Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Snowden and New Zealand

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 13:44:59 +1200

I urge you to read Glenn Greenwald's take on the claims.

Thank God for real journalism.

The comments after Mr Greenwald's article reads like the comments in the Herald as soon as there is anything questioning the Government. They start out in support then the team is sent in to…

Alfie

Mon, 15 Jun 2015 08:56:25 +1200

No doubt we've all heard the Sunday Times (UK) claims that both Russia and China have somehow accessed the top-secret Snowden documents, that their spies had been endangered and British and UK security has suffered as a result. Strong stuff.

If you have that nagging feeling that something here just…

Stephen R

Mon, 19 May 2014 10:57:39 +1200

There's also the "It doesn't ship from the continental US, which makes it that much harder for us to intercept and 'enhance'" factor.

I think it's also likely be some of "We're bugging all the stuff produced in the US, so I bet the Chinese are doing the same".

A…

DexterX

Mon, 19 May 2014 07:33:55 +1200

The gullibility of the New Zealand public fills me with despair and anger, wake up sheeple.

What can one do?

Matthew Poole

Sun, 18 May 2014 19:22:00 +1200

So maybe the reason for all the US “Don’t buy Huawei, it’s got leaks to the Chinese government” talk….

Is more about “Huawei doesn’t have leaks to us, so we don’t want you to install it” ??

There's also the "It doesn't ship from the continental US, which makes it…

FletcherB

Sun, 18 May 2014 18:14:18 +1200

So maybe the reason for all the US "Don't buy Huawei, it's got leaks to the Chinese government" talk....

Is more about "Huawei doesn't have leaks to us, so we don't want you to install it" ??

Chris Waugh

Sat, 17 May 2014 12:36:07 +1200

hey need more customers in Asia to improve their falling revenue and expand their market.
Most of these customers will now be asking questions about the security of their data, and are unlikely to accept CISCO going “Shock Horror” but doing nothing.

But hang on.... Hasn't CISCO being supplying to…

david kinniburgh

Sat, 17 May 2014 12:25:18 +1200

Russell Brown: These Trojan horse systems were described by an NSA manager as being “some of the most productive operations in TAO because they pre-position access points into hard target networks around the world.” Has photographs.
These would seem to be CISCO kit. All CISCO's modern routers use digitally signed…

Sacha

Fri, 16 May 2014 23:25:49 +1200

surely NOT telling people that the NSA was breaking into computers in NZ would "prejudice the security or defence of New Zealand” in the sense of NZ being all of us rather than just the government

not if you're a fan of 'ends justify means' unfortunately. On that sort of…

Sacha

Fri, 16 May 2014 22:35:36 +1200

≯

TIL

Paul Campbell

Fri, 16 May 2014 19:52:13 +1200

I don't think you get formal "enemies" without a declaration of war

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 19:49:14 +1200

No, my friend who can’t talk about bits of the Snowden stuff.

Oh, right. Yes, pretty much.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 19:31:08 +1200

Bang? Yes

No, my friend who can't talk about bits of the Snowden stuff.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 19:28:21 +1200

And presumably an actual declaration of war

No. "Engaged in hostilities" is very broad.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 19:27:09 +1200

Which is why Peter Dunne was never charged: because he had committed no crime.

Peter Dunne committed no crime because the document he allegedly leaked was not subject to a national security classification. It was a public document that was going to be released in two days, so it was…

Paul Campbell

Fri, 16 May 2014 18:36:44 +1200

And presumably an actual declaration of war; something that seems to have gone out of fashion these days

Idiot Savant

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:55:41 +1200

No, but telling the world stuff that harms the defence of NZ is part of it if it's likely that al Qaeda or some other such group got to see that stuff.

Nope. The closest you can get is "assist[ing] an enemy at war with New Zealand, or any armed…

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:52:34 +1200

I assume you’re meaning that as a clarification for others who don’t understand my point?

Bang? Yes

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:52:11 +1200

I/S is correct in that the IGSI and ISC are not covered by the OIA, but it is because they are creatures of Parliament, not government, and Parliament is not covered by the OIA.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:50:17 +1200

I assume you're meaning that as a clarification for others who don't understand my point?

Idiot Savant

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:46:31 +1200

That does not mesh with the wording of the section. "Official information" does not have to be held by "an organisation" to be covered, and the definition of what constitutes official information is very, very broad. The IGSI and the ISC are both covered.

