Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Sorting out our thinking on drugs

Rich of Observationz

Sat, 12 Sep 2015 11:46:41 +1200

There's still a big hypocritical gap, even amongst educated professionals. It's ok to have paracetamol (quite risky, high incidence of accident and suicide deaths, limited treatment, low therapeutic index) sold in supermarkets to deal with a hangover, but not MDMA, which is of at least comparable risk, because it's just…

Josh Helpful

Fri, 11 Sep 2015 22:14:28 +1200

I have always thought that it helps in English speaking countries that the word "drugs" is also the word for medicine. In the Netherlands where I live we use the word drugs for everything illegal and criminal and the word medicine (medicijn) for the legal distribution. I believe it helps…

BenWilson

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 12:48:17 +1200

I want to see drug use decriminalised but I’m also fine with the state having a regulatory role the way way it does with the food we eat.

A regulatory role, sure. But this regulatory role, no. I'm very much not fine with that.

I’ve always been pretty clear that…

Russell Brown

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 12:16:42 +1200

That a whole lot of really intelligent people didn’t is actually astonishing. I guess the genius was the allure of “incremental” policy. It sound soooo scientific, so reasonable.

I do understand your argument, but I’ve always been pretty clear that the PSA on its own and as it stands was…

BenWilson

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 10:55:26 +1200

Seize on suspicion, test.

The time, effort, and cost required to do this are considerable. Which means it is likely that only those who are in possession of quantities for supply, or who have other already illegal drugs, would be tested and then charged.

Yes, it's quite simple. With respect…

Russell Brown

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 09:58:58 +1200

I've posted some info on maximum penalties relating to synthetic cannabinoids once they're de-approved on the new thread.

George Darroch

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 09:18:58 +1200

Seize on suspicion, test.

Craig Young

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 08:53:52 +1200

Presumably by relying on existing pharmacological guidelines about psychoactive or toxicological properties, Rich? If they exist?

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 08:28:37 +1200

How will the cops/customs prove a random substance found in someone's possession is psychoactive?

George Darroch

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 08:17:28 +1200

It’s interesting that Dunne is the only one from the government fronting this.

It will be to keep distance on this between the Government and the issue.

It occurs to me that if you’re an actual illegal drug dealer selling marijuana and/or other drugs, then you’re going to see a…

nzlemming

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 07:29:24 +1200

It's interesting that Dunne is the only one from the government fronting this. I wonder if he decided unilaterally to announce it, just to pre-empt Labour, and didn't tell his colleagues until after the event.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 07:24:11 +1200

I can't decide whether to send the bill for a new transistor radio to Dunne or Espiner – patronising pricks!

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 07:01:10 +1200

Most cynical piece of electioneering I’ve seen in a long, long time
True! So Dunne isn't really serving 'the people' is he...
It's like he pulled his head out of the sand, but may have left his brain behind.
Dunne said a "mad rush" to bulk-buy synthetic cannabis before it's…

Virginia Brooks

Mon, 28 Apr 2014 01:11:12 +1200

Thanks Chris for the clarification re manufacturing standards. I see now you are in Beijing, so 'on the ground' so to speak. I got my info from various articles I've read.

re the herbal component : yes, ephedrine. Its a medicinal herb with a long history. It gets a good…

nzlemming

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 21:14:24 +1200

And in the latest update, it now appears clear that Dunne had no plans to make an announcement until Labour sent out a notice about its announcement tomorrow.

Most cynical piece of electioneering I've seen in a long, long time.

Chris Waugh

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 20:49:50 +1200

Sorry, I keep reminding myself to be careful about posting early in the morning, and then....

I'm not sure about your comments on manufacturing standards, though. In China, at least, the problem is often more one of enforcement/corruption than regulations or standards. As for the cultural side of things, it…

Virginia Brooks

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 19:29:38 +1200

re: This will be like when BZP was banned: firesaling, stockpiling, a flood out into the illicit market...

Yes, its an awful mistake to announce the change so far ahead of closing the shops. Everything goes underground again.

Virginia Brooks

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 19:23:43 +1200

re|: Your previous comments have been useful and informative, but this one carries a whiff of the nastier side of Orientalism. I hope I’m misunderstanding you...

Yes, rest easy on the moral panic. You are mis-understanding. I am not hating on the third world or orientalising, casting the third world…

Shulgin

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 18:18:27 +1200

my goodness...is that a car accident?

I really hate pragmatic politicians...because the actual problem is that our useless tax funded MOH, Police and Customs...has no idea,,,,so was always going to be an accident.....waiting to happen...

David Hood

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 18:18:17 +1200

I could see media narratives of either "wounded labour outflanked by government" or "government delays announcing issue affecting nations health for political gain". Of those I am expecting the former.

Either way, the narrative I am not expecting to see is "what is the evidence for this policy"

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 17:46:23 +1200

And in the latest update, it now appears clear that Dunne had no plans to make an announcement until Labour sent out a notice about its announcement tomorrow.

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 17:16:00 +1200

Neither Dunne or Cunliffe is proposing to scrap the Psychoactive Substances Act, just cancel interim approvals.

Labour’s bill.

This will be like when BZP was banned: firesaling, stockpiling, a flood out into the illicit market.

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 17:06:25 +1200

Oh my god. Dunne done did it already:

The Government will ban all synthetic drugs within two weeks until they can be proven to be low-risk, Associate Health Minister Peter Dunne has revealed.

The move comes as Labour plans to announce its own policy on psychoactive substances tomorrow, and follows increasing…

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 16:57:10 +1200

From Cunliffe's Twitter account:

Labour will introduce legislation to remove synthetic cannabis and other psychoactive substances from sale immediately.

How do they propose to ban all psychoactive substances?

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 16:48:55 +1200

David Cunliffe will be announcing "Labour's synthetic cannabis proposal" at 1.30pm tomorrow in Mangere.

This will be interesting.

