Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Rough times in the trade

Sacha

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:49:18 +1200

testing for weaknesses

recordari

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:20:31 +1200

I am confident the system is referring to the wrong post, not the humans involved.

It's only a matter of time before it becomes self aware, then we should all move away from the keyboard very quietly. Shhh, it might hear us.

Sacha

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:17:07 +1200

The problem is mostly human error though I think Sacha.

I am confident the system is referring to the wrong post, not the humans involved.

recordari

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:11:45 +1200

[Looks for the 'Reply all' button.]

Thanks, x 3.

ETA: The problem is mostly human error though I think Sacha. Although if you quote text, it should only allow a reply to the original author. At the moment you can push any reply button willy nilly and it works.

Islander

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 11:56:06 +1200

I'm away from the home shelves at the moment, but will get it out – & reread it! –
when I return to Big O...

Sacha

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 11:26:21 +1200

Another reply button fail

Russell even had one yesterday. Someone notify the cactuselves (problem with Reply linking to correct post-1)

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 10:31:49 +1200

Astounding stuff...
There is a science fiction short story that plays with this idea: there is a lonely ‘normal’ in a world of instant portals and extremely widespread experiential&knowledge sources

Any chance you can remember the name?
It sounds like I need to read it.

Lovecraft's The Shadow Out of Time…

recordari

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 10:18:34 +1200

No, Islander read it, not me!

Another reply button fail. Meant to be asking Islander.

Open Source nerds, the only people who cared enough to bother.

OSS nerds will save the world. Hadn't you heard?

BenWilson

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:58:22 +1200

No, Islander read it, not me! Yes, Banks is pretty amazing. I found The Algebraist to be pretty bizarre and interesting as a view of what the culture of an immortal species would be like. Kind of funny to think that a lot of immortals would just be Bertie Wooster…

recordari

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 09:17:34 +1200

There is a science fiction short story that plays with this idea: there is a lonely ‘normal’ in a world of instant portals and extremely widespread experiential&knowledge sources

Any chance you can remember the name? It sounds like I need to read it.

Iain M. Banks seems to have a knack…

BenWilson

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 08:53:36 +1200

The description of the "normal" resonates scarily with me. That's definitely how I feel much of the time, especially on here!

Yes, word. The story Islander refers to describes something that happens to people quite a lot, although not on such an extreme scale.

Jackie Clark

Thu, 23 Jun 2011 04:49:47 +1200

The description of the "normal" resonates scarily with me. That's definitely how I feel much of the time, especially on here!

Islander

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 23:30:22 +1200

Until our kind of human- changes*-

There is a science fiction short story that plays with this idea: there is a lonely ‘normal’ in a world of instant portals and extremely widespread experiential&knowledge sources…which the ‘normal’ cannot tap.
So, people pop out of where-ever and hold conversations in several languages -with…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:49:47 +1200

The idea that we are unable to see the future and genius can strike at any time. Music could be revolutionized next year by something totally unforeseen, as could some branch of science, and we’ll reflect that actually the period we lived through just had a dearth.

That’s Lanier point…

Sacha

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:51:48 +1200

suggests an end to modernity

that would be a modernist way to interpret it, yes

BenWilson

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:47:07 +1200

Well to claim to be post modern, is a pretty big call, and suggests an end to modernity. I don't see that happening myself, which is half of what I found uncompelling about it.

Sacha

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:14:30 +1200

the modern version

heh

BenWilson

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:57:41 +1200

upending modernism seems significant enough

For the 40th time in 3000 years? I'm being unfair, of course, the modern version draws on many new thoughts from social sciences and trends in art etc. I guess that's hinting at my point here – to me postmodernism seems like electronica (seemed to…

nzlemming

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:53:28 +1200

One thing is for sure, humans have been predicting the end of days since the beginning of days, and they've been wrong every time so far.

Unless we were right the first time and we're the Left Behind...

Sacha

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:25:44 +1200

there seemed to be no new ideas in that tradition

upending modernism seems significant enough

BenWilson

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 14:57:29 +1200

To be fair, he's well beyond clever.

That's the only thing that really gives me pause in pronouncing the "end of X" where X is some human endeavor. The idea that we are unable to see the future and genius can strike at any time. Music could be revolutionized next…

Sacha

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:16:16 +1200

Gone are the days that a clever patent clerk can work it out in his spare time, and everyone can go "wow, so the universe is actually curved?"

To be fair, he's well beyond clever. Was a gap of over 5 decades before anyone was able to progress some of…

BenWilson

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 12:12:50 +1200

Yes, that's the 10% of pure truth in what he was saying. That 90% rubbish is the price of having the other 10%. Just as 90% disproof of hypotheses is a vital part of science for the 10% (or more likely 1%) that don't get disproved. That's why I don't…

Craig Ranapia

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:53:56 +1200

Ben:

I think Sturgeon was snarkily defending science fiction against genre snobbery. I read a LOT, from highbrow lit to low trash, and when I graduated from uni I made a vow that unless there was a cheque or academic credit on the horizon, I’d never force myself to read…

BenWilson

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 09:41:10 +1200

Just picturing you tapping your foot. Do you bob your head too?

Of course, level of body involvement totally dictated by how much I'm into it. From barely noticeable movement to wild gyration.

Russell Brown

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 08:58:47 +1200

And, sadly. it's funny because it's true. Crap.

