And?

and everyone got the taste for pre 1920's literature because it was free and a new book was never bought or read again?

I don't know, but you'll never get to 60 pages with that attitude :)

The books, all published before 1923 and now in the public domain, were digitized by Google as part of its Google Book Search program. Sony will offer them alongside the 100,000 or so books still…

You didn't notice how you claimed it wasn't from a free market ideological position, but then the rest of the paragraph was straight out of free market 101?

Actually, it was based on 2 decades in public service administering subsidies, but please don't let the facts get in your way.

…

Our US-based server died. Totally smoove work by Karl from CactusLab to have things back up so quickly on a new box.

Now all you have to worry about is the Agent Smith virus running throughout PAS and gradually turning every thread into the copyright thread.

All your comments are…

Apparently Amazon is sending DCMA take-down notices to sites hosting the tool kindlepid.py (which enables Kindle owners to buy ebooks from retailers other than Amazon.)

Meh. While I defended the T2S feature of the Kindle in earlier discussion, you'd never catch me buying one precisely because of this sort of…

According to the WSJ, Key has a cunning plan to steer us through the impending economic tsunami. Instead…

the party that calls for us to get over our "hangups"

I suspect Garrett is part of the price they paid for power.

It's certainly forced me to reconsider my criticism of the law.

Heh. However, s92A is so broadly flawed that ACT, the Greens and Peter Dunne have all found reasons to oppose it. Labour is backpedalling (with outbursts of Tizardry), and I doubt the quality of advice the Nats are getting…

"It should be repealed . . . it is fundamentally flawed because it breaches the principles of natural justice. It makes people guilty without trial and that is wrong."

Amazon's Kindle iPhone app is now available for free download.
...
Amazon's long-term goal isn't just to sell Kindle devices, but to become the dominant e-book platform the way it's become the dominant online bookstore.

You've obviously decided I'm some sort of free marketer and I want all copyright abolished so I don't have to pay for anything, and nothing I say is going to make a dent in that opinion.

you could spend more of your energy explaining how this is not you, and…

I rather think paper-books are going to be around for a long time (in human terms) yet...

Undoubtedly, as are vinyl records. I took your complaint to be more about the new technologies not delivering you a revenue stream, and that's not going to change.

You haven't yet enlightened me…

The 'new technologies' are probably going to be superceded quite soon – especially if Kindle2/Amazon keep behaving the way they are (visited BoingBoing lately?) And we *still* need to work out some kind of workable copyright…

Feel insulted if you must, Mark, but I think posters here have a right to analyse and characterise your approach in the exact same way you do others' (mine was "sad" no longer than two pages ago). I've officially got bored with…

What laws set out to achieve and how things work in real life are never really synonymous. People find places, nooks and crannies, within the system where they can be comfortable to do their work. Artists of all kinds have been especially adaptable in doing this.

The thing is, Giovanni,…

Please point me at any part of the Copyright Act 1994 that deals with the cultural issues you're raisin.

Perhaps this is why we're talking past each other. I'm talking about copyright as it is, as an economic mechanism, why it's broken, what the future holds for it as a…

Perhaps this is why we're talking past each other. I'm talking about copyright as it is, as an economic mechanism, why it's broken, what the future holds for it as a source of revenue etc.

You appear to be talking about the social issue of artists being cared for and…

But if you believe that it is bad, then "it's happening lots" doesn't seem to me to be the best argument for changing the law.

It was why they got rid of prohibition, because it didn't work.

You didn't notice how you claimed it wasn't from a free market ideological position, but then the rest of the paragraph was straight out of free market 101?

Actually, it was based on 2 decades in public service administering subsidies, but please don't let the facts get in your way.

copyright does seem to be primarily about sociotechnical and economic forces than cultural ones.

Copyright, under anglo-saxon derived common law is purely an economic mechanism, not a cultural mechanism.

