How does an alliance of Military heavyweights ensure a campaign against a small time militia outfit lasts for 8 years?

I heard this comment from a senior Navy NCO during a training course on how to keep safe if my humanitarian activities see me sent to any of the multitude…

In the real world, words have meanings and facts aren't an optional extra. And I'm out...

Sure. Let's try this one, then, on evasion vs. avoidance: when people on lower incomes want to hide some of their money from the IRD, they need to resort to illegal means; when wealthy…

Maggie talked to some of the locals – I don't think any of the stories she wrote about it got picked up by the papers. She also bought rugs off the locals. They're in our lounge.

Can you pass on my apologies, then? We've said that that there were no…

http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2009/08/13/who-is-funding-the-afghan-taliban-you-dont-want-to-know/

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/afghanistan/100119/afghanistan-corruption-us-investigation

Fund them.

Oh, noes. I might get sued for libel by "the wealthy".

Oh noes — making shit up is OK as long as I'm flinging it at people I don't like. What is this, Kiwibog?

Yes; well aware of that, thanks. In the real word, any accountant will tell you that…

none of the accompanying journalists did their reporting beyond the arranged interview opportunities, or spoke to the locals.

Maggie talked to some of the locals – I don't think any of the stories she wrote about it got picked up by the papers. She also bought rugs off the locals.…

Avoidance, noun: tax evasion practiced by someone who can afford an accountant.

Noice

...renters being driven out to starve in the hedgerows.

We still have hedgerows!?
Luxury!

But... I'd still be worried
about spray drift or being
crushed by irrigation machines...

In the real word, any accountant will tell you that it's not so black and white.

When it comes to trusts and companies, it's pretty clear-cut if you keep your books in order and don't try to get clever with cheap rents or "company cars", or dividend streaming and related-party…

And the difference there is if the people in one category get caught, they pay big fines or go to jail.

Quite. And it's not just "the poor" who get nailed for evasion, either. Proportionately I suspect that "the wealthy" get hit much harder for evasion, because they'll be evading…

Evasion is a crime, avoidance is not. Some avoidance schemes cross the line (ask the banks) and become evasion, but the two are not the same thing.

Yes; well aware of that, thanks. In the real word, any accountant will tell you that it's not so black and white.

Loving all the argument before the budget announcement.

The countdown is on!

Oh, noes. I might get sued for libel by "the wealthy".

You'll also incur the ire of people such as myself who have some education in taxation. Evasion is a crime, avoidance is not. Some avoidance schemes cross the line (ask the banks) and become evasion, but the two are…

That's my point Matthew. Rich people tend to avoid taxes legally (some undoubtably don't). The rest of us are probably more likely to use illegal measures to not pay tax.

And the difference there is if the people in one category get caught, they pay big fines or go to…

Nearly all of your examples are outright illegal, being tax evasion or fraud. Even barter is taxable, and work-for-work is arguably taxable.

That's my point Matthew. Rich people tend to avoid taxes legally (some undoubtably don't). The rest of us are probably more likely to use illegal measures to not…

Well, I never quite said that. All your examples do happen, of course, but mostly people just work for an employer and pay their tax.

I work for an employer full time and pay tax (and student loan and child support).

I've also done all of the things listed in…

I am hoping that those on lower incomes will be heartened by some tightening down on all the ways that the wealthier taxpayers avoid having to pay their share. If this can result in an increase in the tax-take from the upper…

Self-employed taking cash, people working under the table, selling things as a job and not declaring it, work done under a barter system or trading work for work.

Also beneficiaries doing work not declaring their income are paying tax, but not telling MSD about their income etc. ACC recipients doing…

Might help if you didn't treat "avoidance" and "evasion" as interchangeable synonyms, which they aren't in the context of a useful discussion of tax policy.

That's right, I looked them up.

Avoidance, noun: tax evasion practiced by someone who can afford an accountant.

The idea that the rich are the only people who try and work the system to their best advantage is a little silly.

