Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Standing together

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:03:19 +1200

Rio Tinto have just won the 2013 Roger Award…
and here’s a picture I prepared earlier….

Sofie Bribiesca

Sat, 19 Apr 2014 12:54:40 +1200

criss cross…

Did someone mention Oravida? I was just nosying around this morning thinking about donations and foundthis old article
It wasn't $56,600.00 in donations from Oravida to the National Party , more like $406,600.00.What the theme seems to be is "change the Name many times", get many Ministers.Shi even…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 19 Apr 2014 07:40:38 +1200

if the Tiwai Point smelter doesn’t survive the next electoral term
Rio Tinto have just won the 2013 Roger Award...
It won the 2011 Roger Award and was runner up in 2012, 2009 and 08. One 2013 nomination said simply and in its entirety: “Blackmailing country”. So, 2013 saw more…

Kumara Republic

Fri, 18 Apr 2014 18:45:23 +1200

It would seem that Labour and the Greens are not so much standing together as falling apart together if the latest Roy Morgan Poll poll is anything to go by. Gary Morgan comments on their poll

I sometimes wonder if Cunliffe & Norman should tank the 2014 election...

[[http://www.forbes.com/sites/jessecolombo/2014/04/17/12-reasons-why-new-zealands-economic-bubble-will-end-in-disaster/2/|Forbes: 12 Reasons…

DexterX

Fri, 18 Apr 2014 09:15:26 +1200

And again, when Native Affairs tried to report the story, rather than responding to the concerns, the trust got an injunction to stop them going to air. (This actually backfired hugely, because people associated with the trust had to swear revealing affidavits that the judge ruled could be used by…

Henry Barnard

Thu, 17 Apr 2014 17:51:52 +1200

It would seem that Labour and the Greens are not so much standing together as falling apart together if the latest Roy Morgan Poll poll is anything to go by. Gary Morgan comments on their poll
Today’s results show it is time Labour focused more on articulating its policies for…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:48:07 +1200

Bits of the law look fascinating, other bits
make me want to wear rubber gloves....
...as a callow yoof I really enjoyed Misleading Cases – with Roy Dotrice and Alastair Sim as respectively, Albert Haddock and Justice Swallow, from AP Herbert's book Uncommon Law.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:43:41 +1200

and that this isn’t your blog post on rudeness in communications

Oh, it surely is, but lawyers are paid to be nasty to people who aren't their clients. Bit of a key distinction. That woman was being rude above and beyond the call of duty to someone who was complaining…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:40:16 +1200

You might care to reflect on how vile being exposed to action from a well-heeled litigant is for a journalist, especially one without an employer to protect them.

I don't particularly need you to explain to me about being on the wrong end of a massive power imbalance with legal…

Stephen R

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:32:29 +1200

Observing in court one day, I witnessed a gentleman being prosecuted for breaching a non-contact order by driving down the street his partner/ex-partner lived on, and waving at her.

The defendant's lawyer was putting it to the judge that the defendant should not be punished because he was driving down…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:26:22 +1200

It is, of course, not beyond the bounds of possibility that some advisors’ advice downplays the potential reputational or other harm of taking action because there’s not much money to be made out of “just ignore it – trying to do anything will only make the situation worse”

Not to…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:19:57 +1200

..how nasty lawyers are….
…on the odds of human nature, I’d posit some are, most aren’t.
But I couldn’t possibly comment on a case I know absolutely nothing about,
let alone get all, well, childish about it.
But I’m guessing you aren’t in the law or customer service…
…and that…

Russell Brown

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 08:06:42 +1200

And paw widdle Cwaigy was picked on by the nasty lawyers because they got his name out of a phone book? Fuck off. You pissed off the lawyers’ clients (nice work, by the way, whatever it was you wrote), and that is why the lawyers’ toolbox got opened.

Get a…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 16 Apr 2014 07:37:05 +1200

You ever faced the serious prospect of being financially and professionally destroyed, about a year out of journalism school, because you did you job?