Convenient distinction, but so long as you want to think this thing whole, as it where, you need to account for…

Or then again, maybe it was the art of copying other humans, which made the development of tools…

In the instance of agriculture, yes. From no agricultural system, to having one is probably the greatest leap humankind has made technologically.

Certainly, not least in that it freed up time for people to specialise in things other than getting food. Which, of course, led to more new technologies.

I believe that, not from some free-market ideological position (which I definitely don't have) but because I believe the quality of work would diminish under a subsidy. Subsidies are generally, given out at a blanket rate, to enable otherwise uneconomic activities to exist.

You didn't notice how you claimed it…

I'm going to run with the line that you're not being sarcastic.

Definitely not. It's a perspective I haven't considered before. It needs some thought before taking a position.

Accounting for cultural value is part of what's currently broken with copyright – let's fix it.

I was talking about the economic point, not the cultural meaning.

Convenient distinction, but so long as you want to think this thing whole, as it where, you need to account for cultural meaning and value.

Seriously? How so?

I'm not even going there.

You talk as if the point of a book was in the physical carrier, and not in the words.

I was talking about the economic point, not the cultural meaning. As you've no doubt gathered I'm usually more interested in the latter, but copyright does seem to be primarily about…

The current winners here are surely copyright owners, not creators or society.

Seriously? How so?

the question seems to be how do we look after the poor victimised society. Society – and its habitual copyright infringers – are actually fine. You're on the side of the winners.

The current winners here are surely copyright owners, not creators or society.

The big deal is that there's…

If copyright law assumed we all hand-wrote manuscripts, then introducing the printing press would have had a similarly disruptive effect. And it did.

You talk as if the point of a book was in the physical carrier, and not in the words. There's a bit of truth in the first…

If copyright law assumed we all hand-wrote manuscripts, then introducing the printing press would have had a similarly disruptive effect. And it did.

For more on the implications…

You seem to have bought into the idea that copyright is property. If that's the case, that's sad, as it limits the way you can think.

Oh boy, how patronising can you get, Mark? I am a socialist, so for me the idea of property is pretty dodgy overall. But…

I don't buy this argument (which I'll call the "it's happening too much to do anything about it" argument).
I also don't buy it for decriminalisation/legalisation of drugs.

having some drugs legally available and others prohibited for quite arbitrary reasons just encourages people to say "f**k the law, this is…

Advancements in boat technology enabled Columbus to get to the new world. And technology and disease enabled those that followed him to conquer it.

But were they quantum leap advancements? Or was it actually something pretty tiny, some minor enhancement in the art of sailing? Or indeed, was it simply…

there's absolutely nothing stopping them

Technologically, you're correct.

And NEVER suggest that what you pay a lawyer has ANYTHING to do with the amount of work or training involved.

you may object to it but it's one of the justifications that go toward their price as with doctors etc.
you're welcome to use the word please too, I…

then you need to understand why your potential customers do what they do,

that's simple, cos there's absolutely nothing stopping them.
the chances of getting caught and stopped are close to zero at present. you're fighting to keep it that way. good job :)

But the copyright system is only something that society extends out of the goodness of its heart.

or it could be something it installs in its society because it sees it as being inherently fair and along the lines of the sort of fairness it wants to promote in its…

but there are also plenty who do, especially in the music business.

you're thinking of melbourne.
almost no one goes to sydney, only those who imagine that because its australia's biggest city its a good place to base a band.
actually if you're serious and have half a clue you…

Wow! What a thought!

I neither advocate nor deny it, I'd like to point out, but I am going to consider its implications. Just not right now.

I'm going to run with the line that you're not being sarcastic.

When everybody copies everyday, it's a cultural change

It's Lessig's key point again isn't it? Every single thing we do online involves copying. Every pageview is a copy – which leaves behind an undiminished potential to serve other perfect copies.

Our offline world is just not like that. This is…

"The best" – in that context, the most successful

Revision: the most commercially successful

"Slight" enhancement?!? ;-)
I apologise if the word offended. I claim passion for the cause in my defense. "Static" would probably be a better word to use, as in "not growing". And I agree, it is a silly word.

