Keir, I didn't mention ethnicity. Obviously if I'm the sixth generation then a process of elimination says I'm almost certainly pakeha, but it wasn't me who said "white New Zealander".

Fair enough; I was mainly responding to Tom.

Why is it always nth gen white New Zealanders? Why not nth gen Chinese New Zealander or whatever?

Like the author of this post as it's being typed.

Dub:

i think in a not too distant future it will be possible to cherry pick the best things from various cultures and…

http://www.progressive.org.nz/latestnews/files/b9cc0e0a1f34f10b05671f78a8045bb6-59.html

He has it on record that he conflated issues of Afghistan as a failed state and 9/11 as being a threat to the civilised world. No Afghanis were hijackers most were Saudis.

Caleb, could you link to Anderton's pro-war speech?

I was thinking of some especially craven TV spots he gave in the immediate wake of the 9/11 attacks. They're seared in my memory because of how jarring they seemed, but I have no idea if they're anywhere on the internet.

When a vocal segment of an indigenous people is calling for repatriation of all other peoples, it actually matters a whole lot as to what my origin is. Oh, sure, I know it's never going to happen, but that doesn't mean I don't care.

But the response to that claim…

Everytime I've heard him he goes on about a CD force.

After 9/11 (12September here) the Chalice in the Square had just been opened. Its has an asymmetrical position in the square, but this relects the little whirl wind it depicts. It…

I'm sorry that I picked on you Giovanni, I set you up to make a point.

On the contrary, I like it when people make my arguments for me – saves me a lot of time, and it has been quite a busy week chez this recent immigrant's.

If you…

A little short of 1000yrs and still my family aren't considered Irish by some.

Here's a celebration of Xenophobia from WWI
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Antiques-collectables/Militaria/Badges/auction-252639557.htm

there is a legitimate Pakeha culture, and it could be awesome

Totally. Strengthened by our partnership with Maori and the broader diversity of all who have settled here since. Fear or loathing are not helpful.

a vocal segment of an indigenous people is calling for repatriation of all other peoples

They're a really tiny vocal segment, and most people think they're wackaloons. Then people with shoulder-chips end up taking this extremism as an excuse to whine endlessly about Pakeha identity and ignore perfectly legitimate Maori…

FFS, I know there's a lot of people out there who are never going to reach the Fifth Stage of grieving where FPP is concerned, but we're living in an MMP environment, the world has not ended, and it is just time to Get. Over. It.

Given that I wasn't…

"agressively nationalistic agenda"

So Winston is our local hero?

I'm sorry that I picked on you Giovanni, I set you up to make a point.

Sure you did – the point being that for you, to "look to Australia for ideas" from its "agressively nationalistic agenda" means aping Pauline Hanson, right down to the faux-prophetic nationalist cod-mysticism. Immigration built,…

a distinct Pakeha nationalist identity

Tom, I reckon Michael King and others have had interesting things to say about being Pakeha. It's not the same as Maori, though.

I believe nationalism is dying out in favour of communities of interest and affinity that are both more local and more global.…

I'm sorry that I picked on you Giovanni, I set you up to make a point.

Now you know how a lot of six generation white New Zealanders feel when they get told they are not "Tangata Whenua".

Refresh my memory: the dissolution of the Alliance was because of internal strife on whether or not to support a Government policy?

Both — and it only had any impact on the ability of the Government to function when Clark was fishing around for a pretext to call a snap…

Thank you Kyle.

When did you arrive here again? Are you sure you are qualified to take part in a discussion between real New Zealanders?

Let's not forget the land stealing and paternalism too.

Thank you Sacha.

NZ has an indigenous people, who (largely) signed a treaty with the Crown which allowed New Zealand to become what it is today. The attempts of people to move on from that basic fact now that chickens have…

I'm now the sixth generation on my father's side to call NZ home,

I find this interesting. For some reason, elite opinion in this country is in denial of the existance or legitimacy of popular Pakeha nationalism and uncomfortable even with the idea of a distinct Kiwi identity. It is…

This country has no true native peoples, just varying degrees of remove from trans-oceanic immigrants.

