Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: The crybaby philosopher

Rich Lock

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 20:15:04 +1200

ACT supporters are very pleased with Dr Whyte's peformance.

The Emperor's health has never been better.

Sacha

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 18:15:38 +1200

For Whyte to proclaim that *anyone* else is "out of their depth" is beyond Python.

FletcherB

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 17:15:12 +1200

It's getting funnier...

Last week, Whyte said Susan Devoy should resign for butting into a political argument where she didn't belong, and now this week she should resign for not butting in quickly enough...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11307143

Geoff Lealand

Sun, 10 Aug 2014 16:00:46 +1200

Splutter! Whyte and his compatriots live a peculiar cuckoo land.

Kumara Republic

Sun, 10 Aug 2014 14:37:25 +1200

Guys! The Act Party press release declaring Whyte the winner of the minor party leaders' debate is totally awesome.

Not surprisingly, Whyte didn't take long to fill his quota of Reductio ad Stalinum. And in other news, the Pope is Catholic.

linger

Sun, 10 Aug 2014 13:58:21 +1200

Act Party press release declaring Whyte the winner of the minor party leaders’ debatei.e. the gold minor; at least, that's their claim

Joe Wylie

Sun, 10 Aug 2014 13:45:05 +1200

Guys! The Act Party press release declaring Whyte the winner of the minor party leaders’ debate is totally awesome.
He out-pygmied those other wannabe political pygmies!

Russell Brown

Sun, 10 Aug 2014 12:55:42 +1200

Guys! The Act Party press release declaring Whyte the winner of the minor party leaders' debate is totally awesome.

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 08:56:15 +1200

I thought that interview with Whyte was quite funny.

(Paraphrased)
Wilson: "Was this a stunt?"
Whyte: "*splutter, cough*, I, look, no, see, well, look, just, that's, can I, I don't [tries to change subject]..."
Whyte: [interrrupts]"Was it a stunt?"

(rinse, repeat).

It was just so entertainingly transparent. He'd clearly decided…

Sacha

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 18:24:13 +1200

Dr Whyte sounds visibly off guard on NatRad Checkpoint right now.

resigner McCallum (3m30, options): http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/20144655/act-member-resigns-over-leader%27s-race-relations-speech

.. then the Whyte whine (3m21): http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/20144657/act-party-leader-denies-race-row-%27stunt%27

David Hood

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:34:36 +1200

It thought Whyte's sputtering on Checkpoint was crying out for a remix, though I realise that is not debating the "issues"

Kumara Republic

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 17:20:53 +1200

Dr Whyte sounds visibly off guard on NatRad Checkpoint right now.

Kumara Republic

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 09:59:16 +1200

Act board member and Dunedin North candidate Guy McCallum has resigned in what looks like disgust with Whyte:

If it's the case, then the divide between the Douglasite intellectuals and the Prebbleite populists hasn't really gone away.

Russell Brown

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 08:10:21 +1200

Act board member and Dunedin North candidate Guy McCallum has resigned in what looks like disgust with Whyte:

“In fact, I didn’t know the Hamilton speech was coming,” claims McCallum. “Jamie was in Dunedin for a small gathering of ACT supporters on the morning of 20 July, and he mentioned…

Michael Meyers

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 20:18:43 +1200

One thing that concerns me a little about the privilege argument is that it could easily be the start of a further erosion of privileges that we take for granted.

Unemployment benefit is a bit of a privilege that only a few people get. As is health care and the…

Martin Lindberg

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 18:10:30 +1200

I assume Jamie Whyte is subscribing to the same newsletter as Alabama Republican Congressman Mo Brooks.

“We should not be dividing anybody based on national heritage or race. Rather, we should be bringing us all together. That’s what the melting pot ideal of America is all about. A person’s skin…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 12:22:22 +1200

He really didn’t have a plan, did he ? I was waiting for him to lecture Maori about how it all could be fixed if we just pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps. What a lightweight.

Or to put it more bluntly: "Goldfish only have themselves to blame for not…

Mikaere Curtis

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 12:00:51 +1200

__I actually thought the most remarkable point was when, pressed on how inequality of opportunity could be conquered, the first thing he said was “a good education”. It didn’t seem to occur to him that in railing against tertiary admission schemes in his speech, he was set against that very…

Carol Stewart

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 11:55:14 +1200

blackwhyte

Fifty shades of Whyte?