And paw widdle Cwaigy was picked on by the nasty lawyers because they got his name out of a phone book? Fuck off. You pissed off…

Rich Lock

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 22:34:53 +1200

Which is all very interesting but the reality is suggesting that personal morality has no role in law because of the professional code is both daft and something that lawyers insist is important.

I work in law, and on many occasions I have been in a position where there are…

Rich Lock

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 22:06:10 +1200

replicate the Milgram experiment

An interesting choice, given that the validty of the findings has been quite heavily queried/criticised, and also that the American Psychological Association enacted a set of ethical guidelines for study participants as a direct result of the outcry following publication of the results.

Rich Lock

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 21:57:29 +1200

If you conduct research with human subjects without obtaining human ethics committee approval, falsify data, or engage in plagiarism, then although there’s a good chance you haven’t broken any law you will be subject to professional sanctions up to and including effectively not being able to practise as a scientist…

Andrew Geddis

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:32:41 +1200

You should check, but I’m pretty sure their power comes directly from the law.

That's just simply not true. Otherwise they would be called "legal panels". And why exactly do I need to check – I thought you were the scientist who should have some general idea about the systems…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:27:22 +1200

“lawyers just execute their client's requests as per their obligation” line a little trite.

Hey, whilst lawyers in the past have cost me dearly and more recently been very helpful, I put them in similar category to Real Estate agents. We need them on occasion and we trust that they…

Gareth Ward

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 15:25:47 +1200

their advisors ought to be spelling out the risks involved in any particular course of action.
And those advisors are often (usually?) the ones suggesting the course of action, so I find the standard "lawyers just execute their client's requests as per their obligation" line a little trite.

Russell Brown

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 14:39:07 +1200

True and on Native affairs last night , this press release received ( which I cant find anywhere else) and read by Mihingarangi Forbes was given by Te Kotahitanga o Mataatua Tauranga Moana
It’s about 15 secs in if anyone is interested.

That was interesting. If true, the hui was…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:55:09 +1200

subject to professional sanctions

Ok look you are kind of right but also not. Yes my employer can place restrictions on my behaviour but they only have legal bearing in so much as I can have my employment terminated (subject to labour laws).

Yes my peers can shun me from…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:44:04 +1200

And so how do you explain all those ethics panels at my University?

You should check, but I'm pretty sure their power comes directly from the law. There simply is no code of ethics than has power other than a warm fuzzy feeling. It may be called an ethics committee…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:28:36 +1200

Gold miner,
Mine?
A General Parts Sales Manager for a Ford main dealership in the UK. Started working for them when he was 14, was given time off to fight in WW2 then back to the firm till the day he was replaced by a computer at the age of…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:22:03 +1200

So there are those things to consider.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 13:07:36 +1200

...your father was a Headmaster?
Gold miner, tank driver,
post-cutter, wool-classer,
gardener, thinker,
and gentle man....

Steve Barnes

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:53:55 +1200

Sense of Entitlement™
Now available to White Middle Class Maori.
Whether its a Kappa Haka or a Cuppa Tea.
Your bread's buttered both sides after Dinner with Key.
You can have your cake and eat it and you can eat your neighbours too*.
And come up smelling Rose's, albeit Rose's…

Andrew Geddis

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:33:28 +1200

So there are those things to consider.

Yes. And people don't make decisions about what legal steps to pursue in a vacuum – their advisors ought to be spelling out the risks involved in any particular course of action.

It is, of course, not beyond the bounds of possibility that…

Steve Barnes

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:28:01 +1200

Principled polity…
As usual Ian, you show yourself to be a man of Principal (your father was a Headmaster?)

Russell Brown

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:12:43 +1200

Yet people feel quite entitled to talk down their noses about a profession that has both a statutory obligation to the law and to their clients, as well as a professional obligation to same. How’s that work? What makes y’all so high and mighty and moral that you get to…

Keir Leslie

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 12:03:30 +1200

You can believe in the cab rank rule for barristers but think that solicitors have different obligations, that’s not impossible.

Apart from anything else, barristers operate in an adversarial environment with pretty direct oversight by an impartial judge. Solicitors don’t in general.