Exception: rocksteady reggae.

Granted, it's a relatively small body of work. But it's nearly all gorgeous.

recordari

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 08:52:57 +1200

And, sadly. it’s funny because it’s true. Crap.

There’s also no accounting for taste. I mean, this seems to take no account of taste.

Just take the Wham Whim for example.

Russell Brown

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 08:35:59 +1200

Just picturing you tapping your foot. Do you bob your head too?

BenWilson

Wed, 22 Jun 2011 01:12:44 +1200

And, sadly. it's funny because it's true. Crap.

Actually, it's also 90% crap, by definition. If it wasn't, the law would be false. But the residual 10% is beautifully insightful. If we define good as the top 10% then of course 90% isn't good. However, when saying something is 90%…

Craig Ranapia

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:57:55 +1200

It's quite odd. On one hand, dubstep really has opened up new vistas. On the other, it's about 90% shit.

It's called Sturgeon's Law, as defined by the OED:

A humorous aphorism which maintains that most of any body of published material, knowledge, etc., or (more generally) of everything is…

recordari

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:40:39 +1200

Adele does a Tiny Desk Concert.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfzpYcwiUrA&feature=fvwrel

recordari

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:50:30 +1200

I stuck a hardcopy on the fridge at home.

This is definitely fridge worthy.

Doesn't he want the company to grow? He shakes his head. "We get offered 200,000 unsolicited demos a year and yet only sign about one artist a year. We're basically saying no to everything, lots of…

Russell Brown

Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:07:13 +1200

You got to watch this 1996 BBC doco about Gil Scott Heron, in four parts on YouTube — it really nails how much he brought when he turned up in the late 60s.. Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm5o_qDlZDM

Matthew Littlewood

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:53:16 +1200

Ironically I understand from a music journalist buddy in the UK that GSH was less than happy with I’m New Here, which was mostly magically cobbled together from over two years of sessions by Richard Russell. He played almost nothing off it live AFAIK.

That’s interesting. Of the two records,…

Rich Lock

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:20:52 +1200

I found this piece on XL Recordings so positively uplifiting in it's 'we make the music we want to make, and if anyone else likes it, that's a bonus' vibe that I stuck a hardcopy on the fridge at home.

recordari

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:10:32 +1200

I'm New Here

Jamie XX Remix still streaming via the Guardian. Nice soundtrack for a Monday morning.

Simon Grigg

Mon, 20 Jun 2011 01:58:23 +1200

Those last two Gil Scott Heron records were particularly striking.

Ironically I understand from a music journalist buddy in the UK that GSH was less than happy with I'm New Here, which was mostly magically cobbled together from over two years of sessions by Richard Russell. He played almost nothing…

Matthew Littlewood

Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:22:47 +1200

Been meaning to. I suppose Jarod Lanier would regard Adele as a revival act, but she’s also very novel. The Guardian named “Team Adele” at number one in its Music Power List recently.

XL Recordings is a really interesting label. It started out as a label for 12” dance records…

recordari

Sun, 19 Jun 2011 18:09:34 +1200

Back on topic... turd-polishing goes online, and there's mention of the Devlin incident.

And more here.
"We also use article spinning – a technique which works on the principle that Google likes unique content; taking an article and rotating alternative keywords to create dozens of unique articles
[with hyperlinks] ...…

BenWilson

Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:24:47 +1200

Lousy biology, limiting the boundaries of popular music again

Ya, beat-matching software has made me realize what a difficult task it is to define the beat of music, and yet we do it unconsciously with ease. It's like hearing words in speech, something computers still struggle with. I guess we…

Sacha

Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:24:19 +1200

Adding to the ebook-reading experience. Not sure about the printed cube idea, but progress bars and creation process meta-data appeal. Same with margin notes by other readers. All those possibilities for critics/fans to embed value into the same reading vehicle. Would need to add micropayments platform like Flattr to share…

giovanni tiso

Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:06:02 +1200

The CEO of the Bad News Burial Service is called Coffin. You can't make this shit up.

Kumara Republic

Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:46:34 +1200

Back on topic... turd-polishing goes online, and there's mention of the Devlin incident.

recordari

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:11:07 +1200

Adele is bustling and authentic and can’t just be read at a glance.

Yes, authentic seems to be a good word for what she has done to date, even with the power house behind her now.

Must get the album on the iPod so the girls can stop singing Jessie…

Matthew Littlewood

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 20:09:45 +1200

It's quite odd. On one hand, dubstep really has opened up new vistas. On the other, it's about 90% shit. As a friend pointed out to me yesterday, most of the people leering it up to dubstep in the clubs are the kind of people who'd have been partying to…

Matthew Littlewood

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 20:08:11 +1200

It was interesting that Adam Curtis chose Burial to score All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace. If Burial and their peers are in fact the music of theirtimes, then we;d have to conclude these are pretty creepy times.

The last Burial album reminded me a lot of Tricky's…

linger

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:43:50 +1200

But how can we possibly take the piss from an empty vessel?

Danielle

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:10:53 +1200

R Kelly is... an empty vessel

If someone doesn't make a urine-based joke here I will be very disappointed.

Russell Brown

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 18:50:31 +1200

Since it seems to get mentioned fairly regularly here and elsewhere, albeit in relation to one remix or other, isn’t Adele’s rise to global uber-stardom worth a mention?