Well, I never quite said that. All your examples do happen, of course, but mostly people just work for an employer and pay their tax.

I guess…

Really? Most people have only a wage or salary for income, so how?

Self-employed taking cash, people working under the table, selling things as a job and not declaring it, work done under a barter system or trading work for work.

Also beneficiaries doing work not declaring their income are…

Oh, I despair. Now you're calling me prejudiced for being against tax evasion.

Bovine excrement, I am. Might help if you didn't treat "avoidance" and "evasion" as interchangeable synonyms, which they aren't in the context of a useful discussion of tax policy. I also had it explained to me in…

I suspect almost everyone tries to avoid paying taxes, for most of us it's just not worth paying an accountant to help us.

Really? Most people have only a wage or salary for income, so how?

What's the definition of "the wealthy" in this context?

In this context, it's those…

...the wealthy dodge their tax responsibilities

What's the definition of "the wealthy" in this context?

3410: No, I'm suggesting that there's nothing particularly useful in sneering generalisations about an ill-defined collective noun. It's knowledge, bro.

Now you're calling me prejudiced for being against tax evasion.

The original quote was:

Those with higher income are often the first to admit they pay their accountants to avoid…

3410: No, I'm suggesting that there's nothing particularly useful in sneering generalisations about an ill-defined collective noun. It's knowledge, bro.

Oh, I despair. Now you're calling me prejudiced for being against tax evasion.

Anyone else having trouble with the site?

No — but I generally blame my crap connection and elderly equipment (you in the back, stop sniggering) for such whackness. :)

I'm afraid the govt spin machine is not honouring Craig's sense of fairness

Sacha: I'm kind of embarrased by all these years my partner and I've wasted not "dodging our tax obligations" like proper rich pricks.

And, yes, while I doubt the Budget is going to go as far as…

people paying the top personal rate included skilled professionals like... engineers

Aha. Ahahahahah. Ahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

Ohhhhh, that's a good one. He is a card, that Mr Key.

Craig, you appear to be about the only one who believes it's just prejudice to suggest that the wealthy dodge their tax responsibilities

3410: No, I'm suggesting that there's nothing particularly useful in sneering generalisations about an ill-defined collective noun. It's knowledge, bro.

*Well the branch I ended up in. The money in question was a summer studentship (it was either…

By contrast, I wonder how many burly bodyguards Blue Chip douchebag Bryers will have with him at the court tomorrow when he is lightly slapped with a wet bus ticket as one of his…

"What I actually said on Monday was that people paying the top personal rate included skilled professionals like doctors, engineers, scientists, and the like who fit into some core and critical categories in the economy," Mr Key said.

"Those people are in demand all around…

Why don't they just have the courage of their convictions like the honourable Ruth Richardson and Jenny Shipley did?

Those with higher income are often the first to admit they pay their accountants to avoid paying taxes.

Really, Sofie — since you went there, is that on the same planet of anecdotage where solo mothers fuck anything that moves as a revenue-gathering strategy?

Craig, you appear to be about…

Cos they never crash eh?.

Very, very rarely, given how many flight hours are clocked up each year. If one is going to object to flights over residential areas based on the risk of a crash, better to object to single-engine light planes.

they were flying without lights and in close formation... over peoples houses FFS in the dark. If this were just an exercise then I think it damned irresponsible and downright dangerous

The pilots are all wearing night-vision goggles, as are their co-pilots. It's not particularly more dangerous than any other…

How long is the deployment intended for?
The first NZ PRT deployment to Afghanistan departed in August 2003 on a four month rotation. The mission is currently mandated to September 2011. Deployed personnel currently serve in the PRT for six months.

I…

It seems perfectly consistent with the overall belief that rich people deserve more money to reward them and to motivate them to be more successful and that this is the best way to make the nation "successful"

And at any level of income, a person who earns more takes home…

Are you kidding? They're flattening it now, have done once already, and, if Bill English is to be believed, have yet another round planned.