[Not that we have a split profession but…

NBH

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:34:41 +1200

There simply is no "code of ethics" for scientists that has any strength other than in the individual morality of the scientists themselves

Um, I don't think that's true. Even if you don't belong to any professional scientific associations or societies that have codes for conduct or similar criteria for…

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:32:31 +1200

Yet people feel quite entitled to talk down their noses about a profession that has both a statutory obligation to the law and to their clients, as well as a professional obligation to same. How's that work? What makes y'all so high and mighty and moral that you get to…

Andrew Geddis

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:23:25 +1200

There simply is no “code of ethics” for scientists that has any strength other than in the individual morality of the scientists themselves. I am moral because I am moral not because of any “code”.

Oh, really? And so how do you explain all those ethics panels at my University?…

WH

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 11:03:37 +1200

A bit off topic, but this was Hillary Clinton's recent speech to the American Bar Association. She was accepting the 2013 ABA Medal.

I always enjoy watching the Insider:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFqYn3i_UQ0

There are quite a few people I'd like to yell at like that.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 10:37:34 +1200

nasal retentives…
Yet people feel quite entitled to talk down their noses about a profession that has both a statutory obligation to the law and to their clients, as well as a professional obligation to same.
Excuse me?
I ,for one, was just talking out of my arse…
(as usual)…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 10:23:18 +1200

for most jobs the “code of ethics” is the law.

Yet people feel quite entitled to talk down their noses about a profession that has both a statutory obligation to the law and to their clients, as well as a professional obligation to same. How's that work? What makes y'all…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:53:28 +1200

You have a code of ethics

Actually we don't. Unlike the law (and medical) profession, scientists have no (royally decreed) professional society. No lawyer can practice law without being part of that society that restricts behaviours. The same is not true of most other jobs, for most jobs the "code…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:38:34 +1200

if a lawyer finds themselves attacking the freedom of genuine investigative journalism by sending a bullying letter with no real substance to it, then again frankly, I’d have to wonder about the morality of that particular lawyer. And there is no doubt in anyone’s mind that the letter was intended…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:35:35 +1200

The solution to what happened here is to change our libel/defamation laws, not to say that there's something wrong with lawyers using the available tools to represent their clients

Word.

Matthew Poole

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:35:31 +1200

You know as a scientist I’m also bound by laws, if, like a lawyer, I assumed that anything not prevented by law was just hunky dory then there are a whole bunch of things I could do (legally) that would be morally indefensible.

You have a code of ethics, as…

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:32:18 +1200

Ah. It wasn't Mai Chen herself — Potaura seems to have used her name interchangeably with that of Chen Palmer itself.

Well, in that case I am happy to withdraw and apologize to Ms. Chen for my comments directed at her personally. Still think the firm with her name over…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:30:03 +1200

They said the Ministry of Education would not renew the contract with the trust in its present form when it expired on June 30 and set out the Government's expectation that the trust be reformed before treaty negotiations began.

They said the contract could be extended to October 30.

Today…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:29:03 +1200

In the case of the injunction against Native Affairs, the client’s interests were badly damaged by the action, because the required affidavits contained information that added to and supported Native Affairs’ report.

Sometimes you just have to give people the advice but know they'll still ignore it and insist on…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:25:09 +1200

start of a slope

ooo a slippery slope argument.

You know as a scientist I'm also bound by laws, if, like a lawyer, I assumed that anything not prevented by law was just hunky dory then there are a whole bunch of things I could do (legally) that would be…

Ewan Morris

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 09:09:35 +1200

This just in from the Herald – the Kohanga Reo National Trust has an army!

Native Affairs aired several stories last year about the trust – which received $92 million from the Government in 2012 for 463 kohanga reo -and its wholly owned commercial army, Te Pataka Ohanga (TPO).

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:57:18 +1200

– tea real Maori?

Tea chai token Maori?

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:51:00 +1200

The end of the letter is just out-and-out bullying
...perhaps the legal equivalent of the journalistic 'egregious blindside question' – with no grounding in truth – but the interviewee then has to give it credence, by denying it – and voila there's your 'killer' soundbite!

