And if so is there something really scary we don't want to know about his drive for criminal liability to be U/14yrs?

1. He is talking about violent youth offending – which is up per capita.

2. He's talking about extending criminal liability below 14 – and the stats don't tell you how many 10-13 yo's or 12-13 yo's were prosecuted because the answer is zero…

This article irritates the hell out of me because while it's full of statistics, the crucial information – the number of teenagers in population, and hence the per capita rate of offending – are omitted. A 39% increase sounds terrible, but since it's an increase in…

Teaching,…

Little doubt if you are trying to maintain an ideological position. But considerable doubt if you look at the stats. As Beckett makes clear, when deaths from undetermined causes are excluded, Sweden ranks 9th (not 12th as I wrote earlier) in the OECD.

And if you don't exclude "undetermined" causes,…

Remove the subjective element of maltreatment.
"It was an accident X fell down the stairs" might work in some quarters and so not be recorded as maltreatment.

I haven't looked at Beckett's book & am quite happy to rely on the data I have linked to (as imperfect as it…

That doesn't change the fact that in 2003 those countries didn't have a smacking ban, yet they had the lowest rates of child maltreatment deaths. How can that…

See his Table 1. The top four countries in terms of lowest rates of child maltreament deaths are Spain, Greece, Italy and Ireland. None have bans on smacking.

Greece has extended adult protection against assault to children, Spain has promised to do the same and Ireland is expected to follow.…

Yes, it is, if it were true. But the rate is actually 1.2 per 100,000, once undetermined causes are excluded (although this condition changes the figure very little). As stated above, our rate of child deaths is marginally inferior to Switzerland and Austria,…

Thanks for confirming what I suspected. You haven't actually read Chirs Beckett's paper, have you?

See his Table 1. The top four countries in terms of lowest rates of child maltreament deaths are Spain, Greece, Italy and Ireland. None have…

"It is better to sit down than to stand, it is better to lie down than to sit, but death is the best of all"

Kyle, I don't think so. May and possibly are hypotheticals. Relatively few is a fact. That is, compared with the number of parents who smack their kids, relatively few parents abuse or kill them. Unless, of course, you have evidence to the contrary.

'Relatively few' is also a hypothetical, relatively…

Iceland had 3 under 5yr deaths per 1000
Finland, Norway, Sweden had 4 & Denmark 5.

All pretty close and the best in the world.

All of which have banned smacking. You still there ron?

http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/worldmortality/WMR2005.pdf

Iceland had 3 under 5yr deaths per 1000
Finland, Norway, Sweden had 4 & Denmark 5.

All pretty close and the best in the world.
Laws generally reflect the society so even if they allow…

He finds that claim to be false. Despite that, the myth endures.

He also finds that several countries that do not have a ban on smacking/corporal punishment have the lowest recorded rates of child maltreatment,…

The link you supplied does not enable me to find the article you refer to.

However, apparently the article says "The main idea behind the law is not to find criminals but to protect children against maltreatment".

First, if it's against the law to smack or to use corporal…

Kyle, I don't think so. May and possibly are hypotheticals. Relatively few is a fact. That is, compared with the number of parents who smack their kids, relatively few parents abuse or kill them. Unless, of course, you have evidence to…

There is no evidence to suggest that banning corporal punishment/smacking will have any positive effect on reducing maltreament/deaths.

By that logic I'm surprised you support any criminal laws, Ron, seeing as even though we're been prosecuting people for murder for centuries and yet people stubbornly keep killing each other! Every…

Excuse me? I did no such thing; try keeping to the topic. Beckett makes it clear that a ban on smacking or corporal punishment might may us all feel better, but it won't have the desired effect.

Bollocks he does. He addresses a specific claim regarding a fall to near-zero…

What worries me most in Beckett’s paper is that, on the one hand, he tells us that he is not in favour of corporal punishment but, on the other hand, he puts much effort into arguing against a ban. His main objections against…

Beckett makes it clear that a ban on smacking or corporal punishment might may us all feel better, but it won't have the desired effect.

If you're going to wave around Beckett like it's gospel, then you should look at the rebuttals – there's a few out there.

Here's one…

So, you have no evidence to support this? Given the relatively few kids that are seriously hurt or killed at home, I suspect your theory will never fly.

eh? I was just suggesting a re-wording of your post so it wasn't completely bananas, son. I don't think it really qualifies…

So, you have no evidence to support this? Given the relatively few kids that are seriously hurt or killed at home, I suspect your theory will never fly.

That's the cunning thing about the words 'may' and 'possibly'. 'Relatively few kids' fits well with 'may' and 'possibly'.

You just provided…

Russell, you appear to be (deliberately?) missing the point. There is no evidence to suggest that banning corporal punishment/smacking will have any positive…

So, you have no evidence to support this? Given the relatively few kids that are seriously hurt or killed at home, I suspect your theory will never fly.

