Labour wants National to publish the bills it says it will introduce to Parliament before Christmas if it wins the election.

National's leader, John Key, yesterday set out a challenging legislative timetable for a National-led government.

His "first 100…

I read that as "their Les Mills moment" and was briefly very confused.

Les Mills and Les Miserables have been confusing me for years. More vile expenditures of time, money and human effort exist, I'm sure, but I don't want to leave my happy place.

The latter.

I suspect you're right Craig.

But still, I am glad to see these stories seeing the light of day. It is reassuring that Winston/Glenn & Winston/Vela & Dunne/Vela might be the worst of the political corruption in NZ. You don't have to look long at American politics to see a…

wiped up by a chunk of blue ice that fell out of an airplane toilet.

Eww... my Freudian slip is showing. Wiped out!

"Moront" – love it. :)

If you're going to be a bum-bag influence peddler, at least be a competent bum-bag influence peddler and get what your client…

while the Springbok Tour was their Les Mis moment

I read that as "their Les Mills moment" and was briefly very confused.

Do you think Dunne accepting money from the Velas might tarnish his party's attractiveness on that front, or is it an over-rated story?

The latter. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Vela Family were buying Dunne's vote (with or without Moront acting as consigliere) didn't Dunne end…

Alternately, the impression of being shafted by the money mans slight of hand, might count in united future's favor.

Do you think Dunne accepting money from the Velas might tarnish his party's attractiveness on that front, or is it an over-rated story?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbEwKcs-7Hc

You're just asking to be told in great detail [...] exactly what I do wank off over

Really, no need, you've already told us on another thread:

Yup, a complete sentence expressing a grown-up idea gives me a woody every damn time

Hmm and left that poor odd couple Fay and Richwhite to fend for themselves?

More a matter of mucking up our smaller, more fragile banking system at the time. Don't get me wrong, RichFay were total arseholes who deserved jail rather than knighthoods. Though media cheerleaders at the time would…

The campaigning sure seems to have reduced any gap on that front between Nats and Labr, despite any…

To be fair, Steve, there might have been a lot more indignation if the Nats had just let BNZ collapse.

Hmm and left that poor odd couple Fay and Richwhite to fend for themselves?
The ignomony, the inhumanity. Those poor wretched souls left out in the cold hard winds of…

However, that's no excuse for cold-heartedly ignoring the advice of officials and slashing benefit levels in the name of ideology. Or of not restoring them in the last nine years.…

there's one or two people around who don't really care. Or don't have the expected Pavolvian reflux at the very mention of the name of the Demoness Ruth Richardson.

Yes, all that meringue comin' back atcha along side the acid bile from the Kiwi fruit.
Ruth bloody Richardson. I still…

Genuine undecideds are more likely to have been put off by the unseemly scrabbling for dirt. Own goal.

It's not only that, but I suspect even how if you say 'H-Fee' to most people, they're going to reply "I'm not really into hip-hop". You're trying to launch a dirty nuke…

Labour had been hyping up Brethren-gate Redux for months, and it didn't deliver. Entirely self-inflicted credibility damage at the worse possible moment.

Yes. I had somehow formed the impression that the bomb would be Bill English being outed as a Hollow Men malcontent, or similar.

I suppose a smaller-caliber pistol would have to fire baby teeth.

I'd find some video if only embedding were working for me..

What has changed, is that the picture of Key, The multi millionaire currency trader, that associates with white collar crimes, has been getting a good re-rendered, for free.

Well, we shall see. But as I said right from the beginning, Labour already has those who banker rhymes with wanker, and…

Too busy focusing on rugby tours, perhaps.. :)

And how many Boomer hack and commentators have been rather shocked that while the Springbok Tour was their Les Mis moment, there's one or two people around who don't really care. Or don't have the expected Pavolvian reflux at the very mention…

I've forgotten women I dated 20 years ago.

