http://www.projo.com/news/content/central_falls_trustees_vote_02-24-10_EOHI83C_v59.3c21342.html

Thanks again for that insight into the Minister's mind. It seems they are using the misleading ERO report as their trump card.

There are some good letters in the latest Listener from educational experts, including one from Ivan Snook deconstructing this report

Indeed, and thanks Hilary. But I wouldn't say…

But leaves out that the original has numerous errors, and displays sub-standard achievement in numeracy and literacy.

That's unpossible.

the ERO report on reading and writing in Years 1 and 2 ...
Whilst this is obviously totally anecdotal, to me it indicates the shallowness of reducing a review of our education system to the sum of one statistic.

The ERO report indeed deserves more attention, good to come back to…

WTF does "succeed" mean in this context?

Looking the same as an Act voter (clue: wealthy, mainly white, overwhelmingly smug and doltish). OK, I'll go to t'other thread.

She feels there is a…

Hang on, who said the top 5% are necessarily privileged?

I thought someone might ask. By being identified as "gifted"

Knocked out a quick summary of some of the more obvious flaws in the looney-tunes Roy paper. Feel free to carry it on here.

The provider would only be funded two-thirds of the cost of the child's course, with the final third paid as a performance bonus when the child succeeded.

Well that is an incentive to get every kid achieving isn't it. Who wouldn't tick the box to get the bonus now?? "…

Apart from the overall weirdness of it all, what about the cost of transport: to the environment and for the parents?

Doesn't Auckland get clogged up enough…

The provider would only be funded two-thirds of the cost of the child's course, with the final third paid as a performance bonus when the child succeeded.

Okay, I think I've got past the incoherent swearing. If I get sent to do somebody's supermarket shopping with only 2/3 of what…

Yeah, right. I'm sure that'll all work smoothly, and not cause any disruption at all.

Also, everyone will get a pony.

It's like a card game where you get dealt your hand and then pass three cards onto the person to your left and then wonder what you're getting from…

Why should the already privileged 5% get more privileges?

Hang on, who said the top 5% are necessarily privileged?

There is a Special Education Review underway led by Roy. This voucher/even more transport required plan does not appear to be part of that consultation. And how would it fit in with Tolley's standards implementation process? Do all those children who don't meet the standards get pushed…

She said the top, gifted children and the bottom, worst-performing children

What a bloody stupid proposition. So, we will see this top 5% chauffeured to Auckland Grammar and the bottom 20% put on a bus to some already over-crowded school? Why should the already privileged 5% get more privileges?

What…

I thought brokers were only useful for arranging insurance or buying and selling uranium shares.

I'd like to know what the working group were smoking when they formulated this policy.

She said the top, gifted children and the bottom, worst-performing children would be able to switch between schools during the school day for different subjects ...

The working party report says there should be an eight-step initiative where the top 5 per cent of pupils and the bottom 20 per…

Top 5% and bottom 20%, I think we've found the first attemp at excluding kids from schools in order to achieve the 80% rate that a normal distribution of ability would fail to do.

A new market in…

One of the main targets of Lanier's critique is the concept of the "wisdom of the crowds" or the…

I thought it was an interesting story, but not well written/told.

True. Given that you can read both books ('freakonomics', and 'gang leader') and never find out exactly what happens to JT or his lieutenants, it's a rather frustrating 'story'. But for me, the wealth of incidental detail more than…

"poor dishevelled Deborah"

Why would you take cheap shots at her appearance when her column is such a target rich environment?

I did enjoy one of the spin-offs – Sudhir Venkatesh's 'Gang Leader for a Day'. If you liked 'the wire', you'll probably enjoy it.

I thought it was an interesting story, but not well written/told.

Isn't looking at the data in different ways what stats guys and economists are meant to be doing anyway? If there's something in the data that seems anomolous, you go looking for the reason, rather than ignoring it, right?

You can see how that approach might be news to [[http://publicaddress.net/system/topic,2324,hard-news-the-death-of-evidence.sm?p=153124#post153124|"poor…

Without even getting into how the concrete reality that follows Key's wonderful feelings, as charted by Brash and his taskforce, involves dismantling social welfare.

Just like it's a gut feeling that tells Pauline Hanson that foreigners are destroying "Australian" "culture" to such a degree that it's unrecoverable. Despite all evidence…

Late last year Steven Pinker pwned Gladwell

Thank you for that Russell!