Thanks.

'rancid' .waaay back on the copyright thread which is how you described my work would go if it wasnt immediately available for instant replication in any form on the web (slight enhancement here, but I've thought of your word 'rancid' as the ultimate…

I find hipocrisy in the idea an artist's reward should be conceptualised as something that society extends out of the goodness of its heart, as opposed to being inscribed in the same mercantile logic that governs the exchange of all other goods that people work to produce

But the copyright…

Mark H – care to clarify 'the best'?

Context?

There are rather a lot of ANZ artists – who did/ have spent limited time/s overseas but *dont *end up* in Sydney or London or where-ever – and never want to. Home is here, and here is where our kind of…

In what way? The only suggestion you've given, if I'm not mistaken, is to reduce the length of the copyright term. If that is your way of addressing the fact that people can just infringe copyright laws at will these days, it seems rather peculiar.

The law as written (in…

Technology now allows anyone to infringe, where once you needed a solid investment in plant. The game has changed and laws must change to reflect that.

In what way? The only suggestion you've given, if I'm not mistaken, is to reduce the length of the copyright term. If that is…

It's funny how for some things you're willing to let the chips of technological progress fall where they may, and not conceive of any redress or counterbalance because it would be futile if not counterproductive, and for other things you'd like to wind the clock back fifty years.

I said…

But that diagram is awfully familiar. ;-)

If the authors of the digital strategy hadn't read Levy, I think we could confidently ask for our money back.

You read me as you want to, Giovanni.

I most certainly do, and I'm not the only one who's unsatisfied with your approach. You have every right to stick to your guns, naturally, but not to claim that yours is a fair and balanced approach, while everybody else is an…

Did I say it was?

Well, that's how I read

Technically, artists who have their stuff pirated are victims of, shall we say, non-legality. Do you say that all crime victims should just "adapt or die" (rather than seek redress via the legal system?)

I neither advocate nor deny it, I'd like to point out, but I am going to consider its implications. Just not right now.

Here walks a man who hasn't read Foucault's Discipline and Punish. Remedy that stat. I was thinking earlier today that you'd probably enjoy Levy's Collective Intelligence as…

A particularly illuminating term from Marxist discourse comes to my mind – objective alienation. Enforcing copyright on yourself in the privacy of your own home is exactly that, the internalization of society's rules, whether or not society could even find out.

Hang on a minute: I'm as much of a…

Copyright is a capitalist institution. Socialists are more likely to think that all ideas belong to the state, or humanity (which they feel the socialist state is the perfect representative of).

Wow! What a thought!

I neither advocate nor deny it, I'd like to point out, but I am going…

Technically, artists who have their stuff pirated are victims of, shall we say, non-legality.

No, say "illegal" – that's what it is.

I'll say what I like, thanks.

While copyright infringement is illegal, it is not a crime, mmkay?

Did I say it was? Sheesh . Too busy now to…

I mean what constitutes a 'quantum…

That's a cop out.

No, it's a description, and some advice. You can get all bent out of shape about it, or you can take it in your stride and change your practice to minimise it.

Technically, artists who have their stuff pirated are victims of, shall we say, non-legality.

…

I don't recall negotiating alterations to my name, even on a non-commercial basis. :-)

Apple-ogies, the elves borrowed my 'o' for a minute,

I dispute that. Where have I advocated it?

What I'm saying is that "it's going to happen – deal with it".

And you were going so well!... :-)

I think the laissez-faire attitude, or the abdication of our responsability to look after content creators if you will, is in fact…

What I'm saying is that "it's going to happen – deal with it".

That's a cop out. Technically, artists who have their stuff pirated are victims of, shall we say, non-legality. Do you say that all crime victims should just "adapt or die" (rather than seek redress via the legal…

I'm thinking that the nomads in the world might disagree with that, and those races that moved across various parts of the world from prehistory on. They took fire with them, you know, and stories.