Too busy focusing on rugby tours, perhaps.. :)

No, that was 27 years ago, when I was out most Saturdays, marching against the Tour, alongside women so staunch I wouldn't dare have asked __"Is that a breastplate under your jumper, or are you…

I found Catherine Whassername very combative and wondering if she'd give the same treatment to Clarke.

Know what it sounded like. However, first journo I've heard ask follow up questions properly and not just accept the vanilla evasiveness. I actually reckon Helen would get the same treatment if she behaved…

I've forgotten women I dated 20 years ago.

Too busy focusing on rugby tours, perhaps.. :)

I thinks that Labor broke even on that gamble. They've raised the old " taxpayers money",My money chanting, from the marauding mobs. But, Nice Mr Key, might be the big bad wolf? It's more insidious.

Which was different from last week exactly how? I wouldn't confidently predict that we're going…

North Shore Boys, North Shore Boys, thousand dollar suits and million dollar toys

Living each day outside the law :-)

some coded reference to Sham 69

North Shore Boys, North Shore Boys, thousand dollar suits and million dollar toys!

I'd love to know exactly who has been shopping this story around.

I don't know if Vernon Small in the __DomPost today is going to leave you any the wiser...

Labour strategist Pete Hodgson said "Mr Anonymous" first contacted the party last year, but never alleged any wrongdoing…

Hands up who knows what a "sham foreign exchange transaction" is. ....

If I did I'd be a very rich tax lawyer now, instead of... whatever the hell I am.

I thought it was some coded reference to Sham 69, considering the title of the post

Where in any of Labour's manifesto in 1984 were the details of their biggest moves – the massive sale of state assets?

Unmandated changes by an incoming government in a climate of crisis. Sounds worryingly familiar.

Damn, I just lost.

That you did: you got 404'd.

The Game is Mornington Crescent for /b/tards.

I'll take umbrage when I stop laughing.

HEH!

But on the other, he claims he was oblivious to his colleagues dodgy dealings even though Elders was a small firm and they were all mates.

Um... was it that small? I worked for them in the late 80s/early 90s & we had 4 floors of Elder's House (now something else…

Politics is a LARP, at least for a considerable number of people, playing "the Game".

Damn, I just lost.

Too much time insulated from the real world for some of these people, especially those who became activists at university and have been plugged into the machine ever since.

I'll take umbrage when I stop laughing.

Isn't there a political LARP game these people could play, while adults get on with, y'know, running a country?

Politics is a LARP, at least for a considerable number of people, playing "the Game". Too much time insulated from the real world for some of these people, especially those who…

How would you know?

=)

Indeed. To paraphrase a great philosopher of our time, it's one of the best cloak-and-dagger disguises there is – nobody would ever suspect Mike Williams of trying to appear inconspicuous and discreet.

How would you know?

=)

Batman told me.

It’s the fact that he always gets caught.

How would you know?

=)

How do I know, well I am dealing with one now, he owes me a million and a half, will he pay, who knows
If he doesn't can I win, hopefully

Doubt if Miis Clark has ver even done a small deal like this, well with such a big down…

Last I heard, said book was starting to end up in the bargain bins. No one seemed to take it very seriously to start with. I myself thought it was unintentionally funny.

At a family birthday party in May, a guest (who is rumoured to be a campaign manager for…

This is what Labour should be doing.

After the brief, polite meeting Ms Fitzsimons told reporters she had come to the mall because she was not going to be sharing any stage with Mr Key in any forum or debate during the campaign, and questions needed to be asked.

Magnificent.…

Exposing John Key on policy. Crazy idea, I know, but it just might work.

That was followed by an anonymous text and several drops of further documents from someone calling himself Batman.

Labour's secret weapon: they've captured and 'turned' dad4justice.

From Craig in another thread: I'm wondering if this is going to backlash on Labour and any media outlet that touches it.

Don't suppose you have the Lotto numbers for this coming Saturday as well? =>

Although it hasn't backlashed on the Herald yet due to their extraordinary about turn…

That was followed by an anonymous text and several drops of further documents from someone calling himself Batman.

