Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Schools: can we get a plan up in here?

Beth Sullivan

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:42:35 +1300

School overcrowding has been an issue in the past – 'Urban Village' by Jenny Carlyon and Diana Morrow have descriptions of Richmond Rd school:

'By 1914 the school consisted of several high roofed barn like rooms with platform galleries where the nearly 800 children could be packed .... to control…

Beth Sullivan

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 17:32:07 +1300

Regards the Western Bay schools, the MOE has committed 10 million to upgrading Freemans Bay Primary, with the plan to replace all the single story buildings with two stories to cater for future growth.

It is also worth noting that the schools closest to the CBD attract significant numbers of…

Nicholas Jones

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:25:24 +1300

I'd have to disagree that it's straightforward. Gentrification and pockets of higher income areas do exist within many lower decile schools' catchment areas (Wattle Downs near James Cook). And the students who go further afield are not likely to be in their new school's majority.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 15:10:58 +1300

While decile rating is linked to students, it isn’t straightforward that students avoiding their local lower-decile school will cause the school they end up at to decline in decile.

If they come from a meshblock (grouping of around 50 households) that has an higher aggregate socio-economic status than surrounding blocks,…

NBH

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 14:30:41 +1300

So a school in a neighbourhood that would be decile 5 which has a majority of pupils from households in decile 1 is going to be below decile 5; more likely around decile 2 or 3.

Or conversely there's the Wellington College situation, where zones are gamed so that a…

Nicholas Jones

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 14:15:38 +1300

While decile rating is linked to students, it isn't straightforward that students avoiding their local lower-decile school will cause the school they end up at to decline in decile.

As noted by principals in the article, they will tend to be from higher income families within an area, and in…

Keir Leslie

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:51:31 +1300

To be ultra-pedantic, it's not based on the socio-economic status of the school's pupils. It's based on the socio-economic status of the school's pupils' meshblocks.

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:48:11 +1300

So the decile ratings for schools (10% per decile) is based on schools rather than student numbers. As in top 10% ranked schools (using their socio-economic criteria) are in decile 10.

Kinda sorta nearly. It's based on the household socio-economic status of the school's pupils, not of the area in…

Matthew Poole

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:45:22 +1300

Actually, Lucy, as per the Ministry information I posted, that is exactly how it works. Schools provide the addresses of their pupils, the meshblock data of those addresses is then used to calculate household incomes for the student body of that school. It's absolutely not related to the school's geographic…

Glenn Pearce

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:43:12 +1300

I don't think that's correct, it is based on the meshblocks of the children attending the school, that's why they are supplied with the addresses of the children attending as input to the calculation

http://www.minedu.govt.nz/NZEducation/EducationPolicies/Schools/SchoolOperations/Resourcing/ResourcingHandbook/Chapter1/DecileRatings.aspx

Julie Fairey

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 13:29:19 +1300

No sorry, I don't seem to have retained that, I blame the Saxby's Ginger, Lime and Lemon.

Louise Gardiner

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 12:45:21 +1300

That's not how decile funding works. A school decile is worked out on the basis of the mesh block data from census returns. It reflects the socio-economic status of the catchment area, not the actual school population. So if locals send their kids to a school away from where they…

linger

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 10:28:10 +1300

Does Parata have a "D'oh!"cile rating?

Russell Brown

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:36:39 +1300

Good on you for forcing the issue — and getting it discussed in a wider Western Bays context. As I noted above, it sounds like Point Chev isn't the only part of the city where growth projections are an issue.

Richard Green

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 09:21:18 +1300

We met with the Ministry Tuesday and have forced a meeting tomorrow to advance the issue of the admin build. I sit on two local boards and the MoE has had their head in the sand for a while. It has taken the Point Chev issue to force a wider…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:32:49 +1300

Watch for National to get rid of the Decile Rating
(yay)
and introduce a "Docile Rating'!
(oh...)

Hekia Parata – putting the chic in apparatchik since 2008

nzlemming

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 23:55:58 +1300

so decile rankings are based on data from 2006? Even though we have data from 2013?

It always takes a while for census data to be finally released. You can't put everything on hold while you wait for the latest data. Planning takes time.