Shall we look at it? Are…

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:41:10 +1200

If you are discussing S.78A of the Crimes Act, then the infomation has to belong to an NZ government department.

Any information received by a government agency is deemed to be official information from the time of receipt onwards and can be released as part of an OIA request, but…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:40:15 +1200

“Telling the public stuff the government doesn’t want them to know” is no part of [treason].

No, but telling the world stuff that harms the defence of NZ is part of it if it's likely that al Qaeda or some other such group got to see that stuff. It's not…

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:36:14 +1200

Aforementioned friend still can’t talk about anything classified he was read in on while in government employ, even if its existence is now public courtesy of Snowden. And he wasn’t working for the spooks, either. If he was still employed in a vetted role, he wouldn’t be allowed to talk…

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:26:18 +1200

As best I can ascertain vetting is still only routine for S and TS (to differing depths, obviously), but a check with Ministry of Justice is standard for C and R (and everything else in government, pretty much)

That's my understanding, too.

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:25:27 +1200

Please provide a solution for:

x >= y
s.t
y ≯ x

then
No.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:22:37 +1200

And if the body whose information it is isn’t covered by the OIA e.g. the Inspector-General of Security and Intelligence, or the Intelligence and Security Committee – then its not “official information” and its total fair game.

That does not mesh with the wording of the section. "Official information" does…

Idiot Savant

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:18:13 +1200

unless the government decides to try you for treason.

Treason in NZ has a very specific meaning. "Telling the public stuff the government doesn't want them to know" is no part of it.

Idiot Savant

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:14:03 +1200

To be breaking NZ law you must “knowingly or recklessly, and with knowledge that [you are] acting without proper authority, communicate any official information or deliver any object to any other person knowing that such communication or delivery is likely to prejudice the security or defence of New Zealand”.

And…

Paul Campbell

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:03:48 +1200

surely NOT telling people that the NSA was breaking into computers in NZ would "prejudice the security or defence of New Zealand” in the sense of NZ being all of us rather than just the government

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 16 May 2014 16:01:41 +1200

Indeed. Snap.

I think S20.A could be used against a cop leaking to journalists, or a Treasury official getting a bit over-enthusiastic on that online insider trading site.

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 16 May 2014 15:59:19 +1200

If you are discussing S.78A of the Crimes Act, then the infomation has to belong to an NZ government department.

I don't think information can be "born secret" in NZ, so if it hasn't passed through the hands of the NZ government, it isn't protected.

Also, information that doesn't "prejudice…

Idiot Savant

Fri, 16 May 2014 15:54:26 +1200

does having a security clearance legally require you to keep secrets? can the existence of a bug that the NSA is actively exploiting be declared a state secret? even one in my own code?

No.Security clearances have no statutory force. Ultimately they're simply an employment issue.

There is a summary…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 15:48:09 +1200

So if something is declared secret, It’s illegal for me to reveal it, but if I’m not cleared I’m not allowed to know that it’s illegal for me to reveal it

If you have a security clearance and you know it’s classified, it’s clearly illegal. If you don’t have a…

Paul Campbell

Fri, 16 May 2014 15:31:48 +1200

Complex answer: it’s not the clearance that compels you to keep a secret. It’s the fact that something has been declared secret. Your clearance allows you to know about the thing even though it is a secret from people who don’t have clearance, which is most of us..

So if…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 15:25:13 +1200

it’s not the clearance that compels you to keep a secret. It’s the fact that something has been declared secret.

Even more complex, the full answer is, "it's both."

Aforementioned friend still can't talk about anything classified he was read in on while in government employ, even if its existence…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 16 May 2014 15:24:25 +1200

Please provide a solution for:

x >= y
s.t
y ≯ x

then

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 15:17:20 +1200

When I held a TSV, my referees were definitely interviewed – probably I was as well

When I was referee for a friend's TSV back in 2005 I was one of two (of four) referees who was selected to be interviewed by an SIS officer. My friend was not interviewed.…

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 15:03:32 +1200

IS: I don’t know – does having a security clearance legally require you to keep secrets? can the existence of a bug that the NSA is actively exploiting be declared a state secret? even one in my own code?

Simple answer: yes.