We'll have to wait to see what is in the actual budget. But according to stuff:

As well as the cut from 38 per cent to…

As some observers have been saying for many moons, tomorrow's tax changes are likely to disproportionately benefit the top 8% of…

Apart from the fact that no one has seriously proposed flat income tax in NZ for 20 something years.

Oh, 20-something years ago, when the top tax rate was 66%?

Are you kidding? They're flattening it now, have done once already, and, if Bill English is to be believed, have…

Okay, technically you're right. It's not a lie; it's a trick, but it's a dishonest representation of the situation, all the same.

You could equally say that a Cheetah running at 20kph is "fast" and a tortoise doing 15kph is "slow", but that also ignores the context.

That's a silly…

Okay, so lets talk about the quality or otherwise of the policy then.

It would be a refreshing novelty. You can start.

Sorry for the mansplain here, but Helen Clark's uterus is fundamentally irrelevant to the quality or otherwise of the policies she promoted

Okay, so lets talk about the quality or otherwise of the policy then. I presume you think that the wealthy are being unfairly burdened under the current tax…

ETA: @Craig snap! I pay what I need to – no more, no less. And yes, I have an accountant to do this for me.

My partner and I don't need to — we're just rather rather anal about paperwork and spend tax season gently grinding our teeth while filling…

Those with higher income are often the first to admit they pay their accountants to avoid paying taxes.

Jeez, you now have to admit to using an accountant.

ETA: @Craig snap! I pay what I need to – no more, no less. And yes, I have an accountant to do…

"But ... those who pay the top personal rate fit into some core and critical categories for our economy. They include doctors, entrepreneurs often, scientists, engineers, lawyers, accountants, school principals, nurses," he said.

Ah, hello . . . I'm married to a nurse and therefore know quite a few of…

*yawn* So the "$50 Million PM" should STFU,

Yes he fuking should.
If Helen had said all people with more than one baby should just get a job,(oh that's Paula ) then I'd suggest your comparison is apt, meanwhile it just sounds petty and by know means addresses the heartless…

Oh look, Brian Edwards lays into Key for preaching at the poor not to envy rich folk like the trader-in-chief himself, as they pocket their tax cuts this week

*yawn* So the "$50 Million PM" should STFU, but anyone who suggests the "childless PM" should hold her tongue on anything…

For Labour, "fairness" = "creating equality of opportunity" (which means that the disadvantaged should be given more support; one way of achieving that is through…

That's not what I understand by "pay more tax" at all.

So man A, earning $500k and paying $6k tax "pays more tax" than man B, earning $20k and paying $5k tax?

Okay, technically you're right. It's not a lie; it's a trick, but it's a dishonest representation of the…

When we say "pay more tax" in this context it is understood that we mean "pay more tax as a percentage of income", not "pay more tax in dollar terms".

Understood by who? That's not what I understand by "pay more tax" at all.

Just once, I'd like to see him called on that bullshit; personally, I mean.

Oh look, Brian Edwards lays into Key for preaching at the poor not to envy rich folk like the trader-in-chief himself, as they pocket their tax cuts this week

"I'm not prepared to send people to a destination that I'm not prepared to come myself."

Next week Mr Key plans to spend a night behind bars at Paremoremo, at her Majesty's leisure.

Tune in the first week in June when Mr Key dines at Auckland's City Mission, before a…

He added that those on the top rate, ... consumed more and therefore paid more GST.

Sorry, but that sounds like a statement which refers to absolute amounts, not percentages to me...

There ya go Craig, that was *almost* in defence of honest John :-).

– Mind you, the reason…

People on an income of $100,000, even if they spend 70% of their income, pay more GST than people on an income of $40,000 who spend 100% of their income. Possibly a lesser percentage of their income, but that doesn't make the statement a lie.

Yes, it does. When we…

Resist the lies. GST is regressive, full stop – as Key and his media minders know full well.

Sorry, this argument annoys the hell out of me.

GST is a flat tax. It can be regressive in individual cases because people who earn more may spend a lesser proportion of…

He added that those on the top rate, expected to be cut from 38 per cent to 33 per cent, consumed more and therefore paid more GST.