What Russel is referring to (IMHO)…

Glenn Pearce

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 20:02:49 +1300

Any idea what dataset the graph labelled 'the real story' comes from?

The preceeding graph to that more or less concurs with the theory that 2015 is the primary age peak

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:33:16 +1300

Yes, in Auckland these are called Facilities Partnerships (I was on the committee for the isthmus last term) and can apply to all sorts of things with schools, sports club, even churches. However sports fields, unless they are specifically built to a high standard for a particular code, seems to…

Max Call

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:30:41 +1300

I believe Otumoetai College has a pool that they build in partnership with Tauranga City Council. From memory, I think it is a school pool during school hours and a community pool outside school hours.
Sounds sensible considering the cost of running and maintaining a pool. Better than no pool…

Max Call

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:25:26 +1300

so decile rankings are based on data from 2006? Even though we have data from 2013? I tried reading the transcript you linked to but I'm not sure 'what Hekia Parata actually said'

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:06:33 +1300

The recent census data would mean there could be a real shake up of a schools decile rating now that the data is not ancient?
/me thinking aloud

You'd think. And then you might want to read the transcript of Hekia Parata's HoS interview , which raises significant questions as…

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:05:56 +1300

I might be able to dig up a not too old (like 2012) MOE presentation on the coming demographic changes they were looking at then. Please hold caller.

ETA: Here you go then:
http://www.springboardtrust.org.nz/images/articles/bruceadinsbtchallenges.pdf

I have seen slightly different versions of this presentation twice – once to elected members at…

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:04:30 +1300

My perception is that Auckland schools may end up more at one end or the other of deciles, ie less mid-decile schools, more 1,2,3 and 8,9, 10. Which, because lots of people think decile indicates the quality of teaching, will lead to more unnecessary angst and gloating.

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:03:03 +1300

I'm hearing tell of similar experiences to Point Chev — where ministry projections seem to conflict with observable reality. I'll try and report them in the next few days.

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:02:00 +1300

Well yes. And I did ask if that was being proposed for any schools where predominant zone was commercial, but got overtaken by events with councillors going for education zone across them all.

Max Call

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:01:28 +1300

Could this be part of the musings of the minister about decile rankings being a 'blunt tool' ???

Max Call

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 19:00:22 +1300

So the decile ratings for schools (10% per decile) is based on schools rather than student numbers. As in top 10% ranked schools (using their socio-economic criteria) are in decile 10.
Then according to the article there has been a drift of students up the decile rankings (less students in…

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:55:58 +1300

Local Boards have been pushing hard (or at least some have) for social infrastructure planning and some bits and pieces are starting to get to a point of nearly being useable, but it seems to take FOREVER. And then the next step is actually securing forward planning, resourcing, political commitment…

Sacha

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:53:50 +1300

Surely underlying commercial zoning would be worse?

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:47:25 +1300

Thanks Lindsey, appreciate that. Do you have any insight on the MOE's plan to get all their sites given an underlying residential zone in the Unitary Plan process, but the councillors decided to go with an education specific zone instead. I did some OIAs around it and MOE and Council…

Sacha

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:40:16 +1300

to smooth the way for mega-schools and the corporations that would love to run them

quite

Sacha

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:37:26 +1300

how can you write permits for infill housing for 30 years without asking yourself where all the kids are going to go to school

A colleague when I worked at the old Waitakere City Council was doing social infrastructure planning across the city. This seemed to be regarded as unusual.…

Graham Dunster

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:23:16 +1300

AGGS is single sex too I believe.

nzlemming

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 18:16:49 +1300

So why doesn’t the ministry build single sex schools any more, when they’re clearly still popular?

Because mainstream (whatever the hell that really means...)

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:54:52 +1300

many of the single sex schools now accept both genders eg Mt Albert Grammar

Geeze, shows how long it is since I lived in Auckland..

So why doesn't the ministry build single sex schools any more, when they're clearly still popular?