You can redefine the term until it's useless. Go back to Gondwanaland and very little that we consider native in NZ was here. Native in reality means "was here when white people arrived". We're all…

in the long term, those two things are largely incompatible

Quite. A smart, ambitious leader might direct investment, action and marketing into sustainable farming and sustainable tourism. Be the most green tourist destination, that kind of thing. 100% pure, if you like.

H1 and H2 managed to keep things seemly until well into the second term, despite the media waiting beneath the tightrope with bared, dripping fangs.

Matthew: Sorry, but you've really got to stop re-writing history here. Clark didn't do a damn thing to stop the Alliance melting down — and…

Squandering our unearned green marketing advantage is far from "ambitious".

Absolutely. I remember listening to Key's two-handed-head-clutcher of a victory speech last year and thinking the same thing. "Nuh Zillun's got food and it's got scenery!" Great. Nice one, John. You do realize that, in the long term, those two…

The European farming lobbyists have been looking for ammo to undermine NZ produce in their markets and we've given it to them through our government's craven sucking up to big polluters, construction companies and oil giants.

by what methods a people can become some version of tangata whenua

Yeah, I'm curious about that. If we include the first immigrant in my family tree as the first generation, I'm now the sixth generation on my father's side to call NZ home, and at least fourth on my…

Everybody seems to forget that Labour chose to participate in the invasion of Afghanistan knowing it was resulting in civil war within the Alliance.

After the September 11 attacks on the United States, planned and orchestrated from within the failed Afghan state, an invasion of that place to root out…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KFVvN7QESk

not everyone does know that. certainly not your average white muthafucka

I don't have it with me now, but I'm pretty sure it's in Keith Sinclair's History of New Zealand, which is about as white muthafucka as you can get about New Zealand history. I think it's in King, as…

fairly light-weight article at Granny

It's worse than "light-weight", just another unquestioning regurgitation of govt spin and big-upping Key.

i was talking more about whitey legitimately claiming tangata whenua status by virtue of having occupied your lands and breeding with you for centuries.

i'm talkin bout takin the best they got, not taking the worst in the form of corporate capitalism…

Your second paragraph is obviated by
a) one of your earlier comments about the Blue & Pink census Books &
b)by those records themselves.

No further…

But... everyone knows Ngai Tahu weren't the 'original settlers of the South Island'.

but danielle not everyone does know that. certainly not your average white muthafucka and its not like you guys promote it either. its not in your best interest and neither is it to acknowledge brailsford as anything…

H1 and H2 managed to keep things seemly until well into the second term, despite the media waiting beneath the tightrope with bared, dripping fangs.

Not exactly. Everybody seems to forget that Labour chose to participate in the invasion of Afghanistan knowing it was resulting in civil war within the…

he found out the truth that they werent indigenous or the original settlers of the sth island

But... everyone knows Ngai Tahu weren't the 'original settlers of the South Island'. You're all 'gotcha!' about an accepted fact. Boring old Te Ara encyclopaedia entry:

'The process was again one of small…

I'm quite disgusted at how little coverage the issue between the Greens and National is getting from the MSM. So far I see one, fairly light-weight article at Granny, and absolutely nothing at Stuff or either of the major TV news sites.

National currently has issues with 3/4 of…

I'm quite disgusted at how little coverage the issue between the Greens and National is getting from the MSM. So far I see one, fairly light-weight article at Granny, and absolutely nothing at Stuff or either of the major TV news sites.

Efficiency is actually a major issue. If the…

National currently has issues with 3/4 of its partners,…

Hint: Brailsford's version is in no way 'the true story of Ngai Tahu.' It's not 'the…

Titewhai also said on TV somewhere the other day that the big deal about the email was strange when they were english words made up by the white man.

Well if they'd been in Euskadi it probably wouldn't have made much of an impact.

Damn you people only taking offense…

Place idiots in boat push away from shore, retreat rapidly, duck as required.......