And the culture of non-agricultural societies remained essentially unchanged, for up to thousands of years,…

Whatever. Agree to disagree.

what you're advocating is not paying for art, but taking it anyway.

I dispute that. Where have I advocated it?

What I'm saying is that "it's going to happen – deal with it".

Surely, if you decide to accept a product, then you are obligated to pay for it

That's…

What I was looking at was cultural change. Fire at night meant leisure time for stories to be told. Writing meant that the stories became fixed, instead of being retold with cumulative subtle changes.

Actually writing didn't help too much there. Too unreliable in the copying, there's lots of evidence…

Yeah, agriculture had even more of an impact there. Allowed people to settle – nuff said.

I'm thinking that the nomads in the world might disagree with that, and those races that moved across various parts of the world from prehistory on. They took fire with them, you know, and…

I have no idea what you mean by that and struggle to see how you got it out of anything I said.

Well, bear with me.

You say that no one owes artists a living. Ie, no one is obligated to buy art.

Whilst that is true, what you're advocating…

I'm still having something of a problem with your "no one owes 'em a living" take on things. There's a hell of difference between "not giving someone a job" and "giving them a job but not paying them", isn't there?

Clear as mud ;-)

When I say, "no one owes…

FWIW, I'm generally supportive of your position, I just…

What I was looking at was cultural change. Fire at night meant leisure time for stories to be told. Writing meant that the stories became fixed, instead of being retold with cumulative subtle changes.

Yeah, agriculture had even more of an impact there. Allowed people to settle – nuff said.

sometimes the social darwinist comes out.

I call it pragmatic realism. ;-)

If the object was the only thing on sale (as you said), the fact that they were identical would mean that they should fetch the same price.

The object is the only thing on sale. What you may pay for it is influenced by a number of factors. Once purchased…

Agriculture. Massively important. Followed up by domestication of animals.

What I was looking at was cultural change. Fire at night meant leisure time for stories to be told. Writing meant that the stories became fixed, instead of being retold with cumulative subtle changes.

Agriculture and domestication were important to progress,…

The items are not, however, identical if they were not made by the same person.

Yes they are. If I take a collection of objects (take for example, lego art which I saw reported on 3 News the other night), and join them together, they're exactly the same as the…

it was an interesting comment re gauging how 'piraters' 'feel' about things.

IF "piracy" is such a major issue that it's killing the industry, then you need to understand why your potential customers do what they do, and how you can change the situation so everyone wins. Just smacking them…

Piracy is a funny one, though, insofar as the people who engage in it don't mind using it.

I think it's a reflection of the charged wording the maximalists use. Kind of like blacks reclaiming "nigga" of geeks standing proud with the term.

Re paintings – you pay what the market will bear. Whether the artist knocks off a work in 20 minutes or 20 days, the charge would be they wanted it to be. You don't buy the process, you buy the results of…

if only that were the case all items would be so much cheaper.
development of any product is built into the price. hence paintings don't sell for the cost of paint and man hours, and computers don't sell for the price of the raw materials, and you pay a lawyer…

I wonder how much of an impact it would make if the BBC allowed it's factual content to be freely available to all. I sSuspect allowing those ideas to float freely to would make a bigger impact to global democracy than flushing money in unwanted foreign conflicts.

Ironically, that was…

There are huge swathes of BBC factual programming that local broadcasters either have shoved at them in unattractive packages or can't buy at all.

I wonder how much of an impact it would make if the BBC allowed it's factual content to be freely available to all. I sSuspect allowing…

Can't speak for Giovanni, but I'd probably take it. I feel pretty squirmy at times, but ethically I'm no Mark Harris on this issue: have done, will do, probably until the law or me ISP stops me.

Me too, but not without ethical boundary. I hate the idea of downloading…

phew man, that was a mammoth effort.

I thought it was pretty solid, myself. Thank you Mark.