Russell Brown

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:40:31 +1200

Ah. It wasn't Mai Chen herself — Potaura seems to have used her name interchangeably with that of Chen Palmer itself.

The letter actually came from Chen Palmer principal Nicholas Palmer, as is clear from the full copy here.

The end of the letter is just out-and-out bullying. Disgraceful.

linger

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:39:15 +1200

This was tea alright
— tea real Maori?

Russell Brown

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:34:16 +1200

but within the bounds imposed by that duty their highest obligation is to do all within their competence to represent their client’s interests.

In the case of the injunction against Native Affairs, the client's interests were badly damaged by the action, because the required affidavits contained information that added to…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:25:15 +1200

I don’t recall Helen rubbing shoulders with any of the Maori Party’s supporters over dinner.

You will find that National Party Supporters were there as well as a few token Maori . This was tea alright ,just not in a cup like John Banks had.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:13:57 +1200

Principled polity…
lawyers are officers of the court and that is their principle duty, but within the bounds imposed by that duty their highest obligation is to do all within their competence to represent their client’s interests.
I think I get it:
In principle (as a general idea) they have…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 08:13:17 +1200

you’re going to find a way to let everyone who’s there get a little bit of one-one-one time.

It says everyone in the room is for sale and Keys out peddling the cost.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 07:43:16 +1200

The Chinese Envoy was there...
but (a bit to the) left...
Patanga...
...your error does serve to bring back fond memories of a big old Thorndon villa / crash pad in Patanga Cres, Wellington, mid-'70s (opposite the gardens and next to the Chinese Embassy)...

;- )

Matthew Poole

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 07:39:32 +1200

changing seats to be easy access for confidential conversation.

I didn't find anything overly WTF or scandalous about that particular bit. If you're offering up the PM as an announced guest at an exclusive, expensive dinner you're going to find a way to let everyone who's there get a little…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 07:36:08 +1200

Maybe its time for Lawyers to develop a moral/ethical framework then – otherwise they are just ‘guns for hire’, which is not what we should expect of professionals whose training has cost the public purse a lot of money

They have such a framework, Martin. There are both statutory obligations…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 15 Apr 2014 07:11:25 +1200

It speaks of money.

Indeed. That's the question worth pursuing which is why the letter was sent. The fact a Law Firm did it is just that it cost heaps.
It is also elitist to ban Native Affairs.
Plus, what the hell was that last night. Another worthy Native Affairs…

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:31:53 +1200

The question I’d like someone in the media to ask is why the Kohanga Reo National Trust even has a commercial subsidiary company.

It's not entirely unusual to have a wholly-owned delivery arm. But if you were a government agency it would be considered a controlled entity and be subject…

Martin Connelly

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 22:11:10 +1200

Maybe its time for Lawyers to develop a moral/ethical framework then – otherwise they are just 'guns for hire', which is not what we should expect of professionals whose training has cost the public purse a lot of money

Sacha

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:43:29 +1200

Te Pataka Ohanga -

Southern, then?

Ewan Morris

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 21:31:20 +1200

The question I'd like someone in the media to ask is why the Kohanga Reo National Trust even has a commercial subsidiary company. (Incidentally, it's called Te Pataka Ohanga – not Patanga.)

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 20:19:59 +1200

I have to agree that the ins and outs of which lawyer and/or firm drafted the letter is a distraction from the issue.

It is, except to the extent that getting a nastygram from Chen Palmer is more alarming than getting one from some local solicitor. It speaks of money.

Sacha

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 20:01:23 +1200

There are some interesting cultural tensions involved about governance styles, kaitiakitanga, and iwi vs urban Maori leadership. I'd welcome someone with better understanding of that to chip in.

TracyMac

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 19:58:55 +1200

I have to agree that the ins and outs of which lawyer and/or firm drafted the letter is a distraction from the issue.

It's the trust boards and their principals who are acting at best defensively and at worst quite aggressively against individuals and journalists asking hard but fair questions.…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 19:45:30 +1200

[delete that, I see you said what I said, really]

Jason Kemp

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 16:30:10 +1200

It is an indictment on the Trust to not be grown up enough to invite dialogue with the Native Affairs team.