Complex answer: it's not the clearance that compels…

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 14:57:08 +1200

I think most languages use <= rather than !> or ≯

They do, but they don't mean the same thing, conceptually. Sometimes, you just want to be that precise.

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 14:53:32 +1200

1. Vetting by the SIS is only for Confidential (CV), Secret (SV) and Top Secret (TSV). (Not Restricted as mention by Mark) There are also levels above TSV.

The first rule of security clearances is not to talk about security clearances ;-)

I thought I said that only SV and…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 16 May 2014 14:51:32 +1200

I think most languages use <= rather than !> or ≯

Paul Campbell

Fri, 16 May 2014 13:30:37 +1200

IS: I don't know – does having a security clearance legally require you to keep secrets? can the existence of a bug that the NSA is actively exploiting be declared a state secret? even one in my own code?

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 13:29:55 +1200

For the non-geeks, ”!=” means “not equal” (and is pronounced “bang-equal” if you’re that way inclined) just the same as ”!>” is “not greater than” as opposed to “<” which is “less than" and not the same as “not greater than” #protip

Idiot Savant

Fri, 16 May 2014 13:26:50 +1200

they could, I suppose, classify a document as “Public” and refuse to let you see it on the grounds that it is “classified”.

Nope. The OIA doesn't care about what labels agencies stick on documents. Instead, they would have to claim that release would prejudice the security and defence of…

Idiot Savant

Fri, 16 May 2014 13:24:36 +1200

My guess is the real reason for having someone with a security clearance is so that the GCSB has someone in place in every ISP to use when the time comes to start tapping someone aggressively, they also need someone they can tell "don't fix that bug, we're using that"…

nzlemming

Fri, 16 May 2014 13:24:08 +1200

“Unclassified” != “not yet classified”.

Word.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 12:57:46 +1200

UNCLASSIFIED is also the default classification on anything the national security apparatus of the government produces, at least in theory. So that also shoots down your "lazy bureaucrat" theory.

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 12:26:33 +1200

Unclassified is a classification

Like I said “nitpick” but it is still lazy and allows abuse of the OIA by smart arsed bureaucrats.

No, it doesn't. It really, really, really doesn't. Documents classified as Unclassified cannot be withheld under the national security exemptions to the OIA. The national security classifications…

Paul Campbell

Fri, 16 May 2014 11:38:53 +1200

Mathew – it's not that simple for tax reasons I'm not a direct employee :-) I'm technically my own boss – none of our equipment other than customer units are in NZ and I don't do network operations, so it's likely not an issue, it's much more likely that the…

Steve Barnes

Fri, 16 May 2014 11:09:42 +1200

Unclassified is a classification
Like I said "nitpick" but it is still lazy and allows abuse of the OIA by smart arsed bureaucrats.
As to “Unclassified” != “not yet classified” what are you saying here, sounds the same as what I said.
Really don't need to argue, like I said,…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 16 May 2014 10:38:09 +1200

Does it take a Taxonomic Genus & 'Filer' to Classify...?
Typical lazy spies and their use of language
Interestingly 'spies' looks a lot like an anagram of Sepsis
(sans largesse perhaps)?
Sepsis: (Greek, putrefaction and decay) is a potentially fatal whole-body inflammation (a systemic inflammatory response syndrome or SIRS) caused by…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 10:29:35 +1200

There are only 2 NZ employees … do I need to register? need a clearance? can I be forced to get a clearance? is the choice “get a clearance or quit your job”?

You need to do two things.
1) Read the damned law, instead of speculating wildly and inaccurately…

Paul Campbell

Fri, 16 May 2014 10:28:36 +1200

Ok now its a nitpick but an unclassified thing, document or whatever, just means it hasn’t been classified, so you couldn’t tell if it were meant to be secret or not, It is like no-one has looked at it and made that decision yet.they could, I suppose, classify a document…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 10:26:23 +1200

Not true. Unclassified is a classification…

Steve Barnes

Fri, 16 May 2014 10:06:28 +1200

Ok now its a nitpick but an unclassified thing, document or whatever, just means it hasn’t been classified, so you couldn't tell if it were meant to be secret or not, It is like no-one has looked at it and made that decision yet.
they could, I suppose, classify a…

Matthew Poole

Fri, 16 May 2014 09:37:05 +1200

I’m happy to see that the GCSB’s list of rules is marked twice on every page “UNCLASSIFIED” … sadly I guess that means that there are other rules that people all have to adhere to that are classified

Every document that comes out of GCSB has a classification marking. You…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 16 May 2014 09:32:51 +1200

Anyway, history apart, I think what we really need is a "Get a Warrant Act" (the name is from Australia, and obviously the real act would have a proper name).