Kumara Republic

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 11:31:46 +1200

I actually thought the most remarkable point was when, pressed on how inequality of opportunity could be conquered, the first thing he said was “a good education”. It didn’t seem to occur to him that in railing against tertiary admission schemes in his speech, he was set against that very…

Russell Brown

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:56:39 +1200

Also, Giovanni expresses his thoughts on Whyte with his customary elegance.

Russell Brown

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:55:51 +1200

And in yesterday's developments: Whyte's trainwreck of an interview on Native Affairs, where he revealed his "ignorance" (his word) of the sector on which he has been lecturing by never having heard of Whanau Ora.

To be fair, I think many of us would be hard pressed to describe Whanau Ora…

HORansome

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:34:33 +1200

Anyone who splutters latte onto his scarf in outrage about it is, simply, a fucking idiot.

The “You’re not reading the speech right” argument seems very popular (and certainly it’s Whyte’s contention), but if most people go “That’s an inappropriate analogy!” then the right response isn’t to say “The fools!”…

WH

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 23:52:43 +1200

Whyte acknowledges that:

[I]n our ordinary use of the word, it is absurd to say that Maori are privileged. The average life expectancy of Maori is significantly lower than Pakeha and Asian. Average incomes are lower. Average educational achievement is lower.

Why then compare the legal status of Maori to…

Sacha

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:48:33 +1200

obtuse

good summary of SHG's contributions elsewhere

Joe Wylie

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:12:56 +1200

Going by Whyte's Foucault haircut, and the fact that he hates being deconstructed, I'd pick him as a posturing postmodernist over any of his detractors.

Kumara Republic

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:07:55 +1200

And one more thing. This cartoon originally described the US education system, but it also perfectly sums up 'one law for all' dogma.

Keir Leslie

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 19:03:03 +1200

Similarly, both the Empire State Building and whales are very big, but they are not both buildings. I mean what on earth are you on about --- I think we can expect slightly better than first year tut meanderings here.

Kumara Republic

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 19:00:39 +1200

It is completely sensible and noncontroversial to at that Tiger Moths and 747s are both aeroplanes.

Maybe, but a 747 takes a lot more training to fly than a Tiger Moth.

I leave the rest to then-President Lyndon Johnson, when he signed the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s. Pity…

Rob Stowell

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 18:11:26 +1200

It is completely sensible and noncontroversial to at that Tiger Moths and 747s are both aeroplanes.
Jeez. If you were to attempt to describe a Tiger Moth by saying- it's like a 747- you'd be about as obtuse (and helpful) as Mr Whyte.

SHG

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 18:00:49 +1200

That's like saying "calling a Tiger Moth an aeroplane is ridiculous, because a Boeing 747 is really really big".

It is completely sensible and noncontroversial to at that Tiger Moths and 747s are both aeroplanes.

Rob Stowell

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 16:02:58 +1200

He compares their status as legally privileged groups within the legal frameworks of their respective countries and eras. That is a sense in which a comparison is completely sensible and uncontroversial.
I suggest you take a look at the legal status of the aristocracy in pre-revolutionary France (Hint- they were…

Joe Wylie

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 14:53:27 +1200

postmodern PC wankers

Oh put it away, you'll go blind.

SHG

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 14:29:22 +1200

He first compares the status of Māori in Aotearoa (New Zealand) to the aristocrats of the Ancien Régime

But that's not what he does. He compares their status as legally privileged groups within the legal frameworks of their respective countries and eras. That is a sense in which a comparison…

Chris Waugh

Sat, 02 Aug 2014 13:08:35 +1200

Well, it's not often I'll open an article by John Roughan, but the headline on this one was just too intriguing. And it's a pity nobody's allowed the space to fully develop an argument any more, because this one has the beginnings of what could be quite an interesting, even fruitful,…

Kumara Republic

Sat, 02 Aug 2014 00:01:57 +1200

Latest I've heard is that the Big-Earringed One is standing for Colin Craig in Epsom. The potential electoral pile-up will be fun to watch.

