Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Science: it's complicated

Joe Wylie

Fri, 22 Jun 2018 10:08:58 +1200

In your selective about science face, Greenpeace.

If you're serious about clobbering Greenpeace over their scientific selectivity you'll have to dig a bit deeper than linking to a shallow puff piece that appears to offer little more than highly selective quotes from corporate PR material. While New Scientist has published…

Kyle Matthews

Sun, 14 Aug 2011 00:05:43 +1200

but it seems to me that there’s a big big cultural factor to depression

Also in asthma I understand, which you would think is a physiological problem.

Cheers to Bart for all his posts in this thread which I've just read through tonight. Interesting and convincing about a number of…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 07 Aug 2011 12:31:50 +1200

And, tying a few comments together, the style of Kevin McCloud with the stools we all must endure sometimes ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SGSq0VMe9w

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 07 Aug 2011 08:34:08 +1200

stand easy...
there’s a stool in the middle of the kitchen floor
Really?

...an oft noted by-product
of people talking
"out of their arse"....
;- )

but seriously, a stool is a fine example
spineless, armless and useless with only two legs

There are two settings for reality
balance and…

Steve Barnes

Sun, 07 Aug 2011 01:44:23 +1200

That it also creates things that we all find valuable and useful is remarkable,

Alan Turing probably, found Butterflies aestheticly pleasing.
Not that there is anything wrong with that
But it is interesting in the fact that "Normality" is considered mean (the…

Steve Barnes

Sun, 07 Aug 2011 01:12:17 +1200

Watching Kevin what-sit on TV tonight,

I am forever tortured by that man's existence.
Try designing a house after your partner has discovered this property porn star.
AND... My ability to have any influence over interior design has been extinctified by "The Chairwoman"
[link removed by executive order]

Bart Janssen

Sun, 07 Aug 2011 01:06:47 +1200

Bearing in mind that rather a large amount of wine has been drunk tonight, Creon is right, science ultimately for it's own self. That it also creates things that we all find valuable and useful is remarkable, however it is also unpredictable. What is predictable (always) is that really good…

Rob Stowell

Sun, 07 Aug 2011 00:42:21 +1200

And a true piece of data is confined to that particular moment.

there’s a stool in the middle of the kitchen floor

Really?
Not any more. I moved it. With my bare hands :)
experiencing my place in the world in a way that would make the slings and arrows…

Sacha

Sun, 07 Aug 2011 00:13:12 +1200

a product of military research. I could say that the exception of this rule is

not quite :)

Steve Barnes

Sun, 07 Aug 2011 00:01:26 +1200

A quick Google™ suggests that "Affluenza" may well be worth reading,

Steve Barnes

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:54:27 +1200

Damn you and your Wiki foo and your pendanticallity.
Teh Interwebz Which, in turn led to... ie out of which was born...
"The World-Wide Web was developed to be a pool of human knowledge, and human culture, which would allow collaborators in remote sites to share their ideas…

Sacha

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:47:02 +1200

the internet, which was born out of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arpanet

Susannah Shepherd

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:38:37 +1200

A quick Google™ suggests that "Affluenza" may well be worth reading, so I shall reserve judgment for the time being.

Yes, it is worth reading and reflecting on – and I say that as someone who disagreed with quite big chunks of it. What interested me about the study I…

Steve Barnes

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:16:39 +1200

there’s a stool in the middle of the kitchen floor
Really?
There is a difference between a solid argument and just going through the motions.
You have to sit somewhere within the vicinity of the fence, whether on a stool or not.

We are told that doing nothing is a…

Creon Upton

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:16:08 +1200

when pain – mental or physical- is omnipresent, I rather think it does have an effect on our brain

Absolutely, Islander. And I really can't imagine anything worse. It's how torture works, after all.

And for a materialist, the mind/body dichotomy is seriously problematic anyway. But personally, at the fringes…

James Butler

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:08:39 +1200

A quick Google™ suggests that "Affluenza" may well be worth reading, so I shall reserve judgment for the time being. But I'm immediately suspicious of a study which goes looking for something which is defined at least partially in reference to a particular set of cultural norms, and finds that…

Creon Upton

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 23:00:31 +1200

I’m curious where this suspicion about ‘truth’ comes from?

Hey Rob, I think it's the connection with the "grand truth" thing that you mention. I mean, saying something is "true" is fine – a nice, gentle adjective. But "the truth", what with that definite article and all, comes out seeming…

Steve Barnes

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 22:29:36 +1200

while I don’t doubt that one’s society and environment have a major impact on the effects and expression of such disorders, I see no reason to believe that they are the causes. History is full of accounts of people prone to “melancholia”,

Ah yes, Nature V Nurture, 50/50 they say,…

Susannah Shepherd

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 21:49:04 +1200

“Citation needed” indeed – I’ve heard variations of this argument before, and I don’t really buy it.

Argh, I have seen similar research cited but can't remember where – perhaps in Oliver James' book "Affluenza"? From memory, the study/ies looked at depression rates in a particular ethnic group spread across…

James Butler

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 20:48:51 +1200

A lot of depression in modern society is, as we know [citation needed] is the feeling of inadequacy many people feel as a response to the ideal consumer, go getting “wealth” creator. We live in a time where financial value is directly tied to socialtal value, you have to “Improve”…

Sacha

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 20:37:54 +1200

He's not going back far enough.

Hilary Stace

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 20:34:58 +1200

Michael Moore blames the current mess on Ronald Reagan.

