(I have often wondered how the Electoral Commission pick their languages to translate. German and Dutch are absent from their translations).

Ran it past a Russian colleague, who said that Winnie’s claimed translation is correct and “a tidier translation is definitely available”.

ETA: hopefully voters who are relying on the translation…

"Put a tick next to the flag that in your opinion should become the New Zealand flag"

Technically he's correct. One is our existing flag and only…

think that was more about being a weirdo/pervert

Although it is another case of the OCR (Overseas Coverage Rebound), where a mention in the international media gets picked up by us (because nobody else cares) after it's been written by us in the first…

Granted that was a scandal, but trying to define it as his biggest scandal seems to be completely ignoring…

That's not a fair comment until you've compared it against the certaified Fairfax list of celebrities against change.

Lorde's mum Sonya Yelich-O'Connor, choreographer Parris Goebel, rower and politician Rob Hamill, actor Sam Neill, socialite Sally Ridge, and model Colin…

To be fair, the 'X-men' flag is pretty cool....

Thanks for your constructive comment Emma. I'm not sure that cheap point scoring adds much to the conversation, but whatever...

Even if I'd dug the hole all sneaky and a-purpose, which I didn't, nobody forced you to jump in it.

At what point did…

Sorry but I've never seen any of his posts here and the name wasn't familiar. His Twitter profile refers to a site which I checked, but there's no website there. A reference in the original post ("Phil... who works for the Electoral…

FFS Phil Lyth often comments here. Really, shouldn't you have done some fact checking?

His “friend” is the person who did the translating for the Electoral Commission.

Again, that's impossible to guess from the original tweet. So the…

ah the good old days

"Someone on the internet" is Phil Lyth, who works for the Electoral Commission. His "friend" is the person who did the…

Of course it is. While sub-editing is becoming a lost art on both the Herald and Stuff, Isaac Davison is an experienced journo and it would would have taken less than five minutes for him to verify the facts before putting his name to this…

Is this a serious question?

I guess for every statement that's ever made, "somebody on the internet" will argue the opposite position Emma. In this case you're quoting a "friend" of somebody on Twitter.

You'd expect a major news organisation like the…

You might want to hold on and see if that's actually true first.

Designed to confuse 100,000 voters? Or…

Interesting to hear how the voting paper ended up as it did then.

Pretty much this. Pig-ugly versus boring. Choose pig-ugly and the country…

I don't think the old flag would be proscribed – and any attempt to do so might come unstuck (R v Morse said you can burn flags, so I guess you can fly them).

no that path leads to madness

I never said there would be no costs. But Bart was talking about total refurbs of buildings, carpets, letterheads, the works. That's not going to happen. It would top out at a couple of hundred plaques…

True but there's very few that use the coat of arms as a logo if any. And even fewer that use it on their letterhead or corporate branding. That's what costs. Ask MBIE.

So? It has the flag. It does not suddenly cease to be valid because it no longer displays the current flag. The crown that tops it was worn by Liz at her coronation (included in a re-design in 1956), so will we re-design again when Chuck…

If we were having a referendum about something important I would probably do it. Like ALL of the Swiss ones are. I do actually care about things like whether there…

It is, certainly. However, the things I write might have more impact. I consider them worth the time. Also, I like writing, debating and arguing. Filling out silly forms and mailing them, not so…

I have sympathy for your argument. However, the number of lengthy posts you have made here stating that you don't want…

You're talking about Switzerland Ben — they have nine scheduled this year. Some…

Well this in every town has the flag. Our Courts. (Article only for Emphasis)…

Show me evidence of the use of the flag as a logo in government, Bart. Please, show me. I want to see the error of my understanding.

I have seen multitudes…

The implication being there are less idiotic ones?

I did say guesstimate. I don't think anyone knows. And I doubt we'll ever know, because the flag won't change and when it does change most of the costs will…

interestingly originally selected by a public competition;
History
The first recorded move to establish…

Yeah.... I know... but....

But it's not a logo change. The flag, from memory, doesn't appear in any department's logo (I'm open to correction,…

Have you ever been through a logo change?

Everything changes. The marketing team changes everything, all the colours on carpets, all the paintwork, business cards, company umberellas, office chairs.

Everything.

You don't think all our government departments will go through those changes as a result of the…

So y'mean nearly $8000 then?

None of the other 300 flags around the country are the wrong colour, the spokeswoman said.

What else could go wrong with this imposter? It should…

From the initial budget for the process, one would imagine. Like all the "demo" flags that have been sent around the place.

... which obviously has already been paid.

Those guesstimates keep on coming up, and they never have any evidence attached. Yes, actual flags will have to be replaced. Uniformed services…

that'd be one charming fleg

Would this flag make you want to:
– buy New Zealand produce?
– take your next holiday in New Zealand?
– have carnal relations with a New Zealander?
-…

he lost on points

they do all love trotting out that line.

My god, he's wrestled with this.

Mark of the beast. This is pure vintage Mike Moore, in his lamburger incarnation as Minister…

Him (who regularly comments on Matthew's posts, usually to take the opposite and, coincidentally I'm sure, vaguely National POV – Matthew will correct me if I'm misrepresenting this chap)
I have been in both camps but…

lol.

and Fernleaf use a realistic fern representation,
if only that idea would spread...

