Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Steven Joyce: Prick or Treat

Sacha

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 13:22:31 +1200

lack of caffeine

a harsh mistress

Matthew Poole

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 13:09:05 +1200

endless people arguing ooo no we pay too much tax already

Or, apparently, believing that Bill English's spread in Dipton comes with that rarely-found species of tree: the pinus money-printarius. They're the ones who demand to know how Labour et al are going to pay for their various policies, as…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 13:02:55 +1200

You meant putting the cart before the horse … rather than the reverse?

Yes, I did. I got too fancy for the early hour and lack of caffeine :(

Bart Janssen

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 12:08:00 +1200

Not sure that aspiring to be at the top of the OECD for tax take is something that would go over well with the focus groups, though.

I was addressing the rather silly suggestion that because we are merely 4% below the OECD average taxation that we should feel comfortable…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 12:00:08 +1200

low taxation results in shitty lives for the population

A direct causal link? A long bow indeed.

Go to Cambodia. No really, actually visit the country. You will see the result of near 100% tax avoidance. Schools built from foreign aid, but no teachers because there is no taxation to…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:55:44 +1200

Starting with the question of “How much should we tax?” seems to be rather putting the equine beast before the towed, wheeled carriage.

What we have done in NZ for the last three decades is argue that we can and should reduce our tax take. We have pretended that providing…

Farmer Green

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:43:58 +1200

“should be at least sufficient to achieve that”

Agreed.

Farmer Green

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:42:55 +1200

low taxation results in shitty lives for the population

A direct causal link? A long bow indeed.

linger

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:35:52 +1200

Except that he started off with “rather”, which implies that he regards the following order as a mistake.

ETA: "should be no more than necessary to achieve that" goes a bit too far — I suspect it's "should be at least sufficient to achieve that"

Farmer Green

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:34:13 +1200

Matthew's point was that well-being and and social progress (?) are the objectives, and the tax take ought to be no more than is necessary to achieve those objectives.

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:25:45 +1200

I don't think he did. You want the horse to be before the cart: you want the question of "how much should we tax" to come before "where do we sit in relation to the OECD average tax rate"?

linger

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 11:00:04 +1200

You meant putting the cart before the horse ... rather than the reverse?

Angela Hart

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 10:28:30 +1200

We should aspire to be in at least the top third of the OECD on metrics of social progress and well-being, work out how to fund that progress, and then be where we end up being for tax take against the OECD average. Starting with the question of "How much…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:53:18 +1200

And yet again, do we aspire to the OECD average or to the top of the OECD.

Not sure that aspiring to be at the top of the OECD for tax take is something that would go over well with the focus groups, though.

We should aspire to be in…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:38:21 +1200

At 31% of GDP, NZ’s total tax take is not very different from the OECD unweighted average of 35%.

A 12.9% increase in government revenue, from 31% to 35% would be huge!

And yet again, do we aspire to the OECD average or to the top of the OECD. All…

Farmer Green

Mon, 11 Aug 2014 08:39:38 +1200

At 31% of GDP, NZ's total tax take is not very different from the OECD unweighted average of 35%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

David Hood

Sat, 09 Aug 2014 22:16:36 +1200

On science funding, the current SMBC seems topical SMBC comic

Keir Leslie

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 15:38:41 +1200

The R&D tax credits go nowhere near the value of the CGT plus increase in top rate, which is intentional. And yes, I think the long run idea is to open room to possibly make the overall tax take more progressive by cutting tax on low/middle income earners, or to possibly…

Stephen R

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 15:24:59 +1200

I was meaning politically universal rather than communally universal.
Ah, fair enough, sorry for misunderstanding.

One of the things I really liked about Michael Cullen as Finance minister was that he ignored for so many years the bleating for tax cuts, and instead paid off debt while the going was…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 15:13:26 +1200

Labour is proposing an increase in net tax. CGT plus increase in the top tax band, and there’s no major corresponding cuts. It’s how Labour pays for all the spending promises.