Even better, put them in a canoe, and ask them whether it's a waka or a whaka.

Your house must be a mess! :)

Most of the walls are solid concrete block. It's my head and the furniture that's a bloody mess. :)

Titewhai also said on TV somewhere the other day that the big deal about the email was strange when they were english words made…

We are fortunate that Mr. Scott was able to interview surviving participants and was able to…

Oy... looks like I timed my morning crap well to miss that, or I'd have had a fatal head-desk moment with the kitchen wall.

Your house must be a mess! :)

Oy... looks like I timed my morning crap well to miss that, or I'd have had a fatal head-desk moment with the kitchen wall.

Completely off topic but fantastic work by Pundit on the energy efficiency part of the Greens' agreement with the Nats quietly imploding over the last few months

Absolutely. A genuine scoop while everyone else was focused on the behaviour of attention-seekers.

EVIDENCE

Every time Goff takes a jab at Harawira, he shrinks. If he keeps it up, by the end of this week he'll have vanished.

So,so true.

Wonder what Hone H brought back for his wider whanau?

His Stories?

As it turns out, a million Hawaiian T-shirts.

Every time Goff takes a jab at Harawira, he shrinks. If he keeps it up, by the end of this week he'll have vanished.

Overview and Fitzsimons hereself.

And now he's obliquely referring to the French Revolution (although Goff as Louis XVI is a bit of a stretch).

I don't know, the economic state of the ancien regime does have some parallels with the modern day.

Or just watch Queen Margot – great fight scenes.

Sam's right, there's an awesome Dan Brown novel in here somewhere.

With the entirety of Pakeha New Zealand as the bumbling-yet-effective pillager of the fortunes of the oppressed, and the intrepid "Mr Honiara" as the leader of a secret society rallying against the iniquities of said pillager. Trying to work…

Sam's right, there's an awesome Dan Brown novel in here somewhere.

Although he may not have read Dan Brown, he's seen the movie.

Au contraire, I smell a literary parody in the making. Or a first sentence at least...

"Renowned politician Hone Harawira staggered through his formulaic media outburst"

True, perhaps Hone was trying to convey theological French history and his preference for approaching indigenous rights through the lens of Roman Catholicism...

Probably. Although he may not have read Dan Brown, he's seen the movie.

screams the headline, so naturally i'm thinkin he's bumrushed him and beat him up or worse taken the patu to him

but nah he's just dissed him on the radio...meh

the only thing getting beat up is the story...zzzzzzzzz

i have to go into town today past nick smiths office so i may as well see if i can start a process of getting clarification on and protection for the estuary here.

apprently the iwi had a decision reversed by the courts last year despite previous…

dubmugga – true history of Kai Tahu eh?

You're shit & wind mate, a nothingness.

i feel your pain and can understand your embarassment now that we all know ngai tahu didnt exist in th sth island as an iwi till they came down from up north and ate everyone in…

I'm obviously not cut out for membership of the National party.

Try someone with a double major in politics and classics, who shared a few tutorials with a current Labour MP. :)

a pretty well known term

I'm obviously not cut out for membership of the National party. Hang on, there's always Tolley..

Having studied neither law nor Latin, not really. I'm guessing it means "first amongst equals"? Do feel free to simply say that in the first place.

Aw, I'll stick to the Latin because it's a pretty well known term that expressed the idea that Parliament is ostensibly a collegial body…

I'm guessing it means "first amongst equals"?

That's the problem with communicating this way. If you could just see the other bastard's tie, you'd get a pretty fair idea of whether they'd have sufficient Latin to patronise you.

Does the phrase primus inter pares mean anything to you?

Having studied neither law nor Latin, not really. I'm guessing it means "first amongst equals"? Do feel free to simply say that in the first place.

look at it this way. hone led that delegation and some traits of a good leader are the ability to prioritise and delegate.

Other traits of a good leader are telling the truth, being able to handle criticism without melting down, and following though on a commitment, especially when you…

You're shit & wind mate, a nothingness.

