Hard News: Swine flu, terror and Susan Boyle
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now that's a rebuttal.
why didn't you say that 10 pages ago.Because other people had already said it 10 pages ago. And 9 pages ago. And 8 pages ago. And 7 pages ago. And....
It may not have been as explicit, but the point was there. As many people pointed out, in this particular situation, an absolute, correct definition of 'murder', and whether it was an appropriate useage in this context, was a complete hairsplitting irrelevance.
I accept that Brickley was arguing in good faith, but the irrelevance and inaccuracy of his position was pointed out on numerous occasions, and he was politely asked to drop it. He didn't, so now people are getting exasperated.
My personal feeling is that my 'rebuttal' that you loved so much was using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I would have preferred not to steam in so heavily, but the polite, low-key approach wasn't working.
I spend a lot of time in my dayjob arguing semantics and splitting hairs with people who simply won't take a pragmatic, sensible view or interpretation of phrases or wording, even when the intention or sense of the wording, and what it does or doesn't mean, is absolutely crystal clear. That kind of absolutist, non-pragmatic approach is entrely counter-productive, time-consuming and creates a lot of ill-feeling.
For this reason, I'm not going to be respondiong to you again on this thread.
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Sidestepping to swine flu for a moment. I was talking to someone who knows about these things who reckons it is about to escalate here rapidly. 700 cases in Melbourne suddenly and schools closed. Some workplaces here are already asking employees to stay home in quarantine for a few days after returning from overseas just in case. And although this first wave doesn't appear too severe it is very likely to have a more virulent second wave. So it is sensible to be careful about handwashing etc and go to doctor for testing if you get sick.
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Anyway, Re your own points, since you made them:
1) isn't that directly addressed in the article?
2) so just apply it to rape then: do you concede abortion is legitimate in the case of rape? I am of the view that this thought experiment remains uncountered when it comes to abortion due to rape (but not necessarily otherwise).
3) Eh?1. it sure is, I was going to state that but I thought it was obvious :)
2. No, I don't concede for rape since I think that the fetus is an innocent person who deserves to live.
3. I know this is contentious, but I do think that mother and child have a special relationship. A woman aborting isn't just killing a person, but her own child. The violinist didn't have any relationship to the person charged with being hooked into life support.Suppose rather than a violinist, it was a 6 year old child who needed the 9 months of life support from his or her own mother? I know I would do that for my children, heck I'd likely do it for a perfect stranger. I don't think I could stand back and allow someone to die when I could save them.
I've always been pro-life, even when I wasn't religious. I've just always considered them babies. Tiny little baby beans inside their mummy. To me they are tiny little precious lives.
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Apropos Melbourne: I was talking to my daughter last night and she told me she has several friends in "quarantine."
She's also arriving on the plane this afternoon, so watch out for sneezing curly-haired teenagers...
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It may not have been as explicit,
its all in the explicit Rich.
Brickley had a point with the correct use of the correct word, his time line was out, you proved that.
His point still stands. you think it pragmatic but remember you're in a comments section of a blog.
I half agree though, the murder word aspect of Brickley's post was the least interesting part of it, I personally noted it and moved on,
The Terrorism aspect was much more interesting, particularly the removal of its definition in nz. It is an overused tainted phrase. I'll think twice before I use it again.ill feeling goes both ways, Brickley had a point argued in good faith, and he should be treated with respect for that. if people find it boring and obvious, ignore it, a one sided discussion isn't discussion at all. people were discussing it with him because they wanted to, they got some kind of enjoyment out of it and they could easily stop and it would stop.
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No, I don't concede for rape since I think that the fetus is an innocent person who deserves to live.
Yes, and the mother - who is obviously *not* innocent - deserves the added pleasure of gestating and giving birth to her rapist's child. Great little scheme your God and your Pope have got going there.
(And that's really the thing that gets me about the abortion debate: pretty much everybody is anti-abortion, seeing as it is a trauma in the best of circumstances, but the anti-choice crowd - or pro-lifers if you prefer - are all religious. If it was a rational thing, worthy of actual discussion and thought experiments, then surely one's faith would be incidental to it at best.)
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It seems I wasn't the only one suspicious of the claim that only three doctors in the US would perform late term abortions.
This is from a pro-life website:
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Sory, can't help it, I'm built that way.
Steve?
he says its an accurate description. -
It seems I wasn't the only one suspicious of the claim that only three doctors in the US would perform late term abortions.
So there *may* be six doctors instead of three, for a country of three hundred million. Women in the US are just *rolling* in late term abortion providers, aren't they? It's clear that none of the doctors are the least intimidated by that constant threat of death. Hooray!
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Steve?
he says its an accurate description.Frankly I'm astounded.
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it sure is, I was going to state that but I thought it was obvious :)
Yeah, well, I would have thought it obvious that the NYT style guide Brickley referred to didn’t support his point like he thought it did, so you never can tell round here. : )
No, I don't concede for rape since I think that the fetus is an innocent person who deserves to live.
So is the violinist.
Anyway, I don’t want to get into too much of a debate on this here. I’ll just point to this article by Jean Kazez that correlates to my view pretty well.
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Tess, regardless of how many doctors are performing late-term abortions in the US, it is a high-risk occupation which certain groups and individuals have targeted with violent messages and actions.
Whether there are only three doctors remaining performing such abortions in the US is not really the point (although several news sources have provided those stats for dramatic effect) - the issue is a man has been killed just for doing his legal job. I know you don't agree with the actions of his killer; the real issue here is not the right or wrong of abortion - its about the murder of Dr Tiller.
