I suggest asking instead O, GARE D'ORSAY?

Where Larry is concerned, I'm tempted to trot out some truly atrocious passages from Fleurs du mal in my even more atrocious French accent:

Machine aveugle et sourde, en cruautés féconde!
Salutaire instrument, buveur du sang du monde,
Comment n'as-tu pas honte et…

Meanwhile, for all those smack fans who said 'Neville Key" would suffer at the polls for ignoring the will of THE PEOPLE: ORLY?

These references to Paris' second airport are one of those bits of Internet parlance we could do without – it's far too crass. I suggest asking instead…

Methinks we're seeing another case of single-issue fanatics seriously over-estimating their own importance, and over-playing their hand accordingly.

Where would they jump to? The Kiwi & Family Parties? I think in any case the moral cred of said single-issuers is starting to wear thin.

And now Mr Baldock not only [[http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/2837904/New-campaign-after-smacking-referendum|wants…

Methinks we're seeing another case of single-issue fanatics seriously over-estimating their own importance, and over-playing their hand accordingly.

The Intellectual Resistance fights back!

Wow... "I know you are, but what am I?" *sigh*

What is Michael Moore going on about in todays' Herald?

What is he going on about, full stop? Seriously, that man should be honoured as New Zealand's finest living surrealist.

The Intellectual Resistance fights back!

The Granny: 'Ninny state' versus 'nanny state' in war of words

And courtesy of Devo...

We're through being cool
Eliminate the ninnies and the twits

Gonna bang some heads
Gonna beat some butts
Time to show those evil spuds what's what

"The people are always right, even when they are wrong they are right. Referendums carried out in the passion of the moment can be dangerous."

Spondre is something of a serial blogger/poster in the blogosphere. He pops up everywhere.

He's also been banned from a number of blogs, and was recently booted off as a poster on right wing blogsite No Minister

He seems to be adept at making enemies. Although he did recently "out"…

And on the first page, someone asks for... an edit button! Heh.

And the reply is that it's "in the works" :)

Announcing: Public Address System

Check the paragraph under this heading: The Public Address Café and Forum

Russell made his expectations crystal clear from the start

Can anyone please link to those. Curious.

He's also been banned from a number of blogs, and was recently booted off as a poster on right wing blogsite No Minister

He seems to be adept at making enemies. Although he did recently "out"…

I think he has a stick up his arse about something, but it's hard to tell exactly what.

The same sort of stick that's been irritating Whale for the last few years, I expect. (Obviously not two ends of the same stick though, normal right-wing people don't do that sort…

Bryan Spondre seems to have us nailed in his latest new blog

Did he just call God a pinko? Fundy's ain't going to like thaaaaat...

I think he has a stick up his arse about something, but it's hard to tell exactly what.

Trollbadism?

With a soundtrack by the fabulous Scissor Sisters, naturally...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFKUnfwBPTU

I can't think of the PA term that should apply here but that would make for a fun competition methinks.

Trollbadism?

Bryan Spondre seems to have us nailed in his latest new blog (this one is run by Cameron Slater)

I see that being a brief and unhappy marriage, because…

[T]he 'word of god' style used by blogs like Public Address

¿Que?
Much like this my first first response came easily to mind.

Who’s Bryan Spondre?

I can't think of the PA term that should apply here but that would make for a fun competition methinks.

Bryan Spondre seems to have us nailed in his latest new blog (this one is run by Cameron Slater):

Thanks for your comments gentlemen. I view blogging as a conversation…

Heh, your wonderful KB reputation will be ruined!

Like my virginity, that was put out of my misery a looong time ago. :) But seriously, the shit Sue Bradford has been subjected to is (to state the bleeding obvious) totally out of line and sickening enough without being jacked into…

– they started the petition before the law was finalised

– the number of signatures you need to collect to trigger a referendum which is preposterously large. It's likely a sensible, unloaded…

Think I'm going to regret posting this...

