Poll finds smacking making comeback

Brought to you by Family First and Curia Market Research, no less.

(Maybe we should have an independent crown prosecutor, as in many overseas jurisdictions, but that's a different matter)

We do have crown prosecutors. I presume the difference here is that they get involved after the investigation, whereas some places overseas they get involved more while the police are still doing…

Militant fundamentalists are profoundly morally calloused to the suffering and brutalisation of anyone who experiences family violence of any kind whatsoever.

Back in the eighties, Patricia Bartlett disgusted me profoundly by campaigning against the criminalisation of spousal rape that National Party Attorney-General Jim MacLay. Throughout…

Some of us just think it's safer if the law (or the Prime Minister) doesn't encourage people to hit their children.

Um... I'd like the Prime Minister (and Sue Bradford and everyone else who isn't on anti-psychotics) to keep repeating that swatting your kid on the backside is not going…

How can the court possibly make any decisions unless the case is brought before it, which implies a decision must be…

So. naked women are a public danger now?

The Police cordoned off the area because it is a crime scene.

Join the dots. The resulting picture does not look pleasant.

An interpretation that is not strongly supported by, umm, the legislation he actually voted for.

But it probably is supported by many of the people who voted for him. To which does he owe his allegiance? The law or the voters? He finds the middle path, the path of least…

Another thread would be interested to know that the ninth-bestselling NZ novel of 2009 is The Trowenna Sea, mostly by Witi Ihimaera.

Since he was going to buy all remaining stock, shouldn't we have expected the run would sell out?

So. naked women are a public danger now? They might breastfeed or something?. And lower family values or something. Hmmm.

Though the headlines tend to invite that sort of "WTF?" reading, I imagine that nakedness per se would not be the issue. Not even nudists would tend to wander the…

... and I don't really trust people with financial agendas.

I always find it amusing how those opposing the science behind climate change, always argue that the scientists are falsifying their data so as to get funding for their research. I find that statements along these…

One of its findings was that "members of the public feel more confident expressing opinions on others' motivations and tactics than they do expressing opinions on scientific issues".

I feel that way all the time. Despite the fact I'm no denier, one of the things I find most…

I saw a Close Up viewers poll about the credibilty of Wishart's Air Con over Gareth Morgan's book and it came back at 77/23 in favour of Wishart!!! WTF!!!! This is what we're up against people. I find it hard to see this in a positive light...anybody???

George Monbiot [[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2009/dec/07/climate-change-denial-industry|wrote…

Police have cordoned off part of Papakura after a naked woman was reported in the area.

So. naked women are a public danger now? They might breastfeed or something?. And lower family values or something. Hmmm.

Whereas Kim Hill ran him a icy-cold shower :-)

From a firehose, by the sounds of it. The listener feedback that followed was something else too...

They managed to completely trivialise 9/11 by letting Mike Hosking run a warm bath for Richard Gage a couple of weeks back.

Whereas Kim Hill ran him a icy-cold shower :-)

No surprises. They managed to completely trivialise 9/11 by letting Mike Hosking run a warm bath for Richard Gage a couple of weeks back. I'd be interested to see a poll of Close Up viewers on that issue.

That was a shocker. Did they brief Hosking for more than five…

As for last night's Close Up, TVNZ has plumbed new depths of superficiality. Outrageous that the state broadcaster can trivialise public debate on climate change like this.

No surprises. They managed to completely trivialise 9/11 by letting Mike Hosking run a warm bath for Richard Gage a couple of weeks…

Some of us just think it's safer if the law (or the Prime Minister) doesn't encourage people to hit their children.

I agree with Russell; I was inclined to give John Key a good deal of credit for how he handled the results of the referendum, and the whole passage…

so merely the dumbing of a dumb

The almighty poll foiled.
I demand an intelligence test.......
from...those ...people.

http://www.goldfishwisdom.co.nz/?t=32

I saw a Close Up viewers poll about the credibilty of Wishart's Air Con over Gareth Morgan's book and it came back at 77/23 in favour of Wishart!!! WTF!!!! This is what we're up against people. I find it hard to see this in a positive light...anybody???