Sacha

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 20:06:34 +1200

the first half looked pretty amazing

those world wars, Depression (financial) and so on were just delightful

Steve Barnes

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 20:01:08 +1200

A lot of depression in modern society is, as we know [citation needed] is the feeling of inadequacy many people feel as a response to the ideal consumer, go getting "wealth" creator. We live in a time where financial value is directly tied to socialtal value, you have to "Improve"…

Islander

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 19:32:50 +1200

That's an interesting viewpoint Creon – but when does osteoarthritic pain become
anything other than pain? I dont know anyone of mature years who believes pain is *totally avoidable* (I realise that is not what you said) but when pain – mental or physical- is omnipresent, I rather think it…

Sacha

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 19:14:23 +1200

People with depression might make better leaders in times of crisis. reports the Wall St Journal.

How, then, might the leadership of these extraordinary men have been enhanced by mental illness?

An obvious place to start is with depression, which has been shown to encourage traits of both realism and…

Creon Upton

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 19:10:33 +1200

Yes, well I was talking out my arse somewhat, I admit.

But the depression-related factors you cite are precisely the kinds of things I meant by "beliefs" (I wasn't talking about religion at all). I might be wrong, but it seems to me that there's a big big cultural factor…

Rob Stowell

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 18:44:54 +1200

I am also close to people who rely on SSRIs. I don’t doubt they do something :) But I’m wary of a/ the massive scale on which they are dispensed b/ some questions about how they work and c/ the long-term effects (it was spooky to be told people should…

Steve Barnes

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 18:21:23 +1200

Ah, Science and BIG Pharma...
"So, how's the trials on the Hair Growth thing going"
"Well, not that good actually, some of our subjects have experienced extreme erections"
"Hmmm, how did they feel about that"
"They seemed quite happy actually"
"Great, we have a cure for depression"
KACHCHINGGGGG

Islander

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 18:10:01 +1200

The answer to depression does not lie in science: it lies in the realisation that everything that everybody believes is wrong. We don’t have to stop believing, but we do need to learn to understand that our beliefs are ridiculous. Then we’ll stop getting depressed at our inability to live…

Steve Barnes

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 17:53:12 +1200

I think it was Churchill who said... "There but by the grace of God goes... God"

Creon Upton

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 17:48:59 +1200

No, I didn't think we were arguing :)

I think I prefer "knowledge" to "truth" because it seems a little more contextualised, less grand, less sweeping. "Knowledge" knows its own limits, it seems to me.

Part of what I was trying to say above is that ultimately scientific knowledge is…

Rob Stowell

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 16:54:47 +1200

No real argument, Creon- just another reminder that science is a human activity. Though when you say a somewhat disappointing lament for "truth". I'd just ask: if not 'truth'- what?
The inability to replicate initial data seems especially poignant in the so-called 'medicalisation of melancholy'- the explosion in use of…

Creon Upton

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 16:07:28 +1200

Simple human curiosity- and the desire to effect a practical end

I suspect, Rob, that the presence of the latter all too often comes at the cost of the former – particularly, of course, where that latter is career advancement and other matters completely unrelated to the question at hand.…

Steve Barnes

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 15:34:59 +1200

far more money has been spent on the agw side of the argument than by those who doubt the science behind agw. I have repeatedly seen the figure of $50 billion as the amount of money that has been spent on agw research over time.

Several things here. Denial is…

Sacha

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 10:45:11 +1200

it's not called the deep south for nothing

Bart Janssen

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 10:08:44 +1200

Wow and I thought I'd taken this thread off the rails by talking about GM. How naive I was.

Joe Wylie

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 10:05:28 +1200

. . . the great Gorical before which agwers prostrate themselves in adoration . . .

Great impression of a 13-yr-old in a bad Rush Limbaugh halloween costume, James. When you parrot your talking points, it's not surprising that you'd assume everyone else has outsourced their thinking. Rather less stressful…

3410

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 10:02:07 +1200

Also interesting was that the data showed that global warming is not infact global in nature. Some parts of the world had cooled. Maybe that is why 'global warming" was changed to "climate change" instead, because global warming wasn't infact global after all.

Fascinating. You'll be interested to know that,…

Sacha

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 09:37:53 +1200

I have repeatedly seen

on denialist websites? I'm sure you have.

Sacha

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 09:36:26 +1200

that never transpire

there's your problem. tell it to the polar bears

James Bremner

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 08:25:57 +1200

And this just in. Apparently the artic ice pack is not going to reach a tipping point afterall!! Thank goodness for that, I will be able to sleep tonight afterall!!

Honestly, with all these predictions of one type of doom or another that have been made over the last 20…

James Bremner

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 08:20:13 +1200

Sasha, far, far more money has been spent on the agw side of the argument than by those who doubt the science behind agw. I have repeatedly seen the figure of $50 billion as the amount of money that has been spent on agw research over time. It seems like…

James Bremner

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 08:03:48 +1200

And Al Gore, the great preacher and teacher of global warming, sorry climate disruption, his scientific qualifications are? His publication record is? Yet he is the great Gorical before which agwers prostrate themselves in adoration, despite the fact that his movie was found to be full of errors and distortions…

James Bremner

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 07:12:34 +1200

No, that would indicate a trend without sufficient strength to claim warming, within 3 std deviations, you could have a cooling trend. And this is hadcrut data remember, not data produced by Exxon Mobil or any other dark satanic devil worshipping multi national company (you know, the type of companies…

James Bremner

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 06:52:32 +1200

Joe, I will make no comment on the state of your armpits, other than to say that thought is not making my just completed lunch sit well!!