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So there *may* be six doctors instead of three, for a country of three hundred million.
There were 13,310 late-term abortions for 2005 (1.1% of 1.21 million), and 8% of abortion providers offered abortions at 24 weeks, so that's 143 providers out of 1787 doing late term abortions.
I also wonder if early inductions are being counted as abortions. I know they are in New Zealand, but I don't know if that is true for the US. But that is purely a conjecture on my part.
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I know you don't agree with the actions of his killer; the real issue here is not the right or wrong of abortion - its about the murder of Dr Tiller.
Yes, you are right. Although the conversation has veered off a bit into the wider implications of his murder.
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It is incredibly weird (and not really surprising, all the same) that these sorts of conversations always wind up in the 'let's define murder!'/'let's define terrorism!'/'let's define late-term!' spiral of crapola. I understand the purpose it serves (trivialising a murder as part of a terrorist campaign because we don't likey teh abortionz), but it's frustrating anyway.
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As a newbie but sometime lurker I have to admire the ability a few of the regulars, e.g. Danielle, Giovanni, Sacha, Sofie, Russell and others have to pull the conversation back from quibbling over minutiae to topical discussion. Sometimes it seems like an insurmountable task but somehow you manage to get the train back on the rails - impressive
Apologies if I sound like a fangirl but PAS is a real breath of fresh air
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(trivialising a murder as part of a terrorist campaign because we don't likey teh abortionz)
If you're directing that comment at me, I don't think it's a very fair one.
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The 'trivialising a murder' part was aimed at Brickley and the 'as part of a terrorist campaign' part was aimed at you. I'm equal opportunity, me.
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"Why do we expect people to follow the Church on condoms use, when they ignore the Church on the actual having sex bit? "
Sounds like me :) Contraception isn't an issue (look at the size of Catholic families prior to the 70's to now) and the Pope should change his position.
I'm not a fan of the abortion debate. It focuses on women at a most vulnerable time when want is needed is a societal change to greater appreciation of life.
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the ability a few of the regulars, e.g. Danielle... have to pull the conversation back from quibbling over minutiae to topical discussion
Speaking for myself, I think about 75% of my life, both virtual (PAS-included) and meat-based, is basically spent quibbling over minutiae. But thanks. :)
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Yes, and the mother - who is obviously *not* innocent - deserves the added pleasure of gestating and giving birth to her rapist's child.
Of course the mother is innocent.
Being a woman who isn't on contraception I have often wondered what I would do if raped and got pregnant, and I still couldn't kill my own child because of what his/her father had done.
Any way, back to protests and harassment. Does everyone here know about John Yoo? He gave evil legal advice to the Bush administration regarding torture, ie. torture away.
Now protests are being held outside his home and fliers are being distributed to his neighbors alerting them of the criminal who lives among them.
This is the kind of tactic that has been deplored when it involved doctors that perform abortions. How do you feel about it being used against John Yoo? In this case I'm sure you will join me in saying that what Yoo did in his professional life was morally wrong, although seemingly legal in America.
Should Yoo be treated this way by protesters?
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Out of interest, at what week of pregnancy would you not allow an abortion? Because after 30 weeks baby is very viable.
Not very viable with minimal technical support though. I think at 38 - 38 weeks, where there is less need for ICU intervention for the premmie is a better point. But at any point, right up to full term, the mother's right to life far outweighs the infant's.
Superstition - by that I mean religion - is just fine, but it has no place in society - certainly not in hospitals or schools - no place outside religious people's own private spiritual pursuits.
Embryologist Lewis Wolpert says it so much better than I do:
“I’m not against religion,” he explains. “Invoking God to explain evolution and the origin of life doesn’t help one iota, but it makes people feel better. That’s the point, you see? I’m only against religion when it starts to interfere with other things, like telling people they can’t use contraception, or banning abortion, or stopping euthanasia. These bloody religious nuts in Parliament! Nobody else, other than the Catholic Church, ever went around saying a fertilised egg was a human being, and now people are starting to believe it. Authority plays a big role in our beliefs.” -
Sidestepping to swine flu for a moment. I was talking to someone who knows about these things who reckons it is about to escalate here rapidly. 700 cases in Melbourne suddenly and schools closed.
Yes, I have friends who know a thing of two about epidemiology, and they're terribly scared of this pandemic too. I hear H1N1 (as it is really a mosaic of porcine, avian and human viruses and not a swine flu at all) is about to be declared a Level 6 Pandemic Alert by the WHO.
The real problem they anticipate is really a cluster of problems - one of the biggest being the fact that there is no herd immunity to this disease. So where a conventional virus tends to pop up and fizzle out in communities, this one will spread exponentially, as there are no pockets of population (except perhaps those over 60 years of age) who have anything resembling immunity. And one of the problems that poses is the overload on ICU wards in developed countries, and as hospitals become swamped with cases we will see a sharp rise in mortality rate. This is why public health agencies are so anxious than this not spread so quickly - they are trying to buy us some time for the vaccine to be developed.
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i will not deny it - i get really pissed when people blithely, even daftly refer to 'religion' in the same breath 'as superstition'.. What kind of Schmoe don't understand the difference yet between these? Superstition is when one sets peculiar store in the significance of certain minor acts, such as breaking a mirror or when one reads a personal significance into occurrences that just isn't 'there'...
now what anyone would want to conflate such afflictions with what simply amounts to the orginary human science, ie religion or the culturally-specific recollection of the event that made us human, is quite beyond me..
(unless the very act of doing so is itself to superstitiously 'ward off' serious thought!)
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You're right. Superstition of course makes more sense and has the added advantage of being mostly harmless.
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