The way I see it is that if a council cannot make simple rulings like this then they are not much use other than to provide…

Then we agree. Unfortunately it seems to be the case that to get to this authority one has to go through a mile of red tape...

No Grant, I doubt we do. Because if we did you'd agree that the council was overstepping it's bounds attempting to stop Boobs on…

I agree that someone can decide who gets a permit. My concern is that the criteria be applied in an even-handed way. So that Boobs on Bikes and Destiny can be considered in the same way. And quite frankly those criteria should have nothing to do with content.
The questions…

No fucking way anyone is going to stand up in favour of that, so why the hell does changing 'wife' to 'child' make…

both sides of this particular argument would take some time out and think

I guess that's what I meant by "sense will prevail" We have parliament to do our dirty work for us and sometimes that work is to dirty for even them.
Did I feel a cold, damp, malodorous…

Even if the referendum gets the votes by the time it gets back to the house, if it ever does, sense will prevail. No one wants to be considered to be in favour of child abuse.

Certainly not, but I'm damn tempted to cast a 'yes' vote in the hope…

i like the mist.

Though I now wonder on re-reading if they're actually talking about people correcting parents by smacking them?

Touche Sacha. And a better proposal than what the petitioners think they're putting forward.

Dylan, you seem to love bureaucracy... not to mention Morgan. You also seem to have rejected the idea of proper authority completely. Let me clue you in. What you describe is not authority .. it's the ability people have to express opinion.

Unchecked authority is authoritarianism. That seems to be…

In the circumstances, I agree, again, with No Right Turn that the answer to objectionable speech is more speech, in the form of protest...

So you find the Electoral Finance Act repugnant then?

Grow up, dude.

As in, I will if you will.
Sphincter-brained little twirp.

Don't have much to add about boobs on bikes but I could do with a little less of the incessant drip, drip, drip I could do without ;-)

Today it seems I have to rely on the Almighty to point it out to me before it smashes into my face and kills me.

Grant Dexter

So. To save the "Almighty" from having to point it out I will repost (for Grunt's sake because he seems…

There is, unfortunately , nothing in Grunts book of rules, the Bibble, that says "thou shalt not rape" or "Thou shalt not beat your children"

.. you were ignoring the passages you have to argue against. Weren't you?

So, uh Steve, when you said there was nothing against rape and child abuse in the bible you were ignoring the examples I provided, right?

Sigh. Wrong again. Second post after yours on page 14.
There's none so blind as those who will not see.

I wrestled a pig.

Me too. Even after he was bacon he kept insisting he was the one doing the eating. It would have been hilarious if it wasn't so monotonous. Just a big plate of crispy bacon, I really wanted some scrambled eggs. But bacon was all he could…

I went outside today and the Graphics where indeed, crap.

You're starting to sound like one of those wussy Pauline Xtians – can't hit the sinful streets without feeling that you're about to lose your lunch.

There seems to me, to be an oxymoron in there.

You get that with questions that are more loaded than a Tommy gun.

And I might add, what an unenviable space to be.

Blogs: at worst, an electronic tar baby.

Indeed, it is Saturday. The whisky and the DVD are far more attractive alternatives to having a life.

Don't bother arguing, I could refute all of your silly arguements but, like most here, can't be bothered.

Not that you're being left out in the cold, Steve, but a word of advice (and this is not original):

Never wrestle with a pig – you assume undignified positions, you get…

I didn't know that the common law rights of way still existed in NZ and stand corrected.

Deuteronomy 22:25-27

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin…

Steve – try Deuteronomy 22:25-27 and Ephesians 6:1-4…

However I'm not sure about NZ, and maybe Graeme Edgeler (sp?) has an opinion. I know Rotorua council were trying to trespass people out of "their" city centre, which implies that the streets are private property of the council, and we only use them at their discretion.

At a quick…

If you don't quite understand Morgan's problem then read his post where he said authority needs to be constantly reviewed and checked. Now you are claiming that the population is the real authority. My point should be obvious...

I've known Morgan for more than ten years, and I still don't…

I love a good slanging match as much as the next guy, but being one of the bad guys here I consider myself more prone to being banned.