Heh, your wonderful KB reputation will be ruined! :>

You're totally right of course – the term "Kiwiblog Right" quite rightly applies to the community that has congealed over there. It might not apply to the owner of the website, but it's fair…

perhaps they both need to put down the stones and start cleaning the shit-smeared windows in their own glasshouses.

Aw, fuck it — remove the "perhaps", please.

And more amusingly still, our old friend Redbaiter thinks the death threats against Sue Bradford are a false flag plot by the Far Left.

*sigh* Lay out the troll bait, and they will come. With all due disrespect to both The Standard and DPF, perhaps they both need to put…

Use your imagination to complete the following sentence: Old

s never die, they just deny.

why…

Much like 'have you stopped beating your wife yet', the referendum question contains an assumption – that smacking can be a part of good parenting (contrasting to what numerous child welfare agencies and experts believe).

I can't help but notice…

Come on. This isn't an incredibly rare event. Bill English came out not all that long ago and said they weren't going to be cutting taxes. He even suggested they might raise some taxes. etc.

The difference is I don't believe National ever really intended to keep to its tax…

Much respect to John Key. It would have been very easy for him to take the 'popular' route on this, especially with that member's bill landing on his table. For the first time in ages, a politician has gone with the facts instead of... well, acting like a politician.

Come…

Now…

I admitted to no such thing. Even if the question were crystal clear, I could only speculate about people's reasons for answering in a particular way. I say "I feel" when I'm speculating.

You were speculating on what the no voters were saying with their no vote. I don’t think…

(there's a big difference between flaying someone half to death and rapping them over the knuckles with the handle). Can't find references to it anywhere, could you link to the details?

Sorry, Sacha and Ben, I was typing from memory. It was a riding crop.

Being subjective does not put them in the…

However if people believe something then it is true that they believe it. That's all. The world was not actually flat just because most medieval europeans thought so (or were told to think…

And I would like someone who knows more to pick up on the equivalent rules around correcting animals.

It’s poorly worded because it’s loaded, and it is vague. (You as much as admitted to the latter, when you started speaking of your “feeling” as to what the no voters were saying.)

I admitted to no such thing. Even if the question were crystal clear, I could only speculate…

Getting your child our of the way of a speeding train from a distance when your trusty bullwhip was the only extensible option to hand?

It's how Indiana Jones would've done it.

Where it will have short term application is if someone beats their child with a bullwhip, for example, that parent will no longer have the old “reasonable force” defence. Surely that is a good thing?

Actually if force used was not for "the purposes of correction" and "force was reasonable…

Who first coined the name "Anti-smacking Bill" anyway? They should be held to account!

Earlier in the debate someone looked that one up...

Greens draw up their own anti-smacking bill
Monday, 6 October 2003, 12:22 pm
Press Release: Green Party

I Do believe that there is far to much violence to wards children and that something needs to be done, But this crap arse law is not going to do anything worth while.

Yet somehow making it legitimate to smack children is? Personally, I don't think the media has made…

I just said that people would not only want it to be a crime, but would probably realize that it already is. One is not the supporting premise of the other.

So it was a statement of the obvious that was not intended to support a premise? Fine, I’ll take…

I'll always go for the lazy cock-up theory over the advertising department lead conspiracy any day of the week.

Can't remember where I first heard it, but:

– "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by mere stupidity"
– "Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice"

Its a week until the 70th anniversary of the start of the Second World War — here's hoping that is going to inspire some more thoughtful, and historically informed, reflection than Kiwiblog seems capable of.

And shouldn't we really admit the referendum policy needs more work too.What a waste of time.

Not quite my electoral driver, simon.

Granted, Craig, but I didn't have you in mind as a "Ur Views" frother.

It's one thing for voters to complain about hidden agendas and treacherous sell-outs, but the names of the people behind the Section 59 compromise were mentioned somewhere in the news.…

John Key has announced that the government will not support John Boscawen's child-beating bill. Nice to see National on the side…

No you didn't. You voted because you hated Helen Clark, and would have voted for a bag of decomposing toe nail clippings in order to get rid of her.