Joe Wylie

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 00:41:10 +1200

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hBpF_Zj4OA

Joe Wylie

Sat, 06 Aug 2011 00:20:04 +1200

Thanks Rob. Hadn't intended to read it through, but once I'd started. Great stuff.
Interesting how several examples of initial "false positives" were from the start of the 90s, with measured declines as the decade progressed.

1990 was the heyday of overegged hypotheses such as recovered memory, and Rupert Sheldrake's…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 23:53:17 +1200

it seemed to confirm one of my reservations – not with science as a tool/method- but with how results are promulgated and reinforced.
Me too. I work at the University of Canterbury, and see various academic research projects at all stages. Leaving aside malice, fraud and incompetence- they all exist,…

Islander

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 23:24:56 +1200

It is also a wonderful look at the very powerful effect of human expectations and how what we want to see/know will skew what is-

or possibly not! I read this with high excitement since it seemed to confirm one of my reservations – not with science as a tool/method-…

Rob Stowell

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 23:12:49 +1200

As a reflexive defender of science and its methods, (which, however you look at it, seem to be the best we've got) I found this article- 'The Truth Wears Off'- quite challenging.
It's not dealing with fundamentals of physics, but it's still a mildly dis-quieting look at how science works-…

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 16:54:50 +1200

As Earl said in "Earl"

If I agree with you then we'd both be wrong.

Sacha

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 15:40:41 +1200

ridiculously improbable

That's the sort of language I like. :)

Alongside likelihood, the potential scale of impact seems relevant with things like climate change, nuclear energy and genetic modification.

Bart Janssen

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 14:26:10 +1200

we can just have ill informed opinion

Heh even well informed opinion can be wrong, that's why scientists will almost always come off looking weasily, because we're aware that we can be wrong. Folks like James don't have that awareness so they are comfortable with absolutes, hence their statement can…

Sacha

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 14:22:33 +1200

Having the support of those with deep pockets will always trump other things if it's funding we seek.

Steve Barnes

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 14:02:07 +1200

peer-reviewed scientific consensus.

Pah, who needs it when we can just have ill informed opinion?

Martin Lindberg

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 13:46:04 +1200

And it doesn't trump peer-reviewed scientific consensus.

In terms of funding research, I'm afraid that it might.

Sacha

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 13:34:20 +1200

69% think it is at least somewhat likely that scientists have falsified research about AGW to support their own theroies and beliefs

All that figure shows is that the investment in public sentiment by the industries who profit from continued pollution is paying off. If a majority of US citizens…

Ian Dalziel

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 10:40:19 +1200

Meanwhile a mere 8 minutes* away...
A series of large Coronal Mass Ejections from the Sun over the past 3 days or so may have electromagnetic effects here from today onwards
– check these projections

*at the speed of light

Martin Lindberg

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 10:06:24 +1200

Of course you know that his scientific credentials are as a ... television weather presenter, don't you?

I think this ties back to the OP. Yes, this guy may be a TV weather man and his scientific credentials are pretty poor. All scientists can scoff at him, but I'm guessing…

Carol Stewart

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 09:47:17 +1200

More disingenuity from you, James. Don't expect anyone here to be impressed by references to Anthony Watts. Of course you know that his scientific credentials are as a ... television weather presenter, don't you?
So outraged was Watts by the whole concept of human-induced climate change that he set up…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 09:30:05 +1200

on what do we base major decisions

Don't be silly we should just trust the nice man in the suit, he'll look after our best interests.

3410

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 09:23:30 +1200

Who would base a major decision on data where the standard deviation on a trend is 3 times the calculated trend?

So, you're advocating... what? Abdication of responsibility for decision-making? If not our best predictions, on what do we base major decisions?

Joe Wylie

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 08:54:15 +1200

. . . not the most popular polling organization amongst the PAS crew
Go on James, say "hairy armpit brigade." You know you want to.

James Bremner

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 04:06:00 +1200

Another interesting article on agw, this time about analysis of the HadCRUT3 data set.

Seems that global warming is not so global after all. And a rather large standard deviation on the overall result. Who would base a major decision on data where the standard deviation on a trend is…

James Bremner

Fri, 05 Aug 2011 03:20:07 +1200

A bit late to the discussion, but I just saw this. I know Rasmussen is not the most popular polling organization amongst the PAS crew, but as they have a good track record of prediciting elections, their polls are worth contemplating.
No surprise in this one, 69% think it is…

Carol Stewart

Thu, 04 Aug 2011 12:12:45 +1200

katie, I don't think the story about ghostwritten articles being passed off as the work of influential researchers is a problem with peer review as such. It's an issue of fraud.

Sacha

Thu, 04 Aug 2011 09:23:17 +1200

I believe Russell has arranged for the Media7 shows not to be geo-blocked via TVNZ OnDemand. There's also a Youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/TVNZMedia7

Katie R

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 23:51:39 +1200

Oh, and forgot to ask earlier. Is there any way I can see this week's show over here in the UK? To be fair I haven't tried but I am sure there is some geographical exclusion zone on TVNZ programmes.

Katie R

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 23:49:11 +1200

Here's an interesting article from The Guardian this morning...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/aug/02/scientists-ghostwritten-articles-fraud

One of the issues with academic research is the reliance on peer review to give credence to the research and anyone who has had any experience with peer review will realise there are some pitfalls with this approach.

Anyway, another…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:27:44 +1200

The reason why not has to do with a narrative by which disaster can only be dealt with in a top-down manner, with ordinary citizens expected to give due obesiance to authority.