It should be illegal to read private information (of any kind, including metadata, locations and so on) by any means…

Rich of Observationz

Fri, 16 May 2014 09:24:27 +1200

Thatcher got in 5 years later. She or one of her cohorts would probably have rolled Heath had he stayed in office and won/lost an election in late 74/75.

The real problem was the divided and compromised nature of the Wilson/Callaghan governments (all those "tribal Labour" right-wingers). With North Sea…

Steve Barnes

Fri, 16 May 2014 09:15:19 +1200

– we spend almost exactly the same amount on economic espionage as we do on actual research

Well, its cheaper to steal good ideas that do the research.
Oh, you didn't mean that?
;-)
/coat

Paul Campbell

Fri, 16 May 2014 08:34:51 +1200

Russell Brown

Fri, 16 May 2014 07:58:50 +1200

From a reader not in a position to comment publicly, on security clearances and employment:

1. Vetting by the SIS is only for Confidential (CV), Secret (SV) and Top Secret (TSV). (Not Restricted as mention by Mark) There are also levels above TSV.

2. There is a big back log…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 16 May 2014 07:22:59 +1200

There might be an interesting discussion over whether that part of Waihopai is an NSA or a GCSB facility, of course.
Murray Horton could engage you on that, I'm sure...
Catch him in Te Aroha this morning, Tauranga tonight,
and Whakatane & Opotiki on Monday
Itinerary

Sacha

Thu, 15 May 2014 22:19:24 +1200

whether that part of Waihopai is an NSA or a GCSB facility
sovereignty and all that

Sacha

Thu, 15 May 2014 22:16:11 +1200

the National Union of Miners who brought down the UK government in 1974

resulting in Thatcher?
#nothanks

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 15 May 2014 21:28:25 +1200

What would be to stop the GCSB from playing silly buggers with the internet, leaving the supply of money and similar necessities untouched, but severely restricting access to less essential services

Lack of skills and information, as in not knowing which IP addresses were part of essential infrastructure.

Or solidarity:…

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 May 2014 21:27:18 +1200

Here's a goodie:

A document included in the trove of National Security Agency files released with Glenn Greenwald’s book No Place to Hide details how the agency’s Tailored Access Operations (TAO) unit and other NSA employees intercept servers, routers, and other network gear being shipped to organizations targeted for surveillance…

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 May 2014 21:07:28 +1200

For the non technical, CentOS is a kind of Linux operating system, VMWare is a technology for making one big grunty server behave like a lot of small servers so you can consolidate services on less hardware – they aren’t nefarious tools for doing bad.

No, no, Daniel wasn't saying…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 15 May 2014 20:24:28 +1200

Having the supply of money, fuel or groceries dry up might actually convince NZers not to vote for the government that caused such a situation.

Well, there are two key differences between NZ and China. Perhaps a more realistic comparison would be this: I can only see things like YouTube,…

Sacha

Thu, 15 May 2014 20:15:03 +1200

too bad if something goes tits-up there while I'm on call

and you can bet it's exactly the sort of mismatch between business needs and theoretical security that sees someone log you in on their credentials. #fail

llew40

Thu, 15 May 2014 19:54:37 +1200

Plenty of people wrote to the minister also saying that the definition of a network operator was not actually broad enough to achieve the purpose of the legislation. That is, there are many forms of communication that are not regarded as networks, e.g. Skype, Viber and the hundreds of other…

Trevor Nicholls

Thu, 15 May 2014 19:03:05 +1200

You can never "operate outside the framework of the law" when the law allows retrospective amendment, q.v. recent NZ legislation...

nzlemming

Thu, 15 May 2014 18:37:32 +1200

yes – but if the reason you need the experience is so you know what to do once you’ve broken info one or more of these it’s a bit more nefarious.

Now that is truly paranoid, and I speak as one who... let's say "is convinced beyond a reasonable doubt"…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 15 May 2014 17:58:24 +1200

Yeah, but they probably didn't have large chunks of fairly important infrastructure like supermarkets and banks sending traffic over VPNs rather than leased lines.