Not quite my electoral driver, simon. But, hey, I've been quietly smiling at folks — both here and elsewhere — who've…

I wouldn't go that far, Rich, especially where someone like Simon Collins is concerned. I'll always go for the lazy cock-up theory over the advertising department lead conspiracy any day of the week.

Oh, I know you're right. I'm just, y'know, sayin', is all.

It's amusing to see that JK has earned the sobriquet "Neville Key" for his stance on the smacking issue. Because if there's one Hitler stood for, it was his passionate commitment to not smacking children. That's clearly what the annexation of Czechoslovakia was really about.

Yeah, I was tempted to…

Sure, I get the point that you voted “Yes”.

Oh. Fuck. Off.

Oh, and someone really needs to ask Boscawen what the hell is wrong with "criminalising" a father ...

Exactly. Saying, as Boscawen and others have said, that he was "criminalised" makes the father a victim.

Child gets assaulted by father – father is"criminalised" and convicted – father is the victim.…

When I voted National. I voted because I thought Key had guts. How wrong I was. JK has just proven that he is the same as other politicians (Gutless, two faced, liars, that are out for self gratification only.…

Without wanting to get all 'moon landings filmed in a hanger' about it, the 'No' campaign has been taking out an awful lot of full-page, front of shop advertising in the print edition recently....

I wouldn't go that far, Rich, especially where someone like Simon Collins is concerned. I'll always…

How do you "criminalise" someone?

It is the case that if you commit a crime, you're a criminal; but an awareness of the full extent of things that are crimes suggests that few are immune and it's not necessarily as bad as it sounds.

I've had the impression there's a…

As I've just pointed out over on Kiwiblog: Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, nobody is entitled to their own facts.

Thanks for that link, Craig. It's amusing to see that JK has earned the sobriquet "Neville Key" for his stance on the smacking issue. Because if there's one…

For example,…

The Government will fund 15,000 idle Auckland youngsters who could get up to mischief in the school holidays to go on one-week programmes this summer.

– herald today

A quick off topic piece, whether you support this or not this is hardcore nanny state. Nanny is welcomed by all parties…

He has gone up several points in my estimation since that announcement.

From this (blue) corner, I've got to add a hearty ditto ditto! for Phil Goff.

Mary Wilson may understand the difference, but New Zealand's Paper of Record (tm) continues to Epically Fail Stats 101.

As I've [[http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/08/boscawen_smacking_bill_drawn.html#comment-600857|just pointed…

Instead, Key rather politely said "fuck off". Good chap.

He has gone up several points in my estimation since that announcement.

He trots out the "88% of New Zealanders have spoken"

Mary Wilson may understand the difference, but New Zealand's Paper of Record (tm) continues to Epically Fail Stats 101.…

But of course, he never said that either... How the hell do you engage…

Key says he will make an announcement on Boscawen's bill at 4 p.m.

Presumably he'll go for more consulty-wulty, maybe supporting it to a select committee or whatever it is with private members' bills.

Instead, Key rather politely said "fuck off". Good chap.

BTW, I heard Boscawen on Checkpoint and…

I'm still struggling to see how "Should children have the same legal protections from assault as adults do?" is a lot vaguer.

Than the referendum question? Because it makes no specific mention of what protections are being referred to. It's a much wider net than smacking. Also, it's not clear…

Would the result have been different if the question had been:

"Should children have the same legal protections from assault as adults do?"

There are some over at Kiwiblog (old thread) who have stated they should not. When pressed, it was "because they are children".

Can't be arsed hunting down…

The point of the hypothetical alternate question isn’t for you to posit the likely result. It is to highlight one aspect of the actual question that was problematic.

The fact that it's childishly easy to answer in a way that squares with the likely moral intuitions of the masses suggests…

This does make me wonder why there was no public education campaign to go along with the law change. Is it because it was a private member's bill drawn out of the lottery?