They’re offering the possibility of tax cuts in a second term, plus R&D tax credits immediately. That doesn’t look like…

Keir Leslie

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 15:05:51 +1200

Labour is proposing an increase in net tax. CGT plus increase in the top tax band, and there's no major corresponding cuts. It's how Labour pays for all the spending promises.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 14:55:57 +1200

I was meaning politically universal rather than communally universal. Mana appears to be nearly, almost campaigning with a clear policy of a net tax increase, but none of the other parties that have a show of getting into Parliament are doing the same (unless I've missed something in the Greens'…

Stephen R

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 14:36:41 +1200

Or do you mean "we cannot and should not increase the overall tax take"? Because the latter seems to be a pretty universal sentiment outside of the NZ Communist Party, with even the Greens looking to trade off some increased taxes here with some decreased taxes over there.

Speaking as…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 13:42:42 +1200

“we cannot and should not increase the overall tax take”

Yeah that. Despite the fact NZ has a relatively low total tax take in comparison worldwide and very low compared to those countries at the top of all the leaderboards we like to compete on, we continue to believe that…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 13:29:02 +1200

the ridiculous proposition that National and Labour both subscribe to – that we cannot and should not raise taxes.

Bart, may I introduce you to Labour's policies to introduce a CGT and a new top income tax bracket? Or do you mean "we cannot and should not increase the overall…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 12:06:58 +1200

Science funding is being cut because National are adamantly opposed to tax increases/new taxes

Truth be told I blame decreased science funding on the ridiculous proposition that National and Labour both subscribe to – that we cannot and should not raise taxes. This despite all evidence worldwide indicating low taxation…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 11:58:23 +1200

the public don’t appear to care that our science funding is being starved to death to build more roads

Except that the two are not related. Science funding comes from the Consolidated Fund. The Roads of Dubious Significance are funded by fuel excise and Road User Charges. You can blame…

Moz

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 10:44:04 +1200

We spent three years learning hardcore maths, thermodynamics, etc, and a cursory 2-3 weeks at the end of the course at the local college learing how to weld, bend pipes, cast metal, etc.

In NZ we do a Polytech course in that normally at the start of an engineering degree,…

NBH

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 10:06:38 +1200

Yup. The brutal fact is that a good MSc is worth almost nothing. We pay our managers, finance and admin staff “market rates” but we pay our technicians the lowest amount we can get away with. We see people all the time make the entirely rational decision to take their…

Sacha

Fri, 08 Aug 2014 09:16:44 +1200

yet our senior executives continue to get pay rises

That's a problem in any industry. Those execs wring their hands about not being able to afford payrises for their staff – because increased profits are going back to the shareholders/owners.

Rich Lock

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 20:53:05 +1200

It was interesting for me to learn fabrication engineering, and compleat an arts degree at the same campus. The art* academics and the boilermakers, had no idea what each other did. They couldn’t even speak the same language. I was at pains to explain to the engineers, that artists creat…

Rich Lock

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 20:47:47 +1200

and leaving only politicians behind.

And the estate agents.

And don't forget the all-important telephone sanitisers!

Stephen R

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 14:05:32 +1200

often winding up in IT

I applied for a job as a programmer sort and explained that my BSc degree was in philosophy (no, really), and the head of the department replied that since his degree was in classics, he completely understood...

It's not just science degrees.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 13:47:22 +1200

But NZ doesn’t have grad-level jobs for people with science degrees, either. I know several people with reasonably good degrees in bioscience who have been unable to get any kind of grad-level job (often winding up in IT/teaching/overseas).

Yup. The brutal fact is that a good MSc is worth almost…

Stephen Judd

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 12:07:16 +1200

often winding up in IT

Yeah we seem to end up employing a lot of them at work.

st ephen

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 11:34:31 +1200

It is worth noting that Peter Gluckman’s been the driving force behind the National Science Challenges and they’re one of his pet projects; I’m somewhat surprised that no one’s asked him for his views on all this yet.
Don't be surprised if few scientists are willing to go public with…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 11:26:18 +1200

The vast majority of people who might embark on a science degree aren't aiming or expecting to be tenured academics though.

But NZ doesn't have grad-level jobs for people with science degrees, either. I know several people with reasonably good degrees in bioscience who have been unable to get any…

Lucy Stewart

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 11:18:36 +1200

Yep, same here. No career path, not even a start on one should a youngster be mad enough to want to try.

So, off they go overseas, taking their intellects with them.

Scientific careers are difficult to come by everywhere; here in the US, for example, the odds of a…

linger

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 11:16:27 +1200

off they go overseas, taking their intellects with themand leaving only politicians behind.

stever@cs.waikato.ac.nz

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 10:55:45 +1200

Yep, same here. No career path, not even a start on one should a youngster be mad enough to want to try.