But their rhetoric is pervading all debate – "stealing", "pirates", and such.

Piracy is a funny one, though, insofar as the people who engage in it don't mind using it. I'm looking at…

but you don't purchase the process,

if only that were the case all items would be so much cheaper.
development of any product is built into the price. hence paintings don't sell for the cost of paint and man hours, and computers don't sell for the price of the raw…

Interesting ethical question, Mark: you insist that copyright infringement is in a different ethical catagory to theft, yeah? Yet personally you won't have a bar of it.

Not quite. My point is that copyright infringement is in a different legal category to theft and, because copyright is a legal construct…

Ben, I think Mark was talking about the impact of digital connectedness rather than copyright – and I tend to agree with him that represents a quantum leap rather than just more of the same.

Well since Mark says so, I'll let that slide. But I'm still not sure that…

A compulsory levy or tax is like the dole

this

The fans want to reward you, because they like what you do and want you to keep doing it. The RtB doesn't have to be physical – it can be a heartfelt plea that makes your fans want…

Copyright infringement is not theft or stealing.

Theft or stealing means unlawfully taking something away from someone else.

If I steal a CD, I deprive the shop owner of something they own.

If I download a track (which I don't),…

I find the "CwF" + "RtB" formula (connect with fans/reason to buy) very unconvincing. It disconnects the value of the product (lets say music) with what is actually being sold (some variant of tee-shirts!?) It's pushing the (old way of thinking, Mark?) notion that you CAN compete with free.

I…

Ben, I think Mark was talking about the impact of digital connectedness rather than copyright – and I tend to agree with him that represents a quantum leap rather than just more of the same.

What he said

It's an interesting point – has the relationship between consumer and performer changed so there are less "fans" or is it being expressed differently?

The two comparable tipping points are fire, and writing.

Actually, the scale seems to me more on the order of what happened when we moved to modern ideas of intellectual property. Prior to that, it was open season. It was a big step but I'm not sure it's on the…

Rob, that's the problem. Everyone will agree that theft is wrong.

Not everyone. But certainly most people will agree that it is illegal.

Do you take it?

Can't speak for Giovanni, but I'd probably take it. I feel pretty squirmy at times, but ethically I'm no Mark Harris on this issue: have done, will do, probably until the law or me ISP stops me.
I can rationalise it til the cows come home,…

Is it stealing if I fast-forward through the ads on the MySky?

Absolutely. If you don't watch the ads, how are you going to know what to desire?

Is it stealing if I fast-forward through the ads on the MySky?

Creative Commons is a great start, creating a framework for people to opt out of old copyright. Now there's the small matter of how to look after everyone else (really, Giovanni? Why don't you tell us more?)

Well, you do already have your guest-poster permit ...

I think one of…

Kinda, but not really. If at any time up till last November I had copied songs from a CD I'd bought to my iPod, I too would have been committing "theft" . I didn't have the right to copy it.

And if we fixed the stupid law to allow for…

Creative Commons is a great start, creating a framework for people to opt out of old copyright. Now there's the small matter of how to look after everyone else (really, Giovanni? Why don't you tell us more?)

You seem to be saying that CC is different from copyright. It's not…

Actually, you're the one who keeps applying the old economy, and the old law, by seeing value of creative works in the medium that carries them and the balance sheet of, say, a record store that has bought somebody's music in CD form.

I call "misrepresentation".
Have you ever built…

The conversation gets heated because of the overloading of certain terms, which are not neutral.

They're not neutral, but they're just words, so we ought to be able to handle them, no?

I've said several times on these copyright threads that I'm personally more interested in hearing about solutions now…

That's the nub of it really – the mismatch…

It's called "stealing" because conversations like this are not deviod of political power – and those are the terms being pushed by resourceful copyright owners.

There's some truth in that- it's a war of words.
But I think you disrespect common talk if you attribute it all to propaganda. And…

The analogy is pretty simple: I steal a CD ni a shop, I'm a thief. I download the same tracks and burn them in the exact same order on a CD, and it's not theft. Surely you see the disconnect?