I believe it was part of Sue Bradford's proposal that a public education programme would go along…

I do have a proposal though. If we are going to allow parents to hit their children when other options have failed I suggest this...

when somebody is caught speeding they are issued a ticket. And then if that doesn't work and…

But for a fraction of the cost and kerfuffle of a referendum, some polling company could have found out for us.

And we'd probably have gotten a rather less ambiguous question, since polling companies stake their reputations (and commercial survival) on the quality and credibility of the work that appears…

You're trying pretty hard to get this begging the question thing, but I didn't give you an "argument". I gave you a likely answer. The answer to “should a smack as part of good husbandly correction be a criminal offence?” would be uncontroversially "Yes".

The point of the hypothetical alternate…

I did, but here it is again:

Aha...I missed that post.

Yeah, probably it would get a different result. But it is also a different question. As in, it does not have the same parse at all. It does not amount to the same question. It's a lot vaguer.

Still…

Still think this is a great way to make laws?

The simplest answer to any change to the law would have been that originally proposed by Sue Bradford (before Labour and National got together and amended it), which was just to remove section 59 from the law.

Children then could…

I personally doubt so many would be keen to answer "no" to that wording.

But for a fraction of the cost and kerfuffle of a referendum, some polling company could have found out for us.

Perhaps. Give me the question.

I did, but here it is again:

Should children have the same legal protections from assault as adults do?

We could then proceed to the implications of the "no" answer to the question that was asked:

Larry Baldock, one of the sponsors(?) of the petition…

Would the result have been different if the question had been:

"Should children have the same legal protections from assault as adults do?"

Martin then replied that to him it was the same as the question posed.

I personally doubt so many would be keen to answer…

Ben, "when did you stop beating your wife?" is a straightforward question. Just not particularly useful.

It's also easy to answer. "Never", is a true answer to that question, in my case. I never started, so I have never stopped. Yes it is a poor question, because a "never" answer…

But at the end of the day, I'd say anal sex is as harmful as the person who is engaging in it thinks it is.

I'm not a doctor, but I think that anal sex, or indeed any other activity which could cause harm, could be a lot more harmful…

Perhaps instead of accusing other people of "Epic fail" you should read up a bit more yourself.

Perhaps you shouldn't quote me out of context. I did not accuse anyone in particular of an epic fail. That might…

Yeah, Um. Your link serves to show that the anti-reform people struggled to even get the signatures for their petition. It does not show that "the public" was against legalized homosexuality, just that some members of the public were.

Actually Ben, even given the many dubious practices that went into…

Would the result have been different if the question had been:

"Should children have the same legal protections from assault as adults do?"

To me, that was the question that was asked. Yes, I know that the wording was different, but the true intention was clear enough.

Why bother...have a survey. Personally I don't think CIRs are crap democracy at all. I think representative democracy is crap. CIRs are far, far more credible than surveys.

Which really shows you don't know much about surveys. A robust survey will show nuance and explore attitudes and beliefs through successive…

Umm.

Yeah, Um. Your link serves to show that the anti-reform people struggled to even get the signatures for their petition. It does not show that "the public" was against legalized homosexuality, just that some members of the public were.

Basic human rights like voting, equal protection under law, etc…

Will two years and hundreds of thousands of signatures and over a million votes, achieve less than a lottery?

In response to the hypothetical “should a smack as part of good husbandly correction be a criminal offence?” you answered, in part, “to try it would be a criminal offense.” So what? That’s the question: should it be a crime.

You're trying pretty hard to get this begging the question…

Wheee.

Presumably he'll go for more consulty-wulty, maybe supporting it to a select committee or whatever it is with private members' bills.

For the first time ever, I find myself half-hoping National's polling numbers remain high. Somehow I…

Homosexual law reform was not unpopular, at least in NZ.

Umm.

And indigenous rights are not non-controversial.