We're marooning Laws and Hone Harawira together? Excellent. Pretty sure there's a reality TV show in there somewhere, too.

I've never liked reality TV, but the Running Man is too good for those two.

"When Wanganui sort out their mayor we'll sort out Hone."

They meant Whanganui, surely?

Place idiots in boat push away from shore, retreat rapidly, duck as required.......

We're marooning Laws and Hone Harawira together? Excellent. Pretty sure there's a reality TV show in there somewhere, too.

"When Wanganui sort out their mayor we'll sort out Hone."

Place idiots in boat push away from shore, retreat rapidly, duck as required.......

I need to get a new desk — the old one is beginning to splinter under the pressure of repeated blows with my head. :)

Place idiots in boat push away from shore, retreat rapidly, duck as required.......

And totally understands art'n'life-

http://www.flowthefilm.com/

And met a local hero – The Sanddancer. The guy who draws sand pictures on Brighton Beach as you look from the Pier.

I think it uninformed – & stupid- to rave about matters that were commonplace
in days gone by as though thpse were especial Kai Tahu failings. And especially irritating to have a nutcase like Brailsford held up as an exemplar of research&discovery in South Island matters.

i think it quite enlightening to…

look at it this way. hone led that delegation and some traits of a good leader are the ability to prioritise and delegate. he obviously didnt think the meeting worthy of his time and prioritised his lady instead. choosing family over work is after all…

(Of course, it was also a good political…

i just dont think it's as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be, that doesn t make me thick or a troll so you can quit it with that shit as well. k'thx:)

Dubmugga: It certainly doesn't, but gratuitously trolling for a fight with EVERYONE on a…

i just dont think it's as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be . . .

I more or less agree, though the reservations Harawira has expressed about the dead rats that he feels his party has had to swallow would seem a lot less self-serving if…

There was more intermarriage than killing.

Conquest by the "pork sword",
a more humane assimilation
and blurring of bloodlines...

...could be a whole new fantasy genre:
Pork Sword & Sourcery
(an existential Gene Pool Satire)

Back when Dalvanius Prime travelled to London to make initial arrangements for Patea Maori's appearance in the Royal Variety Show he visited Harrods, where he bought a wide selection of the lowest-priced items he could find. On his return, all the local Patea kids got to…

oh so it wasnt even at taxpayers expense, then whats the problem ?

oh please... its not like any of us have never pulled a sickie and skived off work for the day.

Oh, for fuck's sake Dubmugga — you're either thick as week old custard, or I'm going to…

he is answerable first and foremost to his electorate and if they accept him as mediocre then sweet by me

besides, i'd be…

i mean, he prolly would have done it no…

and exactly what of whiteys rules did he break

Being an adult, and doing what he was being paid to do – go to the meeting. He wasn't being paid to skive off to Paris, he was being paid to represent NZ as part of a multi-party delegation. If he…

you agree to marry a certain personage because your father or brother/s will thereby live?

yeah what was practised among the captured bluebloods was not quite enslavement but in those instances not something you'd neccessarily want the rellies to know or get recorded in the annals of history either unless…

But as you know – a slave had no mana – and no highborn would so contaminate his offsprings' bloodlines.

'Forced' is another kettle…

on a serious note though, do the whakapapa lines say why or how the marriages came to be ?

funnily enough i can whakapapa back to my paternal great grandfather who was irish and arrived in NZ maybe about four generations after…

He was commissioned by Kai Tahu to write a history of Ngai Tahu whanui – and he veered away markedly…

You could lobby the council to introduce a bylaw banning vehicles from the beach.

Or you could try and persuade central government to generally ban cars from beaches, as is the law…

Hide and Harawira are discovering why.

We have high standards when it comes to playing cute with public money in this country.

And I am not of a mind to think we should start changing those…

So what are all the Nat boys doing in Japan for a couple of dinner parties and Rugby games? Oh that's right, photo op of John announcing a definite knighthood for Richie Mc whatever his name is. Slick timing or urgent meetings?