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 15:26:38 +1200

Methadone 10mg twice a day
Gabapentin – offlabel antiepileptic used for pain relief
Two anti-psychotic medications (doesn’t say which)
An antidepressant – doesn’t say which

Toxic mixture?

Especially methadone with the others. The FDA is very wary about the use of methadone for pain relief.

debunk

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 13:43:11 +1200

www.nzherald.co.nz/news/print.cfm?/objectid=11167932

"Doctors cleared over drug death" listing

amytryptyline
cyclizine
olanzapine
gabapentin
quietapine
methadone

All of these described well in Wikipedia so far as I recall..

debunk

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 13:11:24 +1200

Methadone 10mg twice a day
Gabapentin – offlabel antiepileptic used for pain relief
Two anti-psychotic medications (doesn't say which)
An antidepressant – doesn't say which

Toxic mixture?

debunk

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 13:06:12 +1200

Re clinical use of methadone for pain relief

"Dead woman was on ccktail of drugs – coroner"

www.stuff.co.nz/national/9453769/Dead-woman-was-on-cocktail-of-drugs-coroner

debunk

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:47:39 +1200

Yes Stephen! Aware of that. But also used as a pain medication (as morphine is) as recent home death in Whanganui showed ..with patient given this in hospital by "pain specialist" on top of an assortment of different atypical antipsychotics and off label recent epilepsy drugs now being experiented with…

Chris Waugh

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:30:01 +1200

Too late for the edit: Anyway, it was my impression that poisonings from dodgy booze are more often from methanol contamination than excess ethanol.

Chris Waugh

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 12:00:46 +1200

if you distilled 90% pure ethanol

Apparently quite common in Norway, or at least that small corner of Norway in which I spent the summer of 2000. And yes, only drunk watered down, though often with cider.

BenWilson

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:54:48 +1200

though methanol seems to be the most common cause of alcohol-other-than-ethanol related trouble

Yes, it's usually present in distilled alcohol (because it was present in the original base, whatever that was), and can be separated somewhat by taking the very first small amount of distillate and keeping it separately. The…

debunk

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:40:33 +1200

No, I am referring to the Health Practitioners Competence Assurance Act 2003 which covers a much wider range of "practitioners" than doctors.

Chris Waugh

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 11:32:59 +1200

They come from the same thinking that puts melamine in milk and ethanol in cocktails (as in the cases in Bali, which probably only came to our attention because westerners got hurt).

Ethanol is supposed to be in your cocktails. It's methanol (and presumably other alcohols, though methanol seems to…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:34:21 +1200

Probably contrary to the Act assuring competence and ethical behaviour by registered health professionals ..(can’t recall name of it)..do no harm etc

Do you mean the hippocratic Oath? The dispensaries could be at places like Methadone clinics or Needle exchanges or Pharmacies. These places could better advise of side…

Virginia Brooks

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:23:01 +1200

A data base likes Ramsey's is vital for the information it holds.
The thing is, synthetics are NOT like the old school illicit drugs we grew up with. They represent a cultural shift as much as a pharmacological shift, in both the manufacturing and using.
Most synthetics are manufactured in…

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:13:20 +1200

up all night to get lucky...?
...and powders of unknown providence.
I'd heard that God has amazingly protective pow(d)ers!

But no one knows their provenance either!

:- )

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 10:06:59 +1200

...of course Colorado had Hunter S. Thompson to push the envelope on extreme use – which must have helped skew data and perceptions (literally in his case) and shift the centre of opinions past a tipping point...

interestingly, well cryptically,
Gonzo also shows NZ in the Goo...

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 09:55:32 +1200

Follow the USA re marijuana, as I said earlier and for stimulants we already have lots of Ritalin available on prescription (which students in UK are using for supposed cognitive enhancement as well as stimulant effect)

Ritalin's quite a popular party drug here too. It makes far more sense to…

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 09:50:27 +1200

Colorado, has a different system that we are yet to see unfold. It might go down the same path that our alcohol laws have. Advertising it will make you into something you are never going to be if you use to much of the product.

Colorado's up and running. I…

Virginia Brooks

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 09:42:30 +1200

Are you diss-ing the situation?

Russell Brown

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 09:41:12 +1200

Beta-blockers are a largely obsolete treatment for ordinary hypertension – only indicated for angina risk, nowadays.

No, lots of people are on two-factor treatments for hypertension — an ACE inhibitor and a beta blocker.

debunk

Sun, 27 Apr 2014 02:55:20 +1200

and Legal High dispensaries leading to 'diss order' and 'dis tress' ?

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 22:31:55 +1200

perhaps recreation is
becoming 'wreck creation'
and dispensary leads
to 'dissed penury' ?

...but I'm only exploiting words
not people's dreams/fears...

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 22:29:57 +1200

Just referring to overdue change in attitude towards cannabis in the US ..will broaden and has to be an improvement!

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 21:09:18 +1200

Steven
I think the whole situation is a mess and if any of these products are proved "safe" the retail outlets should not have been set up first ..as a sole trader think it's unfair for small businesses for starters to be encouraged to get stock (however toxic it may…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:17:13 +1200

approved by Pharmac
Which could soon be seriously compromised by the TPPA
The Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA), currently under negotiation, could remove much of Pharmac’s power, and put it in the hands of international drug companies – something that should concern us all. Additionally it will limit key health…

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:12:17 +1200

That's because methadone is a treatment ... not the same as selling a recreational drug not on script ..drugs have to well tested and approved by Pharmac (quality control, safety) to be prescribed and dispensed.

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 20:02:12 +1200

What would you have recommended?

BenWilson

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:37:03 +1200

What I am trying to point out is that cannabis can not be a medication in its raw form.

I give you that it's a much less precise thing when smoked as a plant. But whether that means it can be a medication or not? Pretty much a semantic distinction.…

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:35:25 +1200

"DIspensing"
Probably contrary to the Act assuring competence and ethical behaviour by registered health professionals ..(can't recall name of it)..do no harm etc

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 19:13:52 +1200

Re Beta-blocker for Legal High side effect...