Just once, I'd like to see him called on that bullshit; personally, I mean.

Least of all Garth.

It would mean mingling with the infidel..

There are far more significant derelictions of leadership going on, closer to home.

Such as spin like this:

He added that those on the top rate, expected to be cut from 38 per cent to 33 per cent, consumed more and therefore paid more GST.

Resist the lies. GST is…

All the more so, when you consider that the war has been going on for years, and has produced plenty of in-depth, insightful analysis by long-term (international) reporters, who might really have something worthwhile to tell us.

The only way you're going to do that from New Zealand is to…

There are far more significant derelictions of leadership going on,…

Come on, Craig. It was pretty asinine.

Well, yeah but no but come on... I can be as jaundiced as anyone — my personal bug-bear is the flying Prime Ministerial visit to the latest domestic disaster zone to state the bleeding obvious and heal the wounded and dispossessed with a…

Certainly I don't claim to have your razor sharp political sensibilities(or way with words), but I'm definitely not impressed by the man, no.

I don't think much of his cabinet either for that…

Can the SAS look forward to gruelling campaigns on the beaches of Hawaii, the bars of Ireland and in the board rooms of merchant banks?

No, but on the other hand, the SAS aren't rich, so aren't important to the economy.

Yes, it's a PR job, but I'm guessing that the soldiers appreciated the Prime Minister coming over to see what they were doing and thank them for their work.

Indeed — and if that makes him a preening chickenhawk, then it would be only fair to start running through Phil…

Can the SAS look forward to gruelling campaigns on the beaches of Hawaii, the bars of Ireland and in the board rooms of merchant banks?

if they want their PM to come see them every few years, bugger what the rest of us think.

.

Yes, and I'm sure that's exactly what Key was thinking when he made his asinine comment to camera... ;-)

I thought "jet in jet out" journalism had been mercilessly mocked off…

Key's declaration that "I'm not prepared to send people to a destination that I'm not prepared to come myself."

(I fear I'm going to turn into a defender of John Key).

The quote is fair, as long as 'destination' is the general area. It's not like he said "I'm not…

– Yes, I found this to be a typically self-serving, and disingenuous comment from our PM.
I mean, it's not like he's actually donning a uniform and going up against the…

"I'm not prepared to send people to a destination that I'm not prepared to come myself."

Which is an interesting pledge to make, especially since Key keeps saying his Government is tough on crime and will send more crims to jail.

I always knew he'd go bad.

Last year Campbell reported that the PRT was potentially to be scaled back:…

Yeah, Lynn Prentice who manages The Standard is involved. I was just holding out for someone to just front up and say so.

They create plenty of sticks with which to whack themselves, don't they?

It would be nice if they just operated openly and honestly sometimes.

Isn't it linked to "The Standard"? I'm sure someone had something to do with the websites all being run off the same servers, same contact details etc (can't remember exact details tho)

Yeah, Lynn Prentice who manages The Standard is involved. I was just holding out for someone to just…

_"I'm not prepared to send people to a destination that I'm not prepared to come myself."_

If he promises to give mining an actual go, I'd be tempted to let them carve the national parks up at will.

At the best Espiner and Garner offer an uncritical report of his performance, and at worst they operate almost like his PR hacks.

This is not…

Isn't it linked to "The Standard"? I'm sure someone had something to do with the websites all being run off the same servers, same contact details etc (can't remember exact details tho)

The People's Referendum on the Super City, and the slightly mysterious Our Auckland group behind it.

Slightly? Oh hell, I'm going to seriously pissed if any mayoral or council candidate (let alone political parties) are sock-puppeting 'Our Auckland'. I certainly hope Ewan Macdonald is going to get a richly deserved…

"I'm not prepared to send people to a destination that I'm not prepared to come myself."

I thought that was one of the more stupid things to dribble out of Mr Key.

Sending a suit wearing desk riding executive into that environment is quite different from sending a combat trained…