"The current focus on problems caused by alcohol in New Zealand occurs in a…

Alison Ritter did not create the AFP Drug Harm Index. That was McFadden and Mwesigye.

She is associated with the Drug Policy Modelling Program at the University of New South Wales — which is the Index we should have had.

But thanks for leading me to [[http://www.issdp.org/lisbon2008_public/Allison_ritter_paper2ndISSDPpdf.pdf|this…

No, the Herald story today is based on selected parts (ie: the parts the police wanted to give them) of a report that isn't published.

Yes, very sorry about that time-wasting comment.

Would the Herald play that sort of game with any other government agency?

Could the answer be . .…

i wonder how difficult it is for mr anderton to understand this simple statement of fact, which can be backed up with much more convincing data and arguments than the bogus "harm index".

despite prohibition and the exorbidant financial and social costs caused by prohibition (not the…

The White House had the National Research Council [www.nationalacademies.org/nrc/] examine the data being gathered about drug use and the effects of U.S. drug policies. NRC concluded, "the nation possesses little information about the effectiveness of current drug policy, especially of drug law enforcement." And what data exist…

No where does teh report measure teh benifits of illicit drugs either..

Apparently it doesn't improve typing ;)

This BERL DRUG HARM report is absolute evidence that Accountants should stay away from Drugs.

I would have put them top of my list for people who need them actually.

It is yet to be explained by either NZ's Drug Intel community, or the poiticians who pander to 'drug fears' why 515 Professors of Economics including 3 Nobel Laureates say the 'cost/benefits' of prohibition has…

Maybe I should take up smoking dope. I mean, if nothing else gets me in the next 812,533 years, I'd rather die of being stoned than from the sun exploding?

How does it work out if you're stoned and then the sun explodes?

I'm sure that happened to me once.

And lets face it.. with a lot of drugs people consume them because the WANT to, not because they have to.

i.e. pot, e, bzp etc.

I could, according to this “logic”, spend $500,000 protecting my house from being attacked by pterodactyls, and then conclude that pterodactyls are extremely “harmful” because of the enormous cost of protection against them.

nice, i'm gonna use that.

The primary problem with the methodology of the NZDHI is the inclusion of the costs of prohibition into overall social harm costs of illicit drugs. These costs (Customs, Police,…

I'd also be grateful if anyone who feels there are methodological or technical flaws in the index could explain them in some detail.

Tomorrow.

But in short:
– the assumption that all inputs associated with the production of drugs are not economically useful underlies the whole "study". We don't make…

Couple of things.

The first is that its a tragedy that the Drug Foundation was initially informed but then not included in the development of the index. A proper harm index would be enormously helpful in two way

1. in placing different substances…

This still leaves us with an index which is limited, and it would have been great if all drug policy agencies (cops, customs, health...) worked jointly on…

I'd also be grateful if anyone who feels there are methodological or technical flaws in the index could explain them in some detail. It will come in handy next week ...

I'm happy to make a start, but I'm sure someone more expert can elaborate.

My main query is why…

As I know Russell wants to encourage public figure like Anderton to engage in this forum, this recovering alcoholic will (for once) bite his tongue and play nice.

Hey, don't go too far ...

Hmmm ...

Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the Mad Hatter's tea party.

I am certainly pleased to have a fair, independent estimate of how much harm in dollar terms. And I think anyone who doesn’t want to know how much harm drugs cause is not interested in knowing about the harm…

I think there is something published, I saw it on the NORMLNZ forums last night . . .

No, the Herald story today is based on selected parts (ie: the parts the police wanted to give them) of a report that isn't published. Would the Herald play that sort of…

An index helps us to decide the relative harm of each drug – so we have a good basis for comparing regulatory responses. For example, cannabis is less harmful than P, which is why cannabis is a class C drug, and P is a class…

Reviewing it as someone who works in mental mealth, in addictions and from a harm minimisation model, I agree Russell, spectacularly useless, but worringly it also seems shoddy and internally inconsitent.

The ratings that jumped out at me were the high…

I agree, and wish – from both a personal and a normlnz perspective – that more…

Actually, despite my misgivings about the methodology and some of the assumptions informing the modeling, I don't think this is "bogus". I do think it's partial, but it's damn sight better than "just say no".

Sure, but that's setting a pretty low bar, innit?. As purported statistical research, this report…

What a fucking disgrace! I'd like someone to quantify (in dollar terms, natch) the social cost of bogus public policy "research" driven by self-interest and unfounded assumptions.

Actually, despite my misgivings about the methodology and some of the assumptions informing the modeling, I don't think this is "bogus". I do…

They just about damn well disappear if you remove the rather dubious "harm" of "productive resources diverted due to drug production", which is the largest cost quoted in the index.
....