Yes, the dumbing…

The Dom-Post missed the memo, RB, and is happily quoting Bob again today

I guess they figure that given his consistent willingness to champion violent abusers, he speaks for a constituency.

Because it was about smacking. We all know that. And it was the Greens that started that one. And to Key " okay" in this context doesn't necessarily mean " lawful".

You're the one obsesses with 'smacking", Dave. Some of us just think it's safer if the law (or the…

Why is there is concern that the PM has said light smacking is okay (read lawful) if the law we passed wasn't about smacking at all?

Because it was about smacking. We all know that. And it was the…

As for Wishart on Close Up (which should be Closed Up!), it must…

Speaking of silly beliefs

Someone help me out here. I saw a Close Up viewers poll about the credibilty of Wishart's Air Con over Gareth Morgan's book and it came back at 77/23 in favour of Wishart!!! WTF!!!! This is what we're up against people. I find it hard to…

If both the police and the courts had right to decide upon the inconsequentiallity, that would also alleviate this state of affairs.

This is nonsense; the court has the right to find that no assault occurred. It can't find that no assault occurred by virtue of parental correction, but that's…

Did I just hear 3news refer to the Australian Swimming child sex abuse case as "the pedo-speedo scandal"?

I wouldn't put it past them. The number of headlines I remember in Oz that started off "Blacks say...".

I hope that GP has his licence to practise revoked – and charges…

Many thanks for those marvellous YouTube clips.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/3139627/Four-year-old-hospitalised-after-botched-circumcision

Because it's religious Mark, so we can do what we want with the little fucker's foreskin.

Mystified as…

The comments to that page are also well worth reading.

Rather, the Judge formed the view that the case could have been resolved with a lesser, included charge, which was unavailable to the Crown due to the election of the defence of a trial by jury.

This paragraph near the end of the Scoop article implies that the system was…

If both the police and the courts had right to decide upon the inconsequentiallity, that would also alleviate this state of affairs.

And the judge in the uncle "pillow" case threw it out, presumably because he felt it was inconsequential...

Amongst the Latta tweets was a link to a infant helmet called a Thudguard.

Man, one of those looks like it could seriously interfere with a parent's sacred right to impart "loving correction." This Latta fella is looking more and more PC every second.

If David Bain becomes a parent he is more likely than most to be prosecuted for any smacks.

Assuming that means you don't agree with this state of affairs, then that would require every case, not just the one you cited, to go to trial so the judiciary can decide on the facts. That would seem somewhat impractical.

"Require" stripping discretion off the police? No, what is objected…

Assuming that means you don't agree with this state of affairs, then that would require *every* case, not just the one you cited, to go to trial so the judiciary can decide on the facts. That would seem somewhat impractical.

So impractical that it has never been the case. Police…

But that doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't hit, slap or punch anyone of any age, the law says so, and you can be prosecuted for hitting people if the circumstances warrant.

Rich – that was basically my point. People – including some here – were outraged that the…

Some cases deserve prosecution more than others.

Family First slated the police in support of a man with an extensive history of domestic violence and an armed robbery conviction. In pursuing that support, they minimised and flat-out lied about the facts of the case.

Must be prosecuted. Obvious really.

It…

They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers.

They're still laughing at Fulton, to be fair.

Sorry, he's otherwise engaged coming up with a press release on the role of slapstick orgasms in the decline and fall of civilization. :)

Don't tease me like that, Craig, or I'll be hanging out on Scoop pressing F5 every two seconds for the rest of the afternoon!

What part of "the law is working, and we're not going to repeal it" tests your comprehension skills as badly as Bob McCoskrie's?

I understand what he's saying, if that's what you're asking. I think I also understand why he's saying it, and that's what Steve and I were talking…

Some cases deserve prosecution more than others.