So, off they go overseas, taking their intellects with them.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 10:08:44 +1200

And more depressing comment on the NSCs
http://datascinz.blogspot.co.nz/2014/08/from-national-science-challenges-to.html?m=1

Sofie Bribiesca

Thu, 07 Aug 2014 09:53:50 +1200

If you don’t like a parties list MPs, don’t vote for the party.

oops ! I meant I agreed with "The manner in which democracy is run and the business of government is conducted is such that neither are a servant of the people " Steven Joyce is just a…

NBH

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 12:03:21 +1200

It is worth noting that Peter Gluckman's been the driving force behind the National Science Challenges and they're one of his pet projects; I'm somewhat surprised that no one's asked him for his views on all this yet.

Jeremy Andrew

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:41:22 +1200

But I still trust in the people at the bench to do their best so long as some money gets to them.

And that's the problem we're having around my neck of the woods. Good people who won't be at the bench because the money isn't getting to them.

Carol Stewart

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:18:22 +1200

Yes, I do too. Scientists are amazing people.

Bart Janssen

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 11:13:37 +1200

In the sector I’m in there’s a high level of despondency, cynicism and anger about this new funding structure, which is widely seen as a great leap backwards and a criminal waste of time.

Oh same here. And yes it's criminal to waste taxpayers (my) money on a dumbass new…

Sacha

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:57:18 +1200

List MPs are there to represent communities of interest, not place. The accountability mechanism is not an electorate but a party. The idea was that the public would join a political party to influence its list selection processes.

I’d rather have a parliament that looks more like our whole population,…

Sacha

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:54:03 +1200

I wish us viewers had that power

Great idea – sound mix enabled at home.

Carol Stewart

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 10:09:13 +1200

I'll respectfully disagree with you there, Bart, though I much admire your pragmatism. In the sector I'm in there's a high level of despondency, cynicism and anger about this new funding structure, which is widely seen as a great leap backwards and a criminal waste of time.

Carol Stewart

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 09:57:02 +1200

Hear! Hear!

I believe party lists are the price we pay for MMP, Sofie.
Of course we could try doing as they do in Baden-Wurttemberg:
__In Baden-Württemberg there are no lists; they use the "best near-winner" method in a four-region model, where the regional members are the local candidates of…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 09:54:36 +1200

What a fucking disaster.

Honestly it really isn't a disaster. Yes as a new funding tool it's a cock-up of the first water, but that's no different to most of the new funding tools introduced over the last three decades by Labour and National governments.

The notable exceptions are The…

Richard Aston

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 09:46:22 +1200

The sound mixer should’ve wound down his microphone.

I do wish directors would do this.

+1
I wish us viewers had that power .

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 09:22:37 +1200

abolishing list MPs

So we have a National/Labour duopoly, with both sides passively alternating and implementing similar hard right/soft right policies? I think not.

If you don't like a parties list MPs, don't vote for the party.

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 06 Aug 2014 08:51:29 +1200

The manner in which democracy is run and the business of government is conducted is such that neither are a servant of the people – Steven Joyce a pretty good reason for abolishing list MPs.

Hear! Hear!

DexterX

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 21:47:57 +1200

The manner in which democracy is run and the business of government is conducted is such that neither are a servant of the people – Steven Joyce a pretty good reason for abolishing list MPs.

"No Future" for you Joe Public.

Carol Stewart

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 21:39:12 +1200

Swears fully justified, sir.
My reaction to that NZAS survey was much the same as yours ..

Sacha

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 21:31:00 +1200

after Joyce's efforts on broadband would we expect any better on science?

Russell Brown

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 21:26:35 +1200

…with a hat tip to Carol Stewart who linked to that yesterday just upthread…

Heh. Indeed. Do I get points for the extra swears?

stever@cs.waikato.ac.nz

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 20:57:48 +1200

Yes, it's been awful.

Those who have tried to get involved have had a hard time of it...trying to convince those who think they already know what is best for the country that the whole point of research is to find out new things, rather than simply try to confirm…

Rich Lock

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 20:45:53 +1200

...with a hat tip to Carol Stewart who linked to that yesterday just upthread...

Russell Brown

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 19:22:34 +1200

Holy shit.