So smacking is analogous to cannabis. Smoking the latter eventually leads to hard drugs, the former to beatings and eventually manslaughter/murder. Hmmmm.

I think you should really re-word this to make it more sensible; my suggestions are in italics –

"So smacking is analogous to cannabis. Smoking the latter may…

So what's the rate of child assault in homes where children aren't hit at all, ron?

That's like asking what the rate of alcoholism is in homes where people don't drink.

Yes. Thanks for making my point.

I'm sure you've read Chris Beckett's paper on the Swedish myth that a…

That's like asking what the rate of alcoholism is in homes where people don't drink.

I'm sure you've read Chris Beckett's paper on the Swedish myth that a ban on corporal punishment has worked…

I see. So smacking is analogous to cannabis. Smoking the latter eventually leads to hard drugs, the former to beatings and eventually manslaughter/murder. Hmmmm.

Really? My 10 year old will be very happy to hear that!

Is anyone else a little uneasy that only women are victims of domestic violence under the hospital questions?

It could be more an issue of priorites and resource allocation but I suppose it would be logical to ask everyone these questions. It does seem quite odd that if you're over…

Stop and thing before you hit post next time.

well I did say that the FF opinion that there was a causal connection was spurious so I was thinging at the time.

but I think a strong correlation would still be sufficient argument against corporal punishment.

I agree, I wasn't…

Is anyone else a little uneasy that only women are victims of domestic violence under the hospital questions?

Don't know if I really want to turn this into a gender issue, Michael, but I've certainly seen way too much evidence that culturally and legally we're still struggling with the notion…

But a correlation it remains no matter how strong. There's a stronger correlation between the sex of those doing most of the teacher bashing and the sex of their father.

Well, fair do's, I can't prove anything, but I think a strong correlation would still be sufficient argument against corporal…

If that issue were addressed then perhaps some progress could be made with the smacking debate.

But a correlation it remains no matter how strong.

...and then writing:

. It's all very well do away with corporal punishment but if what we get is the current increase in violence

Stop and thing before you hit post next time. You can…

Both you and I are up ourselves, sneering, Wellingtonians.

Don't forget the chips on our shoulders.

Whatever happened to violence begets violence? I thought that was still self-evident. Line up all those kids that have hit their teachers, then go check what kind of extra-curricular bashing they get. I bet there's a pretty strong correlation.

But a correlation it remains no matter how strong. There's a…

Held up as attacking the Family but I wonder if the amassed articles might have an impact on a few?

Gore does have a great little community art scene, a pretty homogenious…

and avoids the perception of up-themselves Jaffas sneering at the provincial hicks?

Why hold themselves to a higher standard than PA's commentariat?

Well, I guess this is the criteria:

Census results have revealed that there are just three gay couples living together in the South…

I'd start with accuracy. Saying someone said something they didn't say, or is something that they are not, is unfair

Quite so. But summarising someone's case is often done by journalists, unless their job is to simply regurgitate press releases.

The arguement is therefore whether that summary was an accurate…

On a lighter note:
I don't ever ROFL, but I came pretty close to it with this statement in the weekend's Sunday Star-Times:

...
"I don't know why it is, but I definitely haven't noticed any gay couples coming in who are local. I think Mikey Havoc only said what…

Hayley Meekin, 24, manages Gore's pub and cafe, Howl At The Moon. She told the Sunday Star-Times the findings [Gore the least gay town in New Zealand]…

Where would you draw the fairness line?

I'd start with accuracy. Saying someone said something they didn't say, or is something that they are not, is unfair (even if the person said something, or is, monstrous).

And rightly so. Their views on smacking didn't have a whiff of scientific evidence behind them.

That really is a staggeringly ignorant statement.

Although no doubt these groups were afraid to bite the hand that feeds them. But to confuse smacking with child abuse really was beyond the pale. I…

This morning I also heard it was because of teh drugs and violent video games. OH COME ON PEOPLE! Whatever happened to violence begets violence?

Well said, Heather – I know one teacher who told me she came home from a parent-teacher conference concerning one of her 'problem kids', and…

Don – I still think that a little unfair to FF.

Graeme, if you want to stick up for a group that thinks rights for children are PC nonsense be my guest. Where would you draw the fairness line?

but above all reduce class sizes.

Amen to that.

Although no doubt these groups were afraid to bite the hand that feeds them.

Correct. Who is paying the Families First bills? And please, spare me the "concerned citizens" line.

1) Have you read David Copperfield? Just wondering. Cos you didn't really seem to get the point I was making.

2)

I note that the two children recently admitted to Starhip hospital, who were both allegedly abused, don't appear to have received their injuries from being…

I note that the two children recently admitted to Starhip hospital, who were both allegedly abused, don't appear to have received their injuries from being smacked.