In the herald today "It is the view of the Kohanga Reo movement that the intrusion by the Crown is unwelcome." – really.

The trust gets paid just over $2.5m…

Russell Brown

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 16:24:49 +1200

Any way, why does a stern letter have to be seen as bullying ?. Would it not be a lapse to NOT point out the full implications of a transgression. And it seems that the changes made to the web site have resolved the matter, that would appear all that…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:55:31 +1200

Do we want to live in a world in which your legal rights are determined by the personal moral scruples of whomsoever happens to be your lawyer at that time?

Not particularly. But I'd sure like to see libel law less easily used as a bludgeon to (and again, let's…

Nick Gibbs

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:41:54 +1200

Mai Chen isn't the cheapest lawyer in town and not for those counting their pennies.

By appearances it seems that the trust, who exist to serve their community, are in fact ready to spend big on behalf of the board and their mates.

Appearances matter and this trust is starting…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:37:35 +1200

And compare all this to the inflated airtime of the 'twilight golf', 'Maori sing-along' and 'hip-hop tour' courses.

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:31:17 +1200

Moz

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:28:47 +1200

Do we want to live in a world in which your legal rights are determined by the personal moral scruples of whomsoever happens to be your lawyer at that time?

As you've phrased the question, not so much. Ideally lawyers would decline to represent truly awful clients, yes. But that…

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:19:47 +1200

A parallel argument could be made in my profession that scientists should be allowed to research anything without regard to society or safety.

No it couldn't. I didn't say "lawyers can do anything to advance the interests of anyone". I said that lawyers will use the tools that the law…

Steve Curtis

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:17:28 +1200

There seems to be some confusion about Mai Chen the person and Chen Palmer the law firm.
A quick look at their web site ( the Law firm) shows a number of partners and principals, which could indicate that different people were handling the Phillipstown school and the Te Kohunga…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 15:06:10 +1200

Punned it...
The law is a tool box
Point taken, it's just at times it seems more of a toy box
(I see one of my local legal clients has just been struck off for creative interpretations of process...)
...my mistake for confusing and conflating the concepts
of Jurisprudence and…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:50:57 +1200

The law is a tool box, and a lawyer uses the tool that is needed to get the relevant job done.

Well, that's true as far as it goes. Can I just note the irony at Mai Chen being quite a high profile media commentator on legal and constitutional issues,…

Robin

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:43:40 +1200

It is hard to reconcile the Mai Chen fighting for the beleaguered underdog Phillipstown School and the Mai Chen writing to shut down a dissenting voice on behalf of a more powerful client....

I think this comment is drawing attention to how the legal tool box is being used.

Could…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:38:19 +1200

The law is a tool box, and a lawyer uses the tool that is needed to get the relevant job done.

I do understand your point, but it does sound a lot like saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people".

A parallel argument could be made in my profession…

Andrew Geddis

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:31:22 +1200

It is hard to reconcile the Mai Chen fighting for the beleaguered underdog Phillipstown School and the Mai Chen writing to shut down a dissenting voice on behalf of a more powerful client....

No. It's not.

The law is a tool box, and a lawyer uses the tool that is…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 14:23:06 +1200

We journalists can be annoying buggers.
It's what the news-consuming public want, if said public bother to think about it. Compliant, complicit, sycophantic "journalists" do your profession a disservice and also do a disservice to a society that requires the media to act as a check on those who stroll…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:58:30 +1200

The response was a heavy letter from Mai Chen on the trust board’s behalf declaring that the claims were “false and defamatory” and demanding that the site remove the statement immediately.
It is hard to reconcile the Mai Chen fighting for the beleaguered underdog Phillipstown School and the Mai Chen…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:35:28 +1200

The response was a heavy letter from Mai Chen on the trust board's behalf declaring that the claims were "false and defamatory" and demanding that the site remove the statement immediately.

Of course it's legal bullying, Russell. It's also really fucking rich coming from the same people who complain __Native…

Public Address

Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:35:28 +1200

Discussion from blog post.