Results of the New Zealand Association of Scientists survey about National Science Challenges.

What a fucking disaster.

Angela Hart

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:54:04 +1200

Science is terribly badly funded in NZ and it's incredibly silly because science and technology are the areas we need to develop and even this government accepts that.
My job used to be promoting science and technology careers but the gap in earnings between pure science and pure technology is…

Angela Hart

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:38:24 +1200

yes, she has previously used an aggressive style , which I dislike intensely, but Joyce behaved badly from the outset and was only slightly better after the ad break. Given the provocation I thought both Robertson and Owen controlled themselves well, but wished Owen had either stopped it or laid…

llew40

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 10:55:46 +1200

While it was all a bit unedifying and more suited to the institutionalised chaos of 'robust Parliamentary debate', I think its also fair to say Lisa Owen has been guilty of employing an overly aggressive interviewing style herself in the past. While it very occasionally makes for entertaining TV, it…

Jeremy Andrew

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:58:40 +1200

I have no doubt that the scientists funded by the money will do great work, we always find a way to do the best work possible. But the cost in conforming to yet another funding and reporting structure and the time and money wasted in setting this up makes me…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:58:39 +1200

His notes seemed rather lacking and once repeated a few times left him bereft of knowledge of what was discussed therefore resorting to childish spoilt behaviour methinks.

I've said something before about how vampires behave when threatened with exposure to sunlight – the best possible disinfectant.

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:47:24 +1200

Lisa could have terminated the interview or threatened to do so and it should not have continued after the ad break.

She or management must have said something in the ad break. Further on Joyce whinges about saying he was giving Robertson his chance to speak and he wanted likewise,…

Carol Stewart

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:21:02 +1200

Good on you, Bart. I think most of my colleagues who've been heavily involved have approached the whole exercise with goodwill and good faith also.
Increasing the Marsden fund was a pretty consistent theme among the responses to the NZAS survey.

Bart Janssen

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 09:11:37 +1200

Steven Joyce is also bullishly insisting that all is well with the National Science Challenges, despite steadily accumulating evidence that NSC are turning into a Novopay-scale trainwreck.

I've tried to stay generous and positive about the NSC, but it isn't easy. The money put into the scheme is pathetic when…

Carol Stewart

Tue, 05 Aug 2014 00:00:26 +1200

Steven Joyce is also bullishly insisting that all is well with the National Science Challenges, despite steadily accumulating evidence that NSC are turning into a Novopay-scale trainwreck. See here also for a summary of the NZ Association of Scientists' survey across the science sector about the NSC process. It is…

Angela Hart

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 23:10:14 +1200

I was horrified that Joyce was so disrespectful and allowed to get away with it. There were options. Lisa could have terminated the interview or threatened to do so and it should not have continued after the ad break. However it did give me a much better understanding of the…

Russell Brown

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 22:44:42 +1200

I think the rumour is being put about by the same person who tried to convince me Steve Hansen is looking at Kim Dotcom as a possible replacement for Aaron Smith. There are just a few eligibility issues, I understand.

I rather think you're right.

Sacha

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:22:54 +1200

The sound mixer should've wound down his microphone.

I do wish directors would do this.

Myles Thomas

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 18:34:12 +1200

Lisa Owen had no options with Joyce short of putting him in time out. The sound mixer should've wound down his microphone.

Tinakori

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 17:33:32 +1200

Russell Brown

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 15:04:20 +1200

I’d heard a whisper that Slater is after a good list spot and Collins has promised him one once Key (who prefers not to have any more convicted crims in his caucus than strictly necessary) is out of the way.

That would be a disaster. His opponents will only need…

tony j ricketts

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 14:17:05 +1200

Labour really needs to tell the seat-warmers within its caucus to know when to quit, but is the risk of a party split worth it?

The Labour Party is a big complex organism. From the leadership contest (itself a bit of a revolution) to the election was less than a…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:49:23 +1200

I'd heard a whisper that Slater is after a good list spot and Collins has promised him one once Key (who prefers not to have any more convicted crims in his caucus than strictly necessary) is out of the way.

Russell Brown

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:37:58 +1200

It’s not the first time this has happened to Lisa. She needs to set the rules then terminate the interview if people break them.

Easier said than done, of course. But yeah — in that situation you need to very firmly establish who's boss and whose show it is.