As in Pikes River Mine, where I still question why the police were even involved at a stage…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:24:05 +1200

You won’t get any argument from me Sofie.

I am liking this response very much. Continue as you wish Bart.;)

Bart Janssen

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:16:44 +1200

dealt with in a top-down manner

My experience in the place I work is that management are far far far more risk averse than the people actually doing the work. I think some of that is because the people doing the work have a good understanding of what is going…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:13:19 +1200

Bart, you are relieved of your responsive duties.

but but but I have so many more opinions to share :)

You won't get any argument from me Sofie. I personally think it is entirely reasonable to let folks in, carefully.

Rich of Observationz

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 17:03:52 +1200

It's obviously about control, not safety.

Perhaps someone could clarify the exact qualifications for a worker to be allowed into the red zone, but I would suspect that unskilled labourers hired from temp agencies are allowed in after a safety briefing and the correct gear (hard hat, boots, etc). It…

Sofie Bribiesca

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:54:12 +1200

Harm from loss of life is easy to emotionally grasp, harm from loss of income is harder,

Still, if the demo crew are pulling down buildings left right and centre, plus police are protecting this barricaded zone, why cant they assist people in if their premises are scheduled for destruction?.Let…

st ephen

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:55:40 +1200

I wasn’t going to bother responding to that until after the quarter-finals.

Didn't he say he supports England? In which case you might have to wait a game or two longer...

Bart Janssen

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:39:46 +1200

So why, in this instance, has the perceived risk outweighed the cost?

My guess is the political cost of having someone lose their life in the central area would be enormous. When balanced against the loss of livelyhood for say a couple of hundred people there was no politician willing…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:00:20 +1200

Then you have the flipside with climate change where there is extensive data showing significant climate trends yet the policy makers waste their time debating whose science is right because it is too costly, or annoying or threatening to big business to actually make a decision either way. In this…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 13:39:47 +1200

Ignorance is bliss...

In which case, ignorance is strength. And freedom is slavery. And war is peace.

Which also explains why PAS has its fair share of grumpy buggers.
;-)

Sacha

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 00:06:49 +1200

doubleplusgood

Kumara Republic

Wed, 03 Aug 2011 00:02:14 +1200

Ignorance is bliss

If that were true Kiwiblog would be a place of joy.

In which case, ignorance is strength. And freedom is slavery. And war is peace.

Sacha

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 22:27:20 +1200

I wasn't going to bother responding to that until after the quarter-finals.

Hilary Stace

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 22:23:52 +1200

Andin, please don't stop making deep philosophical points on my behalf. Sometimes it's hard to get the nuances of arguments when we only have digital words to go by, and not the whole person.

Carol Stewart

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 22:02:30 +1200

On a side note. I have to say I did find it very interesting that NZ's most trusted this year were all scientists:

I thought the most interesting thing about that poll was how utterly pointless and spurious it was. here are the top 10:
:
1. Sir Ray Avery,…

Sacha

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 21:58:44 +1200

the relative safety of the MMR vaccine which when asked alongside the risk of getting the measles probably changes the answer for some people

Much like the harms vs benefits for current prostate testing.

Sacha

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 21:56:55 +1200

I’m guessing the voting forms were not pinned on the Warehouse noticeboards

I reckon you might be underestimating the public. And most people have a powerful and primal connection with the food they feed themselves and their children.

Katie R

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 21:30:10 +1200

A balanced consideration of benefits, risks and costs would be good

I’m glad you bring up the question of risk (pulls out soapbox)

Basically risk is at the heart of the science is complicated debate. Policy makers want to know exactly how much risk certain new technologies bring (preferably none)…

Ross Mason

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:40:34 +1200

His legend states that he was beheaded at Pisa during the reign of Nero, and that his body was placed in a rotten boat with a rooster and a dog. The body landed at the present-day location of the town.

So.....he was a to martyr.

Steve Barnes

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:48:43 +1200

Ignorance is bliss

If that were true Kiwiblog would be a place of joy.

Sacha

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 12:47:04 +1200

I do think that success at what cost may be a more useful way of approaching things.

A balanced consideration of benefits, risks and costs would be good.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 11:18:16 +1200

...although for the technicians, this is often far less of an issue than simple personal pride in their work.
aah! the work ethics of code...

BenWilson

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 11:03:04 +1200

Just my two cents anyway

Can we have the full dollar? :-) Sounds like you could contribute a lot to this debate.

However, I think an area we scientists can work on is our eagerness to claim success when we are promoting new technologies, especially agricultural ones that aim to…

Katie R

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 10:50:00 +1200

As someone who is writing their thesis on new rice varieties for Africa, this has been an absolutely fascinating discussion.

Bart, I have really enjoyed your posts but the quality of debate in general has been exciting (and I really don't mean to come across as a patronising git, even…

recordari

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 10:07:15 +1200

PS I just realised Recordari is also Rare Doric
you don't live in Hellensville do you? – ;- )

As I sit in my Klismos chair, I look out through columns not so rare on fairest Shaman Grind [sic], with a vista of Vastu Shastra.

In Helengrad of old, but…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 09:25:06 +1200

The fruits of science...
I wonder if Fairfax are ruing moving so rapidly to hubbing their production and putting all their eggs in the one basket...
No paper today in many centres!
I wonder if they have a Siemens server?
(and who they might've pissed off recently...)