A&E client could apply for "treatment error" then from ACC?

Rich of Observationz

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:58:26 +1200

Beta-blockers are a largely obsolete treatment for ordinary hypertension – only indicated for angina risk, nowadays.

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:54:44 +1200

BenWilson

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 18:07:22 +1200

That's not really answering Russell's question. He wanted to know what you think this means NZ should do.

My answer to that, as Russell ascertained, was that I think the current rules are far too strict, and that things should be relaxed. But that's caveated by "starting with the least…

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 17:01:57 +1200

Dr Ramsey's opinion implies that, for the proposed "clinical trials," these will not be possible with a randomised treatment regime, so how are sellers going to do proper assessments as the Act requires? What will be compared with what? There are just too many unknown unknowns here to measure anything…

BenWilson

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 15:02:57 +1200

Yes, and my understanding is that MDPV is a drug that has an effect much like P, but with a much more rapid decline in response, leading to redosing becoming imperative. Hence the tendency towards overdose.

It could easily be used by a P dealer who wanted to cut product…

Russell Brown

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 14:47:48 +1200

I ask because the former seems like a very hard ask. Virginia’s experience in the A&E mirrors my own, the one time I had to take someone who was in a bad way on synthetic stuff to hospital. They didn’t really care what it was that he had – he even…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 14:35:32 +1200

Nothing about how they took synthetic shit #21235908365749 to take the edge off a bender on P, which they began when they woke up hungover as hell from drinking far too much booze the night before, and caught a cold and had a horrible running nose but can’t buy effective…

Russell Brown

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 13:51:56 +1200

“In comparison with regular drugs, there is hardly any data on the harm these drugs do.”

So what does that imply? We should just give up and let the black market rip? We should re-evaluate the better-understood "old" illicit drugs, like LSD and MDMA? We should try and weed out…

BenWilson

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 13:30:23 +1200

In my experience, if you feel like you could be dying, one gets pretty honest pretty quickly with the professionals

You do, but only if you're actually conscious at the time. But on the flip side, if you don't feel like you're dying, are you going to tell them that…

BenWilson

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 13:17:29 +1200

No-one will do “trials” of these psychoactives because there are too many and changing too fast according to the market.

I understand. So this database is essentially attempting to keep track of effects in the field. It's a very poor substitute for controlled trials, but it might still be the…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 12:41:45 +1200

This is absolutely how I feel, you articulate it so well Ben. In my experience, if you feel like you could be dying, one gets pretty honest pretty quickly with the professionals and in my experience o'seas ,Professionals have seen similar signs present time and time again so there is…

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 12:32:58 +1200

Read the article on the "evidence" and how difficult the whole area is

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/26/hidden-dangers-of-legal-highs

No-one will do "trials" of these psychoactives because there are too many and changing too fast according to the market. I will see what I can find about this unit and the database – tho if…

BenWilson

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 12:24:00 +1200

I could never get my head around smoking dope as any kind of medication, rather than just being a recreational drug.

I can see why some people would want that, but presumably either pills or a vaporizer would be a better way to have it. It would only make sense…

BenWilson

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 11:25:53 +1200

debunk, what is that database used for practically? Is it to actually administer emergency treatment, or for the purposes of future research and maybe policy making? Or both?

I ask because the former seems like a very hard ask. Virginia's experience in the A&E mirrors my own, the one time I…

Virginia Brooks

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 10:28:42 +1200

re: Perhaps you could ask the MoH if it would be possible for them to obtain the TicTac database from the toxicologist Dr Ramsey at St George’s Hospital in London and put it in a smartphone APP for local doctors and hospitals .. since apparently it is “used by law…

Craig Young

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 09:33:27 +1200

On a related matter... People with HIV and other chronic conditions have used prescription marijuana to treat the side effects of medication for decades, but a new study published in the February issue of the journal AIDS Research and Human Retroviruses suggests that daily doses of one component found in…

debunk

Sat, 26 Apr 2014 07:11:31 +1200

Russell
Perhaps you could ask the MoH if it would be possible for them to obtain the TicTac database from the toxicologist Dr Ramsey at St George's Hospital in London and put it in a smartphone APP for local doctors and hospitals .. since apparently it is "used by law…

debunk

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 19:21:17 +1200

There is a database for the Ramsey work at St George's medical school in London..
He is described as a "toxicologist and drug scientist"..

"His organisation, TicTac, produces a database that is used by law enforcement and health professionals to identify mystery pills and powders."

Needs to be available as…

Sacha

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:39:05 +1200

onfigured as a decision support/expert system

sounds ideal

Sacha

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:38:00 +1200

I really liked that Campbell piece, mostly for the user vox-pops. I'd love to see a follow up.

along very similar lines, here's the prequel:
http://www.3news.co.nz/Synthetic-highs-Whats-the-solution/tabid/817/articleID/340383/Default.aspx

debunk

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:21:39 +1200

Virginia
Need something like the Ramsey toxicology database (presuming this accumulated knowledge is going into one – tho appears not from the article) as a smartphone APP for emergency services etc configured as a decision support/expert system. Huge amount of info ( Ramsey "has spent decades collecting more than 27,000…

Sacha

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 18:14:53 +1200

none of this is the answer and no-one should have to 'do a paper'

I hear you.

Virginia Brooks

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 17:06:14 +1200

It would make a great piece of research. I hope you get a chance to do it. Plus its timely research – the synthetics industry is here to stay for the foreseeable future and (I believe) we are still just seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Looking forward to reading…

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 16:49:00 +1200

At present, screeds of valuable data (in the form of untested synthetic substances) is being wasted because it is not systematically collected / collated. We do not even have adequate testing facilities or tests. Its not a good situation. Yes that is true. I do think this is a really…

Russell Brown

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 16:42:04 +1200

What is needed is a way to utilise the knowledge that is already out there + political will + financial means to sustain useful services.