Since it seems to get mentioned fairly regular here and elsewhere, albeit in relation to one remix or other, isn’t Adele’s rise…

recordari

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:42:51 +1200

I wouldn't underestimate the extent in which the "adapt or die" crowd is huting this debate

Bloody cabin dwellers.

Since it seems to get mentioned fairly regularly here and elsewhere, albeit in relation to one remix or other, isn't Adele's rise to global uber-stardom worth a mention?

giovanni tiso

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:26:55 +1200

We're currently being railroaded in the opposite direction by American entertainment industry lobbying.

And by Kevin Kelly. I wouldn't underestimate the extent in which the "adapt or die" crowd is huting this debate – which I guess is my whole point.

Sacha

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:42:31 +1200

Rather than thinking about a sensible way forward which completely re-writes copyright

Trouble is, that requires most of the world to agree. We're currently being railroaded in the opposite direction by American entertainment industry lobbying.

Danielle

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:48:17 +1200

he wasn't the first by a long shot

And *that* is where the mind-numbing hotness part comes in. :)

Simon Grigg

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:40:05 +1200

but what you're not mentioning is that Elvis fused black rhythm and blues with white country, and that's why he had such crossover appeal.

He did, but he wasn't the first by a long shot.

For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuY6NROhCQw&feature=related

Simon Grigg

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:39:12 +1200

Svengali = Simon Fuller?

I guess you could argue that he changed the face of popular music for better or worse. I'm not sure he added to the long term vocabulary though.

Jeremy Andrew

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:14:01 +1200

Svengali = Simon Fuller?

Danielle

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:10:03 +1200

Elvis, was a hero to most

I'm such a dork that whenever I hear that lyric I have a sort of mini-debate in my head: "yes, the broader point about co-opting African-American music is fair, but what you're not mentioning is that Elvis fused black rhythm and blues with white…

Simon Grigg

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:03:56 +1200

There's not necessarily anything wrong with working with something from the 1950s — it's but a second ago in the context of the span of human popular culture.

Rock'n'roll, too, was a part of something much bigger. A melding together of the so called race records and the hillbilly music…

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:31:58 +1200

Seriously, though, when’s the last time you heard a piece of music that made you think this is really new, as opposed to this is really good?

New to me is quite different from new to the world. Not being particularly down with the kids, the last "hot thing" I…

Rich Lock

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:31:56 +1200

I'd also argue that hip-hop [was] Elvis in [its] own radical wee way.

Elvis, was a hero to most, but what did he mean to me? :)

I could hear something tomorrow that is new in every sense, totally underivative in every way. But it seems likely that I won't…

andin

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:11:47 +1200

new genres of the first nine decades of the 20th century stopped at a time that coincided with the explosion of digital media.
wouldnt say stopped. And didnt some big companies try and control that explosion. They seem to have directed it in their face tho', not that I'm an…

BenWilson

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:34:19 +1200

t's quite odd. On one hand, dubstep really has opened up new vistas. On the other, it's about 90% shit.

I think that about most art generally, to be honest. Of course the really good ones are in a minority, that's almost by definition. I don't like most music that's…

giovanni tiso

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:17:34 +1200

There's not necessarily anything wrong with working with something from the 1950s — it's but a second ago in the context of the span of human popular culture.

I think his argument (and the book was published before dubstep, I should note. Also, he rates hip hop as the latest…

Sacha

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:05:58 +1200

It's like saying Columbus was unusually explorative.

Fave reframing: Native Amercians discovered Columbus lost at sea.

Russell Brown

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:03:47 +1200

But that feeling of unusually innovative times earlier is unfair. It’s like saying Columbus was unusually explorative. Yes he was, but so are many people today – however America has been discovered now, so what people do discover now tends to seem dwarfed by that.

And also: who says we…

Russell Brown

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 11:57:11 +1200

Once again – dubstep. it’s transformed and penetrated the way popular music is made, both inside and outside it’s own narrow genre.

Yeah, I’m not really in disagreement, and certainly when I hear pure dubsteb against even quite closely related electronica, it does have a very different sound.

It's quite…

Sacha

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 11:56:48 +1200

the contextualized setting of what made Elvis and the Beatles super stars is an unlikely thing to re-occur

I believe industry arrangements at the time helped. Simon no doubt knows more.

BenWilson

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 11:39:52 +1200

the contextualized setting of what made Elvis and the Beatles super stars is an unlikely thing to re-occur

Again I should be more specific – I mean "in our lifetimes". If humanity takes to the stars, I can imagine plenty of scenarios where the tyranny of many light years distance…

BenWilson

Fri, 17 Jun 2011 11:27:15 +1200

Once again – dubstep. it's transformed and penetrated the way popular music is made, both inside and outside it's own narrow genre.

Yeah, I'm not really in disagreement, and certainly when I hear pure dubsteb against even quite closely related electronica, it does have a very different sound.

Will we…

Simon Grigg

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:35:29 +1200

If I agree with him in any way it's that I don't see major trends seizing such a large share of public listening so much

Once again – dubstep. it's transformed and penetrated the way popular music is made, both inside and outside it's own narrow genre. We just don't…

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:04:03 +1200

Part of the piece, surely

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:16:23 +1200

Bullying? I wish I could be bullied like Wells.

Have your benefit suspended, then reinstated, then be harassed daily by WINZ? Yeah, must have been a lark.

Keir Leslie

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:06:20 +1200

Bullying? I wish I could be bullied like Wells.