Swan Vesta...
Are…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 09:04:23 +1200

A great mystery to me is why cherry tomatoes are so expensive to buy when they are so easy and prolific to grow

I don't know. But my guess is yield. They cost the same to grow as any other tomato plant, my guess is the fruit have to be…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 08:57:25 +1200

:- ) the puns of last resorts...
The tasty To Mayto ….. Entropy?
San Trope …….sans taste….
Worthy of St Richie, it's all about the breakdown
– and coincidentally, Wikipedia notes that...
The town’s name derives from that of an early, semi-legendary martyr named Saint Torpes. His legend…

recordari

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 07:59:45 +1200

Laconophiliac
The saccharine saccharide seeks surly Saracens suffering salacious salicylates from fried green tomatoes.

andin

Tue, 02 Aug 2011 06:17:43 +1200

And Sacha

And outside where?
+1. So terribly sorry if it makes you uncomfortable, andin, but where on earth do you suggest claims should be heard?

Couldnt there just be a football game and the winner takes all. Yep I'm joking.
My apologies to you and Hillary, I was trying…

Ross Mason

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:42:19 +1200

The tasty To Mayto..... Entropy?

San Trope.......sans taste....

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:32:32 +1200

Heads up...
Sofie, (and everyone else) something to check out with the new telescope...
November 8 near earth asteroid 2005 YU55 whizzes by (hopefully) at a mere .8 LD – here's the approach simulation
about the same time the Earth should be passing through both the Leonid meteor shower and…

Islander

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 23:32:31 +1200

O just by the by -thank you so much, Bart, for your sharing of scientific knowledge: it adds and expands the knowledge that Joe has, (just an instance.) Much appreciated.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:25:57 +1200

Jekyll and Formaldehyde...
It’s a Sparta meme.
you old Laconophiliac you...

Carol Stewart

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 20:00:41 +1200

A great mystery to me is why cherry tomatoes are so expensive to buy when they are so easy and prolific to grow – even in the horticultural wasteland that is the top of the Brooklyn hill, they do OK most years.
Bart?
Anyone?

recordari

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 19:14:58 +1200

It's a Sparta meme.

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 18:57:08 +1200

Eclectic tastes...
How can people drink nutrasweet
when it tastes like electrical tape?
Wired for sweetness and light?

Sacha

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:41:02 +1200

or something about investor sentiment

JackElder

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 16:26:30 +1200

In the case of apples it’s bears!

I clicked onto the last page of this discussion, saw only this quote, and assumed that the conversation had once again converged to Steve Jobs. Presumably revealing a hitherto unknown side to his character.

Sacha

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:29:10 +1200

In the case of apples it's bears!

Awesome

Joe Wylie

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:17:31 +1200

In the case of apples it's bears!
Yes! And as this superb saga recounts, more than a little historical help from horses. Not to mention the truth about Johnny Appleseed (it was all about cider, bugger keeping the doctor away).
Right through until the early 2000s, supermarket tomatoes were almost…

Russell Brown

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:00:03 +1200

Supermarket tomatoes have improved out of sight thanks to improved breeding. There were some abominations around in the 70s, and those pale orange imposters from Queensland seem to have finally vanished.

Right through until the early 2000s, supermarket tomatoes were almost all horrible. They were basically intended not to ripen,…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:59:28 +1200

If you pick it once the faintest blush of colour shows there’s no detectable difference between leaving the fruit to fully ripen on the vine. It seems to be true, and I’m kind of curious as to why.

We don't know ... yet. Well we sort of know.

A lot…

Sacha

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:53:56 +1200

Ignorance is bliss

JLM

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:52:30 +1200

There are a few blah old-school tomato varieties that persist in seed catalogs and remain mysteriously popular.

One I really like that's not too "blah" is Bloody Butcher from Kings, because it seems to get ripe fruit weeks before the others, both under glass and outside – a big plus…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:42:47 +1200

And then they will remember that one shouldn’t ask questions one doesn’t want to know the answer to.

I can't be knowin' that!

Emma Hart

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:36:55 +1200

And someone will ask how you know what that tastes like..

And then they will remember that one shouldn't ask questions one doesn't want to know the answer to.

Joe Wylie

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:35:12 +1200

Trust me the article is much more a failure of journalism than a representation of Steve Tanksley's ignorance. He really is very smart and has a deep knowledge of both the science and the industry.
Thanks for that Bart. Having Googled Tanksley, all I can say is he's certainly been…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:30:29 +1200

Does leaving the tomato on a bit of disembodied vine help in the process of ripening?

Maybe. But the biggest thing is that the stalk has lots and lots of the compounds that smell of tomato. So for marketing purposes since they smell like tomatoes people will think they taste…

Steve Barnes

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:20:39 +1200

The premium price commanded by vine-ripened “trusses” can’t all be due to Nigella having told people they’re better. And unless you carefully remove the fruit before you pay, they’ve found a way to sell you the stalks.

Does leaving the tomato on a bit of disembodied vine help in the…

Joe Wylie

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:56:32 +1200

I'm reasonably confident that you could ask any backyard cultivator which has more taste: homegrown or supermarket, and they'd point to the homegrown.
There are a few blah old-school tomato varieties that persist in seed catalogs and remain mysteriously popular. The prison-grown seedlings that the Christchurch City Council distribute to…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:56:16 +1200

In this respect the consumer contributes by being bloody stupid

Not entirely fair. The real problem is marketing. What happens is the producers ask a marketing firm to do a survey to find out which tomato the public prefer. Marketing company has lunch ... at Cibo. Then comes up with…

James Butler

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:52:00 +1200

“How can people drink nutrasweet when it tastes like electrical tape?”

And someone will ask how you know what that tastes like..

Because you needed to repair some wiring, and had to bite the tape into strips because you forgot the scissors. Obviously.