You'll like my story on Erowid et al when it's published (within the next couple of weeks, I think) in the Drug Foundation magazine. And…

Virginia Brooks

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 16:35:59 +1200

Now see, if you did know me better, you would know 'thoughtful of you' was tongue in cheek...

Virginia Brooks

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 16:11:38 +1200

Thoughtful of you, but I am not seeking 'answers' per se. Synthetic LSD use was just one factor in the lead up to my sons death. His situation was complicated by multi-substance drug abuse and mental health issues. There is no conclusive 'answer'. My point in sharing his story was…

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 14:15:56 +1200

I meant you might have to join Uni to get the answers you are looking for. The googling was reference to just that and your apology for sounding ungracious. Nothing more. You could try googling Otago to get the departments that may help you with enquiries. Also if you did…

Virginia Brooks

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 14:02:37 +1200

sorry Sophie, you've lost me on this one:
I was about to type “why are you googling me? :) I understood why you are keen. Hope you find some answers. You may have to go study up yourself, then you could get back to us next year . Take care.…

BenWilson

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 13:57:10 +1200

I really liked that Campbell piece, mostly for the user vox-pops. I'd love to see a follow up. But they struck me as real people with real reasons for their real choice, all of which had been dictated either directly or indirectly, by the guy with the white hair standing…

Sacha

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 13:16:24 +1200

Councils aren't required to have one

Which is not what the Minister has been saying.

Russell Brown

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 13:00:54 +1200

And there’s another fishhook in this that the Ministry needs to sort out quickly. During this interim process retail outlets must remain in the location immediately prior to the law. So even if they wanted to move from the main strip or away from the Naenae shopping mall, they can’t.…

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:48:39 +1200

Its the momma bear in me roaring

I was about to type "why are you googling me? :) I understood why you are keen. Hope you find some answers. You may have to go study up yourself, then you could get back to us next year . Take care.

Ross Bell

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:45:07 +1200

Yes, the LAPP must be been developed and adopted using the “special consultative procedure" in section 83 of the Local Government Act 2002. If they do that right, then the policy is in effect. Plus they give a copy to the Authority.

Auckland Council is trying to [[http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1404/S00320/legal-high-ban-worthy-of-wider-pick-up.htm | ban…

Ross Bell

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:38:22 +1200

Virginia, sorry for your loss. And thanks for your thoughtful and personal contributions to this discussion. Have you come across this Aussie organisation, Family Drug Support? The founder, Tony Trimingham, lost his son to a heroin overdose and has been a staunch advocate for drug law reform since.…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:37:52 +1200

These jokers...
I used to supply one of them with...
...images!

In fact both of these jokers.
Mostly comics – though I can't find the 'war comic tank triptych' (or diptych) Phil made from one on the web anywhere) that couch and cousins snuck into a few ....

:- )

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:34:11 +1200

Just give me the info…
What RB said and also I don’t know your area (it doesn't matter tho) but Otago will only take cadavers from Sth Island and only a couple of areas at that but Auckland Uni does do Alcohol and Drugs Studies so they might help you…

Ross Bell

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:29:16 +1200

Hi Russell, we've just updated our website with info re LAPPs.

Councils aren't required to have one (but they should create one), and they can only set the location of outlets. Other controls, such as opening hours, are done by regulations (still under development). Perhaps some of those…

Virginia Brooks

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:22:09 +1200

Replying to Sophie and Russell...
Thanks Sophie, it sounded very ungracious of me in the above post 'Really? who and where? Just give me the info…'
Its the momma bear in me roaring... raw-ing...

Russell, re:
...Centre for Adverse Reactions Monitoring (CARM) in Dunedin, which collates reports on products covered…

Russell Brown

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:10:27 +1200

Matt died 3 wks later.

I'm so sorry to learn that. I appreciate your presence in this discussion more than ever.

It was suicide but where synthetics a contributing factor?
I offered his leftover hoard to the coroners office for testing / making medical data available to others. The response…

Russell Brown

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 12:03:01 +1200

I feel Dunne equivocates when he says Councils came to Government for the power to do something about these shops – A need due to the vacuum of real leadership on the issue at a Government level…

He is actually correct on that. Under the act, councils must define where…

Virginia Brooks

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:54:18 +1200

Really? who and where? Just give me the info...

Virginia Brooks

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:53:33 +1200

Thanks muchly Debunk. Let me know how you get on with your enquires.

Russell and Ross also mentioned websites like Erowid and Trip me – they are excellent and there are other sites also which have communities of users sharing info & experiences – its a form of self education and…

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:35:12 +1200

the coroners office for testing / making medical data available to others. The response was its not worth it, we’ll only bin it.

Hi Virginia. The Coroners may not have wanted to do research but Otago University might have.

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 11:02:44 +1200

Lawless bud substitute…

The guy that went to the shop and told Dunne off on his way in could have been a good follow up and I’d be interested to see what comes of the shop keeper’s request to see Campbell.
Once again, Dunne talking up bad effects of marijuana…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 10:16:36 +1200

A hard case study...
Back in the '70s in Chchch many young people were seduced by this dreadful drug 'Mary Jane' or 'Pot' (often mixed with the more prevalent and debilitating alcohol) – sneaking out on to the fire escape of the Upstairs Common Room, the parking lot at The…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 09:18:43 +1200

Lawless bud substitute...
Watching Dunne do the 'avoid dance' on Campbell Live was just as 'extraordinarily depressing' as he said he found the whole shopping centre – the 'pretty unsavoury' (to use Dunne's words again) state of which was roundly placed, by locals, on the existence of the Highs shop…

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 09:08:25 +1200

Thanks Taslov. Interesting that marijuana is a most popular choice. No shit Sherlock ;) I guess we humans can be a sensible lot if you compare those statistics. Looks like we choose one of the least harmful on the body out of the range looked at there. Plus those surveys…

debunk

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 08:40:27 +1200

Psychologists call it "avoidance" – see a lot of it on this thread. Happy to be proved wrong. I would suggest "addiction" is a physiological problem and not just habituation to soothing "addictive" substances.

mark taslov

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 08:27:25 +1200

*Peltzman effect

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/04/lots-cars-and-trucks-no-traffic-signs-or-lights-chaos-or-calm/5152/

mark taslov

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 08:03:47 +1200

Could “time” be the variant. As is with addiction for other drugs. For most drugs it’s over time that dependence occurs.

