campbell is on fire with this. Tonight's show starts with a replay of the PM's petulant response to fob off Amanda Wright – but look at Paddy Gower giggling away in the background. Does he look to you to be in awe of the PM? Am I just…

David Hood

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:49:47 +1200

This just crossed my reading list
Research: Intelligence Agents mak more irrational decisions than college students

Roger Lacey

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:23:21 +1200

So many Government computer systems have been found to have huge security holes in them that to enable a department to compile and store sensitive data about its citizens is an even bigger risk to national security than not collecting it in the first place.

dcnbwz

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:21:59 +1200

Having just watched an episode of series 2 Sopranos – I do believe that was John Key's best 'Jackie Aprile Manson peepers' impression in that 3 news clip too.....

Rob Stowell

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:13:42 +1200

Billboard pledge soooo close to the target it’s probably over it by now!
Yay.

Kumara Republic

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:12:24 +1200

Poetic justice would be someone doing an Ed Snowden on those who support this whole mess.

And is there a better kind of awareness campaign, than Canada's If Day during World War II? It greatly exceeded the organisers' expectations, by way of simulating an Axis military occupation.

I'm thinking an…

JP Hansen

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 21:08:14 +1200

I watched the Campbell Live show yesterday as I saw it was filmed in the Manganui Fish Shop. Imagine my disappointment when I learned the show wasn’t based on Snapper at all. I won't stand for his fish-based deception, John Campbell.

Andre

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 20:51:46 +1200

I saw a Facebook post from Marijuana campaigner Billy McKee saying he had attended a protest outside Peter Dunne's home. Megaphones etc. That's pressure and it takes this whole debate further past petition stage for many. I bet Dunne's wife was not amused though and in reality it is not…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 20:21:42 +1200

This whole issue deserves to be the No Nukes of the 21st Century.

Euan Mason

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:54:20 +1200

On a lighter note, John Key has finally figured out why they call them "keyholes".

Euan Mason

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:53:24 +1200

Apart from the poor process, which is better described as appalling, metadata is the most significant issue. Would MPs be happy to provide leaders of opposing political parties with a daily log of their phone calls, their email correspondents and all the websites they've visited? No? Then they should not…

Martin Brown

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:44:15 +1200

I think we should take it as given that GCSB has been providing God knows what to NSA for as long as they've had cute little domes at Waihopai. We are a member of Echelon or 5 Eyes or what have you and have been for a long time. Yes,…

Russell Brown

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:29:51 +1200

In that case why are we OK with the SIS and Police spying on us, but not the GCSB? Does the GCSB have much better technology or something?

As I said in the post, I think you can make an argument for the GCSB (or a new agency) to provide…

Idiot Savant

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 19:15:15 +1200

The Police have to get a proper warrant from a judge, which can be challenged at trial. GCSB and SIS only need a warrant from the PM, and because its secret it can never be challenged.

Joshua Arbury

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:51:52 +1200

I am sure someone can clarify this issue, but it seems that the point of the GCSB Bill is to give the GCSB powers to do what the SIS and Police do now (rather than focusing on international issues). In that case why are we OK with the SIS and…

John Morrison

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:43:09 +1200

Yeah thanks Russell. I'm sick of Key trying to distract us from this important issue

chris esther

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:37:11 +1200

Honestly I expected better of Nikki Kaye but I guess once at the cabinet table you’re fully committed to the party line.

Her line for the need for the bill was based on immigration concerns that she was aware of but obviously couldn’t provide any meaningful details on.

Given those…

Martin Brown

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:28:00 +1200

Good post Russell. Interestingly, Dunne is the only pro-bill MP I've had a reply from on this issue – he pushed his agenda, but he did get back and it wasn't a form response. Ten years aho every letter would receive a reply, out of common courtesy at least. (Actually,…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:27:26 +1200

the government’s insistence that not only does New Zealand want or need any further discussion of this striking piece of legislation

Perhaps you mean the government’s insistence that not only does New Zealand not want or need any further discussion of this striking piece of legislation?

dcnbwz

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:22:53 +1200

It seems the people of New Zealand are under attack from all directions, and our democracy is being demolished at a rapid rate. It's quite clear these guys are corrupt and display open contempt at anything that sits outside their agenda of neoliberal policies and corporate entrenchment. Democracy seems to…

nzlemming

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:20:33 +1200

Was exactly the line MED officials took when justifying (Labour's) Copyright Amendment Bill. The terrorists are always winning, it seems.

Damn sneaky, these terrists.

Don Christie

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:18:55 +1200

Fantastic round up Russell. Many thanks.

weapons of mass destruction research, drug smuggling, people smuggling

Was exactly the line MED officials took when justifying (Labour's) Copyright Amendment Bill. The terrorists are always winning, it seems.

Ana Simkiss

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:15:52 +1200

Here is a point re metadata I haven't seen (dusts off rusty public law knowledge): I, a person, can do anything not prohibited by law. Government generally speaking is in the opposite position; it can do nothing if not authorised to do it. Whether you can read some sort of…

Idiot Savant

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:06:49 +1200

Also: anyone in wellington up for a quick petition drive in Ohariu to try and get peter Dunne to change his mind? I'm tempted to hitch a train down, but I think we'd need more than one person to get a credible number of signatures in the narrow amount of…

Idiot Savant

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:05:08 +1200

Alarmingly, the bill is still silent on the issue of metadata — for example, the records of phone calls or emails made and received and by whom, rather than the calls or emails themseves. It appears the GCSB can simply do as it wishes there.

Metadata is very clearly a…

Public Address

Tue, 13 Aug 2013 18:05:08 +1200

Discussion from blog post.