Kumara Republic

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 15:19:48 +1200

…and now Colin Craig’s starting to play the race card

What next, "the Muslims are coming, the Muslims are coming!"? So far, apart from Richard 'Wogistan' Prosser, few pollies have played that card like it's played out in Europe and America. Sadly it may not be far off in these…

Grant McDougall

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 14:31:19 +1200

...and now Colin Craig's starting to play the race card

Paul Campbell

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 12:44:23 +1200

well except that it would be would be a huge waste of money

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 12:04:33 +1200

I just looked at the Electoral Act. It says you have to be `a Maori' to register on the Maori roll, but nowhere does it define who is `a Maori'. There's no requirement for proof that you're Maori. There's no requirement for Maori descent, or whakapapa. So if feel yourself…

Sacha

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:58:39 +1200

Danyl contemplates why Act resorts to race-baiting.

Mikaere Curtis

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:15:09 +1200

I did not know that Whakapapa recital, was required for eligibility to be on the Maori electoral roll
AFAIK, it's not (it's been a long time since I applied for the Maori roll). What I meant was that Pakeha could switch the the Maori roll if they feel Maori (yet…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 10:56:30 +1200

He needs a hat with bells on it.
Shoes might be more appropriate.

Mikaere Curtis

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 09:30:05 +1200

So…without wading through all 79 responses, I have a legal question. Which laws, specifically, are in question?
One law he referenced is the Electoral Act 1993, specifically the provisions for Maori seats. One way to address Whyte's concerns would be to allow anyone who feels Maori (regardless of whakapapa)…

linger

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 09:29:51 +1200

Someone* once said * Anatole France, Le lys rouge [The Red Lily](1894)

WH

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 09:03:03 +1200

Someone once said that:

The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

It's pretty brazen of ACT to argue that the statistically unambiguous disparities in New Zealand's society are caused by…

Craig Young

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 08:59:53 +1200

Might I draw your attention to this fascinating article by Dr Whyte, within the centre-right Institute for Economic Affairs website: "Evidence based policies are damaging UK policy making" Institute of Economic Affairs: 21.09.2013: http://www.iea.org.uk/in-the-media/press-release/%E2%80%98evidence-based%E2%80%99-policies-are-damaging-uk-policymaking

David Hood

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 08:50:33 +1200

Jimmy D, on Morning Report Whyte claimed repeated that Maori had special representation in parliament due to the Maori roll. He was repeated challenged on this as an error in fact as non-Maori can, and have, stood on the Maori roll. He eventually reluctantly modified it to only Maori could…

Caleb D'Anvers

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 08:42:18 +1200

Philosophy can be a bloody affray too. I can’t agree with those who say Whyte should ‘go back to academia’. He doesn’t, prima facie, seem capable enough.

Yeah. And those representing Whyte as a former Philosophy Lecturer seem to be misreading the complexities of early career academia. From what I…

andin

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 08:34:29 +1200

Which laws, specifically, are in question?
Umm ... none "specifically" AFAICT. Although Whytey has a go at the RMA and a few legal bodies. He just seems to be whining out loud , and being a "big picture" sort of joker. He needs a hat with bells on it.

Rich,…

Jimmy D

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 07:50:23 +1200

So...without wading through all 79 responses, I have a legal question. Which laws, specifically, are in question? Not Mr Whyte, nor any of the news reports, actually provide this detail, and without being snarky, I'd actually like to know.

In a debate about racial prejudice in the law, it'd be…

Jim Cathcart

Fri, 01 Aug 2014 05:14:40 +1200

How about non-honky, non-Maori perspective? How does that fit in?

izogi

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 23:47:03 +1200

But the important part he fails to see is that we don’t live in an ideal world. We live in a world where the market isn’t always right and the privileged take advantage of the disadvantaged.

I’m not convinced that ACT and its supporters don’t see this. I think many…

linger

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:30:48 +1200

But he says he wants to be challenged, philosophically, and logically. *
So ... wilfully ignorant, then.

(* Albeit, only by his limited definitions of those terms; and he may not have any definition of morality sufficient to recognise, let alone respond to, challenges on that front.)

Sacha

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:08:10 +1200

philosophically challenged

and logically-challenged, and morally-challenged.
what a dick.

Ken Sparks

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 22:05:26 +1200

A real New Zealander looks and sounds like Anand Satyanand – well one of them does anyway...

Rich Lock

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:41:17 +1200

I’ve been posting this around all over the place lately, and can’t remember where it came to me from (was it here? If so, oops, sorry.) but it’s relevant and I really like it so I’m going to post it again.