Igon value ... snort

Smart economists know emotions matter, sometimes more than facts. Not all of them, of course. Reserve Bank governor Allan Bollard is austere like Brown. Based on the figures, he says this country is never going to close the wealth gap with Australia and we should content ourselves…

That's like describing War and Peace as a novel about Napoleon's successful invasion of Russia.

TLDR

Brown no doubt embraces the maxim "comment is free but facts are sacred" but it is not a binary equation. That's why economics has gone from being solely about crunching numbers to including everyday questions about what makes people tick. Just look at the influence of…

I suppose when you value feelings so much

I doubt it has much to do with valuing feelings, it has more to do with valuing minimum effort and knocking off work early.

I would carry on this line of thought, but I cannot be bothered. Instead, I want you all to imagine how angry I feel.

And in context, should we mention how hurtful the title of the piece is?

Indeed. Hadn't occurred to me when I first looked at it.

But the bit about autism is offensive rubbish.

No kidding. And in context, should we mention how hurtful the title of the piece is?

To me she sounds simply lazy. She is ignorant of the knowledge gained in the field thus far and rather than do some work (heaven forfend) she decides to listen to the feelings of the general…

This bit is gold:

Many executives are geniuses at suppressing their emotions and pride themselves on looking at cold hard facts. This can lead them to…

She wants us to accept that no one knows anything, because then no policy is really valid, meaning that the only way forward is a highly deregulated society (and economy) where everyone from the CEO to the factory worker…

There are some good letters in the latest Listener from educational experts, including one from Ivan Snook deconstructing this report (and another from Gordon D)

I…

But it's no way to find anything out; when you have a very wide range of people who contribute without looking carefully at [a problem], you don't improve your knowledge of the situation by averaging.

source

Feynman was…

Can't we just let our feelings guide us through major policy changes?

MY FAVOURITE STANDARDS STORY

In China to qualify for university, students have to sit an entrance exam and achieve at least a 70 percent pass mark in all core subjects.

A few years, Chinese student Jack Ma was brilliant in speaking English. He…

You quite rightly ask: Who reviews the reviewers? Do the ERO make their data accessible for alternate intepretation?

ERO is an interesting animal. Before they come, they tell you what it is they are focusing on, and you have to fill out a questionnaire about your practises around that focus.…

The ERO report (which I totally happened to have open) says:

In contrast [to the 70% who are doing well], the remaining 30 percent of teachers had little or no sense of how critical it was for children to develop confidence and independence in early reading and writing. These…

a classic false binary distortion – all better than 'adequate' are elevated to excellent, while 'adequate' and the ?10% worse than that are all implicitly condemned, and the message taken, as intended, is that 30% of teachers are useless.

The ERO report (which I totally happened to have open) says:

In…

So you think literacy depends on a series of tests after someone gets to school rather than what happens before they get to school?

Of course not. But there has been a clear failure with respect to my daughter's literacy, and I'm very, very tired of the school side-stepping…

Well, I'm not a journalist either

Obviously not, that was far too thorough.

a classic false binary distortion – all better than 'adequate' are elevated to excellent, while 'adequate' and the ?10% worse than that are all implicitly condemned, and the message taken, as intended, is that 30% of teachers are useless.

.. and that's frankly fucking evil of them to distort the…

NZ Book Council – Going West:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_jyXJTlrH0

Modest turnout of 50 or so, including a good few teachers. She gave a presentation emphasising the problems –
– The long tail of 20% leaving school without sufficient literacy and numeracy to function in a modern…

www.itj.edu.mx

Today's edition has an interesting online story and videoclips on how children in some developing countries are now learning English through both…

the former "Aim Hi" programme

Pendant McGee says: I think there was a problem with this programme from the outset. (Oh wait, Google tells me it's actually an acronym of sorts: Achievement in Multicultural High Schools. AIMHI. In that case, I will allow it.)

I am quite interested in this…

Qualifications Authority data shows that the gains vary widely. Pass rates have stayed under 30 per cent at some decile one schools, such as Southern Cross in Mangere and Otara's Sir Edmund Hillary Collegiate.

At the other extreme, the most dramatic lift among…

So you think literacy depends on a series of tests after someone gets to school rather than what happens before they get to school?