Basic human rights like voting, equal protection under law, etc for indigenous people are controversial these days? They were often controversial at the time, not so much now.

Mmmm and criminalizing smacking is…

They all went through over great popular opposition, and have subsequently been proven to be non-controversial long term. The same end result would have occurred if they'd happened years earlier.

That's highly disputable. They could have led to colossal strife, and retrogression. How do you know? It's also a false…

Just so y'all know.

A members' ballot was held today.

The Crimes (Reasonable Parental Control and Correction) Amendment Bill in the name of John Boscawen was drawn.

See my exclusive advance report on page 2 of this thread ;)

Very bad luck for Key. Perhaps it was the power of…

Your answer is confused. To say “indeed to try it would be a criminal offense” is a begging the question fallacy.

Could you elaborate? I'm giving an answer that could easily be consistent with the question and the views of society

On the fallacy? Wikipedia seems to have it right.…

Yes, democracy is a slow system. Convincing people to change is indeed much harder than forcing them to. But it's a much more lasting and effective method. It's rather like the alternatives to smacking, in that respect. Note that most of the changes you describe started in democracies.

They all…

Ben your argument (majority decides moral issues) feels like the same argument that slowed down law changes that improved the lot of every minority group in history – slaves, homosexuals, womens rights, indigenous people. It feels distasteful.

Yes, democracy is a slow system. Convincing people to change is indeed much…

A members' ballot was held today.

The Crimes (Reasonable Parental Control and Correction) Amendment Bill in the name of John Boscawen was drawn.

hat-tip Trevor Mallard.

Hammer time?

Rofflenui

My parents want to hit me, so hard
Makes me say, oh my Lord
Thank you, for giving me
Amended Section 59 supported cross-party.

You can't touch this (child).

Where did I make that jump?

Here:

When you pit yourself against 88% of people who could be bothered answering, then you've got a problem. I totally disagree that issues of morality should be decided by experts, I have never had the slightest time for this point of view. There…

Your answer is confused. To say “indeed to try it would be a criminal offense” is a begging the question fallacy.

Could you elaborate? I'm giving an answer that could easily be consistent with the question and the views of society.

Steve, it's not required that the referendum question addresses…

Seems like an easy one. No good husbandly correction could include a smack, indeed to try it would be a criminal offense.

Your answer is confused. To say “indeed to try it would be a criminal offense” is a begging the question fallacy.

I think a better demonstration of the…

By my claim in particular there was that if 88% of people think they weren't harmed by smacking,

You're assuming a bit there.

Heh, I do quite carefully say if .

I can't agree that this set of laws isn't motivated by morality and appeals to science can only bolster…

By my claim in particular there was that if 88% of people think they weren't harmed by smacking,

You're assuming a bit there. You could have been smacked and believe you were harmed by it, but still not believe it should be a criminal offense. Once again, the ambiguous question…

I fail to see how you can jump from 'morally right' to 'the majority'. As James points out, the majority is often wrong, including on issues of morality. 30 years from now this debate will be dead, smacking will almost universally be a thing of history.

Where did I make…

Unfortunately, history is littered with examples of the majority being wrong, from indigenous rights to comic books to homosexuality to Britney Spears selling lots of records.

And also of minorities being wrong. By my claim in particular there was that if 88% of people think they weren't harmed by smacking,…

I totally disagree that issues of morality should be decided by experts, I have never had the slightest time for this point of view. There are no moral experts. When you make something a crime, it's become an issue of morality, rather than practicality

I fail to see how you…

When you're pitting yourself against the anecdotal evidence of one interlocutor, you've got an easy win. When you pit yourself against 88% of people who could be bothered answering, then you've got a problem.

Unfortunately, history is littered with examples of the majority being wrong, from indigenous rights to comic…

I suggest that it's not a term most people have too much trouble with. Only people who actually want to misunderstand it can find ways to quibble over this.

the question was subjectively loaded and vague. i would suggest that there is a very wide variation in the way people…

if the writers of the question really wanted to remove ambiguity, they could have asked: "Should assualting* a child be a criminal offence? *There is the legal definition of assault: ..."

but the writers wanted subjectiveness and ambiguity. in truckloads. so, a completely meaningless exercise was the result.