Having the supply of money, fuel or groceries dry up might actually convince NZers not to vote for the government that caused such a situation.

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 17:52:17 +1200

yes – but if the…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 17:50:10 +1200

I notice the budget includes $75m for the GCSB, and $40m for the SIS – we spend almost exactly the same amount on economic espionage as we do on actual research (the Ministry of Science and Innovation) .... but oooh scary the terrorists are winning

Stephen Judd

Thu, 15 May 2014 17:48:39 +1200

Meh, CentOS and VMWare would be part of the basic infrastructure of many large NZ organisations not least public sector ones. Suggesting a sinister coincidence is drawing a long bow. And I say that as someone who is convinced they *are* in cahoots.

For the non technical, CentOS is a…

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 May 2014 17:35:08 +1200

Another NSA map, from last year — identifying Waihopai as a location for X-Keyscore. Via Daniel Ayers, who noted that the GCSB issued an RFP "for loads of IT kit same as NSA uses. ... Pre-Snowden NSA contractor job ads want experience w CentOS, VMware, etc. Guess what GCSB issued…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 17:26:32 +1200

I guess if I really wanted to mess with them I'd import a whole bunch of cheap $20 Huawei access points and flood trademe ....

Andre Alessi

Thu, 15 May 2014 16:06:20 +1200

Let’s not get too silly. A “telecommunications service” is about connectivity – the means to transfer the data bits. A website is as much a “telecommunications service” as a personal call

Not to mention that the "service provider" and "network operator" definitions were developed in discussion with the industry. They're…

TracyMac

Thu, 15 May 2014 15:56:39 +1200

I can see the security model they're aiming at being similar to Australia's. There, (mostly) public servants can get a security clearance at one of four levels, which can be transferred between agencies (there's a process to this – you don't just get access to every agency's "Secret"-classified information unless…

TracyMac

Thu, 15 May 2014 15:45:40 +1200

Let's not get too silly. A "telecommunications service" is about connectivity – the means to transfer the data bits. A website is as much a "telecommunications service" as a phone call.

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 15:14:12 +1200

I'm happy to see that the GCSB's list of rules is marked twice on every page "UNCLASSIFIED" ... sadly I guess that means that there are other rules that people all have to adhere to that are classified

Steve Barnes

Thu, 15 May 2014 15:11:37 +1200

And of course. They do all this spying stuff to keep us all safe from harm...
U-2’s flight plan was like malware to FAA computer system
the system ignored this manually keyed altitude data. It started evaluating all possible altitudes along the U-2’s planned flight path for potential…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 15 May 2014 15:01:05 +1200

And of course we all knew how safe Skype was eh?

"PRISM has a new collection capability: Skype stored communications," a previously confidential NSA memo from 2013 declared. "Skype stored communications will contain unique data which is not collected via normal real-time surveillance collection." The data includes buddy…

Chris Waugh

Thu, 15 May 2014 14:44:06 +1200

The government can hardly shut down the entire NZ internet, and if a civil disobediance campaign is widespread enough (people refusing to fill out the forms, refusing to fill them out accurately, and refusing to speak to SIS snoops seeking to check referees), then that is the option they will…

Stephen Judd

Thu, 15 May 2014 14:35:15 +1200

Many people wrote to the Minister complaining the definitions of network operator were way too broad.

She replied essentially saying we were reading the legislation wrong and that only parties covered under existing legislation were intended. No, there was no need to add clarifying language to the bill.

Quite an…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 15 May 2014 14:11:51 +1200

After all, you send a squad car to arrest a copyright infringer who fails to appear in court after a summons. You launch a helicopter raid on a terrorist’s mansion.
You obviously missed the memo!
Things have been ratcheted up a notch or two. Nowadays: you send a helicopter raid…

Idiot Savant

Thu, 15 May 2014 13:58:40 +1200

On the subject of security clearence. We used to have the "Official Secrets Act" enacted in 1951, repealed? dunno.

Repealed by the OIA over 30 years ago.