Whether addiction is inherent in the substances themselves or specific to individual constitutions should most probably feature in this discussion.

In 2011, 4.2 million Americans aged 12 or older…

debunk

Fri, 25 Apr 2014 06:52:27 +1200

Virginia
So sorry to hear your story about Matt. I always wondered if my teenage son was going to reach 20 and that was just in the years of beer and marijuana through school, and assorted risky teenage behaviour. There is money about for NGOs. Perhaps this is what the…

Virginia Brooks

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 23:25:26 +1200

re: a great service called Check It.
I checked it, it looks amazing. This is what we need in NZ. Please someone make it happen...

At the moment we have so little medical info and we are wasting info by not analysing, archiving and disseminating info to both users and…

Virginia Brooks

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 22:35:38 +1200

re: The UK toxocologist John Ramsey “has spent decades collecting more than 27,000 samples of narcotics” etc (www.theguardian,com/society/2013/apr/26/hidden-dangers-of-legal-highs)..

Thanks, that is the article I was looking for. When I first read it I was amazed at the size of Ramsey's project and its value as a data base in detailing…

Shulgin

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:54:23 +1200

http://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/regulation-health-and-disability-system/psychoactive-substances/interim-product-approvals

light years ahead....of course wee darlings

Interim product approvals

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 20:27:50 +1200

I'll drink to that!
Cause Bud is better.
Even Peter Dunne knows that
Why can't Dunne see the tax implications?
Didn't he used to be Minister of Revenue?

On the evidence tonight
Give the people what they want
less random factors
more control
and take the tax

what does the…

BenWilson

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 19:50:41 +1200

Then Campbell live moved on to Graham Norton doing an infomercial about Kiwi wine.

Wow, true. It's so normalized I didn't even notice the juxtaposition. I'm about to go out on the town, will see if I can find any people acting as "disgracefully" as the guy who was stoned…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 19:34:25 +1200

Based on that a savvy 'Highs' manufacturer would be looking for a celebrity tie-in, and donating half the profits to TV3's Greta Garbo Home For Wayward Boys and Girls, or some such...
aaah legitimacy.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 19:29:25 +1200

Graham Norton doing an infomercial about Kiwi wine.
I know, a crushing metaphor.....
I'm still waiting for them to acknowledge that The Graham Norton Show is a TV3 property – transparency cuts through all things Mr Campbell.

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 19:23:30 +1200

the discomfit zone
Dunne squirms on Campbell Live in Naenae – and he says he hates the shopping centre that someone else has just said has been ruined by the 'highs' shop – just another adverse reaction...

Shulgin

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 15:46:50 +1200

DI Mills told me he regards them as basically educational.

In reply..... Mills would say that...cause he sure needs edyakaychun...after what he did over/around the maxwell report....fiddling figures with Inspector Mills....very nawtee D I MIlls! (He should resign!)

Russell Brown

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 09:13:00 +1200

Russell is also writing about this for our magazine.

I can’t wait for that story to be published, so I can use the full interview I did with the founders of Erowid.

One of the interesting things about that story is what Stuart Mills, co-ordinator of the police's drug intelligence…

Ross Bell

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 07:44:27 +1200

Hi Virginia, no NZ doesn’t have a system like this. ESR does test drugs seized by Customs and Police, but that information is used as evidence for prosecutions and not shared with the health sector/users themselves. There are good mdoels offshore like the one you mention. We were in Vienna…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 06:27:42 +1200

vape products
Not just for aromatherapy then?

debunk

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 06:04:20 +1200

Suspect an interested analytical organic chemist in the universities is needed with a PhD starter looking for a topic. Psychopharmacologists are increasingly calling themselves "neuroscientists" and preoccupied with brain scanning – where all the research funds are going esp in the USA. And they (we) generally look at the effects…

debunk

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 05:01:49 +1200

The UK toxocologist John Ramsey "has spent decades collecting more than 27,000 samples of narcotics" etc (www.theguardian,com/society/2013/apr/26/hidden-dangers-of-legal-highs)..tho apparently his test conditions are pretty old so its not a "government" programme. The NZ Poisons Centre, though apparently based in the Pharmacology Department at Otago Medical School does not appear to do…

Virginia Brooks

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 00:49:35 +1200

Re the vaporising blends – thanks for bringing it up because it's a major problem that's barely begun showing impact here but it will, I'm sure.
There are the vape blends with illegal nicotine content, but also vape blends containing synthetic psychoactives.
Stargate products are out there but also black…

Virginia Brooks

Thu, 24 Apr 2014 00:14:57 +1200

Keep up the debate everyone and thanks Russell for creating a space to do it in. Thanks Ross Bell for your opinion piece in this mornings herald and Shulgin for your insight.

What I would really like to know is – can anyone tell me – do we have anywhere…

Shulgin

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 20:38:41 +1200

in reply to Ian D....normative determinism....

hufffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

away....................

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/video/legalize-real-pot-fake-pot-inventor-13782954

Legalize Real Pot, Says Fake Pot Inventor

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:18:00 +1200

Inflammation? I’d love to know more about that. References anyone?

Prostaglandin
and
JWH 133
might help...

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:09:14 +1200

“They play a role in regulating appetite, nausea, mood, pain and inflammation.”
Maybe these substances are also akin to a computer virus like Stuxnet, in that they take over control systems then flood them with bad information, and can turn them on and off at random or leave them spasming…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:02:54 +1200

Jon W Huffman
I know it is venturing into Paul Henry name-calling territory,
but isn't that a fine example of Nominative Determinism...