That would…

Hammer time?

Rofflenui

putting a subjective qualification clause in a refurendum question ("good parental correction") makes the refurendum quite trivial and pointless, imo.

people will read into it what they want to. there is no way to discern what people understood the question to mean.…

Mad props.

The question was: "Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence?"

"Should a smack – -"

First of all, what defines a smack? The word smack is really just a nicer way of saying hit, because…

“should a smack as part of good husbandly correction be a criminal offence?”

Seems like an easy one. No good husbandly correction could include a smack, indeed to try it would be a criminal offense. That one would get an easy win for the "Yes" vote. I think a better…

STOP.............

Hammer time?

To opt out is to not be heard. That's why answered the question that was asked. It wasn't hard, it wasn't really confusing…

I wouldn’t say the question was really confusing, just poorly worded. (Confer the hypothetical posed earlier in this thread: “should a smack as part of good husbandly…

"Should a referendum that has been boycotted by many including both the prime minister and the leader of the opposition be able to have any influence in New Zealand?"

Yes, apparently.

"We" apparently chose not to listen to them.

The people in society that deal with the end result of the “child abuse” should be involved in creating something that deconstructs "the abuse". Those are the people we (government) should listen to first on behalf of children and infants at risk.

But that happened. All the major child welfare…

If “government” is capable of leadership it could harness the issue and lead it in the direction to create something right.

The problem could easily be solved in a matter of weeks with a good supply of railcars, and helicopters with long enough range to drop them in the…

Motoring offences *are* criminal offences, like all others.

Speeding is illegal. Speeding is an offence. But it is not a crime. The definition of "crime" in the Crimes Act makes quite clear that this is not that case.

Our law has a basic hierarchy – infringement offences, summary offences, and…

I've been busted for speeding a few times. But I've never had a criminal conviction for it. I would certainly oppose a law that made light speeding a criminal offense, whether or not it gave the cops discretion to decide whether they like me enough not to bust me.

Motoring…

Smacking may be used for the purpose of correction

If that goes through I know 2 million NZ voters that need a bit of correcting. Will baseball bats be allowed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izzKUoxL11E

yrs lightly
The Supreme Being
aka Duane Untwothers

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/lifematters/smack-the-child-go-to-jail-parents-pressured-20090822-euef.html

New Zealands has a dismal record of childrens rights and the recent UN HCR asking for NZ to RAISE the age of criminal responsibility adds to it. I can't understand how anyone could deny rights to a child…

The problem isn't really the law or the fact that $9 million that could have been spent better elsewhere was spent on “this”.

The problem is that a lot of the households that are involved in beating children to death have a prevalence of drug and alcohol use or…

Are laws often changed because of what people believe to be true?

I hope so.

I'm sure you could find a million drivers who would agree that speed has no influence on road safety and should not be prosecuted.

Far be it from me to suggest speculation.

I'm sure you could find a million drivers who would agree that speed has no influence on road safety and should not be prosecuted.

I don't expect Yellow Pages-like briefing books on every area of public policy, but a little respect for my ability to think beyond soundbites and human interest sob stories would be appreciated. And I'm still to be convinced that CIR add anything meaningful to public policy debates worth having.

I…

If it ain't broke...why 'fix' it?

I think it's quite clear that large numbers of New Zealanders weren't sure what the law had become. So one reason is: certainty.

The media has a helluva lot to answer for.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

"And fifthly, the ads on radio are absurd. Saying that parents have always had the right not to smack and imagine how they would feel if a law change said that all parents had…

Sometimes drivers travel at 5km over the limit (a criminal offense ) but the police will excercise discretion. Another driver may…

geoff

I won't share my ignorance re: whether that would apply to assault too. I just thought I'd share what I found in my random glances:

They are of course guiding principles only, not a set of rigid rules :)

I imagine the defence might mention the powers granted to legal guardians under the Care of Children Act 2004.