(Look at Venice tho'. The one really good show we sent was shamelessly attacked here, and ever since we've sent desperately safe things.)

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:02:12 +1200

Art, on the other hand, gets treated as some kind of glorified tourism advertisement or branding exercise.

Couldn't agree more.

along with its wallet, mate

On that point too I must concur with David – society funds art because it recognises its value, which is critical as well as aesthetic.…

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:06:31 +1200

at least publicly funded NGOs get treated like they are

Researchers and innovators seem similarly unimpressed as artists.

DCBCauchi

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:58:15 +1200

Try getting public funding for anything else without some strings attached. I agree they should be strings overseen by people with enough expertise, and only related to the (minimal) public interest components of the work.

Yes, of course all public funding comes with quite proper conditions attached.

However, at least…

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:55:04 +1200

society can fuck right off.

along with its wallet, mate

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:43:19 +1200

As far as I'm concerned, society can fuck right off.

Very good then.

DCBCauchi

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:36:56 +1200

I just think society has a stake in how the commerce of art works.

As far as I'm concerned, society can fuck right off.

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:36:24 +1200

I just think society has a stake in how the commerce of art works.

Well put.

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:35:30 +1200

Yes, the State funds some artistic activities. And quite right. However, that does not give anyone a stake in the work that results other than the artist(s) involved.

Try getting public funding for anything else without some strings attached. I agree they should be strings overseen by people with enough…

DexterX

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:35:03 +1200

Here is art for you, without notice, prior consultation, policy development or debate – from the man who gave you the budget comes SOP 247:

House of Representatives – Supplementary Order Paper – Tuesday, 14 June 2011 Telecommunications (TSO, Broadband, and Other Matters) Amendment Bill Proposed amendments

Hon Steven Joyce,…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:16:45 +1200

You don't abrogate your artistic freedom and moral rights by accepting public funding.

Once again: I am with you on that one. I just think society has a stake in how the commerce of art works.

DCBCauchi

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:16:31 +1200

Looks like Gio took you out of context. You said you could look after yourselves, but you weren’t meaning financially, you surely meant that you don’t need a bureaucrat telling you how to do your art.

Oh right. Yes, I did mean that. Or, rather, not just a bureaucrat but…

DCBCauchi

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:15:02 +1200

However, we legislate things like copyright and we fund writers and artists because we have a stake in how these things play out. Which is why I think the debate needs to go beyond “leave the creative people alone, they’ll be all right”.

Who is the 'we' here?

Yes, the…

BenWilson

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:03:08 +1200

Looks like Gio took you out of context. You said you could look after yourselves, but you weren't meaning financially, you surely meant that you don't need a bureaucrat telling you how to do your art.

That's the same exact complaint my sister often gives, who is always applying for…

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:00:18 +1200

information is not all

Sure isn't. Knowing where it fits in and what you can do with it is far more valuable. And that's probably where more of the work will be moving to.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:59:04 +1200

Are you saying that, because people apply for public funding, other people should then tell them what to do and how to do it?

No, I'm actually on record saying the opposite. However, we legislate things like copyright and we fund writers and artists because we have a stake in…

DCBCauchi

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:50:55 +1200

Ah, that must be why all those competitions for funding with Creative NZ never get any applicants, or why nobody took up the artists on the dole scheme, or why the NZSO sends back all those cheques. I had been wondering.

I'm sorry, but I completely fail to see your…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:14:46 +1200

We can look after ourselves.

BenWilson

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:09:08 +1200

You play them a band they like, and next time you see them they know more about them than you do. It's wearying.

Awww, dude, get a groove on! It's exciting that kids are so god-damned wired, something I could only dream of myself as a kid. I know it…

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:04:26 +1200

It's all content :)

DCBCauchi

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:28:02 +1200

I would suggest a defining principle of modern media is impatience. I want it all, and I want it now.

We live in an age of instant completism. My partner's kid, in their 20s, watch tv and flicks completely differently than I do. They are so used to having the…

recordari

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:51:37 +1200

Regarding 'new' journalism, isn't it now more than previously about getting the reader, viewer, tweeter, closer to the moment of detonation? Putting a camera in the hands of a refugee from Syria and asking them to re-cross a hostile border, or taking live footage from cell phones in the middle…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:27:34 +1200

I thought you were suggesting that by making the example of illumination I was fetishising form over content.

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:22:21 +1200

Then what are you arguing against in what I've been saying?

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:21:08 +1200

That's all I'm saying – look to the bigger picture about value exchange and results. Whole domains like librarianship and scholarship were advanced through those monastic efforts.

Er... that happens to be my point!

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:13:54 +1200

it was a form of knowledge

That's all I'm saying – look to the bigger picture about value exchange and results. Whole domains like librarianship and scholarship were advanced through those monastic efforts.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:08:55 +1200

Let's not fetishise its form.

Let's not go down this road, but illuminated manuscripts aren't valuable just for their textual contents. In many cases the illumination itself is more valuable to us. And in fact it was a form of knowledge.

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:07:12 +1200

respond to a cultural need to preserve and enhance texts that they regarded as valuable

They were preserving *knowledge* that was valuable. Let's not fetishise its form.