__Well I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the…

maintain(ing) the moral highground

B Jones, what you said. Derogatory name calling never won any arguments, not since I was a teenager. (And come to think of it, didn't work much then either.) Scrupulous civility can be really infuriating to someone looking for a slanging match .

I think I prefer the inventive re-spellings of my name....

http://www.fiftywomen.com/

http://www.fiftywomen.com/

... but then again, this is a liberal forum....

Queen Street is public property, any of us have every right to be there.

You'd think that was the case, and it's certainly the case in England, where there is a legal concept of a public right of way.

However I'm not sure about NZ, and maybe Graeme Edgeler (sp?)…

Morgan wants...
Morgan doesn't...
Morgan freely...
Morgan thinks...
Morgan thinks...
Morgan thinks...
Morgan thinks...
Morgan thinks...

Ooooh oh, do me next!!

If a group has the power to check and control laws made by a government made doesn't that make the group the higher authority?

What sort of dictatorship do you want to live…

In interstellar news...

Morgan wants to know how he is a hypocrite.

Morgan doesn't seem to want to respond to simple questions. Big surprise there. Morgan, one more time. If a group has the power to check and control…

to do so is to interfere with the right to freedom of movement on "the Queen's Highway".

And that's it isn't it. Any number of people can assemble wherever they way. If the number is small enough then the police might consider telling them to move or face charges of…

right to freedom of movement on "the Queen's Highway"

What sort of damage did those tracked tanks do to said Queens Highway? I would have thought those things would have a pretty serious maintenance impact...

And yes, I briefly paused to consider the interesting fact that a parade of topless…

Only with better tans and less body hair.

And more pina colada mix.

And a worse soundtrack.

If you do not think a porn producer organising porn stars to ride topless down the main street in Auckland is pornography then you're ... well .. you're just lost.

If what happened yesterday qualifies as porn, then they're really charging way too much for it. The little I saw…

Danielle: And more pina colada mix.

Link plz, thx. :)

Are you talking about my desire for a constitution? That would really be about protecting me (and you) from any potentially unjust legislation coming down the pike in the future.

Guaranteeing more firmly such trivial things as freedom of association, freedom of (and from) religion, due process, and so on.…

Only with better tans and less body hair.

And more pina colada mix.

Dylan: All that fuss over what was really only a few tits, and none that were especially fantastic (at least by my measure).

This really isn't the point.

Grant: You think authority needs to be constantly questioned and watched very carefully indeed. Wouldn't that make the people doing the watching…

www.coolnurse.com/sex_glossary/glossary_p.htm
Erotica:Sexually arousing imagery that is not considered pornographic, obscene, or offensive to the average person.

This suits me.

Craig – I'm glad we can agree to some extent. :)

From a definition standpoint, pornography is anything that is created to cause sexual excitement or arousal. Most…

Labelling is more dependent on the intended market than the actual content.

But even that gets problematic. As I said in the context of another discussion, why is Robert Mapplethorpe photo of one man pissing in another's mouth "art" on the walls of Wellington's City Gallery; but the exact same…

But isn't there a distinction between Pornography (implies violence etc) and Erotica.

Functionally? No. In discussion I'd rather use the term 'sexually explicit material', because 'porn' has overtones of violence which is missing from most porn, and erotica sounds like it's sweet and fluffy, which it certainly isn't. Labelling is…

I always presumed that erotica was the cuddly nice stuff that women like while pR0n was the filthy dirty stuff that us blokes like? :-)

Nearly there, Peter. "Erotica" makes enlightened people (like us) who go to arthouse movies, visit art galleries and read "literature" purchased from classy book stores…

But isn't there a distinction between Pornography (implies violence etc) and Erotica. The arguments seem to lump them all together. Lets have erotica if unharmful and fun.

I always presumed that erotica was the cuddly nice stuff that women like while pR0n was the filthy dirty stuff that us blokes…

guess the usual bumph about ravening she-bears and prescriptions against lying with thy neighbour's ox must feature large in there somewhere.

sounds like the typical johnny-come-lately ideology. they're always more lunatic than the original strain.