Kevin McCready

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:19:37 +1200

It's not the first time this has happened to Lisa. She needs to set the rules then terminate the interview if people break them.

Sacha

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 11:18:07 +1200

what, speculate about what will happen inside Labour after the election? don't think so

Keir Leslie

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 11:03:21 +1200

Except, ah, look above at the post where you do exactly that.

Sacha

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 10:25:29 +1200

I'd rather the left get on with winning this election than waste any more of our energy speculating about the fate of its largest party. It has proved spectacularly impervious to well-intentioned feedback for quite some time anyway.

william blake

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 10:07:12 +1200

Only a third of voters believe John Key when he says he had never heard of Kim Dotcom until the eve of the raid on Dotcom mansion

A song from the Lange family regarding Mr Keys believability.

http://clyp.it/b3esimvz

Keir Leslie

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 09:39:00 +1200

Yeah I dunno like Rob Salmond, I would just rather not to do the weird purge thing. I dunno. Just me.

Euan Mason

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 09:17:33 +1200

The best person for the job post key appears to be Bill English.

There's going to be a hell of a lot of damage to repair. Do you think New Zealanders will be up for it, or will we just continue to drift with laissez faire?

Tristan

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 08:28:07 +1200

The best person for the job post key appears to be Bill English. He keeps his head down enough that he doesn't appear like a complete asshole all the time.

Of course the first leader post key will lose so why would he want to do that again?

Tom Semmens

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 07:36:36 +1200

But for reals, it is just the absolute laziest analysis in the world.

Expel Trevor, he can be the Admiral Byng pour encourager les autres.

andin

Mon, 04 Aug 2014 07:15:05 +1200

Joyce may have simply been prepared to look like an arsehole
You can bet your wooly socks he didnt see it like that. Oh No! He probably saw himself as a fearless fighter for Truth, Justice and the Key Way.
Perceptions are a funny thing,
when madness is rife in…

Keir Leslie

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 23:44:48 +1200

But for reals, it is just the absolute laziest analysis in the world.

Keir Leslie

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 23:42:44 +1200

Oh god lord it's the dread ABCs again. Really?

Ross Mason

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 22:51:53 +1200

It's very sad, as much as I would very much like to comment on this he is now my boss. And it being election time we have been informed that we must be careful about what and where we comment. Bye for now.

Kumara Republic

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 22:43:15 +1200

yes

Were a split to happen, where would the ABCs bolt to, NZ First? And if they actually did, then why didn't they bolt in 1993-96, when NZ First formed in the first place and Helen Clark took charge of Labour?

Sacha

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 21:11:53 +1200

This time she was not able to keep two males in check

really?

Sacha

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 21:10:17 +1200

Labour really needs to tell the seat-warmers within its caucus to know when to quit, but is the risk of a party split worth it?

yes

Sacha

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 21:09:42 +1200

I'd recorded Cunliffe as being brisk, straightford and relaxed, even as he basked in Lawrence Lessig's praise for his telecommunications reforms,

Yes, a globally-obvious accomplishment of policy and implementation; not relying on a sub-par strategy/comms team.

Kumara Republic

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 20:00:58 +1200

The quality of recruiting under her and Mike Williams was very low with the continued rise to dominance of the party apparrachik, people who who have spent most of their lives focused on politics and for whom their political identity is a major part of their personal identity.

The likes…

Kumara Republic

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 19:56:28 +1200

There might be more to the problem than just Cunliffe.

If there's only one factor in that regard, it'd have to be ALP-style factionalism. Labour really needs to tell the seat-warmers within its caucus to know when to quit, but is the risk of a party split worth it?

Tinakori

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 17:05:47 +1200

"If and when John Key decides to quit parliamentary politics, he will leave a large and possibly quite destructive vacuum to fill."

A lot like Helen Clark, with a couple of important differences. The quality of recruiting under her and Mike Williams was very low with the continued rise to…

Marc C

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 16:20:07 +1200

Well, what a "performance" by Steven Joyce on 'The Nation', it was truly a "shocker". No wonder he is a List MP. It was indeed one of the worst "interviews" I have ever seen. He must have had a bad night, a terrible hangover or whatever, to lose control to…

Public Address

Sun, 03 Aug 2014 15:55:12 +1200

Discussion from blog post.