I originally saw that on The Guardian, here,…

Rich Lock

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:37:06 +1200

I might just wait till the movie

We have Netflix, and it keeps popping up on there as a suggested popular choice for me. I've been half-tempted a couple of times just to see what an awful trainwreck* of a movie it is, but I'm not entirely sure there's enough…

andin

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 21:12:18 +1200

belief that Atlas Shrugged is not a work of fiction

He may have even been able to read it to the end! … god knows I couldn’t! others of Ayn’s tomes were more readable. I hear The Fountain Head is better literarily. I might just wait till the movie, or…

kw

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:38:25 +1200

Yup, last time all the Nats got out of Act was half a seat and a policy laundering mechanism. And this time, if Epsom voters do as requested, they might still get nothing more than David Seymour. Arguably, if they got Whyte, they'd be even worse off, because he does…

B Jones

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:35:32 +1200

I can't decide whether I'd rather they went the full contrails and Celts monty, thus alienating 99% of the electorate, or toned it down, stopped contributing to racial disharmony and got more influence as a result. It's easier to be academic about it when I'm not the one facing negative…

Euan Mason

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:14:56 +1200

Whyte needed to study some history and sociology along with philosophy.

However, I agree with Tussock that ACT’s role is to pretend to force the Nats into passing legislation that they really wanted to pass but didn’t dare propose themselves. We’ve see that ACT’s coalition “conditions” last election ensured an…

Russell Brown

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:09:36 +1200

but the liberals generally don’t seem to see themselves as outright racists. The speech may well backfire on their polling and on the Team Key by association.

Agreed. The people devoutly defending Whyte in the internet public square at the moment aren’t mainstream centre-right. His own Epsom candidate has seemed…

Pete

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 20:05:28 +1200

I would turn that logic around a bit. Act have shown themselves to be so loopy and swivel-eyed for the last, well, decade that their leader has to work harder to convince the voting public of NZ that he can actually be rational rather than Randian
Pasport pilferers, perk buster…

B Jones

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:52:41 +1200

I think they're trying to be down with the kids. I actually read once on one of those sites a sort of strategy that involved attempting to recruit the grandkids (presumably the ones over 18). Because there's nothing that shapes the views of young people like their racist grandparents.

Robyn Gallagher

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:45:14 +1200

I've just discovered the existence of a newly registered party (as of 24 July) called 1Law4All. Le sigh. Needless to say, they are in agreement with Whyte.

If their Facebook page is anything to go by, it's very much a party for angry middle-aged people who have good lives but…

tussock

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:35:17 +1200

The point of the ACT branch of the National party is to give voice to the things the National party wants to do, but cannot risk saying for alienating the less rabid of their fan base. It's the same when they agree to implement "ACT" policies that happen to precisely…

william blake

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:16:45 +1200

Dog whistles are supposed to be silent not the two fingered screech.

william blake

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:13:09 +1200

It may be wishful thinking but I don't think this position will work for ACT they may be an insignificant and spent political force and they may be greedy, blue meanies, but the liberals generally don't seem to see themselves as outright racists. The speech may well backfire on their…

Stephen Judd

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:11:01 +1200

I am starting to think Devoy may have the capacity to do the job, and that is a pleasant surprise. My views on the irregularity of her appointment are unchanged.

Russell Brown

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:05:50 +1200

Incorrect. Maori already had property rights that had nothing to do with tauiwi law. Even if we take Whyte’s assertion that property rights were only extant on colonisation by Europeans, it is still wrong because aboriginal title existed regardless of Te Tiriti.

Damn right. I'm actually surprised that no one…

Russell Brown

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 19:04:37 +1200

What strikes me about his arguments in political philosophy is that they are largely context free ie. he sees only very minimal premises, and as a result of that a rather threadbare conclusion.

Yes. He's not alone in that — there are some very agitated libertarians on the local internet…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 18:13:43 +1200

I guess the thing that has pissed me off the most about this guy was his claim to represent "white atheists" on the radio the other day – as a white atheist I don't want some know nothing racist twat, whose political philosophy seems to be driven by a belief…

nzlemming

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 18:12:14 +1200

Forgive me if I’ve got it wrong, but aren’t the people of Epsom being mustered into voting for this wannabe seatwarmer? Whatever useful idiot status Whyte currently enjoys will surely have evaporated by xmas

I'm really hoping all the non-Nats vote for Goldsmith. That would screw up National's plan.