I'm fairly sure that's not the bit they were calling bullshit on. But to consider that literacy would depend on the single variable of parent-child…

No replies so far to my belief that our literacy rate does not depend on tests AFTER you get to school, but what happens BEFORE kids get to school – so we are defining the wrong problem, and therefore the wrong solution.

I call bullshit on that.

So you think…

Anecdata, I know. But that's a large part of the problem for many parents. We can get information about how our child is doing compared to what they should be doing for their age, but it's bloody difficult to get information about whether our children are reaching their potential.

With…

I hope your meeting went well in the terms…

You could always ask her that question as well, but the main thing from my perspective would be to get her talking about how they propose to use the test data to improve education,…

I know the simple…

Oh, and Jack, we share a similar hand-writing history.

6 primary schools is wot I done. Printing at one (using pencil) , italics (fountain pen), cursive (pencil), printing again(ballpoint), .......get my drift......I now print scribble that gets more and more indecipherable......

Thank Dog for keyboards!! I have diarrhea now....

Miss Eight the Elder does fine with maths, 'though she doesn't seem to have the intuitive grasp of how numbers fit together that Miss Eight the Younger has. So there could be something going on to do with the maths / reading split discussed in those studies.

I've…

numeracy-romancer

Nu-romancer, perhaps?

We decided early on that…

We've got a similar dynamic going on here. Mr 8 is reading a paperback…

The answer was a good one. The school has a new deputy principal, who is responsible for Science, and for Evaluation, meaning making sure that each student is being…

Have you tried Speld and a child psychologist?…

Then there were the teachers who ignored my concerns about my daughter's reading, telling me that she was achieving what was needed for a child of her age.

It's even worse when your child clearly isn't achieving at their age level, and yet all their reports and teacher-parent meetings clearly…

During Post-Grad Dip (yes in Business... Ok, so I'm a capitalist – shoot me) having been…

Be an introvert who loathes group work, a child who asks quirky questions, a child who is doing work she "shouldn't be doing yet", a kid who really doesn't give a damn about sport, and there are problems.

Hey, that was me.
I also aced all my tests but one,…

As it happens this was correct, and I've been touch-typing since I was…

1. What extra resourcing (money and time) is going into teaching and learning for those children who don't achieve the standard? Is it more than the already announced amount which…

Education is a partnership though between school, home and the wider community and sometimes teachers feel the greater burden of blame is placed on them when in fact they are doing their best.

This is cross-threading, but I hope you didn't take my comment on the 1, 2, 3 thread…

We do want the best results for the children we teach and our expectations are always high.

sometimes teachers feel the greater burden of blame is placed on them when in fact they are doing there best.

Really? All of the teaching profession are like that?

The trouble is, I…

I definitely agree that parents can help, and their absence of support can hinder. But a loaded round of blaming does nobody any good.

I think sometimes as teachers we are guilty of this, probably born more out of frustration than anything else. We do want the best results for…

Some people just learn differently and take a while to get there, and some just reach the level they get too and don't get past that.…

No replies so far to my belief that our literacy rate does not depend on tests AFTER you get to school, but what happens BEFORE kids get to school – so we are defining the wrong problem, and therefore the wrong solution.

I call bullshit on that. One of my…

I do have to admit that choo-choo train academy would be pretty awesome

Oh, I think children's literature teaches us otherwise.

In fact, it turns out that Tootle may be quite instructive to the current debate.

why not favour granting vouchers

Practical rather than principled on this. I am given to understand that vouchers have not worked any more than these 'standards' have where they have been tried overseas. Again, no refs.

I note the example "Plunket graph" in the*National Party* pamphlet assumes that no child starts school at the beginning of year 1 more than "just below standard" but as the years go by there is great scope for them to fall "well below standard".

Also, looking at the graph...what happens…

If you agree that each of us has a different learning style and (hopefully) has a talent to be great at something, why not favour granting vouchers to allow you to c your dream and apply your talents ) whether they be in sport, music, journalism art or whatever?

How…

And Gordon – on the shortest, most pertinent point in your long post –

2. No replies so far to my belief that our literacy rate does not depend on tests AFTER you get to…

Heh, in fact, Language Log eviscerates Orwell:

Maybe Orwell was trying to entangle rival writers into an obsession with petty grammar as a form of gamesmanship.

So, should I go?

You really should. Pick a ripe question or two from those raised in this discussion, and sock it to her!