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:03:24 +1200

There is no reason why we can't mobilise resources to help professions like journalism respond to the current technological shifts

Who's saying that? I totally agree none of this is in a vacuum. We must engage and shape the changes we want. However, it is certainly bigger than our own…

BenWilson

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:02:28 +1200

Seriously, though, when's the last time you heard a piece of music that made you think this is really new, as opposed to this is really good?

Not that often, but when you compare the music collections of my grandma, which was scores only, and the family played piano and…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:00:36 +1200

Is changing, just as the profession of scribe did. 'Indexes' will evolve.

Sorry, no. Let's banish this language. We're not passive receivers of change, and technologies and professions don't evolve independently of society and politics. In the Middle Ages monasteries invested enormous resources for no economic return in the practice…

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:56:05 +1200

I was going to suggest I could write this up as tomorrow's music post, but it seems wrong to ask everyone to stop ...

Rich Lock

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:56:02 +1200

Seriously, though, when's the last time you heard a piece of music that made you think this is really new, as opposed to this is really good?

Probably back when I first started listening to drum'n'bass. Which arguably just lies on/from a continuum of several other genres.

And there are…

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:53:08 +1200

when's the last time you heard a piece of music that made you think this is really new, as opposed to this is really good?

Dubstep, on both counts :)

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:51:05 +1200

But that's fetishism

Certainly explains Lady Gaga.

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:50:33 +1200

the profession of being a writer?

Is changing, just as the profession of scribe did. 'Indexes' will evolve.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:49:11 +1200

If it's in the relationship of appreciation between both those parties, then book tours, limited editions and personally autographed copies are one way to go.

But that's fetishism. Do we really want it to become the index of the profession of being a writer?

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:48:08 +1200

Suppose I'd better clap until they inevitably come back out again' style of today's bands, that's quite remarkably striking.

I remember we drove home a young woman of about 20 who used to work for my partner some years ago and she was telling us about the great concerts that…

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:46:01 +1200

eclecticism is normal when everyone is a DJ

Bravo. Teeworthy.

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:45:24 +1200

means breaking a very important social contract

The corporate middle-men did that a very long time ago by constantly extending the protected period from its orginal 14 years, tipping the balance of the contract in the interests of rights-holders rather than the public.

I respect Clay Shirky's take on the…

Rich Lock

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:42:15 +1200

I don't think there aren't new genres. It's just that there are so many, that none of them seem so titanic as they used to. It's rather like how there don't seem to have been any scientific breakthroughs like what seemed to be happening when Einstein was around. The truth…

BenWilson

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:40:59 +1200

Strict genre divisions have always been more important in the US industry anyway, as a way of dividing audiences for commercial purposes.

Yes! That's how it felt to me, that I could never really wear my musical choices like a badge because they were so damned eclectic. Nowadays I feel…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:40:55 +1200

Totally inappropriate! I demand stricter genre divisions! What next? Cats and dogs living together?

It's like all of a sudden you're all fans of postmodernism :-)

Seriously, though, when's the last time you heard a piece of music that made you think this is really new, as opposed to this…

BenWilson

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:39:47 +1200

Lanier is not saying that there aren't any big, paradigm shifting genres. He's saying that there aren't any new genres, period.

Yes, he repeats the point over and over and I simply disagree. It's like saying there aren't new kinds of books in the library because the Dewey Decimal system…

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:38:25 +1200

...folky singers and dancefloor bangers right next to each other

Totally inappropriate! I demand stricter genre divisions! What next? Cats and dogs living together?

Alex Coleman

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:30:51 +1200

Yes, sorry, I was derailing there a bit.

Not at all; the thread was just evolving. [ducks]

Sacha

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:25:56 +1200

What's with me and thinking that Media 7 is on Wednesdays?

The filming is – that expectation marks you as an insider. :)

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:23:14 +1200

It's like dubstep never happened! ;-)

But this is making me think ... Perhaps the big change is that genre isn't such an important demarcator any more. If you look at Hype Machine, you'll see folky singers and dancefloor bangers right next to each other, being listened to by the…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:20:49 +1200

Not meaning to interrupt

Yes, sorry, I was derailing there a bit. Great link, and very much looking forward to the show tonight (so much so I tried to watch it last night. What's with me and thinking that Media 7 is on Wednesdays?).

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:07:27 +1200

I don't think there aren't new genres. It's just that there are so many, that none of them seem so titanic as they used to.

Lanier is not saying that there aren't any big, paradigm shifting genres. He's saying that there aren't any new genres, period.

Alex Coleman

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:04:49 +1200

Not meaning to interrupt, but on the 'what journalism cometh' question:

As one of the first newspaper journalists to combine a beat and a blog, Gillmor realized, as he put it, “my readers know more than I do.” That was always true. It was true in the 1950s. But when…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:03:20 +1200

The same seems to apply to video games too. In all cases, the trends would likely be further refinement and convergence.

BenWilson

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:57:51 +1200

recordari

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:03:12 +1200

I've started buying vinyl again. Actually spending extra to buy lovely 180gm vinyl that comes with a redemption code to download the MP3s.

+1.

Just on the digital download thing, isn't previewing an album by streaming it online pretty much the same as giving it away?

Can't we record a…

Kumara Republic

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:01:10 +1200

Not that that's perfect, though. I bought the Foster the People album, which advertised its MP3 redemption code on the front — and then discovered that it could be redeemed only from a US IP address. So yeah: I just pirated it.

No export for us, eh? I hate to…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:56:58 +1200

I just don't buy the "it's all fucked" conclusion.