Lindsey Rea

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:52:36 +1300

MOE is a requiring authority. They can do pretty much what they like for education purposes on land designated by them for that use. They put in an Outline Plan of Works to show what they want to do, and Council then has 20 working days to either accept it…

Glenn Pearce

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:51:30 +1300

The ministry no longer builds single sex schools and many of the single sex schools now accept both genders eg Mt Albert Grammar

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:34:54 +1300

I thought (but clearly I'm wrong) that when schools introduced zones the Ministry of Education had to make sure that every address excluded from was in zone for, or close to if the school has no zone, at least one similar (i.e. single-sex or co-ed) school. Otherwise, how is there…

BenWilson

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:06:56 +1300

I’m wondering if there are any plans for a new unisex high school to cater for the CBD?

It does seem to be needed. There's quite a lot of religious schools in the central area and there's ACG. Also if you go slightly out of zone there's a lot more…

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 17:04:57 +1300

I’d be really loath for our community (any community) to be obliged to sacrifice that dedicated bubble of time-and-space
That's what worries me about this super school planned for Aranui – actually, 'earmarked for Aranui' would be better, there's not a lot of obvious planning going on, just waiting for…

BenWilson

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:39:12 +1300

The original post referred to “mainstream”, I assume that excludes St Marys and St Pauls.

I guess. They're not state, or private, but "Integrated", meaning the state pays but they retain their "character", which I presume means they're still religiously oriented.

Glenn Pearce

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:27:18 +1300

The original post referred to "mainstream", I assume that excludes St Marys and St Pauls.

BenWilson

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:15:22 +1300

Isn't St Mary's still single sex?

Glenn Pearce

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:11:07 +1300

There are plenty of unisex (I assume you mean single sex) schools in the CBD etc area, not so many mixed.

Where are these please? Auckland Girls Grammar is the only one I'm aware of.

BenWilson

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 16:02:49 +1300

WSC is not unisex, it’s mixed. There are plenty of unisex schools in the CBD etc area, not so many mixed.

Yet another victim of the ridiculous word “unisex”, which pretty much means “mixed”, despite what it looks like. Stoopid English language.

ETA: "Unisex" does not mean "single sex". It…

Graham Dunster

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:49:51 +1300

WSC is not unisex, it's mixed. There are plenty of unisex schools in the CBD etc area, not so many mixed.

Lucy Telfar Barnard

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:13:41 +1300

The only school with as many pupils per square metre of site is Mt Cook in Wellington, which has only 100 pupils.

Erm, not quite sure where you got the 100 from. Mt Cook has about 210 students, maybe more by the end of the year. The roll has been…

John Holley

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 15:01:17 +1300

The MoE does seem to be supporting 2 story class block now, as was done recently at Reremoana School. The trouble is that the MoE is always starting the building after the spare capacity at a school is gone. This normally means libraries/resource rooms/halls/meeting rooms being taken up for temporary…

Jolisa

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:55:42 +1300

Also, remember the Ministry's first proposal was to either a) continue building at Pt Chev Primary as long as necessary to contain the increasing student roll – pretty grim, given they've endured a decade of being a building site and have one of the smallest open spaces of any urban…

Allan Moyle

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:52:34 +1300

Mt Eden Primary School which has had a long constrained site has had to go up to keep pace with its roll growth. (Roll ~ 630) It has what looks like a 70's era 3 level building facing the the Valley Rd frontage. And since 2000 has added two further…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:51:44 +1300

Some information from the Ministry about decile calculations:

A school provides its student addresses and these are used to determine which areas its students come from.

The student addresses are assigned to the smallest Census areas, called meshblocks. A meshblock contains around 50 households. However, only Census information for households…

Dave Patrick

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:51:26 +1300

I wouldn't hold your breath for any particularly rapid response from the Ministry of Education. I was on the BOT of Southbrook School in Rangiora for about 12 years, and for probably 8 of those years the Ministry has been talking about creating a new primary school in Rangiora, to…

Jolisa

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:18:19 +1300

An interesting comparison is between Pt Chev and Te Atatu Peninsula: they're roughly the same size and population, but Te Atatu has three primary schools (and one intermediate, and one high school).

I find the current staged trade-off between the primary and the kindergarten really sad and frustrating. Yes, the…

Martin Lindberg

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:17:43 +1300

Image I’ve created clearly illustrates...

If you look closely you should be able to make out the p-lab on Buxton St before it exploded.