Family First slated the police in support of a man with an extensive history of domestic violence and an armed robbery conviction. In pursuing that support, they minimised and flat-out lied about the facts of the case.

Must be prosecuted. Obvious really.…

Quick! Someone ask for McCroskie's take on that!

Sorry, he's otherwise engaged coming up with a press release on the role of slapstick orgasms in the decline and fall of civilization. :)

It's mildly amusing to see the teabaggers now dissing Mr Latta as being in the pay of the Nanny State. When they sense they're backed into a corner, they typically reach for the big red button that reads 'DEFCON 1'.

Well, it's clear from Latta's Twitter feed that he really…

Isn't that a Gershwin tune?

Why yes it is, and one of Fred and Ginger's finest moments to boot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Lq9Xa9GAU

Though for full effect, you can't go past Ella and Louis...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppFVmnmpGz8

Steve, I kind of agree, but cunning seems inevitable in high ranking politicians. It can (and will) backfire,…

No, don't be silly.

I'm tempted to see this as evidence to the contrary to your view that things will blow over. But welcome in from the lurking cold anyway, Julie.

I did say "maybe"! Ever the optimist, but thanks for the welcome :)

Oh, and it isn't that cold out there at all,…

They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers.

Isn't that a Gershwin tune?

Strikes me that it's actually quite a cunning position of Key's

And "Cunning" is not a trait that I appreciate in a Prime Minister, I would rather see consistency, compassion and an understanding of the responsibilities of being in that position.
Cunning may work for a money trader but a…

I thought police discretion regarding prosecution was exactly that — and it's constitutionally and legally rather dodgy for any Government to be issuing "instructions" on that score.

I was just researching this, and *think* that prosecution is a Royal (e.g. governmental) Prerogative in NZ. A lawyer would know.

If our…

They either spell it out in legislation or stay the hell out of it, I thought, but am quite happy to be told otherwise.

The change of law means that no longer do we have an independent judiciary deciding what is "reasonable" punishment of a child. Now a government department…

– Smacking *is* assault, like any unwanted physical contact, right?

Sensibly, the police and courts might consider (in line with the Prosecution Guidelines) that the conduct doesn't "merit the attention of the criminal law", for instance.

But that doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't hit, slap or punch…

PS I thought it might be the child discipline law which transformed me into an ex-lurker :)

I'm tempted to see this as evidence to the contrary to your view that things will blow over. But welcome in from the lurking cold anyway, Julie. Looking forward to more :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A&feature=related

I think that will happen. Nothing's going to change if (a) John Key or (b) Labour lead government. Which probably takes us to 2014 and the legislation having been in place for seven years.

I think it's way too early to be sure. Public feeling on smacking isn't going to…

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident"

I really hate that Schopenhauer quote, it misses out that fact that all lies also pass through those first two stages.

Attributed to Carl Sagan:

"But the fact…

and it is the government that instructs the police on the nature of relative inconsequence.

Serious question, Angus: You sure about that? I thought police discretion regarding prosecution was exactly that — and it's constitutionally and legally rather dodgy for any Government to be issuing "instructions" on that score. They…

Maybe the debate will go on so long that eventually the media and public will just get tired of it and subsequently sideline the noise-makers due to lack of interest

I think that will happen. Nothing's going to change if (a) John Key or (b) Labour lead government. Which probably…

Which is not what the law Key voted for actually says, but apparently he, not Parliament, is the supreme authority on such matters.

He is functionally the supreme authority. The law is subject to police prosecution except when the offence is so “inconsequential that there is no public interest in…

More notably, this same story features PM Key basically giving parents carte blanche to go back to smacking their kids provided it's "light". Which is not what the law Key voted for actually says, but apparently he, not Parliament, is the supreme authority on such matters

Exactly. If he actually…

So now every time someone prominent is quoted in the media, we have to assume it's inaccurate until proven otherwise?