True, but I'll bet the people who beat them started with smacking and escalated from there when they didn't get the result they thought…

Although no doubt these groups were afraid to bite the hand that feeds them.

You mean the donation-giving public? That's who 'feeds' SCF anyway (and not that well I may add).

But to confuse smacking with child abuse really was beyond the pale.

Really? From today's Melbourne Age "THE manslaughter…

Well, it's true they don't have the right to vote, or drink in pubs, or drink at home, or have sex, or go to war, or gamble, or drive a car, or smoke, or see r18 movies,…

And rightly so. Their views on smacking didn't have a whiff of scientific evidence behind them. Although no doubt these…

Since when have "childrens' rights" been "nonsense" anyway?

I think the technical term for children (and wives) in fundamentalist discourse is "chattels". And no right-thinking man would give to rights to a chattel would they?

Unless you're a goddamn, lily-livered, pot-smoking commie ...

I'd say, if anything, they're even closer to the american "Focus on Family" style lobby than Maxim.

I'd have thought that were obvious. Maxim are for the most part just conservative. I doubt Family…

The breakdown of the natural family and the consequential moral and political failure, not human “overpopulation,” account for poverty, starvation, and environmental decay.

They'll be all over this article in the latest Listener then.

Reduce testing and increase education; but above all reduce class sizes. Make sure that primary and junior classes are very small and that the teachers can teach.

As for corporal punishment.

Sorry but I can’t really separate the personal in this issue. Corporal punishment was never…

Since when have "childrens' rights" been "nonsense" anyway?

Haven't you read David Copperfield? Children aren't humans, and therefore have no rights.

And Graeme, in this case Family First may be less strident than the Herald (and what does that say about the Herald!), but at this point I think its…

Family First Comment: Schools and classrooms becoming more violent? But we thought that's why politicians banned corporal punishment – to stop that trend. Violence begets violence, and all that stuff – the very same arguments we heard for criminalising parents who smack!
Notable Quotes:…

Is anyone aware of a movement against verbal violence?

kiwiblog sure as hell hasn't...

Since when have "childrens' rights" been "nonsense" anyway?

and that 'children's rights' meme is a recycled line from during the child discipline bill debates. i refer you to rbs indication of who's behind this discipline drive.

“All of these young people have entered a system of education and society where discipline and responsibility are being replaced by the politically correct nonsense of childrens’ rights,”

Graeme, I think that this part of the quote is a fair basis for the Herald byline.

Since when have "childrens' rights"…

Ahh the joys of labeling kids as Bad.

I got 10 of the best in primer 1 (I still cringe at my actions at 5yrs old – but the play ground had stones on it -…

The removal of corporal punishment in schools has been highlighted as a root cause of the rise in violence against teachers

This morning I also heard it was because of teh drugs and violent video games. OH COME ON PEOPLE! Whatever happened to violence begets violence? I thought that was…

I'd have said FF were actually less strident than the Herald made out:

The removal of corporal punishment in schools has been highlighted as a root cause of the rise…

Apparently, it's really due to brown people, brown people, brown people (not that he's blaming maori), and the welfare.

The Herald *is* a biased, authoritarian-conservative paper

Is that a change of tone in recent years? I must admit I have been quite surprised on the odd occassion recently I have picked up the Herald at just how reactionary it seemed. In a way a hadn't noticed in the past.…

The underlying message from Family First is of an entire society to lazy to to be bothered to think beyond reflexive violence and to self-righteous to look in the mirror. A peculiar provincial narrow mindedness seems to be a hallmark of our society, and it just depresses me.

Like I…

I was caned within a few weeks of starting Third Form at Shirley Boys' High.
The "crime"?... running in the Science lab.
The teacher, Mr Groves, enjoyed the caning…

But here's the original Family First release. And yes, they are similar.

Stuff, at least, qualifies the statement Rising violence in schools blamed on discipline changes by noting the source in its intro.

My school…

At best a pyrrhic 'victory'.

That would be…

the principal intervened, but chose not to strap me.

why? well, because he liked my brother less, even…

A few of the toughest got…

Boys will be boys. But this suggests schools are still having difficultly dealing with the less socially evolved member…

The kids who acted up and got strapped were bragging about it within 15 minutes.

At primary school, there was a Bad Girl in my class called Sharie who was the first and only girl to get the strap. Rather than making the rest of us girls behave, instead this…

My school abolished corporal punishment shortly after it started up in 1976, and there were far fewer problems with violence between pupils there (violence towards a teacher…

The removal of corporal punishment in schools has been highlighted as a root cause of the rise in violence against teachers.

Omitting the crucial journalistic principle of "Who?" with the attribution of…

years later my mother explained it had been because we were making noise in the corridor ... as if a 5 year…