And, apart from the failure to put a designer on the consideration panel, the near-empty rooms at public consultations, the mockery from international media, the decision not to listen to public views after…

However, there are only two possible results :
– the flag is changed
– the flag is…

Good point linger… probably not. But at least we can’t blame kids’ immaturity and lack of vision for the poor decisions being made on our behalf in both cases.

One last thought: can you imagine changing the national anthem and having no musicians?

That is what we did here.

We tried to change the flag with no-one with a fucking clue about flags or design anywhere in the mix and we got exactly…

Probably partly associated with Party Support – the Under 30s significantly more likely to vote for/support parties of the Left Bloc than the Right.…

Could be waiting for something worth upgrading to? They do tend to have been exposed to more sophisticated design language their whole online lives than previous generations ever saw. Put the aoteatowel alongside anything by Apple.

NLP describes it perfectly – "what colour do you want your bowl, representing the sky, to be?"

The designer’s intent is that the multiple points of the fern leaf represent…

This carefully misses the fact that it was designed and submitted to Governor George Bowen, and accepted by him in 1869, though based on the British naval Blue Ensign.

Sure, and the binary choice in the referendum conflates a whole range of views too. Most people saying keep the Union Jack are not doing it out of love for the Union Jack. All the signals are diluted. My signal is…

I tentatively agree, but I’d not want to rush it. There’s no reason why the conversation can’t continue to happen, why people can’t continue to propose flags and talk about them, nor why…

Which 1000,000 chose at the last Election. So yes, that 1000,000 has been significant in itself. I suspect the number of disengaged will be an interesting observation. Frankly, the mickey mouse affair of this debacle so far has created…

What worries me is…

Why decades? As Labour and Greens(?) have always been keen with public approval and with a proper process, for a flag change, I submit we could be up against change pretty soon, once a good design…

There is a direct count. The number people on the electoral roll less those who voted, informally or…

Talking to my 20 something y/o children and cohort, its more lack of engagement. Why change it? No good reason? Okay move along nothing to see here, leave it alone. Voting papers will go…

(Tip: Tables look best via laptop – otherwise look a bit messy)

– Mr Mark/swordfish

I think the flag that best represents Key, Farar, Hooten, Croby, Textor et al is a giant kids windmill, pointlessly spinning.

Better…

One thing is for certain I don't think NZ should go forth with the representative colours being principally black and blue. Then…

Key losing on the flag would have several positive outcomes:
– firstly, it demoralises the man and brings the time closer when he retires to Hawaii or gets gifted some…

As for the flag design itself, Mies van der Rohe said it best: "less is more." The adopted flags of Canada and South Africa pass…

I'm sorry we have already filled that position.

However, your interest in that role has been noted and you are now 2618473rd in the queue.

Is anyone saying that though?

For the majority I see here and everywhere else the design is the primary factor, Key is a bonus but only because of the former and only if…

But as for those here saying petulantly that they won't vote for anything Key endorses, grow up. Fair enough if you were against the whole process and the lack of proper consultation. But if that wasn't a concern, even if Key…

No Rich, we have elections to choose parliaments, and if we are collectively daft enough to choose the National Party then we must exert all our efforts to reduce the consequent damage.

Because if we spend our money on a BAD flag we will all feel really shitty about it for ages and be thinking of all the actually nice things we could…

The first is that the proposed new flag just looks ugly and is a design nightmare. It looks like the sort of thing that a fifth form design student would rattle off when he / she had forgotten to…

The conclusion from this would be that either:
– we should never, ever consider changing our…

I think he's pointing out that because the government gets to spend so much of our money we shouldn't care when it pisses down the toilet tiny amounts like $60 million dollars which realistically could never amount to anything of value if it was spent anywhere else so…

If the flag referendum wasn’t happening, where would that money go. It’s indeterminate?

Sure, it might go on Bart’s allegedly useful research. It might go to GCSB to buy spying hardware, it might add to the…

And risk ending up with the tea towel flag?

I'll certainly be registering my protest by voting to keep the current flag. Not because I have any particular affinity to the…

Like countless celebs before them (Exhibit A: the Oscars) they…

Mm, the current flag has been in official use for 114 years, so I'm going to assume that the Lockwood flag would be in use for at least that long.

It doesn't work to think that voting for the Lockwood…

would pay for our research for the next 20 years!

Which is also not true.

We can change our minds as many times as we can be bothered.

However, like the government department that changes its logo every three years, there is a cost ... real dollars ... guesstimates for…

Tactically I kinda half-hope you're right, but strategically I fucking pray you're wrong, because…

From Stuff’s report on Key announcing the referendum in a speech to the RSA back in 2014:

The Prime Minister had softened his preference for a silver fern on a black background,…

Then, you've got probably half the right-wing vote who are inveterate conservatives ("'we' killed…

What is the evidence for the second assertion? I mean the Key involvement with Lockwood, not its impropriety.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/flagvote

I’m an inveterate incrementalist, but this is not a case of incremental change. We don’t get a do-over on this.…

The singular achievement of Mr Key and his pro-change acolytes is to have ruined a good idea for a long time. A huge proportion of those who will vote to retain the current flag will do so regretfully; they would prefer…

So Labour voters who are against it are against it because of John Key, but National…