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:10:35 +1300

Hopefully they can redevelop the current supermarket site and its dire arcade neighbour into 3-4 storey mixed retail/office/residential.

Yeah, you'd hope so.

Sacha

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:08:23 +1300

Hopefully they can redevelop the current supermarket site and its dire arcade neighbour into 3-4 storey mixed retail/office/residential.

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:02:12 +1300

When you look at the development of the Point Chev School site, where did they put 900 kids in the 40’s? Image I’ve created clearly illustrates the significant loss of outdoor space over time (Sources 1940 & 2001 Aerial Photos from Akl Council GIS and 2013 from Google Earth)

That's brilliant!

Euan Mason

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:02:07 +1300

Dear David Seymour (ACT spokesperson),

“Partnership” (aka Charter) schools aren’t even required to have all teachers registered, plus they receive gobs of taxpayer money to try to ensure their success. This is hardly a paragon of quality and efficiency that private sector competition is supposed to produce.

The elephant in…

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 14:01:03 +1300

Pt Chev Primary – Pasadena Int. – Western Springs. My three schools. Wish I could afford to live in these zones so my kids could go there.

Yes. The property spiral in the 13 years we've been here has been crazy, but a couple of friends have found ways to…

Allan Moyle

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:59:49 +1300

When you look at the development of the Point Chev School site, where did they put 900 kids in the 40's? Image I've created clearly illustrates the significant loss of outdoor space over time (Sources 1940 & 2001 Aerial Photos from Akl Council GIS and 2013 from Google Earth)

Jon Briggs

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:56:59 +1300

Pt Chev Primary – Pasadena Int. – Western Springs. My three schools. Wish I could afford to live in these zones so my kids could go there.

Glenn Pearce

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:55:44 +1300

So by the end of the year, the school will be about 100 students over its capacity.

Yes, but it's not as straightforward as that, how many year 6's leaving in this year's cohort and how many year 1's forecast for next year?

And it's tricky because the Year 0/1…

Jon Briggs

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:55:22 +1300

RE Countdown: a good thing 'cos the existing one feels like shopping in Poland in the 70's.

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:47:15 +1300

If anyone want’s a bit of light reading, here’s the 2010 report commissioned that concluded everything is fine and dandy in the Western Bays

Thanks!

The Pt Chev bit:

As shown in Table 6.5.2 and illustrated in Figure 6.5.2, the roll of Pt. Chevalier Primary School grew slowly between 2006…

Matthew Poole

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:46:47 +1300

noting an apparent roll drift from lower to higher decile schools

A drift which is literally impossible to sustain, by definition, because that's what a decile is: one-tenth of whatever it is that's being measured. If all the kids from Otara have started going to school in Pakuranga instead of…

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:37:09 +1300

Oh, and to give the Herald (long over-)due credit, this is what happens when you're focused on something other than the Mayor's penis. Do hope this is a precedent for more actual journalism.

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:32:19 +1300

Without wanting to defend the ministry’s poor planning too much, it is a complex problem.

Sure – but it always has been since people tend not to plan their lives around government demographic projections. Pardon the cliché, but if a business was run this badly the shareholders would trigger a…

Glenn Pearce

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:26:28 +1300

If anyone want's a bit of light reading, here's the 2010 report commissioned that concluded everything is fine and dandy in the Western Bays

Tui Billboard

Finlay Macdonald

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:24:20 +1300

Of course the context is Auckland's overall and unrelenting growth in general. If you are (roughly) increasing by the size of a mid-sized provincial town each year, there will be inevitable pressures, localised demographic trends notwithstanding. A lot of the rest of NZ doesn't like it, but basically Auckland needs…

Glenn Pearce

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:06:47 +1300

They tried that at Alexander Park? All the locals quashed it because it meant they'd then be out of the Grammar Zone

BG

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:06:19 +1300

A significant section of our local school in Wellington was found to be not earthquake safe (3 classrooms and the Hall). We were assured it should be fixed by next term, then the school decided they should build up due to significant roll growth, and of course that required ministry…

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:03:16 +1300

In 1927 its roll was 680 and in 1945 it was 900. Even after Pasadena Intermediate opened in 1941 and took the Form 1 & 2 students.