No, neither do I – although I find his bitterness quite... interesting, for want of a better word.

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:54:27 +1200

Twenty years without a new genre. If you listen to him.

The thing is, the last three major new popular musical genres — modern dance music, hip hop and punk rock – didn’t come along at evenly-spaced intervals. They all emerged in a single period of remarkable ferment and, to…

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:49:49 +1200

Actually, to clarify, I think Lanier makes a number of sound points, including with respect to the constricting effect of the machines.

The thing I loved about seeing Holy Fuck play this summer was the way they resist being locked in by machine rhythms — using a film spooler as…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:49:00 +1200

Twenty years without a new genre. If you listen to him.

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:40:22 +1200

I happily defer on this one.

Oh, I'm not saying I'm right, I just don't agree with him.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:34:40 +1200

His views on contemporary pop music are where I think he's really out of touch.

I happily defer on this one.

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:33:07 +1200

And I give Lanier credit as a musician and music critic, more so than in other areas.

Heh. His views on contemporary pop music are where I think he's really out of touch.

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:19:09 +1200

And as far as innovation in writing goes? Fanfic. Hooray!

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:18:44 +1200

Actually, they did:

No, they didn't. They regulated it.

...the how that you do all that is what becomes your business model and I believe we've barely scratched the surface of what will be possible.

That's a lot more reasonable, it seems to me. But aside from the fact that…

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:15:49 +1200

It’s about the fact that you can make stuff available for much lower cost than was previously the case, where you had to buy the paper or vinyl and the press and hire the technicians and the truck drivers and persuade shop owners to stock your output yadda yadda yadda.…

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:10:46 +1200

Lanier would retort that we are not seeing a lot of innovation in music or literature themselves, let alone in the way that they are packaged for consumers. And we are always being sold innovation as one of the upsides of this technological revolution. So where is it?

In a…

nzlemming

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:05:32 +1200

And we are always being sold innovation as one of the upsides of this technological revolution. So where is it?

You're posting on it. You host your blog on it. Innovation is what you do with the technology, not what is done for you.

recordari

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:01:53 +1200

And we are always being sold innovation as one of the upsides of this technological revolution. So where is it?

Unrelated I know, but I'd say this pretty much qualifies. Airbus 2050.

nzlemming

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:59:22 +1200

Copyright law is not a naturally occuring phenomenon, it’s a legal framework. The people who came up with it could have said well, unregulated print media is what there is, and it’s not going away.

Actually, they did:
[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Anne#Substance_of_the_act|"An Act for the Encouragement of Learning, by vesting the Copies of…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:58:47 +1200

You'd want to be careful breaking something that works, though. Via the iTunes Store Apple has paid out $16.6 billion to content owners and $14 billion to music companies. Its system actually favours independent artists. A tax that increases the cost of the equipment favoured by the creative community might…

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:51:25 +1200

I’d hate to use the word bullshit again, but… it’s not up to me. Were it up to me, I would aggressively tax the corporations that are benefitting from the traffic of bits and the new economic models for selling content – the Verizons, the Apples, the Googles of this…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:48:53 +1200

If we had a foolproof system for recognising and rewarding creative works on their innate merit, all this stuff might be less necessary, but we don't have that.

We have never had it, but that's no reason to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good.

We do…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:42:27 +1200

Authors face a more difficult transition than most; they have fewer alternative revenue options. But it's a little surprising we haven't seen more innovation. Dickens wrote novels as magazine serials — why don't we see that now?

Lanier would retort that we are not seeing a lot of innovation in…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:37:49 +1200

Giovanni called it "your brave new world" but it's not mine – it's here and it's not going away.

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Copyright law is not a naturally occuring phenomenon, it's a legal framework. The people who came up with it could have said well, unregulated print media…

nzlemming

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:37:42 +1200

you can put your brilliant work out there and no one will ever find it.

I missed this. My point is that you need to become responsible for getting it found. Which is where/how social media can enable you.

Jonathan Coulton comes to mind as someone who has completely done…

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:36:54 +1200

Whatever the limitations of copyright and the old publishing models, at least there was a pretence that what was rewarded was craft, skill and innovation, not naked self-promotion. The idea that the most successful writers, musicians, journalists and photographers are going to be the ones with the best online reputation…

nzlemming

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:24:36 +1200

The Amanda Palmer phenomenon way eclipses the Dresden Dolls. In fact, I heard of the Dolls through learning about Palmer.

Yes, she did have a record contract with Roadrunner records which she [[http://pitchfork.com/news/34979-amanda-palmer-tells-roadrunner-records-please-drop-me/|finally got out of in April 2010 after much arguing and even released a single called "Please Drop…

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:08:51 +1200

(aargh, I did have a post, but this site is pretty iPhone, and, I assume, iPad unfriendly to copy & paste and editing. Had to give up)

Russell, you Micro$oft tool! ;-)

Heh. Yes, editing in comments windows with iDevices is fitful at best. CactusLab (award-winning iOS developers) are a little…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:59:57 +1200

Maybe not Mao's China or Pol Pot's Kampuchea. Proust would have been slaughtered, on general principles.

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:58:37 +1200

(aargh, I did have a post, but this site is pretty iPhone, and, I assume, iPad unfriendly to copy & paste and editing. Had to give up)

Russell, you Micro$oft tool! ;-)

nzlemming

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:54:28 +1200

The way that talented artists with rich folks always have, I would think. Proust never left home and when his mother died he received a large inheritance that kept him while he did his greatest work.