I didn't say those sort of trips aren't…

what legal recourse do i have to protect the shellfish beds from people constantly driving over it to launch their boats at low tide ?

You could lobby the council to introduce a bylaw banning vehicles from the beach.

Or you could try and persuade central government to generally ban…

"play by whitey's rules": your actions are publicly judged. He might not care about what other people think, but he's a fool if he thinks what other people think doesn't matter in the context of his career as an MP.

The point is he is not white. he has always…

So what do you suggest Lucy? the Naughty step or a Smack?.

Oh, definitely the Naughty Step.

And Hone actually got permission from the person he was having the meeting with to forego said meeting the next day.Hone paid his wifes fare himself. He spoke to the woman in Brussels…

i'm all for playing the game by your own rules and like hone, fuck what whitey thinks.

It's hardly as if the criticism is coming exclusively along racial lines.

On one hand we have Rodney taking advantage of perks that only a few in Parliament have got and has since…

If you don't like the rules, don't play the game, but don't start claiming that your ethnicity gives you a free pass to break the rules.

Well, I would think this whole thread was about Maori trying to figure out their best path forward with the Treaty and this is…

sometimes you gotta bite the hand that feeds ya especially if they arent feeding you enough or often enough or just feeding you the wrong food.

Animals that do that are usually not fed again, rather than pampered and forgiven. Nothing tames an animal like starvation, and if they go…

...the understanding is, it's ok to lie ,it's actually expected of you as a politician just dont get caught and thats where brownies fail cos we're just not good at it, just ask taito

i'm…

White motherf...ers have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries, and all of a sudden you want me to play along with their puritanical bulls... .

cos it's not as if that statement is untrue?

If Hone wants to take whitey's money and play in whitey's sandpit,…

White motherf...ers have been raping our lands and ripping us off for centuries, and all of a sudden you want me to play along with their puritanical bulls... .

cos it's not as if that statement is…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/3040595/Meridian-wind-farm-rejected

I'm not opposed to wind generation, it was noted by Cook and there's a Maori god of the wind who was resident in a few places of…

cos c'mon...an irrelevent meeting in…

this has been quite the week for spectacular stupidity by members of the coalition

Hasn't it indeed? Call me cynical, but Hone pressing his intemperent buttons really has made you all forget about Rodney and his flagrant perking, followed by dissing our Glorious Leader. As it was meant to.

Also don't recall Winston ever referring to large swathes of the country as puritanical, colonialist-oppressor motherfuckers, though prepared to be corrected on that one.

Nah, Winston spent years heaping abuse on those cat-eating, slit-eyed shitbags who lived only to get on welfare, refuse to learn English and how to use…

Now you can call me crazy if you must, but am I the only person who thinks it's no accident that Turia had to front this shitstorm (and did a pretty good job, IMO) while Sharples was nowhere to be seen?

It sounds more likely that Tariana is fronting this…

So Wrodney is doing himself out of a job, as Winston did before him.

Any thoughts if Hone will stand as an independant if Taria puts travel restrictions on him?

I fear the story is now not what Hone did, but the email he sent.

But – call me crazy if you must – I've got a funny feeling calling the vast majority of the population "puritanical motherfuckers" won't end well for Mr. Harawira.

On top of lying to his leader, and deciding to have his e-mail meltdown all over Buddy Mikaere (hardly a tame…

But – call me crazy if you must – I've got a funny feeling calling the vast majority of the population "puritanical motherfuckers"…

No? Let's put Harawira's stupidity all on him, and leave it there.

I don't think the two cock-ups are related, but like Just Thinking I think Hide will be grateful he's slipped one down the list of '5 most stupid things an MP did this week'.

To some degree surely Hone is acting as a diversion for Key as Hide self destructs in public and all over Johns shiney shoes too.

No? Let's put Harawira's stupidity all on him, and leave it there. Meanwhile, I can't really get the indignation gland pumping over the leader of…

To some degree surely Hone is acting as a diversion for Key as Hide self destructs in public and all over Johns shiney shoes too.