So what is the problem again ? Your roll is over 600 ??. So what.

So it's all okay because we can provision a…

Ianmac

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 13:02:24 +1300

Be interesting to see what happens when League Tables (based on shonky data) cause a flight from one school to another beyond community housing growth. Even more imbalances I imagine.

Glenn Pearce

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:52:24 +1300

Without wanting to defend the ministry's poor planning too much, it is a complex problem.

Roll growth does tend to go in cycles as demographics change. I believe the Primary age children in Western Bays area is predicted to peak in 2015. And it wasn't that long ago those primary…

Steve Curtis

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:49:27 +1300

The Pt Chev Primary website gives a bit of historical context

In 1927 its roll was 680 and in 1945 it was 900. Even after Pasadena Intermediate opened in 1941 and took the Form 1 & 2 students.

So what is the problem again ? Your roll is over 600 ??.…

Tim Croft

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:47:42 +1300

And yet the Minister and the Ministry seems to have no problem painting with such a broad brush in Christchurch.

barnaclebarnes

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:40:41 +1300

The other interesting thing about Western Springs is that it is the only mainstream school that boys can go to if they live in the CBD/Ponsonby/Freemans bay/St Marys Bay. It isn't just Pt Chev that is feeding Western Springs. With greater density and more people living in the city it…

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:23:30 +1300

Was there possibly an issue there about not thinking they would be able to get a consent because of other infrastructure (water, roading in particular)?

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:22:38 +1300

People may find the case of Wesley Primary, in my own area, instructive (in a sad way). Their long awaited rebuild ended up being prefabs, and also got caught up in the Mainzeal collapse :(

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:20:47 +1300

The government (who ultimately own schools) could just snag a few dozen hectares of rugby fields from the high decile central Auckland schools, sell the land for development and use the money to build/extend schools in growing neighbourhoods.

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:20:13 +1300

To my mind that means only two options there; build up or charter schools.

And, yet, ironically, the ministry refused to fund a two-storey block at Point Chevalier.

I should note the the school is under additional pressure at the moment because it lost its admin block to a fire…

Allan Moyle

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:18:06 +1300

Nice!, both for the confirmation and the dataset.

Julie Fairey

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:12:08 +1300

My understanding is that MOE have repeatedly said they will not buy land on the isthmus. To my mind that means only two options there; build up or charter schools.

Many school classroom buildings could do with upgrades, to make them suit modern teaching techniques and the varying uses of…

kris_b

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:11:06 +1300

The school I work at is sitting down with the Ministry tomorrow to discuss exactly this problem. They've done a Roll Growth Analyisis Report, which ultimately comes to a different conclusion than the data within suggests, but even worse – it only projects out to 2016. It's taken us 2…

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:09:10 +1300

The Herald's data dude Kamal Hothi has helpfully given me a link to the underlying dataset for his infographic.

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 12:01:56 +1300

Would be good if the Herald advised the specfic origin of those roll numbers used, I suspect they are they based on March Roll Returns to MoE, not end of year Roll. My wife’s school shows a small decrease 2003 >2012, but the 2012 end of year roll number was…

Allan Moyle

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:59:39 +1300

Would be good if the Herald advised the specfic origin of those roll numbers used, I suspect they are they based on March Roll Returns to MoE, not end of year Roll. My wife's school shows a small decrease 2003 >2012, but the 2012 end of year roll number was…

Russell Brown

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:59:02 +1300

NB: I made a couple of corrections and an update shortly after the post was published. It appears that, at the least, the problem is now being acknowledged.

Ben Ross

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:49:46 +1300

We have similar problems down here in Papakura with Addison taking off at a great rate of knots. There is land put aside for new schools and to upgrade schools but the Ministry of Education wont budge for most likely a decade. Well too late as an extra 5,000 people…

Paul Brislen

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:42:47 +1300

Good post, Russell, and can I just urge everyone with kids to get involved in their local schools. I'm on two boards and let me tell you, every board needs people who can support their schools (and by extension their communities) and all of them are always after people who…

Public Address

Tue, 25 Mar 2014 11:42:47 +1300

Discussion from blog post.