That business model works in any economy :-)

Seriously? I did not know that.…

Lilith __

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:39:57 +1200

I think Amanda Fucking Palmer is an absolutely perfect example of this new breed of self-promoters – as anyone who saw her presentation(s) at Webstock this year will attest.

Yes...and I think she's amazing and wonderful, but she wasn't an unknown: back in the Dresden Dolls days she had a…

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:14:59 +1200

My original point in using Salinger and Proust was that they were reclusive and would have been unlikely to succeed in a world where you need to become a brand and diversify.

Sure, but it's not just that. I mean take Kafka, who didn't even want his stuff published -…

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:57:41 +1200

My original point in using Salinger and Proust was that they were reclusive and would have been unlikely to succeed in a world where you need to become a brand and diversify.

What succeed means is, of course, another story.

giovanni tiso

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:40:04 +1200

The way that talented artists with rich folks always have, I would think. Proust never left home and when his mother died he received a large inheritance that kept him while he did his greatest work.

From which he never earned a dime anyway, since he died before publishing it.…

recordari

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:06:45 +1200

Thomas Pynchon style

Just read Inherent Vice. Seems there was a lot of weed wherever he's been hiding.

Russell Brown

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 07:59:03 +1200

Talk me through how Marcel Proust makes a living in your brave new world.

The way that talented artists with rich folks always have, I would think. Proust never left home and when his mother died he received a large inheritance that kept him while he did his greatest work.…

webweaver

Thu, 16 Jun 2011 01:42:49 +1200

The internet and twitter offer great new ways to connect with fans you already have, but unless you are very lucky and go viral*, you can put your brilliant work out there and no one will ever find it.

I think Amanda Fucking Palmer is an absolutely perfect example of…

Sacha

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:01:01 +1200

Lily Allen

That's Lily Cooper now.

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:34:29 +1200

May be true up to a point but relies on the crowd to judge what has merit.

The crowd includes critics (and not necessarily just professional ones) who in turn have a following. There is a reason why traditional media companies want in – they realise that social networks do…

Lilith __

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:25:19 +1200

I think quality gets found, but it needs to be displayed in the right context.

That was precisely my point.

ETA to give social networks their due – they are pretty good at promoting unknowns on merit

May be true up to a point but relies on the crowd to…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:22:48 +1200

Actually, I think quality gets found, but it needs to be…

Lilith __

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:11:49 +1200

creating a valued authorial “eye” (as opposed to “voice” for writers) which means getting paid for who you are and what you bring to your photography, rather than for the photo itself.

Seems to me that the ‘personality’ business model works well if you’re already famous, but how you’re supposed…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:39:00 +1200

Fine. But for the record I am far from disdainful of change.

ETA: I owe you an answer for this:

"What does this mean? They manage what exercise? They are purely about marketing, with very large budgets, and I doubt they manage any aspect of it – it's all done…

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:33:19 +1200

No, Giovanni. I won't do that. I don't know why you're so disdainful of either me or change, but you are becoming rather snide and personal and I'm not playing that game.

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:29:09 +1200

That's your misconception but not what I was talking about above. It's actually about engagement, creativity and diversification.

Talk me through how Marcel Proust makes a living in your brave new world.

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:28:11 +1200

You seem to think it’s all about marketing and nothing to do with substance. That’s your misconception but not what I was talking about above. It’s actually about engagement, creativity and diversification.

ETA Because they manage the exercise already,
What does this mean? They manage what exercise? They are purely…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:16:58 +1200

Why?

Because they manage the exercise already, while Salinger and Proust never did. But your examples (and our counterexamples) are meaningless. There are in fact good writers who are excellent self-promoters, probably none more so than Neil Gaiman. What beggars belief is the idea that we should somehow be glad…

bmk

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:36:57 +1200

I mean NIN hated a lot of their own fans ('March of the Pigs') yet built a cult following. I can see authors who likewise shun their fans, live in obscurity Thomas Pynchon style developing a far committed fan base than some author who appears on every talk show and…

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:26:22 +1200

Why?

Martin Lindberg

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:15:11 +1200

I don’t see them personally progressing their brand/reputation online.

Somehow I believe your examples of Danielle Steele, Dan Brown and Tom Clancy would be far more likely to manage that exercise than J.D. Salinger or Marcel Proust (ignoring that they are dead for the sake of argument) if that really…

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:04:14 +1200

Coffee cups. Please.

Some people are making money out of this stuff. The point of the original article was that it's not going to be enough to just take photos anymore.

There’s nothing here that sez people will stop needing professional photographers in all the usual places:weddings, ads, magazines and…

bmk

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:01:33 +1200

Agree with this. The engagement model in music has as you mention worked for NIN and Radiohead neither of whom are the Dan Brown's et al of literature. The big pop acts don't use that model because they rely on their record label pushing their product heavily in the same…

Sacha

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:51:40 +1200

People hire professionals cos they get a job done at least competently- and usually, done well, and with a bit of flair.

In the case of photographers, the value is not just in core shooting ability but the relationship and contextual skills, say for portrait or news settings.

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:49:53 +1200

Ah, sorry, misunderstood.