Kinda, but not really. If at any time up till…

Mark, I suspect Giovanni was making a point about language, not the law. The law only defines langauge in a legal context: outside that, words are defined by common usage.

No, I took his point to be about ethics, rather than language. Gio?

The battle is far from over, but…

Actually, you're the one who keeps applying the old economy, and the old…

If at any time up till last November I had copied songs from a CD I'd bought to my iPod, I too would have been committing "theft" . I didn't have the right to copy it.

Exactly. Legally it was "copyright infringement". But pretty-much noone would call it theft, 'cos…

The analogy is pretty simple: I steal a CD ni a shop, I'm a thief. I download the same tracks and burn them in the exact same order on a CD, and it's not theft. Surely you see the disconnect?

Kinda, but not really. If at any time up till…

Which is clearly not the case. I can have two identical objects. I can point to one and say "famous artist XXX made this, I, who have very little art talent, made the other". People will pay…

But surely theft is not just that the law says theft is?

What else is it, then? Yes, theft is an offense against the law, simply because the law is what defines it. The law is a product of societal decision-making of what is acceptable behaviour. It knows only compliance…

You need to be clear as to what's on sale, and it's only the object.

Which is clearly not the case. I can have two identical objects. I can point to one and say "famous artist XXX made this, I, who have very little art talent, made…

Didn't Russell post last year that in fact each poster retains copyright of our own words, and Public Address owns all the stuff around it?

Don't know, don't care. I bequeath it all to Russell. Anything to avoid turning off Adblock and having Flash crash my workstation and kill my…

Look, a brand new object has little history. It will sell for whatever the market will offer. A 500 year old object has a history...

A better concept than history might be "context". Recent work like the Hirst skull is nonetheless embedded in a fine art tradition that brings huge…

Bemused you may remain, but that doesn't alter the law.

But surely theft is not just that the law says theft is? Aren't we allowed to broaden the defenition (or at least discuss broadening it) to account for technological change, and for ethical considerations that the law may not adequately…

And some of us are still a bit bemused that taking away somebody's livelyhood should not be regarded as theft. But do carry on.

Bemused you may remain, but that doesn't alter the law.

Russell actually owns the expression of it here

Didn't Russell post last year that in fact each poster retains copyright of our own words, and Public Address owns all the stuff around it?

Doesn't seem much point in me searching for the word "copyright" to find the reference. :)

It's against the law but it is not theft.

And some of us are still a bit bemused that taking away somebody's livelyhood should not be regarded as theft. But do carry on.

Mark, isn't the point with digital that you can't tell the difference – with audiovisual content, especially?

Yep. But back to the original point I made months ago, it's still NOT theft.

It's against the law but it is not theft.

That's not true, at least for art.

Why not? The rest of your post had little relevance to your opening line, so I'm still mystified.

It's possible to make an exact copy of a piece of art, using the same materials and techniques.

I think I said that, which is…

You need to be clear as to what's on sale, and it's only the object.

That's not true, at least for art.

It's possible to make an exact copy of a piece of art, using the same materials and techniques.

The artwork done by a famous artist will still fetch…

And it's not very close. A factory exists for one thing – mass production of the same item or items. An artist is at the other end of the spectrum – producing (in general) single, unique items.

I don't know if you got the analogy. The artist is the person…

You have not stolen the physical artefact that is the result of the artist's endeavour, but you have shown contempt for the artist and in doing so, devalued the artist's process, because you haven't had to go through that process to make the original.

1) it's still not theft.
2)…

Also mentioned is Google's threat to end access to premium youtube content for licensiing reasons.

Isn't it great that you don't even have to ask?

It was my way of asking, actually. But the material on this website is copyrigthed by Public Address, so ironically in theory it's not you I'd have to apply to for permission. (Drop me a line, though, if you like.)…

I'm going to have to use that.