If you add in revenue loss from not taxing currently illegal drugs...

I think that some illegal drug revenue…

...and are commissioning our own peer review of the index.

That's good to hear Ross. I do wonder what impact this will have in the short term i.e. this budget cycle (and I'm sure you're aware of the seductive power of international benchmarking), but it's only through…

The NZ Herald's 'Have your say' is 6 pages of interesting comments
http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/your-views/2008/6/24/war-drugs-worth-fighting/?c_id=181#message

The Police are at it again, this time showing pot admissions to hospital.

Grrrr. Why are they feeding selected parts of this report to the Herald but not publishing it?

Is it just my imagination, but did the Herald change the headline of yesterday's report online?

Yep, they did:

From "$1.3b drugs bill we're all paying" to " Drug use cost NZ society $1.3 bn, index shows"

For the record, I was interviewed about this last night by the NZ Herald, and pointed out that the Police illegal drug harm index showed pot-related hospital costs were lower than those for opiates and speedy…

The police aren't interested in optimising the level of resources committed to policing. They're interested in maximising it. Hence, studies like this.

That may be the case with this study, but not always the case. I've heard senior police officers talk with frustration about how politicians always promise XXX new…

................ as for young people being unable to score pot.

Maybe the tinny shop might offer them some…

Those things for sale.. they aren't vases..

Yeah, because using a bong just instantly makes it safe to inhale the fumes from burning shit, right? No matter how you do it, smoking stuff is bad for your lungs. Bongs filter some stuff, but a very quick hunt around found several…

Those things for sale.. they aren't vases..

Mikee – drug paraphernalia is illegal, and consequently Bad. I'm sure people bear that in mind and use legal rizlas instead.

Jim Anderton said alcohol was “far and away” our most destructive drug.

He is at least consistent on this. He said (in an email to a friend) that "if I could ban alcohol, I would". I wonder if the drinkers in his constituency are aware of this strict temperance stance,…

"Jim Anderton said alcohol was “far and away” our most destructive drug.

This occurred to me too. I actually know former problem drinkers and alcoholics who now content themselves with a social toke. By any reasonable measure, harm has been greatly reduced, but there's no way of modelling that here.

Use = Abuse! Use = Abuse! (Repeat as necessary until power of…

Those things for sale.. they aren't vases..

a value on whether Johnny would be happier if he didn't do drugs.

I just liked the line so repeated for the hell of it.I hear a tune coming along :-)

Say marijuana was legal to grow and sell, and taxed to keep the price roughly the same as today,…

There seems to be a trend already away from smoking cannabis. Vapour and more refined versions of cannabutter in particular.

IF it were to beccome decriminalised I can only see this increasing, as people…

As I said in another thread, sure tobacco costs waaaaaay more than pot in terms of cancers and other illnesses, but that's because pot isn't used as widely. Remove the legal sanctions on its consumption, and watch the related harm figures soar.

Actually, no.

The drug use survey by the…

Oh, so you want to argue on semantics? In which case, which method of tobacco consumption? Chewing? Snorting?
When one talks of consuming tobacco, for most the first thought is a cigarette. Similarly, a joint is the first thought for most when discussing pot. Sorry if I didn't make myself…

Given though that Treasury are part of the reference group for the study, they seem to be happy with the methodology which, they will surely have known, leads in only one direction.

Surely this is an important question when considering optimimum levels of resourcing for Policing?

The police aren't interested in optimising the level of resources committed to policing. They're interested in maximising it. Hence, studies like this.

Matthew compared cannabis to tobacco, not a joint to a cigarette. Comparing a cigarette to a joint is about as useful as comparing either of those to the kg of LSD mentioned in the report.

Oh, so you want to argue on semantics? In which case, which method of tobacco…

I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.

I think that is the correct conclusion, unfortunately.

I think an equally likely explanation is that Police believe they need more resources and this is a way to wedge government (I've had…

Assuming BERL are exactly right (BIG assumption, I know), and say the harm per kilo of cannabis works out at $11,790. Pro rata that for a one gram $20 tinnie, and it's less mark-up than petrol, booze and ciggies already gets stung with.

Thank you, cops, for…

The analysis that shows (smoked) marijuana to be more harmful than tobacco contrasts a joint with a cigarette – the carcinogen level of the joint is around 20-30 times (don't quote me) that of the cigarette, etc. (in part caused by the lack of filters in a joint).

That was…

The analysis that shows (smoked) marijuana to be more harmful than tobacco contrasts a joint with a cigarette – the carcinogen level of the joint is around 20-30 times (don't quote me) that of the cigarette, etc. (in part caused by the lack of filters in a joint).

Couldn't resist…

"Road no one will be able to afford to use cost NZ society $1.025 billion, study shows"

I reckon it's time for a study into the social harm caused by one particular highly addictive drug: oil.