So, should I go?

Please do, Chris – I doubt you'll be expected to say much but what you experience can sure help others be better prepared.

I'd ask how these 'standards' achieve the results Tolley claims for them – and quote her published words about that in your question…

"Brevity is ... wit"

Brevity is ... wot?

Thinking of the riches of language, James Joyce was never short of a word nor hesitant about inventing a new one. I sure would hate to read the short word version of Ulysses. I once read what I thought was Moby Dick…

Jeremy Andrew – this applies to cartoons.

How ironic, I stole it from the Simpsons :-)

"LIFTING EDUCATION STANDARDS

Come and talk to Hon Anne Tolley, your local MP, about…

But Orwell has a point too,…

There's enough blood on her hands (she thinks) to render those green northern seas (they can also look that colour far south) red – and it is an especial hue of red. Fitted to blood.

Shakespeare mixes it up

So, Orwell writes "it is generally assumed", which is passive. Why didn't he say "people generally assume", or "we generally assume", both of which are perfectly grammatical, are one word shorter, and are not passive?

Annnd, there a such a *huuuuge* number of words for which there is no 'everyday English equivalent' AT ALL.

I recently had a cast removed…

If it is possible to cut out a word, always cut it out.

Whoop! Whoop! Irony alert!

• Never use a metaphor, simile or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.

• Never use a long word where a short one will do.

• If it is possible to cut out a word, always cut it out.

• Never use the passive…

my Spanish sounds a lot like a character from an Almodovar film

Heh. My (almost non-existent) Spanish sounds like a bad Hollywood western for the same reason.

Esto es un robo! Arriba las manos!

Perhaps not the most useful phrases when enjoying a relaxing holiday in the Catalonian sun

1. Shakespeare's vocabulary: who knows.? Bill Bryson, one of my great role models for simplicity in writing, in his wonderful book "The Mother Tongue and how it got that way", quotes many sources to show…

And this is what I love about PAS- as Sacha said earlier, 'we get there'
and your comment is so apposite: we learn best when we love…

But it's fairly useless for a lot of everyday conversation, because that will be slangy & colloquial, and have a lot of in-referents.

Agreed! Written and spoken language are usually quite different. For speaking I'd advise getting DVDs and wearing out the pause, play, and rewind buttons, and saying the lines…

The millionth word was, wait for it, 'Web 2.0'. Arggghhhh!

The BBC report says, that due to the existence of a review board, French only has 100,000 words. Sacre bleu! That's two down, 99,998 to go.

And George D – indeed. But it's fairly useless for a lot of…

Shakespeare's vocabularly was approx. 21,000 words

It probably helps if you make some up as you go..

Gordon adds: The European Community research indicates very similar. The fact that 2000 words make up 87 or 90% of most spoken English, Spanish, French, Italian or German should not be taken as 100%. The other 10% will vary, depending on the specific usage. (ie, tourists visiting England and finding…

A small but important point: according to Melvin Bragg's "The Adventure of English" (tv), Shakespeare's vocabularly was approx.…

Be interested to see what would happen if vouchers were applied to support services for disabled and older New Zealanders, though – closer to a real market, and one in dire need of…

it has a market running underneath it

Bearing in mind Russell's observation, there is another important problem with this way of thinking about the education system.

To the extent that such a market might exist, it would not be anything like an idealised free market. This is because there is…

But this is the problem. That is emphatically not what the ministry experts believe they're doing with our standards system. Schrager explicitly says that's a failed idea and any attempt to do it would be "damaging".

But as you're noting Russell, there's a big story in the chasm between "why…

Shakespeare's plays use around 16,000 words

Which I remember reading was twice as much as anyone else at the time – no refs though, and as always I'm expecting correction if that's wrong.

No grade averages shown, so a handy device to verify quals or steal identities.

I know we have rights to certain information, but we also have rights to keep certain information private, don't we?
Can anyone view my daughters school results if they wish, under an official information act request?

My understanding is that results like this can be made public, if they can't…

In my former life as an EFL, TEFLA, EAP, TESOL, CAE, CPE, IELTS, TOEFL, ELF teacher (did I miss anything?) we used University Word Lists, or Academic Word…

In the process they played an incredible part in helping parents of pre-school youngsters not only develop a love of reading but to…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG6UI5BmhuA

sorry, I seem to be in a teeshirt mood

And on one memorable occasion, he got put in a video project with three cool kids, who slacked off and didn't…

I'm thinking it's been a long time since you did group assessment in a scholastic environment.>

I would probably be right in saying that I don't think I did any group learning in any of my education settings let alone assessment. I'm too old! But my point was, experience as…

aiming for the smallest possible vocabulary size

But that way we can measure the words. Mmmm, standards.