Isn't it great that you don't even have to ask?

Having a memory is so 20th century.

I'm going to have to use that.

that he would likely never fill the 1Mb hard drive he'd just acquired.

I was in awe.

vacuous!

(I am struck with the same thought I had when reviewing Bruce Sterling's Webstock speech...Didn't anybody record it?)

When disks got over 1MB, I quit relying on mine altogether. Having a memory is so 20th century.

I remember well my friend Paul Jeffreys at Oceania Audio telling me circa 86 that he would likely never fill the 1Mb hard drive he'd just acquired.

I was in awe.

When disks got over 1MB, I quit relying on mine altogether. Having a memory is so 20th century.

I remember well my friend Paul Jeffreys at Oceania Audio telling me circa 86 that he would likely never fill the 1Mb hard drive he'd just acquired.

I was in awe.

When disks got over 1MB, I quit relying on mine altogether. Having a memory is so 20th century.

I remember well my friend Paul Jeffreys at Oceania Audio telling me circa 86 that he would likely never fill the 1Mb hard drive he'd just acquired.

I was in awe.

My memory fails me every day, ask my wife

When disks got over 1MB, I quit relying on mine altogether. Having a memory is so 20th century. Now I have data, and search heuristics.

That's a dubious argument Simon. There are many factors which have led to the change in price of products over years. The statement "CDs are cheaper than vinyl because they're currently cheaper than Vinyl was in the 1980s after inflation" is waiting to have all the holes picked apart

to…

The retail on a single LP in 1980 was $11.50 which jumped about 50c every six months. By 1985 it was $15.99 and it jumped a $1.50 in one bump early in 1986 which caused a huge fuss at the time.

Well, I'll defer to you on that one. I…

BTW, in 1986/7 LPs were (at the Music Studio, where I shopped at the time) $7.99 or $11.99 for doubles.

Then they would've been losing money on every copy sold I imagine. The wholesale price was higher than that (on which we were paid royalties).

The retail on a single…

Reading the second post of russells on that page I found this interesting quote from united future ......…

And why did we consumers put up with uniformly crappy CD cases whose hinges break with normal use?

I think because we were used to the fact that tape cases had done it for many years.

And why did…

and on that they are wrong Mark.

Not disputing the numbers, Simon, I was merely elucidating why people thought CD's cost "too much".

Too expensive to buy each week because they represented a higher percentage of disposable income than the previous vinyl alternatives. Customers saw/see the high price as "gouging" by the industry.

and on that they are wrong Mark. A physical CD sells for less than it's vinyl equivalent. When the LP…

"fair value" ? There is only market value

That's one of the biggest questions in economics. Some people believe in true underlying value (which might not be the same idea as 'fair' value), around which the market will fluctuate. Others discard that idea. I can see reasons for both points…

No, you get to stop them making copies of your product, but they can still make the same "kind"of goods – you can't copyright an idea, only the expression of an idea.

Yup, right, they can't make the exact same thing. Depending which part of IP you're talking about, there…

Nope, that's a great new angle – please keep going.

You can take it where you like – I haven't thought much further than that. Despite having constructed an analogy, I don't see it leading to any conclusions about whether these special monopolistic factories are actually bad for society, and…

Jon, I think you're confusing ebooks with audio books. Not the same thing.

yes, my mistake. T2S on the brain.

Creating some IP is most analogous to making a factory. You spend a certain amount of time or capital on it, then it can produce profit in perpetuity.

Except that a factory needs maintenance, capital investment etc. The law of diminishing returns will eventually obsolete it.

But it's a very…

Really, IP is the means of production, rather than the product.

Aha! and the Internet allows the struggling artist to control the means of production!!

The analogy falls because there is no physical product that is analogous to intellectual property. You've been resisting the comparison between breach of copyright and stealing for that very reason, no?

No, actually, I've been resisting it because stealing is about removal of property from the rightful owner such that…