Is Hone hinting at going it…

He's acting as if going to Paris is something he'd never have a chance to do otherwise. Um, dude, you're a well-paid person with a lot of time off and there are flights to Europe *every day*.

My partner very saliently pointed out that this sounds like a function of…

Breaking news ... Key in 'Not Relaxed' shock:

Heh, I was just thinking the same thing. Finally we know what unsettles John – dishing out crude racial insults (in the direction of the very group who transferred a great deal of their support from Labour to National…

However, any member of parliament who can write "The Louvre, made famous by Dan Browns "The Da Vinci Code" DESERVES to be hunted down by white art gallery curators and killed with a plastic spoon.

It's not as if Paris is Brigadoon, FFS...

Not as far away as you may think.

Origins of the story

Lerner's book was based on a much older German story by Friedrich Gerstäckerlater translated by Charles Brandon Schaeffer, about the mythical village of Germelshausen that fell under an evil magic curse.…

I love the part where he pretends to be sick and sneaks off to Paris. What is he, 12?

I'm reliably informed that lying to Tariana Turia is ten pounds of stupid in a five pound bag. Really, she might look like a Womble on Mogadon but pissing her off…

"Prime Minister John Key has labelled MP Hone Harawira's email on white people "deeply offensive" and he wants action from the coalition partner the Maori Party.

"Hone has a history of making intemperate and outrageous comments and this one is right up…

It's not as if Paris is Brigadoon, FFS...

Heh. 'It only appears once a century! And I wanted to meet Van Johnson and Cyd Charisse!'

i've talked to another resident who collects shellfish, fishes…

"Photo-ops for Waitangi Day: Holding hands with Titewhai Harawira – cancelled. Suggest revert to car ride, will find cute kid."

He's digging himself a deep one.

Quoted for truthy understatement. :) And I'm not being snarky about giving Turia props either — she gets what's stinky about Harawira's conduct, and isn't reflexively trying to defend the indefensible.

He's acting as if going to Paris is something he'd never have a…

Now he's had email exchanges released to the media, in which he attacks "white man's bullshit".

He's digging himself a deep…

As I'll say in my Pulbic Address Radio piece this week (Radio Live, Sunday, 7pm): I want the Maori Party to be a credible voice for Maori…

seems we arent that special after all and soon there really will be no magic and mystery left...ooooh cant wait

can just see all the cracka ass crackas…

...and BTW i seen another 4 wheel drive launch their boat off a trailer by driving across the estuary at low tide. it's not a good look eh

Even if Velikovsky were still alive it doesn't sound like the kind of thing he'd do. More the sort of lowlife stunt…

...and BTW i seen another…

yeah go on shed a tear and have a drink for this old timer as well

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-me-claude-levi-strauss4-2009nov04,0,890035.story

Hadn't seen that news. Thanks.

100 years eh?... Nice round number. I'll have a drink for the old timer. (Heck, any excuse...)

surely someone like velikovsky cant have been completely of his rocker and neither is brailsford.

Velikovsky was just wrong. That is not in question. His proposals are physically impossible and scientifically ludicrous – we're not talking improbable but possible, we're talking divine intervention levels of impossible. We're talking violating the…

The acceptance and use of Maori in every day speak, ie Kia ora and rotflnui (often seen on this forum). The…

i'd like to think that…

There's a school of thought which says you can't trust any myths as history, because of precisely this. I think it's a bit overdone, but correlation is the only way to be certain

And that particular school will be heavily coloured by the modern reliance on written record. As I…

do you have any actual history recommendations worth reading ?

Belich and King have both written on the topic.

The distrust of hearsay as evidence in criminal prosecutions is well-founded, and that's only dealing with the very recent past. How far magnified is the effect of decades, or centuries, and countless recitations?

There's a school of thought which says you can't trust…

So... this thread keeps on finding new, discrete ways to be annoying, doesn't it?

I'm kind of enjoying it on an Aotearoan Da Vinci Code -slash- Chariots of the Gods? kind of level.

All helps to pass the time until my filthy mongrel Anglophone culture slips into deserved extinction.