Sacha

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:42:26 +1200

at some point you can expect to listen to my "How can people drink nutrasweet when it tastes like electrical tape?" rant

And someone will ask how you know what that tastes like..

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:40:26 +1200

drink nutrasweet

Ack phtooey!

giovanni tiso

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:40:23 +1200

It’s kg yield that is maximised to maximise profit. It isn’t the taste.

Also: appearance. Which I think is the main thing that conspires oxheart tomatoes. In this respect the consumer contributes by being bloody stupid.

(And really is there anything more perfect in appearance and horrible in taste than…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:38:39 +1200

But where does it go?
Entropy?

Well actually yes. Some of the key flavour compounds that people associate with tomato-y-ness are not very stable and degrade fairly quickly – becoming less complex chemicals i.e. entropy. They are only present in detectable concentrations if they are continually being produced – by…

Rich Lock

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:34:43 +1200

Is this because they absolutely taste pleasant, or because we live in a society that elevates conspicuous consumption?

While there may be an element of that in it, I'm reasonably confident that you could ask any backyard cultivator which has more taste: homegrown or supermarket, and they'd point to the…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 12:51:27 +1200

You say Te Mata, I say to martyr...**
But to be fair it was quite interesting to find out exactly why the flavour disappears and never comes back.
But where does it go?
Entropy?

Emma Hart

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 11:32:48 +1200

I guess for me as a scientist what is really exciting is the work that we (and others) are starting to make progress on concerning figuring out just which chemicals people can detect and how that varies from person to person and the correlating that with genotype. Even in the…

recordari

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 11:24:23 +1200

e.g. Heineken is perceived as a drinkable product – if middle class hipster, then it's revolting and you want hop-filled designer beers with twee names.

There's no accounting for taste. Heineken has given me a headache right from being an impoverished student through to this state of entitlement I find…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:49:22 +1200

One can argue that “taste” (as in food) is to a substantial degree a political/cultural construct though.

We have a sensory science team here where I work that do a lot of work teasing apart cultural preferences. In no small part because Japan is very important to the kiwifruit industry.…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:41:17 +1200

What really bothered me about that piece is the casual suggestion that without GM assistance, flavour and yield are mutually exclusive. If he’s really working with stock that only set two useable fruit per plant then he’d appear to be on a hiding to nowhere.

Trust me the article is…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:38:25 +1200

Yeah, we so needed science to tell us that :-)

Yeah obvious answer is obvious. Although I wish our local fruit world understood that :(.

But to be fair it was quite interesting to find out exactly why the flavour disappears and never comes back.

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:36:35 +1200

Tanksley – and the article’s author

Knowing Steve I'd say the emphasis you are reading into the article is from the journalist not Steve himself.

Steve Tanksley's work is aimed at understanding what really contributes to the domestic tomato we know as compared to the wild progenitors. Once we understand…

Joe Wylie

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:10:49 +1200

The relationship between yield and flavour is nothing new. The fewer fruit you have the more flavour you get in those fruit.
Not my experience. Tigerella, a 1930s hybrid, produces as well as many commercial varieties, with a superior flavour demonstrated by blind testing. Occasionally it's resurrected for commercial purposes,…

giovanni tiso

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:07:40 +1200

We tend to find food products that are expensive to produce (rarity, low yields, tricky cultivation) desirable. Is this because they absolutely taste pleasant, or because we live in a society that elevates conspicuous consumption?

It's because they absolutely taste pleasant.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:06:39 +1200

One can argue that "taste" (as in food) is to a substantial degree a political/cultural construct though. (E.g: if one's environment is aspirant working class male, then e.g. Heineken is perceived as a drinkable product – if middle class hipster, then it's revolting and you want hop-filled designer beers with…

giovanni tiso

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:00:15 +1200

So never never never put your tomatoes in the fridge, the flavour will disappear and never come back even when they are warmed.

Yeah, we so needed science to tell us that :-)

Joe Wylie

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:59:57 +1200

What Steve Tanskley's work has shown is that because tomato has been inbred for some 500 years a lot of the diversity we see in heirloom tomatoes is not "real". Instead of being a visual display of genetic diversity it is instead a few mutations in what is otherwise a…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:43:16 +1200

The real doozy is the claim that “any plant that sets only two fruits, as heirlooms sometimes do, is bound to produce juicier, sweeter and more flavorful fruit than varieties that set 100, as commercial types do.”

Seriously, growing tomato varieties purely for flavour isn’t something akin to bonsai cultivation.…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:31:38 +1200

ill-informed puff piece

Huh? I read it somewhat differently Joe. What Steve Tanskley's work has shown is that because tomato has been inbred for some 500 years a lot of the diversity we see in heirloom tomatoes is not "real". Instead of being a visual display of genetic diversity it…

Bart Janssen

Mon, 01 Aug 2011 09:18:13 +1200

but it has been known that growers of that plant claim to clone.

Cloning plants is usually really easy. Any time you take a cutting in your garden you are cloning the plant. So it has exactly the same genetic material as the parent plant you took the cutting from.…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 23:28:15 +1200

You're funny ;)

nzlemming

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 21:31:27 +1200

Just long enough to tie the vacuum to the glass tube :-D

Ross Mason

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 21:17:33 +1200

He NZlemming. If the water didn't satisfy you, how long was the piece of string?? :-)

Ian Dalziel

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 16:19:08 +1200

kernel sanders...
And you're telling me, a Mexi can? Y'know, staple an' all, :)
ear, ear... that's 'maizing!

Rob Stowell

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 13:45:43 +1200

Some figures on small producers vs agribiz in this article.