Steve Barnes

Thu, 15 May 2014 13:45:09 +1200

(click to embiggen)
Perfectly cromulent sir...
On the subject of security clearence. We used to have the "Official Secrets Act" enacted in 1951, repealed? dunno.
I had to sign it back in the UK, for that is from where it henced.
I was working in one of the Royal Parks,…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 13:24:39 +1200

anyone with a web site "provides a telecommunications service in New Zealand to an end-user" congrats Russell – do you scrub your logs

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 May 2014 13:19:31 +1200

From Buddle Finlay's October 2013 summary Telecommunications interception Bill – too much?:

SERVICE PROVIDERS

A "service provider" under the Bill is any person within or outside New Zealand (other than a network operator) who provides a telecommunications service in New Zealand to an end-user, as part of a business or…

nzlemming

Thu, 15 May 2014 13:08:04 +1200

There’s a candidate guide here.

Ah, thank you, I knew there was one somewhere.

Matthew Poole

Thu, 15 May 2014 13:04:27 +1200

But demanding it of civilians who have nothing to do with the government

They may not want to have anything to do with the government, but by dint of working for a network provider who is legally required to have something to do with the government, they now do have…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 15 May 2014 13:00:11 +1200

I’d bet that if a network provider found a way to firewall off any command/control signals from outside their network, the GCSB would tell them to stop.

GCSB has no mandate to make such a demand. The law is pretty clear that interception capability is an on-premises activity, not one…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:55:27 +1200

“GCSB must approve all changes to your network”
Not correct. GCSB must approve changes to broad categories of a network, but not all changes. You can re-number your network as often as you wish. You can change your network administration credentials without seeking GCSB approval. You can deploy whatever CPE…

Matthew Poole

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:48:23 +1200

Not as the USA does, where you get vetted and it stays with you as an individual. Generally, security clearances apply only to staff of a government organisation and are the decision of the Chief Executive of that agency and only for that agency.

Just like in the US, actually.…

Stephen R

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:47:41 +1200

OTOH, if you don't want to play, just tell them that you're a drug-addicted communist wikileaks-supporter with huge financial problems who is cheating on your partner (that establishes three of the classic motives: Money, Ideology, Compromise). Problem solved.

Yeah, nah. Not if you have a real job.

The Act, as…

Idiot Savant

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:42:24 +1200

They're already drowning in their own paperwork. A few years ago SIS took years to grant a security clearance (and they didn't do it right – remember this guy? SIS gave him a clearance).

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:35:53 +1200

I think every person in the country should all file the appropriate paper whenever they buy a wireless access point, or enable an access point on a phone, or ..... drown them in their own paper work

Idiot Savant

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:33:07 +1200

Many people in telecommunications are very unhappy about all this. Understandably.

Then they should simply refuse to cooperate with SIS's underwear sniffing. The government can hardly shut down the entire NZ internet, and if a civil disobediance campaign is widespread enough (people refusing to fill out the forms, refusing to…

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:22:55 +1200

Requiring such clearance for appropriate government work is one thing. But demanding it of civilians who have nothing to do with the government (and potentially being able to shut down an entire business if they don’t jump through your stupid hoops) is intrusive and onerous.

Many people in telecommunications are…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:21:45 +1200

yes those 4 blue circles (Singapore/Guam/Saipan?/Hawaii) hit every packet that can make it in or out of NZ/Australia

Idiot Savant

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:15:03 +1200

(does NZ actually have security clearances? I guess we'll all need them now).

Yes – they're required for work in certain government positions (e.g. MFAT, Defence, spies, and some parts of Treasury, SSC, DPMC, police, customs, and immigration). There's a candidate guide here.

Requiring such clearance for appropriate government work…

nzlemming

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:13:35 +1200

It’s a little fiddly finding these in the docs (the page numbering doesn’t correspond to actual pagination) so here’s the map of where our packets are intercepted (click to embiggen). Far out.

One does wonder where the redacted places are ;-)

Also, hardly surprised by Hawaii but hadn't thought about…

nzlemming

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:09:18 +1200

does NZ actually have security clearances?

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 May 2014 12:06:03 +1200

It’s a little fiddly finding these in the docs (the page numbering doesn’t correspond to actual pagination) so here’s the map of where our packets are intercepted (click to embiggen). Far out.