Shulgin

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:02:31 +1200

the point...about horse riding and JWH compounds...is that.... in some/most ways it is okay to smoke and eat.... untested cancer compounds/drugs here in New Zealand...because they are "legal" highs and we have an innovative act by a mad christian....just give me the horse.... john wayne style...lets get a posse..... and…

debunk

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:58:33 +1200

Prof Nutt is devising an "intoxicating cocktail..aimed at people who want to drink responsibly" ...

www.guardian.com/society/david-nutt-drink-alcohol-substitute-safer-intoxicant

Twit.

Sacha

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 17:57:55 +1200

They play a role in regulating appetite, nausea, mood, pain and inflammation.

Inflammation? I'd love to know more about that. References anyone?

Shulgin

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:59:17 +1200

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCChf2WHNE4

Sacked government drug adviser David Nutt talks to Sky News

Professor David Nutt asked to resign after his claims that ecstasy is no more harmful than horse-riding and that cannabis is less dangerous than alcohol or nicotine.

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:43:48 +1200

Yes awl right ;)
Neil Young.

Shulgin

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 16:22:59 +1200

“In the long run, some form of manufacturing standard seems to me to be a good way around the risks of so-called “E” and “LSD” containing unknown substances in unknown concentrations.”

In reply to RB…tongue in cheek….of course and seeing Prof Nutt said horse riding was more dangerous than taking…

Russell Brown

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 15:25:23 +1200

Huffman himself says better to legalise cannabis and ban the synthetics.

Which solves the cannabis niche, but not the next lot of party pills.

It’s interesting that if you read the Erowid vault on Cannbinoid Receptor Agonists, most of the psychonauts there are consuming them not as a mock-cannabis product,…

Shulgin

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 14:54:43 +1200

If I could be particular again.

The synthetic cannabis drama has a basis in the work of Jon W Huffman, hence the compounds JWH -018 and JWH-398 etc found in legal highs. In fact there are around 460 of these JWH compounds.

This link is an interview with Huffman, please…

debunk

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 14:45:34 +1200

Comment on Pam Corkery's article in today's NZ Herald "Dunne connection demands grilling" by one jerome buckleigh at 12.55PM Wednesday 23 Apr 2014

"I was at a party in Titirangi two years ago and met Matt Bowden who informed me that Dunne's son was writing legislation for legal highs and…

Russell Brown

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 14:42:02 +1200

Well you don’t know because there’s no consistent analysis of product content!

Yes. There. Is.

The Code of Manufacturing Practice specified in the Act came into force in January. It also mandates audits of manufacturing premises and physical inspections at any time. Certificates of analysis are required for every product…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:14:00 +1200

the spike...
"When I put a spike into my vein
Then I tell you things aren't quite the same
When I'm rushing on my run
And I feel just like Jesus' son
And I guess I just don't know
And I guess that I just don't know

I have made…

debunk

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:48:30 +1200

Well you don't know because there's no consistent analysis of product content!

Recommend
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/apr/26/hidden-dangers-of-legal-highs

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:21:59 +1200

The thing is, no new variants have been permitted for sale since the Act came in. It specifically prevents them.

Could “time” be the variant. As is with addiction for other drugs. For most drugs it’s over time that dependence occurs. Could the synthetics have taken their toll over time.…

Russell Brown

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:58:33 +1200

I opine that “new” untested drug variants are coming into New Zealand – with unknown physiological effect.

The thing is, no new variants have been permitted for sale since the Act came in. It specifically prevents them.

Craig Young

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:56:37 +1200

Granted, unfortunately, antidrug populism is a default position in drug policy debates in New Zealand, sadly. However, where does moral panic end in this whole situation and actual adverse reactions to a specific psychoactive neurochemical response begin? Undoubtedly, the latter does occur, but you're right, Russell, it is being blown…

debunk

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:53:21 +1200

Moral panic spreads to the hospitals! Let's get back to evidence based medicine. I opine that "new" untested drug variants are coming into New Zealand – with unknown physiological effect.

Russell Brown

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:37:45 +1200

One question occurs to me. Are these legal high users also using other drugs? In which case, are we dealing with straightforward reactions to cannabinoids or polydrug abuse in this context?

I'm not sure anyone completely understands what's going on here. As Dunne noted last night, the reported harms were…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:21:57 +1200

As a medicinal drug, Marijuana was perfect for me to overcome my loss of appetite that occurred while on chemotherapy, and the advice was given by medical professionals. I doubt those people would say the same about the legal synthetic cannabis. so Dunne needs to accept expert advice from more…

debunk

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:17:56 +1200

So sorry. I am not a lawyer and I took my opinion not from the other thread it seems but probably from "Father & son: Dunne deals?" in The Standard (thestandard.org.nz/father-son-dunne-deals/) and obviously have conflicted thinking on the subject and have made a faulty inference re some connection between father and…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:08:10 +1200

He needs to get out of his own way…

Hear , hear!
In the interview I linked to on C Live he's asked to do a ride along to meet the addicts, His response is. he couldnt say without an off air discussion. Oh , poor dear,
obsfucation, much?

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:02:21 +1200

| John Campbell on Jessie then questions Peter Dunne
about 8.45 in for PD in Vid.
I personally think PD's argument is bollocks.

Craig Young

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:00:42 +1200

Blogged about the issue of drug policy a few months ago...

Drug policy reform is a more intractable question. Given New Zealand’s difficulty in even organising medicinal cannabis reform, I am pessimistic about its immediate prospects. It may well be advisable in the context of palliative medical needs in the…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:42:52 +1200

Indeed, 'complicit' is a step too far
– especially as it is not an illegal industry under the law.