I won't share my ignorance re: whether that would apply to assault too. I just thought I'd share what I found in my random glances:

Principles relevant to child’s welfare and best…

What Josh said.

Some of what Josh said is covered by section 48 of the Crimes Act. That's the "defence of others" provision. It applies to everyone, so I agree you could argue some parts of section 59 are unnecessary.

Around this point I like to ask whether a legal…

Scotty: Just kidding. :)

YOU THINK THIS IS A JOKE DO YOU!
JUST YOU WAIT TIL YOUR FATHER GETS HOME!
WHERE'S MY WOODEN SPOON!
WHERE'S YOUR RULER!
WHAT?, YOU LOST IT!
JUST YOU WAIT TIL YOUR FATHER GET"S HOME!

MRS BALDOCK!!!

I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone arguing that burping a baby is currently illegal.

Aw man, that notion would cause a highly entertaining uproar over a Kiwiblog, if somehow we could suggest it is so with a metaphorical straight face.

but you can do it man. Just give it up!

GET A PERM!

I was merely pointing out that there are actually sensible reasons for not repealing section 59 in its entirety. Otherwise some day to day parenting routines would be criminal.

What Josh said.

I don't believe we need to make our laws so detailed so as to prevent the entire legal…

Scotty. Just don't hit your kids. Its like giving up smoking. A time of withdrawl symptoms, like itching, burning palms, sweating, but you can do it man. Just give it up!

So because I point out that the law is messy and uncertain in some areas, that makes me a…

Holding back a struggling child who is trying to run across a busy road, burping a windy baby etc. Alll would be assaults if s59 went altogether.

I think sometimes we need to remind ourselves that laws are interpreted by people who aren't as moronic as Larry Baldock. Burping a…

I find all the discussion around when you can and can't hit a child creepy – is it prevention or correction – wtf!.

It may be creepy, but understanding what the law allows parents to do is kind of essential to the debate about whether the law should change.

I hope the one action step that should come out of this from Key and Co is a process to ensure that we no longer have to waste time and money on appallingly worded referendums.

I have the sneaking suspicion that a Citizen Initiated Referenda Act, Repeal Bill would receive…

Larry Baldock is particularly creepy and evil – virtually frothing at the mouth at the prospect of more freedom to hit children.

The whole tenet has been…

As my daughter in law suggests:

"Should stupid referendum questions, as part of a healthy democratic society, be legal in New Zealand?"

It's not clear whether people voting No want a law change or are simply agreeing…

Tim: "This little clip kind of sums up my thoughts on this idea that a smack can be useful parental correction."
You are not really serious are you Tim? I think that Alfie's clip is showing that some of the actions we take don't work like we think. He…

If it isn't stopping them doing it *in the act*, it's not preventative, surely?

You may be right. That's certainly what I think the law probably means. But I also concede it's unclear, because other people I have spoken to about what the law means have an entirely different view.…

I am writing in support of the repeal of section 59 of the Crimes act.

Our recent referendum on the "smacking" issue contained a misleading question, ironically a kin to, "When did you stop beating your wife?", and the results of the referendum cannot be used…

For example, the wording of s59 may also support an argument that inflicting harm after the event may be preventative.

Surely the bit where its say "whatever I said before, no force for correction" and then says, "did you see back there where I said that about no force for…

Er, seems pretty straightforward to me. You can stop a kid doing something by whatever means are necessary; you just can't hit them because they did it/tried to do it. What's confusing there?

It would help if the law actually said that. It doesn’t.

For example, the wording of s59…

Another reason not to get exercised by the whole thing: Baldock's party is a joke and will likely remain that way. And National voters are hardly going to desert to Labour over this issue. So what's the risk to Key if he does nothing?

Or Goff for that matter. As…