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:54:52 +1200

Oh OK then, I'll just send him/her into the meetings with the others who argue vehemently over features no one will ever use, they'll disappear into meetings and never be seen again

Steve Barnes

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:53:32 +1200

I don’t have time to look,
Therein lies a big part of the problem.
In a word where technology was sold to us on the basis that it would make our lives “better” and that we would have more leisure time, we actually find the opposite happening, we have less…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:42:02 +1200

will I get a GCSB minder to look over my shoulder all day in case I invent a system that the NSA can’t break into?
Yes but you will be told it is just a pre-sales rep seeing how they can "help" you.

TracyMac

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:41:57 +1200

So this was ALL implemented at the behest of National govts only? Hardly. Labour is obviously just as complicit.

As for the Greens, I don't have time to look, but do they have an anti-spy policy? For NZ's own citizens?

Andre Alessi

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:41:42 +1200

Discussing it at home last night, we decided that basically it was going to mean the GCSB mandating use of routers/Network configurations that were compromisable by the NSA or GCSB. I’d bet that if a network provider found a way to firewall off any command/control signals from outside their network,…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:34:42 +1200

This whole "GCSB must approve all changes to your network" and "all your employees must receive a security clearance" worries me a lot – (does NZ actually have security clearances? I guess we'll all need them now).

I design telecommunications systems, will I get a GCSB minder to look over…

Hilary Stace

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:33:14 +1200

Love the way the discussions on PA merge and overlap. Here is a young disabled political aspirant for the Internet Party writing in Stuff Nation

Andre Alessi

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:32:59 +1200

By coincidence, this week the GCSB and the National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) released their “guidance” for New Zealand network operators, which sets out the expectations under the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Act, which passed last year.

I'm interested in how this is going to work at a practical…

bob daktari

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:31:32 +1200

Wake up... and demand our spy services are closed down pending a fully independent review and possibly new entities formed that serve us not some foreign interests – I think we're safe from invasion or whatever the hell they protect us from in the interim

Idiot Savant

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:30:25 +1200

There doesn't seem to be a way to avoid being observed, sorted, classified and profiled without giving up on modern life.

Vote out the spies?

Steve Barnes

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:25:29 +1200

has it – or would it – waved through software or hardware it knows to contain such a backdoor?
From The Herald article which you quoted... Snowden docs: GCSB links to US spying programmes
* they were briefed on the NSA's efforts to deliberately put backdoors into private companies'…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:20:01 +1200

“Oh yeah!

Put money, National Interest, and Ego together, and now you’re talking about shaping the work writ large.

What country doesn’t want to make the world a better place .... for itself?”

page 96 in the PDF, kind of says it all

page 32 shows where all our packets…

Russell Brown

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:04:41 +1200

And in a very timely fashion, there’s the Internet Party’s “Smile for the GCSB” advert smack bang on this very page.

I know, right? I knew their candidate intake closed yesterday and I was wondering how they'd swap out their campaign. And then I published the post and saw it…

kevinM

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:02:26 +1200

My takeaways:

Given the capabilities listed, and the volume of events captured, it's almost impossible to believe that lots of data about NZ citizens was not recorded.

As Tom has suggested, there's a smugness and arrogance in the slidepacks that deeply disturbs me. The Yanks and the Brits and the…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 15 May 2014 11:01:36 +1200

And in a very timely fashion, there's the Internet Party's "Smile for the GCSB" advert smack bang on this very page.

Andrew E

Thu, 15 May 2014 10:56:34 +1200

One possibility that should be considered is how agencies define 'collection'.

The plain English sense of the word, gathering and storing for future retrieval, is not necessarily the meaning of the word as used by these agencies.

They define 'collection' as when a human being looks at material that's been…

Stephen R

Thu, 15 May 2014 10:47:09 +1200

If I think about TICSA too hard, it just makes me sad.

Tom Semmens

Thu, 15 May 2014 10:40:39 +1200

Fletcher also said:

"First of all it would be illegal if we were doing that and we don’t act outside the framework of the law, that’s a really important point to start with”.

Which sadly when spoken by an intelligence chief of a five eyes nation nowadays simply brings to…

Rob S

Thu, 15 May 2014 10:25:16 +1200

Too messy.
Too complicated.
Nothing to see here, move along
More handwavium from that nice Mr Key.
Where's my tax cut?
I can't see this issue going anywhere, would like to be proved wrong of course but very much doubt it.
Followed by weary sigh.

Public Address

Thu, 15 May 2014 10:25:16 +1200

Discussion from blog post.