No, Grant's a Pauline Christian. They tend to regard Jesus as a bleeding heart liberal, and the Apostle Paul as the he-man author of the faith.

Surprising, seeing it has such a girly name.
I guess the usual bumph about ravening she-bears and prescriptions against lying with thy neighbour's ox…

Well, it might be time to start firing off some OIA requests about how much ratepayers shelled out to waste the court's time — because ratepayers really love that.

Sure, but that's kind of my point. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

No, Grant's a Pauline Christian. They tend to regard Jesus as a bleeding heart liberal, and the Apostle Paul as the he-man author of the faith.

Ah – I didn't get that reference when you wrote it earlier. I assumed that you meant something like this.

If they had come out with a statement along the lines of "..he's a dick, we're ignoring him" would they have been applauded for their common sense by ratepayers? I doubt it.

Well, it might be time to start firing off some OIA requests about how much ratepayers shelled out…

The more I examine my thoughts on this, the more I think I'm making aesthetic judgements. BoB = tacky and predictable commercial dodge by a known jerk. Hero Parade = grand community naughtiness after dark, with way better costumes.

This is pretty much my view. I hate the name, hate…

... Jesus, Michael Joseph Savage ...

I LOLd again.

No, Grant's a Pauline Christian. They tend to regard Jesus as a bleeding heart liberal, and the Apostle Paul as the real author of the faith.

Allah, Buddha, Jehovah, Jesus, Michael Joseph Savage and Xenu save us! (Sorry folks, just covering my bases in alphabetical order.) Reminds me of the…

it if it isn't approved in the old testament" fundamentalistically nutty worldview

No, Grant's a Pauline Christian. They tend to regard Jesus as a bleeding heart liberal, and the Apostle Paul as the he-man author of the faith.

Paul was always instructing women to be subservient to their husbands,…

A good question that depends on whether they're actual prosthetics, or cosmetically altered originals. Ether way, I prefer to exercise sensitivity. It's not like we point-out that transsexuals have fake parts, and are there for inviting snide remarks.

Oh, Steve, I hope you don't think I was being 'snide' --…

Edit function? Plz... Kthx.

If you agree that, even with such a trivial matter like deciding who can or cannot march down Queen St., the council is next to useless then what point even having a council?

Would you like to address my point?

Do you actually have one, Grant? I haven't seen anyone…

the council is next to useless then what point even having a council?

dexterbot, the council administers the city of auckland, which is it's actual job.

moral outrage and sanctimony are the responsibility of someone else.

although i'm sure you'd qualify

That the pornographers are prepared to reject proper authority is not surprising. I most likely would not. But then again I am not likely to promote something they would disapprove of...

Ummmm, I'm just guessing here, but I suspect that few pornographers share your "ban it if it isn't approved…

And while you might be confident that you wouldn't promote things 'they' would disapprove of, that's entirely depended on who…

Grant:
The point I entered this thread on is that a council should be able to rule on such trivial matters as they see fit. If they cannot then there seems little point in having a council. Do you have a comment on that?

You seemed to propose that the…

We both have opinions. We disagree. Shall we talk about something else now?

Michael, did you just call me a hit man? :rotfl:

The more I examine my thoughts on this, the more I think I'm making aesthetic judgements. BoB = tacky and predictable commercial dodge by a known jerk. Hero Parade = grand community naughtiness after dark, with way better costumes.

Hey, you're probably right — and I really should lighten up…

Secondly, I'm surprised…

Pregnancy porn only involves the consenting grown-ups, though. And I don't see any real difference between a woman posing nude pregnant or not, although you could say there's a particular sexuality to pregnancy.

I don't if it's a 'sexuality' per se, but there was a very good reason why that…

Craig, you're entitled to your opinion, I guess, as ludicrous as it is...

Oh, Grant... You're really not getting the whole
"discussion" thing, are you? You're right, everyone else is wrong and acting in bad faith. Not really any point in taking this any further.

Thanks for playing, I guess.

There is an audience for that sort of thing (pregnancy porn) who would probably be keen to get something unique, and the woman involved was keen.