Can't say I agree, as I think the main point about those writers is that their work IS product, and so suited to a mass market (and mass producer) rather than a cultural inheritance. I don't see them personally progressing their brand/reputation online. Steel has a twitter…

Sacha

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:49:13 +1200

fund a system of micropayments

Rob Stowell

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:47:22 +1200

thus we discover again the PAS rule that all threads lead to copyright ;-)
Yeah.
Lilith ask how a photographer might find value and create new business models. I gave her an answer.
Coffee cups. Please.
There's nothing here that sez people will stop needing professional photographers in all the…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:41:25 +1200

Since Giovanni doesn't seem to get my point, the evolution would be if those writers had to market themselves, instead of being oversold by publishers whose motive is to move product rather than add to meaningful discourse, we might hear less from them and more from other diverse and,dare one…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:34:02 +1200

Put something concrete on the table for how to adapt to it or deal with it.

I'd hate to use the word bullshit again, but... it's not up to me. Were it up to me, I would aggressively tax the corporations that are benefitting from the traffic of bits and…

Martin Lindberg

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:22:47 +1200

...if those writers had to market themselves...

Um, my point was that those are exactly the writers that would benefit from this evolution. I certainly don't share your belief that

we might hear less from them and more from other diverse and,dare one say, more deserving voices

Quite the opposite.

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:19:38 +1200

That would be nice. Are any doing it?

Not really. There are some lone voices here and there, but the general attitude is that laissez faire capitalism is going to take care of this one. Of course there is intense private interest in the discussion being polarised between the untenable…

Sacha

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:14:21 +1200

any society that at this juncture in history refuses to engage in a wide-ranging debate on what is to be valued in its cultural artefacts, and how to reward its intellectuals, its journalists and its artists has no business calling itself civilised.

That would be nice. Are any doing it?

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:08:06 +1200

but any society that at this juncture in history refuses to engage in a wide-ranging debate on what is to be valued in its cultural artefacts, and how to reward its intellectuals, its journalists and its artists has no business calling itself civilised.

I'm not disputing that position nor am…

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:05:50 +1200

Exactly.

Er... what?

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:01:15 +1200

Exactly.

ETA Since Giovanni doesn't seem to get my point, the evolution would be if those writers had to market themselves, instead of being oversold by publishers whose motive is to move product rather than add to meaningful discourse, we might hear less from them and more from other diverse…

Martin Lindberg

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:58:46 +1200

But is it worse? Danielle Steel, Tom Clancy, Dan Brown FFS! This is quality?

Those seem like perfect examples of writers that would only benefit from this evolution.

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:39:24 +1200

But is it worse? Danielle Steel, Tom Clancy, Dan Brown FFS!

Is that your argument? Really? Because you know... Nadine Gordimer, Italo Calvino, Toni Morrison.

(Also, Tom Clancy has had his moments, but we'll let that go.)

I'm not replacing anything, Gio. It's happening and I'm just reporting on it.…

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:19:40 +1200

But is it worse? Danielle Steel, Tom Clancy, Dan Brown FFS! This is quality? Besides, I'm not replacing anything, Gio. It's happening and I'm just reporting on it. I think it's called evolution...

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:11:25 +1200

You got that bit right ;-)

Yes, nobody is saying that the system was perfect. No reason in itself to replace it with something exponentially worse.

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 17:08:02 +1200

there was a pretence

You got that bit right ;-)

giovanni tiso

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:47:06 +1200

CwF+RtB=TBM – Connect with Fans + Reason to Buy = The Business Model. It meshes with something Kevin Kelly wrote in 2008 called 1000 True Fans and gives you a way to collect those fans, by connecting with them rather than waiting for them to find your genius ;-)

Whatever…

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:29:45 +1200

Musicians can make money touring, even if they’re not making anything from selling albums. I don’t really see how photographers can do something analogous. It’s not a performance art! How can we add value?

At the risk of starting yet another shitfight about copyright, I’ll try to give you an…

Geoff Lealand

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:14:53 +1200

Incidentally, good topic for Media 7!

Geoff Lealand

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:14:21 +1200

I share some of the misgivings about the number of student churning through journalism/Media Studies/journalism courses in NZ but are significant differences between these variations of media teaching: journalism courses tend to emphasise vocationalism, with a stress on print media (only belatedly are they beginning to embrace electronic newsgathering, Web…

Lilith __

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:10:59 +1200

“we are stuck on licensing/selling intellectual content by the “unit” (a book, an album, a photograph)” and that photographers need to realise that we’re now in “a “streaming culture,” that moves away from the unit”.

Musicians can make money touring, even if they're not making anything from selling albums. I…

nzlemming

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:47:42 +1200

So they’re talking about working to commission rather than licensing stock images? Or something else?

Working to commission, establishing partnerships, creating specific types of images as art – all of these things play to creating a valued authorial "eye" (as opposed to "voice" for writers) which means getting paid for…

Russell Brown

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:23:44 +1200

I’d agree, caveated with “for some people”, and also “at certain times of life”. Living on $5,000 pounds per year might seem admirable to him, but if you’re putting your family through that, it’s a whole lot less noble.

For sure. When you're supporting a family, things change. But I've…

Lilith __

Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:03:41 +1200

My read is that Steven Mayes has realised that the money is no longer in selling reprints and licensing images (dare I say, “the copyright culture”) but in partnerships and reputation, but he’s marketing it as “integrity” so it sounds better.

So they're talking about working to commission rather than…