But Peter Dunne's statement to Sean Plunket to the effect that he will not talk to, or accept submissions, from those in the industry that his son represents, seems needlessly self-limiting,…

Chris Waugh

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 09:27:00 +1200

And yet I see nothing in either thread or any of the media coverage I've read to support your "complicit with son and importing business".

debunk

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 08:45:31 +1200

@Chris Waugh
I take my opinion from the other thread. This is a serious medical issue as I see it, and if the aim really is "sorting out our thinking on drugs" we need to be mindful of the evidence. The most useful contribution here is Shulgin who challenges the…

BenWilson

Wed, 23 Apr 2014 00:09:23 +1200

You’re not alone in thinking that, although you may be in a minority.

I surely am, if the people who think we're making progress on saner drug laws cite as their evidence all the drugs that are now banned, and all the difficulties making legal ones available. That's our measure…

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 23:51:56 +1200

The more things that get banned, the more reason there is to take crystal meth instead. That’s where I see all this heading.

I think I finally understand what your argument is: the Act's not too loose, it's too tight.

You're not alone in thinking that, although you may be…

Chris Waugh

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 23:38:04 +1200

Minister complacent and complicit with son and importing business.

You sure you want to make that accusation? Have you got evidence to back that statement up? If so, care to share it? Cos that's a pretty big claim, not one I'd want to make lightly.

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 23:24:01 +1200

This witless and unworkable NZ law will fail because there is an endless supply of variants (ie “research drugs”) and as one is withdrawn another slightly altered version will surface.

No, it won't. You don't understand what the Act does.

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 22:02:46 +1200

Supply and demand. So long as there is a market the synthetic lab drugs will keep coming and they are very profitable. They will come through the internet sources anyway and the black market is already established. Adopt the Canberra system with modest fines, allowance for a couple of domestic…

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:56:27 +1200

@Shulgin
Excellent post. Kids will die the way things are going and who will prove negligent for this appalling state of affairs. Health and Safety nowhere to be seen. ACC silent. Hospitals complaining. Minister complacent and complicit with son and importing business. Parents frantic. Local Government stymied. NZ Poisons Centre…

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:44:53 +1200

We clearly agree on that. But how does that fix the problem of every other novel psychoactive that comes along?

By outcompeting them. Yes, it's not a solution on the side of users of various kinds of uppers. But for those, the illicit versions are so much more likely to…

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:38:51 +1200

USA law changes are right, as are those laws in the more enlightened states in Australia.

This witless and unworkable NZ law will fail because there is an endless supply of variants (ie "research drugs") and as one is withdrawn another slightly altered version will surface. They will reappear faster…

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:19:26 +1200

The alternative has been thought of. Decriminalize cannabis. Or even better, legalize it.

We clearly agree on that. But how does that fix the problem of every other novel psychoactive that comes along?

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:17:00 +1200

The New South Wales legislature has gone another way, passing a law that bans all psychoactive substances, including those yet unknown...

But, but ... Peter Dunne says that's impossible :-)

You know I can't ban your ghost drugs, Graeme.

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:10:09 +1200

You’re seriously suggesting that regulated manufacturing standards, getting the products out of dairies, monitoring remaining retailers etc won’t reduce harm at all?

I'll wait and see on that one. So far, I've not been impressed.

It’s a bit early to be writing it off in favour of something else that…

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 21:02:34 +1200

Nah, it's not the density of the material that needs fixing, it's the speed of release. If you could pop slow release capsules, you could choose how drunk you wanted to be, and for how long, in advance. You could even set them not to kick in until after a…

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 20:58:42 +1200

The lion’s share of what’s good about them is hypothetical at this point. I don’t accept that any of those things are even worth having at all, if they lead to no actual good that I can appreciate. Like actually bringing harm down.

You’re seriously suggesting that regulated manufacturing standards,…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 20:40:10 +1200

What's needed is heavy ethanol C2D5OH (or, even better, super-heavy ethanol with C14 and O18, which would be 25% denser than regular ethanol). Though the radioactivity from the C14 might make for worse hangovers [ actually, I'd skip the C14, you'd die. ]

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 20:07:50 +1200

At 60% alcohol (another patent suggested only 11%), you'd need 18g for a standard drink, so over 100g to get reasonably pissed. That's quite a lot of white powder to smuggle into a game or bar.

And as the best CiF comment in a while suggests, if they don't get…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:55:34 +1200

If pot was legalised, half the Police force would be unemployed.

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:39:45 +1200

This stuff is a obvious logical conclusion to the Substances Act. Who needs the other stuff when this is better? For the Industry as well. If we get them hooked make it cheap alcohol , then the Brewery Cartel will increase its market for the real stuff when the kids…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:34:33 +1200

Site

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:31:22 +1200

Still, to me it actually sounds more sciency and leads to the impression that we have some deep understanding of their pharmacology.

Word up.

What would a rational consumer do?

Buy dope, and smoke it if they're normal, vaporize it if they have a sensitive throat, or like doing it…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:15:32 +1200

What is Palcohol ?, could we be next?
A powdered substance, legal high. Of course!

Science

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 18:44:51 +1200

I think it’s a logical contortion to rule out all the things Ross listed as being only hypothetical goods.

The lion's share of what's good about them is hypothetical at this point. I don't accept that any of those things are even worth having at all, if they lead to…

Job Rustenhoven

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:34:21 +1200

synthetic cannabinomimetics (I’m training myself to use that term, because these chemicals aren’t actually cannabinoids)
Actually most of them are – cannabinoids are simply drugs that bind to your cannabinoid receptors, they don't have to be structurally related to THC. In the same way methadone is a jolly good opioid…

Shulgin

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:00:28 +1200

If I may be particular.

In the book PHIKAL by A Shulgin, amongst other things, he shows how small changes in chemical structure, functional groups and so on can have radically different results than what would be predicted by the structure that is often times ridiculously close to another compound.…

Pete George

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 16:53:23 +1200

It’s worth sharing this comment from Geoff Noller (from another blog post):
I think that the current raft of problems we’re facing with synthetics are primarily a clear cut case of the prohibition chickens coming home to roost.