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 12:15:56 +1200

The bulk of what is available in NZ is done that way, I’m told.
Well yes so I am told too. ;)

I don’t think considerations like that come up with corn.
And you're telling me, a Mexi can? Y'know, staple an' all, :)

recordari

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:14:37 +1200

It was only when it got its scary name that it became a bad thing.

Hmm, maybe. Although there are some in The Greens who I would expect to see through the semantics and make policy based on the merits of the science. So far it appears their position hasn't…

recordari

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:23:20 +1200

As you know, it's Knowledge Bro.

The entropic trope. The existence of which is predicated on the amount of 'bro-ness' and the the extent to which knowledge of any theory is a priori.

In which case it's actually a priori knowledge, bro.

But you knew that.

Joe Wylie

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:13:58 +1200

. . . virtually no one re-uses seed now anyway.
It happens all the time with tomatoes. While many of the so-called "heritage" varieties and public domain hybrids could do with a bit of bioscience improvement – e.g. resistance to occasional virus hits and thinner skins – this kind of…

BenWilson

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:09:39 +1200

The bulk of what is available in NZ is done that way, I'm told. But there are reasons that go beyond yield efficiency. If you grow from seed you have to plant a lot of plants to get a much smaller number that you will keep. If you get caught,…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:36:45 +1200

If we could bypass it by controlling apomixis (fancy word for causing mommy plant to produce exact copies of herself rather than bothering with daddy’s genes aka cloning)
Ah, what about marijuana? Not that I am an expert, but it has been known that growers of that plant claim to…

Bart Janssen

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 08:05:07 +1200

virtually no one re-uses seed now anyway

Except farmers in poorer countries.

Just a note that this is much less common than you think even in poorer countries. Seed even hybrid seed is cheap and produces much higher yields. The cost versus benefit is so good that even in the…

Yamis

Sun, 31 Jul 2011 00:15:52 +1200

I try and re-use seeds from the Botanic gardens all the time. :)

Hilary Stace

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 21:11:33 +1200

There's also one in Lambton Quay Wellington, that's often featured on the TV weather, is frequented by tourists and is a lovely place to work in.

Steve Barnes

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 20:37:13 +1200

No one is asking the obvious question, “How long is it?” ;-)

Twice as long as from the centre to the end?

Knowledge Bro

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 20:37:08 +1200

First let me clear up the string thing, it is a mere analogy, the ripple is more like a standing wave which, if you could see it, it would look like a string. As for having mass, it actually creates mass by virtue of its Energy, E=M, forget the C²…

BenWilson

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 18:32:52 +1200

Or "how small a hole can it get through"

Lilith __

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 18:25:48 +1200

Does the string have mass?

No one is asking the obvious question, "How long is it?" ;-)

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:57:03 +1200

Bosun Higgs, take it to the bridge...
Think of matter as a ripple of energy in space, a string if you will.
Does the string have mass?
Or is it like light and potentially exists at all points in its path?
So is it more like a whip ripple (linear)…

Ian Dalziel

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:49:12 +1200

Owen Glenn Building
OMG another OGB...

Knowledge Bro

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:27:27 +1200

You didn’t explain what string theory is. :-)

This sounds like a job for a Bold Keg Owner
String theory is actually very simple, I first figured this out in the early seventies before it was known by such a name.
It has to do with the relationship of time,…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:19:30 +1200

ta much.

Russell Brown

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:10:28 +1200

So could you answer ma question about where we go to in the Owen Glen building to morrow?:)

The front door. Main entrance. Right on the road.

Russell Brown

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:09:41 +1200

If anything, the large scale corporate approach to GM has been to hold the future of global food supplies to ransom for greater economic return. What possible humanitarian justification could there be for terminator gene technology in third world seed supplies?

The "terminator gene" — producing plants which, like many…

Russell Brown

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:04:04 +1200

The toxin they refer to is Bt toxin which is specifically an insect toxin and has no effect on animals. It is a protein itself that binds to a receptor in the insect gut. Those receptors are only found in insects and each Bt toxin is highly specific for specific…

Sofie Bribiesca

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:02:31 +1200

So could you answer ma question about where we go to in the Owen Glen building to morrow?:)

Sacha

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:02:24 +1200

virtually no one re-uses seed now anyway

Except farmers in poorer countries.

Russell Brown

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:01:53 +1200

To quote myself in the same post: “we are trying to figure out how the big bang would have worked if string theory is true, and whether the string theory version of the big bang leads to a universe with distinctive properties which might be observable when we look into…

Sacha

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 15:01:49 +1200

Sacha, about half your answers to Bart boil down to but you can't prove it doesn't!

I was seeking a level of reassurance equivalent to the level of enthusiasm and certainty about benefits. I fully understand that the reality is more nuanced, but the precautionary principle does tangle with science's…

Russell Brown

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:57:38 +1200

ALL of our modern crops are completely useless competitors in the wild. They all require careful watering and fertilisers and pest control.

And some of them — e.g. the cereal hybrids — won't last past a single season. I recall when I researched this (and I use the word "research"…

Russell Brown

Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:52:11 +1200

no evidence that any harm results

I think you’re missing the point of the precautionary principle. Once there’s evidence of harm in the wild it’s way too late.

“As far as we know” is just not good enough if you want to claim perfect absence of risk of harm.

Just…

Ross Mason

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 20:06:29 +1200

NZlemming........
You are in advertising aren't you.

nzlemming

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 18:27:47 +1200

Well, I got as far as the glass tube, but when I attached the vacuum, it sucked all the water out and shorted the machine.