That sounds like it could get a little messy, Craig.

Yes, indeed. But it's even messier when The Herald fabricates quotes, doesn't bother subjecting people like Bob McCoskrie to basic…

"It does occur to me that he'd be better off dispensing light smacks to errant Cabinet ministers."

..and,in the case of Gerry Brownlie, light snacks?

Family First slated the police in support of a man with an extensive history of domestic violence and an armed robbery conviction. In pursuing that support, they minimised and flat-out lied…

I'll just say that there's no magical tipping point where a lie becomes the truth through sheer repetition.

It was a comment made a press conference in front of umpteen journalists, which three different papers from three different companies have all reported. Let's bag the Herald for the umpteen things…

Which I find rather ironic given how relaxed everyone around here was with Clark proffering an instant opinion on absolutely everything...

... as prime minister. As far as I recall, when she proffered a personal opinion she would generally identify it as such.

Meanwhile, what part of "the law works…

I'll just say that there's no magical tipping point where a lie becomes the truth through sheer repetition.

So now every time someone prominent is quoted in the media, we have to assume it's inaccurate until proven otherwise?

That sounds like it could get a little messy, Craig.

Stand over there, I'll get the fire hose.

If you would be so kind.

Key doesn't seem to realise that there's a difference between his position (on an issue) as the representative of the government and his personal opinion. He's forever answering the latter when being questioned on the former.

Which I find rather ironic given how relaxed everyone around here was with Clark…

Because I'm always up for rushing in where angels fear to tread:

Stand over there, I'll get the fire hose.

Which is quite an assumption to make where The Herald is concerned. Sorry, but someone had to say it.

Also quoted in stuff, the ODT etc. I think we can take this one as accurate.

Given that PC means nothing more nor less than "something right wingers don't like", you'll have to pop over to kiwiblog and see if they're for it (in which case it's the "common sense of mainstream New Zealanders") or against it (in which case it's "PC").

Because I'm always up…

Exactly. If he actually said that, the Herald should've been right up in his grill about it. I thought Key had handled things very well until I read that. Perhaps he's a friggin' idiot after all.

The Herald quotes him as saying:

"Lightly smacking a child will be in the…

Exactly. If he actually said that...

Which is quite an assumption to make where The Herald is concerned. Sorry, but someone had to say it.

The Herald quotes him as saying:

The Herald also had to print a grovelling apology to Sharon Shipton for quoting her saying that she was…

I thought that would be being PC.

Given that PC means nothing more nor less than "something right wingers don't like", you'll have to pop over to kiwiblog and see if they're for it (in which case it's the "common sense of mainstream New Zealanders") or against it (in which…

More notably, this same story feature PM Key basically giving parents carte blanche to go back to smacking their kids provided it's "light". Which is not what the law Key voted for actually says, but apparently he, not Parliament, is the supreme authority on such matters

Exactly. If he actually…

So it isn't about the treatment of children at all, but who the parents are. It starts…

It's mildly amusing to see the teabaggers now dissing Mr Latta as being in the pay of the Nanny State. When they sense they're backed into a corner, they typically reach for the big red button that reads 'DEFCON 1'.

It's not even remotely surprising though, is it? This debate…

But that will show up in the expense accounts that are now being published.

Proverbs -The True Security
3:31 Do not envy the violent and do not choose any of their ways;
3:32 for the perverse are an abomination to the Lord, but the upright are in his…

Someone more qualified but anonymous would have been easily overlooked by the headline-skimming majority of the population.

Latta did strike me…

More notably, this same story feature PM Key basically giving parents carte blanche to go back…

Right now he's telling me to eat another afghan

Don't worry, that's in the bible too.

"I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another's flesh during the stress of the siege imposed on them by the enemies who seek their…

The Lord has spoken.

Right now he's telling me to eat another afghan.

Oooh. Are we doing bible quotes?