Rebecca Williams

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:28:31 +1200

Tantrums and meltdowns aside, I think that unfortunately Mr Whyte's ignorant point of view about so-called Maori privilege is shared by many Pakeha New Zealanders, and plenty of them may live in Epsom.

So yes, with that alongside Key's endorsement, I think Epsom will "suck it up" and vote Act,…

Joe Wylie

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:27:35 +1200

Will the people of Epsom suck it up and vote for him, regardless?
Forgive me if I've got it wrong, but aren't the people of Epsom being mustered into voting for this wannabe seatwarmer? Whatever useful idiot status Whyte currently enjoys will surely have evaporated by xmas.

Josh Petyt

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:26:57 +1200

As an ‘intellectual’ you’d think Whyte was familiar with what ‘privilege’ means in a social science context. I’d wager when he saw (or heard) the word ‘privilege’ in the criticism he provoked he was thinking only of the generic ‘material privilege’ that he spoke of when often that was probably…

Mikaere Curtis

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:07:39 +1200

The Treaty of Waitangi gave Maori property rights over the land they occupied.
Incorrect. Maori already had property rights that had nothing to do with tauiwi law. Even if we take Whyte's assertion that property rights were only extant on colonisation by Europeans, it is still wrong because aboriginal title…

Deborah

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 17:00:10 +1200

"It's utterly bizarre – either she hasn't read it or she can't think straight. It's very very strange. I'm dumbfounded. Sometimes there's just nothing you can say."

Horse's mouth, etc.

source

Ianmac

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:59:37 +1200

As for the lower grades allocated to these quota seats; this is simply a recognition that most Māori come from lower socio-economic areas and we know, from the statistics, that grades on average are lower across the board in lower socio-economic areas.
This is to improve the entry into those…

Richard Aston

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 16:22:56 +1200

Will the people of Epsom suck it up and vote for him, regardless?

B Jones

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 15:24:33 +1200

It's certainly courageous to call out the leader of a political party two months out from an election.

But she's not the first in her role to do what she's done, and be attacked for it.

Andrew Geddis

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 15:23:33 +1200

Wondering if anyone has changed their views at all.

I think it's fair to say that the darker fears – she was being parachuted in to destroy the office from the inside – have been proven wrong.

llew40

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 14:43:31 +1200

Whyte aside, I'm also interested in the PA community view on the way in which Susan Devoy is handling her new role.

I seem to recall quite a few vociferous opinions being espoused about her qualifications or lack thereof, before she had even started. Wondering if anyone has changed their…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 14:37:16 +1200

And now Mr Whyte is demanding that Susan Devoy resign for daring to disagree with him.

I think we can now actually call this a public meltdown.

Given that Dame Susan was probably appointed for her non-PC sensibilities, the fact that she's calling bollocks on Whyte speaks volumes.

Russell Brown

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 14:28:41 +1200

And now Mr Whyte is demanding that Susan Devoy resign for daring to disagree with him.

I think we can now actually call this a public meltdown.

Russell Brown

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 14:25:52 +1200

Mr Whyte also fails to understand the meaning of privilege in his own speech. He says that Maori have legal privilege but this is privilege that has been given by those in power. Any other examples of privilege he talks about seem to be privilege taken by those in power.…

ObjectiveReality

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 14:08:06 +1200

How about because civilised, careful, fact-based debate might work a little better without the side-order of name-calling?
To be honest, while I think that'd be true in an ideal world, I don't think Jamie Whyte's up to that. Many of the posts cited here (particularly Matthew Dentith's) are actually pretty…

81stcolumn

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:59:15 +1200

I don't doubt that crimes against logic will discuss petitio principii begging the question.

In so far as Whyte assumes material privilege without properly defining or verifying it then he is guilty of the above crime. My privileged white middle class educators taught me to ignore such arguments, specifically because…

Tim Michie

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:24:22 +1200

I ink Whyte got exactly what he sought: People talking about ACT and him. Many may notice the talk without reading or investigating his argument and assume the content to be their own biases. Suits him fine, although intellectually dishonest.

Stephen Hill

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:24:00 +1200

Hmmm – sounds like Mr Whyte could do with reading this book: Crimes Against Logic

... oh, wait a minute ...

Leopold

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:08:25 +1200

That nice Mr Key has a good genuine Kiwi accent...