Pregnancy porn only involves the consenting grown-ups, though. And I don't see any real difference between a woman posing nude pregnant or not, although…

When porn stars, employed by a porn maker, ride down a street topless I consider it pornographic. Unless you have some definition of what pornography is that excludes this example then my opinion is perfectly valid.

No, Craig. The city council is completely justified in attempting to block pornography. If you do not think a porn producer organising porn stars to ride topless down the main street in Auckland is pornography then you're ... well .. you're just lost.

Grant: I'm really trying to resist joining…

Or Hamilton.

[somwhat belatedly..] eh???

Mind you if…

You are going to jump on the it's legal bandwagon? I understand that it is not against the law to expose one's breasts in public. All I have suggested is that it must be an impotent and rather redundant city council that must have the backing of the law…

And when I published my distaste of this at the time on a web site, I had an abusive phone call. I…

"When I look back, the fondest memory I have is not really of the Goons. It is of a girl called Julia with enormous breasts."

And I wanna know how come Lucy turns lesbian and Russell gets her address...

Coffee is a universal currency.

And I wanna know how come Lucy turns lesbian and Russell gets her address...

Maybe he's pimpin a revival of Hero – now there was a real parade. Remember seeing a current member of parliament wearing green paint and not much more.

Must be time for a drink – that was way too academic for this time o day. Not having a bloody latte either. Bloody Mary, perhaps.

I acknowledge individual women's active role in this type of situation, and also the bigger picture where power is negotiated and the playing field is not level. No easy answers.

Sacha, I think I have some blogs you'd find interesting. I should probably save myself some time and work up…

It gives me the peverse desire to get call off my engagement and become a lesbian. Just because.

LOL!

Actually, you win coffee for that. Email me with your delivery address and I'll get our army of fulfillment staff onto it.

In some ways I actually think women have more power in sexual matters than men – sod all women would flock to the streets to watch Cocks on Cars (sorry best I can come…

I do not believe in positioning women as universal victims either, or men as slobbering fools unable to control ourselves. Though you'd have to wonder from some of the crowd shots last year.

I acknowledge individual women's active role in this type…

You guys are too fast . I can't catch up... Ok here's one.
GOLD for the yachting!!! :))

Timeline!

That was like 40 minutes ago. They bumped the one Close Up story I wanted to watch so they could do a crappy phone cross with the dude.

I've got that part down pat, the hard part for me is understanding that objects aren't women.

Mr Treehorn?

By the way, you need to clean your couch. Sorry.

Bro! How about you buy me a new couch!

I've viewed pornographic material on more than one occasion (and just recently looked at pictures of boobs on bikes and tits on tanks) and I not only have never committed any acts…

Most people in a normal society with normal interaction with actual women however understand that women in general are not objects.

I've got that part down pat, the hard part for me is understanding that objects aren't women.

By the way, you need to clean your couch. Sorry.

None of the women on the bikes were there because their husbands threatened them with a beating. If they weren't doing what they were, they could freely practice law, or medicine, or web development.

They are…

Emma, I'm very interested in hearing your take on today's parade – if you can just ignore the temptation to respond to the way it is being framed by others including our revolting troll.

I guess I'm not done here, then.

I'm pissed (and the reason I've been staying out…

I think your local dairy is pretty crappy, or you're not look up the top of the magazine shelf.

South of the Bombays we are dreadfully morally superior.

But breast, on their own attached to the chest of a woman on the back of a motorcycle are not pornographic, regardless…

Shit, that is enlightening Sacha. And kinda freaky.

What's even freakier is that she spent the time to read Grunt's dross and find that shit in the first place!
She's a braver (or far, far nuttier) woman that I gave her credit for :P

And, Morgan, if a city council cannot decide which parades it will allow and which it will not, but must appeal to the law then what possible use does a council have? What issue, if this one must be referred, need not be referred?

Any parade that includes illegal activity…

Our society regards racism as morally wrong and I think a pro-white skinhead march would be banned. Isn't the same principal involved?

As Russell said, the National Front and various other bands of bigots have been allowed to march in the past. Yes, it is the same principle: the right…

Shit, that is enlightening Sacha. And kinda freaky.