Aren't we measuring 'social harm' rather than impact on the treasury balance?

No, it's looking at the economy as a whole, which is broader than the impact on government finances but narrower than trying to put a value on whether Johnny would be happier if he didn't do drugs.

Say…

[pot is] demonstrated to be physically more harmful than tobacco

Hi Matthew. Care to show some evidence for this? The Lancet report I mentioned above estimates that the physical harm from tobacco is higher.

My guess is that you're both right (or, I suppose, both wrong).

The analysis that shows…

If you add in revenue loss from not taxing currently illegal drugs...

Aren't we measuring 'social harm' rather than impact on the treasury balance? Though I think it's clear the former means whatever you want it to.

On which:

Do all those enforcement agents actually help the GDP – keeping people…

I do wonder what would happen if pot were, at the least, decriminalised and thus its use became a lot more prevalent. It's demonstrated to be physically more harmful than tobacco

Hi Matthew. Care to show some evidence for this? The Lancet report I mentioned above estimates that the physical…

Quite dishonest, actually.

Also the kind of shit that does — or should — get academics and journalists fired. Not surprised you didn't hear about it, Matthew, because IMNSHO it wasn't reported as widely or prominently as it should have been. Idiot/Savant is right, the Office of the Ombudsmen is…

As I said in another thread, sure tobacco costs waaaaaay more than pot in terms of cancers and other illnesses, but that's because pot isn't used as widely. Remove the legal sanctions on its consumption, and watch the related harm figures soar.

yes – but people have spent a…

I mean is there a part of StatisticsNZ that does a monthly street price survey?

It's only done annually, and not by StatisticsNZ. The report covers, pricing, availability, number of current users etc.

A kilogram of LSD would be pretty damaging, yes.

The Herald report — surprise! — left off half the sentence from the report. The full quote is:

LSD is the most damaging drug per kilogram, at $1.05 billion per kilogram, but due to the small amount used it causes little…

http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/prohibition_and_drugs.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/war_we_are_losing.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/stop_taxing_non.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/an_open_letter_to_bill_bennett.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/bennett_fears_.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Misc/friedm1.htm
http://www.druglibrary.org/special/friedman/socialist.htm

Damaging...probably.

Interesting...definately!

I haven't fisked the whole thing yet, but if you take the costs of prohibition out of their numbers, they reduce hugely.

They just about damn well disappear if you remove the rather dubious "harm" of "productive resources diverted due to drug production", which is the largest cost quoted in…

"* The most damaging drug per kilogram was LSD, which cost more than $1.05 billion a kg"

A kilogram of LSD would be pretty damaging, yes.

As I said…

That the report does not include tobacco and alcohol says to me that, maybe, the report contained these figures originally but when you looked at the figures the police could only say "See, we are wasting your money chasing pot heads, we have far bigger problems to deal with"

When…

after the taser trail report debacle

Oh, oh, scandal? Didn't hear about that one. Or are you just talking about how it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they would be recommended, and the trial was mostly a façade?

The Ombudsman gave the police a serious lashing for cherry-picking…

after the taser trail report debacle

Oh, oh, scandal? Didn't hear about that one. Or are you just talking about how it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that they would be recommended, and the trial was mostly a façade?

There's a line between 'open to debate' and 'utter, dishonest bullshit', and the Police can't afford to be on the wrong side of it when making allegedly serious public policy arguments or effectively lobbying for legislation.

Surely though that's their modus operandi?

I am really disappointed with the police. Given the stats that they themselves declare – circa 80% of violent crime is related to alcohol – I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.

Mikaere: Rightly or wrongly (possibly the latter,…

"Road no one will be able to afford to use cost NZ society $1.025 billion, study shows"

includes Methamphetamine AND Ecstasy, and nowhere are harm figures broken down between the two.

I haven't read the Herald yet (it's my lunchtime reading material), but the headline and opening line on the website caught my eye. Apparently E is a hard-core drug, and was listed alongside a bunch of…

homosexuality was deemed the most damaging harm, 8 shillings more harmful per kilo than milkbars.

What's that converted into grams of well-aged Stilton?

I can only conclude that the knowingly set the brief for this report clearly with PR in mind.

I think that is the correct conclusion, unfortunately.

If that isn't politically driven socialist crap nothing is.

I don't think socialists have a monopoly on this kind of authoritarianism, just look at the US War on Drugs.

I am really disappointed with the police. Given the stats that they themselves declare – circa 80% of violent crime is…

Any drug harm index that does not include alcohol and tobacco is useless,…

And we're left with an index that is spectacular but fairly useless in policy terms.

Would I be far too cynical in suggesting that there's an event that has to happen on one Saturday before the middle of November that might be marginally more pertinent here? And God only knows…