Danyl Mclauchlan

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:07:52 +1200

It’s a curious that ACT feel the need to say anything at all to the electorate when the party will be gifted Epsom at the very least

They're on 0.6% in the polls and Whyte needs about 1.2% to get into Parliament.

James W

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 13:03:36 +1200

Maybe we should use Paul Henry's definition of what a New Zealander looks like.

Kumara Republic

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:55:32 +1200

And Whyte had the nerve to describe 'overtaxed Epsom voters' as a 'minority'. He's right, if he really means 'model minority' or 'market-dominant minority'.

Geoff Lealand

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:43:16 +1200

Whyte/white represents the very essence of libertarianism; all for free and open debate, just as long as no one contradicts or argues against his rather perverse view of the world,

william blake

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:37:32 +1200

Quasi legal favouritism, like being gifted your place in parliament by the incumbents, kind of proves Dr Whytes (lack of) abilities.

bob daktari

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:36:24 +1200

It’s a curious that ACT feel the need to say anything at all

I'd suggest that with each utterance of stupid Act make will take attention away from the conservatives (their intellectual peers on the right) – this works for Act, their coalition partner and gifter of seats

or perhaps…

David MacGregor

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:31:51 +1200

It's a curious that ACT feel the need to say anything at all to the electorate when the party will be gifted Epsom at the very least – like some idiot bastard child of le Comte de Cupidité, l'Avarice et la Bigoterie having an estate and title conferred in said…

Deborah

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:30:15 +1200

I've studied philosophy a bit too. Quite a lot, in fact. When it comes to political philosophy in particular, I'd lay good odds that I've studied rather more that Dr Whyte has. (If that link doesn't work, FTR it takes you to my doctoral thesis in ... political philosophy.)

What strikes…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:25:33 +1200

a member of an exploitative settler class

Same accent as Tony Benn. Or Engels. It's what you say, not how you say it.

TracyMac

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:23:52 +1200

Really? So because I lived in England for several years, and I've lived in Australia for several more, and no longer have a true-blue kiwi accent (it even sounds "posher" than most in NZ), I no longer meet some "vision" of a "non-settler class" NZer (however that might be distinguishable…

Dave Dobbyn

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:12:54 +1200

Pre-election, deluded politicians get to rant at us and redefine stupidity in remarkable ways. It's no wonder Jesus wept. It's no surprise that votes are waning when ignorance gets in the way of reality. Frightening that someone will vote for a complete dork.

B Jones

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 12:09:18 +1200

Whyte carefully exempts the work of the Waitangi Tribunal from his criticism

Very carefully indeed:

Whyte:
The reparations made to iwi by the Waitangi Tribunal are NOT an example of this. The Treaty of Waitangi gave Maori property rights over the land they occupied. Many violations of these rights followed.…

Tom Semmens

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:59:25 +1200

However that is a terrible statement. What the hell does a “New Zealander” look and sound like to you because to me it sounds and looks like anybody from New Zealand. Dismissing someone over their looks and sounds is a bigger mugs game than trying to defend the indefensible.

George…

Michael Meyers

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:49:05 +1200

I think Jamie Whyte is right to a degree in that in a ideal world these policies shouldn't exist. But the important part he fails to see is that we don't live in an ideal world.

We live in a world where the market isn't always right and the privileged…

Josh Petyt

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:44:38 +1200

Agreed.
And thanks Russell for a great post.

TracyMac

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:36:40 +1200

Yup, indirectly characterizing the arguments as ad hominem really only works when none of the substance of the argument was addressed (obviously it was), and that there was an irrelevant description of someone's personal characteristics (such as their accent – I mean, really? I don't sound like a rool kiwi…

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:32:49 +1200

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw_mRaIHb-M

MxDEJ

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:29:17 +1200

What the hell does a “New Zealander” look and sound like to you because to me it sounds and looks like anybody from New Zealand. Dismissing someone over their looks and sounds is a bigger mugs game than trying to defend the indefensible.

Bingo.

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:27:12 +1200

Thanks,…

Craig Ranapia

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:25:54 +1200

but surely the better way to oppose him is to accept his challenge to be civilised, rather than being a dick about it?