An NZ report in 1973 (the ‘Blake-Palmer’ report) warned that continuing the…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:51:18 +1200

A lot of the kids that the Campbell live crew interviewed were of the opinion that weed was better but the legality of synthetics is why the purchased those. Brown kids were smoking in front of Cops on the street happily knowing they wouldn't be harassed or at least couldn't…

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:44:41 +1200

I was asking about the practical good. Those are only hypothetical goods that might lead to a practical good.

I think it's a logical contortion to rule out all the things Ross listed as being only hypothetical goods.

Has the law change meant we’ve actually seen less of this?

[[http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/9893375/Synthetic-cannabis-use-declining-study|It…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:24:38 +1200

Bathroom cabinets, burglars probably have a very good idea which drugs are worth money and which ones they may like. I remember watching Drugstore Cowboy, thinking that was a pretty accurate account of a junkies ingenuity to score. Drugs are about money and highs for most users who are pretty…

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:22:44 +1200

Unlikely that any research could have been done

In that case, it’s reasonable to withhold judgment about whether that’s actually a good. For a long time, until there are any useful statistics.*

It’s up to the user whether to avail themselves of such information.

There’s a point with information where…

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:20:35 +1200

I will have a copy somewhere or it will be on the Guardian site. I have been waiting for someone to infer trolling!

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:06:42 +1200

cleaning out bathroom cabinets of drugs and scoffing the lot

You know, for someone who claims to be a post-grad psychopharmacologist there's a slight lack of credibility in your posts.

I suspect anyone who did that on most people's medicine collections would be very ill from paracetamol poisoning, if nothing…

Sofie Bribiesca

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:03:46 +1200

Purchase age restrictions, marketing controls, mandatory poisons centre helpline on labels, out of dairies. And soon, pre-market testing for harm, consumers will know what they’re taking, standards for manufacturing. Lots.

None of which will help those like the kid Jessie with the rotting gut ,addiction that will air on Campbell…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:58:12 +1200

Is there evidence

Unlikely that any research could have been done, given the law has only been in operation for a short while and few statistics will have been released in the time frame.

Is there any evidence that people are more informed?

If all psychoactive substances were illegal (be…

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:38:48 +1200

Story in UK press a while back of burglars cleaning out bathroom cabinets of drugs and scoffing the lot ..no discrimination. No idea what they were taking ..all just "drugs" .. like "legal high" consumers. Scoffers survived but imagine some common cardiac drugs etc could have buzzy effects...

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:30:41 +1200

not getting additional criminal records for cannabis possession

Is there evidence for a reduction in this happening?

Reduced profits for “illegal” drug dealers

Is there any evidence that this is happening?

People getting an informed choice about what they put in their bodies

Is there any evidence that people are…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:23:01 +1200

- Quite a lot of the bogan riff-raff not getting additional criminal records for cannabis possession (they of course being the ones who may not get away with it, unlike the middle classes who can keep things discreet).

– Reduced profits for "illegal" drug dealers (a lot of the furore…

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:15:45 +1200

@Ben
It's called "growing up" and experimentation is happening everywhere, though mainly alcohol..interesting that reported this morning 50% Australian teenagers not bothering with alcohol – too busy socialising online.

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:11:24 +1200

I was asking about the practical good. Those are only hypothetical goods that might lead to a practical good. Or they might not, as seems to have happened. Kids still get all these drugs, they market them to each other in the most powerful kind of marketing, peer pressure, and…

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:09:37 +1200

You're quoting the wrong person Ben. This Law is a dog. Compare it with ACC and the RMA. Confusing.

Ross Bell

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:07:36 +1200

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:07:29 +1200

Queues in the high street! None so far as I can see and plenty of future harm if these mixtures are withdrawn. Very provocative.

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:05:27 +1200

Yes, I meant to point out that this whole story really began with BZP.

Well, the BZP story began with banning all the things that BZP was meant to simulate.

Ross Bell

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:05:26 +1200

Pam Corkery not liking me on the facebook:
Gangs wouldn't touch this shit. Their networks are set up for the even more lucrative P. Synthetics aren't made here, and I can't see the likes of Bowden etc running the gauntlet of illegal importing, if it were banned. Synthetics are a…

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:00:47 +1200

Regardless cannabis law reform, we still need controls over new psychoactive substances and this law is a goodie.

What practical good has come from it?

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:52:02 +1200

From Stuff's story about the recent report from the Illegal Drug Monitoring System:

Wilkins said the internet made sharing the blueprints for making new synthetic drugs easier than ever. This meant users were more likely not to know what they were taking, as new drugs were passed off as familiar…

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:48:50 +1200

But it’s arguable whether it will do anything for demand for the speedy legals highs (the first, BZP, was no cannabis substitute).

Yes, I meant to point out that this whole story really began with BZP.

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:46:54 +1200

Thomas again, on some of the rather credulous reporting of the Global Drug Use Survey:

__Results from this year’s Global Drug Survey, conducted in partnership with Fairfax Media, found almost 4 per cent of synthetic cannabis users sought emergency medical treatment. More than a quarter of those were admitted to…

debunk

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:45:03 +1200

Canberra rules (states differ)

Two plants for domestic use ($100 fine if discovered but highly unlikely in spaced out suburbs) and no criminal offence. No hydroponics.

Ross Bell

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:44:54 +1200

its easier than admitting the often annoying marijuana legalisation advocates were essentially correct.

Changing the law around cannabis might indeed go a long way to significantly reducing demand for the fake stuff. But it's arguable whether it will do anything for demand for the speedy legals highs (the first, BZP,…

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:35:32 +1200

Didn’t they enable themselves by working around the drug laws at the time?

Yes.

Pete George

Tue, 22 Apr 2014 13:31:42 +1200

"Getting Peter Dunne to admit that cannabis should be legal (which he voted against in 2006) rather than the synthetic-mimics he has enabled..."

I agree that it could be difficult getting him to agree with cannabis becoming legal but it's unfair to lay the blame on him for enabling synthetic-mimics.…