And most of the online programmes give a totally unrealisitic assessment of online learners. So the unfortunates come to ANZ and cant speak diddlysquat.

Very funny not, Gordon- 2000 words gives you the most basic communication, and pretty well every ANZer will use considerably more in almost any(let alone lengthy) conversation.

I always find attempts to define English as a set of most useful words silly, because they end up making the whole language…

Does the query imply that people have been commenting on the party policy without reading it? Tut tut.

No, because the query was my first post in this thread.

Which would tend to imply that I'm intending to read it before I comment on it, no?

I admire your earnest hustling.
I despise anyone who emulates it.

When them European Economic Community was formed, it surveyed the most-common words in all its main languages. That is where the 2000-most-common-spoken words statistics emerged.

That's why the most-used European second-language programmes (including English) are based around embedding those 2000…

I am sure that the Italian Government has printed her face on money because she is regarded as a great Italian innovator.

That is correct. And it's worth mentioning that the 1,000 lire note was the basic unit of currency before the Euro, like the one dollar note in the…

if the Montessori method is so good, why isn't everyone using it?

Simple answer: Most early-childhood development programs include elements of Montessori, in New Zealand elements of "PlayCentre" and many more, including some of the NZ methods of Sylvia Ash to-Warner and Beeby.

Sweden's great early childhood development…

no hopers in groups riding on the "success" of the others

Learning how to cope with that dynamic is essential preparation for life and work. After all, our ambitious leader tells us:

New Zealand simply can’t afford a future where 20 percent of our workforce does not have the skills…

The fact that one or two of a group seem to not contribute "equally" does not mean they have not contributed value.

I'm thinking it's been a long time since you did group assessment in a scholastic environment.

And it's expensive.

Sorry, but how is it expensive? Is it because there is a greater demand than there is supply? Or is the methodology protected by licensing fees?

And it's expensive.

It's so expensive in fact that in Italy they printed Maria Montessori's face directly onto the money. It was easier that way.

if the Montessori method is so good, why isn't everyone using it?

As with Steiner, I am rather hesitant about basing an entire educational philosophy on one perception (or the ideas of one guru) about learning.

Given the input from all the above, I think that there are grounds for…

Short answer: it works really well for some children, not so well for others.

And it's expensive. I was fortunate enough to be sent to a Montessori kindy, and it worked extremely well for me. It had no discernible effect on my brother.

if the Montessori method is so good, why isn't everyone using it?

Short answer: it works really well for some children, not so well for others.

"2000 words make up most of spoken English" – WHERE? Again, I'm very well…

I think what is being said is that they start by running a fashion show and then have to do the costings (maths) and write the script, presumably first in English (reading/writing) and then ...

Essentially it's learning the boring stuff by stealth.

Bart: Partly right in your…

if the Montessori method is so good, why isn't everyone using it?

Because you have to pay extra for it? As with Steiner, I am rather hesitant about basing an entire educational philosophy on one perception (or the ideas of one guru) about learning. For example, I can't fathom the…

TL:DR (too long, didn't read)

Always wondered what that meant. See, learning all the time..

The fact that Google's developers were Montessori students is very interesting. But just to be difficult I want to ask this: if the Montessori method is so good, why isn't everyone using it?

There's a time and place.

I don't think it's all group work.

I'm having a quiet day, Cecilia, so here goes, starting with maths:

1. it all depends how Cecilia learns best.

2. Some of us are strong visual…

My sons always moaned about group work at Waikato because as reasonably responsible types they often had to keep a group going and then the slackers got rewarded…

I'd want my little Susie to read and write and do maths too. Can all that be taught in group projects?

I think what is being said is that they start by running a fashion show and then have to do the costings (maths) and write the script, presumably first…

Seriously Emma? It isn't just an n=1 problem? Cause if that's true it says something interestingly weird about either English or Sign in their ability to communicate numeracy.

Well, not according to various ITODs and facilitators I've spoken to, although there does seem to be a tendency to say 'this…