No — I take serious people making serious (and preferably fact-based) arguments seriously, even if I vehemently disagree with their conclusions. Because I don't have any monopoly…

bob daktari

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:21:42 +1200

Whyte is an embarrassment.

plus his parties relationship with National and thus gift of a seat is a huge insult to all New Zealanders

If anything Whyte and his outlandish notions of rational argument deserve to be mocked more, the guys an idiot

Rob Stowell

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:20:00 +1200

he acts as a politician then demands to be treated as a philosopher.
Philosophy can be a bloody affray too. I can't agree with those who say Whyte should 'go back to academia'. He doesn't, prima facie, seem capable enough.

Sam Bradford

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:19:40 +1200

I have postgrad philosophy degree too, and his arguments are so obviously shit that it's actually embarrassing. I doubt Russell had to put a lot of effort into dismantling them here. He deserves ridicule, and the fact that he taught philosophy at a prestigious university only reinforces my growing prejudice…

Keir Leslie

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:17:15 +1200

Whyte is engaged in a disingenuous exercise, where he acts as a politician then demands to be treated as a philosopher. Politics is a contact sport, and he's aggressively engaging in a very disgusting and immoral political exercise, of course he's going to get aggressive responses.

Michael J. Parry

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:15:59 +1200

because Whyte doesn’t deserve the privilege of being taken seriously. The man is a privileged prat right from his hoity toity accent down to his white cracker Matha’s Vinyard preppy dress style.

Maybe if he actually sounded a bit more like a New Zealander and didn’t look like he had…

George Darroch

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:10:08 +1200

How about because civilised, careful, fact-based debate might work a little better without the side-order of name-calling?

As someone with an actual philosophy degree, I'm ashamed that Whyte is so tenuous in his arguments. If you are going to state a position, it is incumbent on you to bring facts…

Rob Stowell

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:07:52 +1200

How about because civilised, careful, fact-based debate might work a little better without the side-order of name-calling?
Fair enough. The problem is, when Mr Whyte gets on the end of careful and reasonable objections to his assertions (I hesitate to call them arguments), he either ignores them or tells his…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 11:02:08 +1200

Dr Whyte's problem is that when he loses the argument, he resorts to the hoary old persecution complex and shifting the goalposts. If he wants a reasoned debate, he seriously needs to practise what he preaches.

Richard Aston

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:59:57 +1200

He's playing the same race card that Don Brash played and he is playing it to the same audience, that percentage of New Zealanders who still think Maori are skiving con artists ripping off Pakeha. Packaged up with that "we are all one people" nativity.

To call it a civilized…

Lisa Black

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:58:30 +1200

But of course. Dear oh dear.

Tom Semmens

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:57:05 +1200

How about because civilised, careful, fact-based debate might work a little better without the side-order of name-calling?

because Whyte doesn't deserve the privilege of being taken seriously. The man is a privileged prat right from his hoity toity accent down to his white cracker Matha's Vinyard preppy dress style.

Maybe…

John Small

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:56:53 +1200

Its rare we see such selfish & petulant attitudes dressed up as coherent argument. The "flaws" he demanded people identify have been clearly identified. Where is his coherent response? Absent: buried so deeply by his own self-image that he can't think straight.

Gareth

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:50:47 +1200

Mr Whyte is also a climate change denier. And a piss-poor one, at that.

MxDEJ

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:50:47 +1200

You will of course note that I and others have also criticised his argument.

Absolutely. That bit was good to read.

I'm characterising Whyte's actual behaviour and I don't see why he gets a free pass from being mocked for that.

How about because civilised, careful, fact-based debate might work…

Lisa Black

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:46:49 +1200

That hasn't worked well with climate change deniers, and for similar reasons. They, like Mr Whyte, are not basing their arguments in reality. Where is the room for civilised discussion in that?

The civilised discussion has already been had. It appears Mr Whyte has not wanted to be a part…

Russell Brown

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:44:34 +1200

but surely the better way to oppose him is to accept his challenge to be civilised, rather than being a dick about it?

I’m characterising Whyte’s actual behaviour and I don’t see why he gets a free pass from being mocked for that. He is the leader of a political…

MxDEJ

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:42:29 +1200

Also, philosophers _hate_ it when you're calmer and more right* about things than they are.

* No pun intended

MxDEJ

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:41:35 +1200

So, Whyte requests a civilised discussion about racial law and is instead called a "crybaby", "manchild", and accused of throwing a tantrum. Sure, the way he's gone about it is hamfisted and naive, but surely the better way to oppose him is to accept his challenge to be civilised, rather…

Public Address

Thu, 31 Jul 2014 10:41:35 +1200

Discussion from blog post.