It gives me the peverse desire to get call off my engagement and become a lesbian. Just because.

What about the vast vast majority of 'porn users' who have never and will never commit sexual violence? And I'm certain there'll be a…

I understand your predicament as moderator Russell — but I'm beginning to look away — I mean far away — when GD jumps on a thread. And he seems to be spreading . . .

In a discussion about freedom of speech, Newsprint argues against it?

I thought we were…

I haven't seen it and I know it's pornography.

Well I think I'm done here.

Grow up, please.

You mean like this sophisticated offering from yr own blogette, Grunt:

We need players for the World Cup in 2027. So it is my suggestion that as many people as possible get married and have babies as soon as possible. This obviously necessitates a man marrying a woman…

Crow is a sleezy dick, but that's his problem.…

I understand your predicament as moderator Russell — but I'm beginning to look away — I mean far away — when GD jumps on a thread. And he seems to be spreading...

Way to empty the party room by room all right.

Grow up, please.

....naaaaaah.

It's not the boobs, it's what they're doing with them.

Indeed. And if there were breast licking, and overt sexual acts then the law would be pretty clear. But breast, on their own attached to the chest of…

Our society regards racism as morally wrong and I think a pro-white skinhead march would be banned. Isn't the same principal involved?

Actually, they did, in Wellington and Christchurch.

And they got pwned by the counter-protesters.

Indeed – I feel very little call to "protect" my children from the things their eyes first focussed upon

But this is not a group of ordinary women going around topless. It's not a group of breast feeding mothers marching for their rights. Don't the bare boobs belong to women…

Grow up, please.

Bless.

Sometimes, Lucy, the law is wrong. And sometimes it takes people with courage to stand up for what is right. There are many ways to stop this parade. A few of…

No, Craig. The city council is completely justified in attempting to block pornography. If you do not think a porn producer organising porn stars to ride topless down the main street in Auckland is pornography then you're ... well .. you're just lost.

You know it when you see it,…

yup. "protecting children"... from boobs. might have to get some new amendments to the legislation regarding safety equipment for breastfeeding babies.

Indeed – I feel very little call to "protect" my children from the things their eyes first focussed upon

http:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK-Atcio4-4

And, Morgan, if a city council cannot…

Well, hey, you're always going to get the odd creepy misogynist along with the rubberneckers, aren't you? Could well be a morals campaigner…

If we're going there, Cathy Casey is going into exile south of the Bombays until she de-frumps and does something a little more flattering with her hair.

But then Whaleoil would feed Bridget Saunders a rumour that a left-wing councillor was living it up having her hair done at Serville's.…

This has nothing to do with freedom of speech! It has everything to do with proper authority. A geverning body should be allowed to say "Yay" or "Nay" regardless of the request. Why would we need a law to back up every decision they make?

You're right, it is about…

Why would the council say no to a perfectly reasonable request. And why are they obliged to say yes to pornography?

Grant: In this case, I think the Auckland City Council is obliged not to waste public money and the court's time on a trivial action I can't see any…

Makes them sound like a Yakuza version of the Huxtables though.

But good lord, wouldn't RZA's soundtrack for THAT movie be magnificent...

No matter what the government type it is possible for them…

I'm guessing you haven't been to one recently. I went last year, for the first time since childhood and it was full of enormous motorised billboards with a few elves riding on top.

I haven't seen the Auckland parade since I was wee, but other parades aren't so bad. The…

If they refused me for no good reason then I probably would be unhappy. So what? Should our governments make decisions based on how happy people are..?

This has nothing to do with freedom of speech! It has everything to do with proper authority. A geverning body should be allowed to say "Yay" or "Nay" regardless of the request. Why would we need a law to back up every decision they make?

Grant: I think you've missed…

You're saying you'd be perfectly happy with…

The women are not just baring their breasts but titillating the crowd with their overall…

It's quite interesting to see the five or six outraged replies that reliably follow every post from Dexter. In the antiseptic white behavioural lab of PAS, he's the happy rodent that's found the feeding bar.

To add another metaphor, I see him almost as part of the…