Exactly. As Dawkins illustrates very clearly in The God Delusion , wherever we get our moral code from, it's sure not the Bible. Divinely-mandated infanticide and incest being exhibits A and B. Much of it is reprehensible by modern standards – and any…

Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."

Oooh. Are we doing bible quotes? How about:

Psalms 137:9: "How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock"

However I am also frustrated that the continual (FF) debate over individual cases diverts focus away from the groundbreaking repeal of section 59.…

Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."

Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the…

I got at the Grey Lynn Farmers' Market yesterday

Has it at all improved or is it still Kraftbomb with a different name?

Just a note; the Grey Lynn Farmers Market occurs the first three Sundays in the month. The last Sunday is reserved for the Kraftbomb market.

As I…

So I was also worried about him being in this role, but he seems to have done it ok.

Here's Family First's misleading version, which grants that the man charged is "no saint". No, he isn't.

These people really give me the shits.

I am disappointed that this is not as I hurriedly surmised a thread lamenting Bob the baby's departure back to the fertile plains of the mainland.

Hee. I read it that way too, except I thought Russell had written "See you, Latte Bob." Quite the sophisticate, that wee lad.

(Vegan pizza, on the other hand. Oof, what's the point?)

Not sure about vegan pizza, but I make shit hot (number of compliments = proof) vegaquarian pizza. Anchovies are often necessary. Once you live on meatless, a whole new world opens up for Vegetables.Pizza, no exception :)

At least they weren't vegetarian.

That wouldn't necessarily be such a bad thing, you know. (Vegan pizza, on the other hand. Oof, what's the point?)

If there was ever an example that demonstrated that the journalistic he-said/he-said "balance" model is broken, it's this story.

There's noting 'broken' about the idea of balancing a story, but when you keep going back to a poisoned well whose only value is as a reliably outrageous soundbite factory that's…

Arthur Schopenhauer

Psychopaths are glib and superficially charming, and…

We might be witnessing the first small steps to social sanity, a first step towards sending the message to future parents to treat children with the care they deserve.

And dare I say it might,…

I got at the Grey Lynn Farmers' Market yesterday

Has it at all improved or is it still Kraftbomb with a different name?

Now THIS is journalism! Check the second par! Oh yes!

Surely the EMA is pumping up rhetoric against personal grievances before the Tories gut them.

BTW,…

"I should have been able to separate Latta's professional competence from his entertainment work, which I don't greatly like."

I strongly disagree. Lattas professionalism is compromised every time he does his entertainment job. The best the man can do is sooth the minds of the worried well, or good parents.

…

And, it goes without saying, to stop getting Bob McCoskrie on the speed-dial as if his opinion counts for anything at all.

And yet TV3 went to McCoskrie for his comments on the Latta report. If there was ever an example that demonstrated that the journalistic he-said/he-said "balance" model is…

I strongly disagree. Lattas professionalism is compromised every time he does his entertainment job. The best the man can do is sooth the minds of the worried well, or good parents.…

oh dave, russell may be many things, but he is not the source of all info for all journos.

Actually, I was busy making delicious pizzas, with mozarella from Harvest and bases I got at the Grey Lynn Farmers' Market yesterday. At least they weren't vegetarian.

The recommendations include:

• The establishment of a new parent support helpline within CYF so that parents who have questions or concerns about how they are being treated can be dealt with more quickly.
• The immediate publication of guidelines for social workers dealing with child abuse reports…

find the taskforce suggestions yourself! you only had to listen to the 5.00pm news on national radio to hear most of them.

Such as? If you want journos to focus on these, could you have perhaps mentioned what these suggestions are ?

I am also minded to wonder how many times the Family First family violence fairy tales were reported as something like fact by news organisations that could actually have asked some real questions about them.

Follow up question: Why aren't people who can't — or can't be bothered — distinguishing…

I am also minded to wonder how many times the Family First family violence fairy tales were reported as something like fact by news organisations that could actually have asked some real questions about them.