Sofie Bribiesca

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 17:36:06 +1200

Oh Russell, which part of the Owen Glen building. Do you know how big it is and, and... how BIG it is?

Ross Mason

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 17:34:19 +1200

Its Friday.
Todays neat bit of science for you all. Ice melts at 0 deg C. A simple statement. If you have a bowl of ice and water, stick a thermometer in it and let it melt, it will sit at 0 deg C until it is all melted. If…

James Butler

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 17:28:33 +1200

Prior to 1995 we were told that temp increase would accelerate from the rate of increase observed from the 1970s to the early 1990s, which of course is what started the whole shenanigans. And instead we got a lousy 1.2C a century!!

Consider that the entire range temperatures on Earth…

James Bremner

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 17:27:44 +1200

My fairly desperate position? That's a good one!! If the skeptics are in a desperate position then why are you devoting a show to trying to understand how all us dummies just don't get tricky stuff? It is you and the AGW crew that are the ones in the desperate…

Islander

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 17:13:55 +1200

And instead we got a lousy 1.2C a century!!

Which is an enormous amount for a lot of species-

James Bremner

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 17:11:42 +1200

Famous Phil changed his story a bit. Increase is now statistically significant. A whopping .19C from 1995 to 2010.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13719510

Oh my goodness!! 1.2C a century!!
Prior to 1995 we were told that temp increase would accelerate from the rate of increase observed from the 1970s to the early 1990s,…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 14:06:21 +1200

Lilith, thank you for asking the questions. Strong opinions aren't a bad thing. And not knowing something is not a bad thing either – there is so very much I don't know.

Science has always been a tool for good and bad in society and societies have always struggled to…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 14:00:20 +1200

I believe that Monsanto in particular has been given too much credit here in the past as a genuine innovator.

This is a classic case of the difference between Monsanto the company and Monsanto the group of scientists who worked there in the 80s. The story is interesting (to me…

Lilith __

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:28:01 +1200

Bart, I also appreciate your patience, especially with those of us who may have strong views but who are ignorant of the technical details.

Science has brought us so many amazing benefits, but I'm not sure we've been very good at dealing with the power it gives us.

I think…

Lilith __

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:16:56 +1200

Steve: I don’t at all disagree about solar panels and decentralised generation, but I think further research into sustainable power generation is also important. Science and technology present us with complex choices and choosing the best path depends on context.

and Yamis: once again, the issues are complex, and I’m…

Yamis

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:46:53 +1200

We have the sort of situation where the Amazon is being cut down to produce beef for American hamburgers...it's not like America can't keep its own cattle, but it's cheaper to do it in the Amazon.

I don't disagree that certain 'tastes' have resulted in large scale environmental destruction but…

Steve Barnes

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:44:41 +1200

There are of course clever folk trying to make power via nuclear fusion in the UK at the JET facility. If they should succeed, it would provide a much safer method of power generation,

Not radioactive as such but they sure could sling some nasty stuff about, a neutron with…

Russell Brown

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:40:31 +1200

Sorry, more ranting from me :).

I appreciate your good faith and patience in explaining things you know and care about.

recordari

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:02:13 +1200

Of the scientists I'd say 80% are mostly doing what they do with the explicit intent of doing "good" for the planet. They also love the science and the discovery. But they believe that what they are doing will add to the greater good.

You inspire some hope with this.…

Joe Wylie

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 12:00:53 +1200

Thanks Bart... I do so like passion! And informative too.
Likewise. Appreciate the info, most generous.

Bart:
I think there is some misunderstanding about just who uses GM. The dogma is, it's the big multinationals.
I believe that Monsanto in particular has been given too much credit here in the…

Steve Barnes

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:58:08 +1200

I meant the front end in the dimension of time.

But what happens when that falls off?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWPwlMv8lNI

Bart Janssen

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:45:38 +1200

I’m pretty sure there are many scientists employed purely to extract more profit out of food crops who couldn’t give a GM monkey’s uncle for the greater good.

Yeah there are some I'm sure as well.

But I'm lucky enough to have started my career at exactly the time GM…

Roger

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:32:09 +1200

Oh oh oh (picture me squirming in my seat with excitement). See this here – GM has such potential it is amazing

Thanks Bart... I do so like passion! And informative too.

Martin Lindberg

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:32:00 +1200

But from 1996 to 2009 GM crops reduced pesticide use by 393 million kg of active ingredient.

You and your sciencey facts.

recordari

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:29:38 +1200

GM is good and GM is green and the scientists working with it want to make the world better not worse.

All of them? Can I borrow your glasses, mine seem to be fogging over with cynicism. Overall I agree with much of what you say, it's just while I…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:27:29 +1200

the large scale corporate approach to GM has been to hold the future of global food supplies to ransom for greater economic return

Ok I really have to do some of my real work but I think there is some misunderstanding about just who uses GM. The dogma is, it's…

Bart Janssen

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:19:03 +1200

Perhaps not to do with GM in itself, but the GM varieties we currently have require loads of fertilizer and pesticides

So I agree we use too much fertaliser and pesticide in producing our food and that damages the environment.
But from 1996 to 2009 GM crops reduced pesticide use…

Lilith __

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:15:39 +1200

There are of course clever folk trying to make power via nuclear fusion in the UK at the JET facility. If they should succeed, it would provide a much safer method of power generation, where the waste is no more radioactive than the ore.

[they also get points for the…

Sacha

Fri, 29 Jul 2011 11:09:22 +1200

there's a reason you can't get insurance for them