Isn't there a political LARP game these people could play, while adults get on with, y'know, running a country?

The saga began when a pile of court and other documents were dropped in a Dominion Post reporter's letterbox wrapped in a copy of the Otago Daily Times. That was followed by an anonymous text and several drops of further documents from someone calling himself Batman.…

National's sudden discovery of Old Left policies is the most extraordinary feature of this campaign. The Dim-Post skewered them (and their cheerleaders) very well recently:

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2008/10/19/business-leaders-hail-keys-new-economic-policy/

"Steve Pierson" has confirmed today that The Standard got emailed information on H-Fee as a series of blog posts, of which they ran one (noting Key's confusion over dates in different interviews) — but left the others unpublished…

I'm wondering if I should rush out now and buy some houses.

You need 4 to get a hotel.

It's frustrating that there is so much focus on this when there is so much other stuff, like y'know policy, that could be on the front page this morning

Brian Fallow has nearly half a page on B2 of today's Herald commenting on National's as yet scantily described 'unemployment benefit/lets…

I think we can forgive Mr Key his lapses of…

It’s not so much that Mike Williams always seems to get involved in stuff like this.

It’s the fact that he always gets caught.

You think they'd pick someone who actually has demonstrated some ability at doing the job well.

Hands up who knows what a "sham foreign exchange transaction" is.

Basically, it was part of a scheme by those who controlled several companies to steal money from the shareholders of one company and put it into another.

It’s the fact that he always gets caught.

All this at a time where the biggest thing we’re looking for from our political parties is competence.

Hands up who knows what a "sham foreign exchange transaction" is.

If I did I'd be a very rich tax lawyer now, instead of... whatever the hell I am.

It is a little ironic that some of the people most up in arms over Ian Wishart's despicable book about Helen Clark's supposed secret life are this morning quite happy about the "smearing" of John Key.

Last I heard, said book was starting to end up in the bargain…

Or to put it another way:

I thought Russell's write up was very fair. However, isn't there a difference between oversight of our politicians' public records and delving into private lives in a most tawdry and despicable manner?

That's where Wishart goes well off the plot and where these sort…

Carry on.

A: "This beer is warm."
B: "Fucking 4th Labour Government!"

Oh come on, that's a stretch. The current Labour Government is much more responsible for warm beer, stubbed toes, bad hair days, and the bad weather we've been having lately.

Hands up who knows what a "sham foreign exchange transaction" is

heh. trick question.

it's a tautology, innit?

Hands up who knows what a "sham foreign exchange transaction" is.

Mu understanding was that they paid this guy under the table and made it look like the money had gone into foreign exchange transactions which had never occurred?

In fact if I were designing government there would be only documentation and no elected representatives at all, just propositions that would be voted on directly, with civil servants getting hired or fired on their implementation.

maybe we will all get ponies after all.

No punking needed here, as Labour have been desperate to get the campaign away from talking about actual policies and visions, into a personality contest between the rock of ages and the flimsy newcomer. A negative campaign works well for an opposition party, for a…

he explicitly stated that the statistical low ebb for "promise-keeping" was the 4th labour government...

Some of my friends and I blame everything on the 4th Labour government. Eg.

A: "This beer is warm."
B: "Fucking 4th Labour Government!"

It helps pass the cold Dunedin nights.

Doubt if Miis Clark has ver even done a small deal like this, well with such a big down side for her!

One suspects that being Prime Minister for 9 years, is fairly good CV filler for... being Prime Minister for another 3 years.

I don't think National has a secret, un-published, agenda. Not as a party. But I do think that there are National MPs, and lobby groups such as the BRT, who will be more than ready to leap into the policy vacuum should they have sufficient power after Nov 8th.

Good…

So they not technically liars in the sense Che seems to interpret the word. They're just half-truthers to a massive degree which IMHO is much the same.

well... the *last* thing you want is a government who dogmatically follows something written during the course of a heated election campaign. the…

i just wanted to disagree that policy manifestos were unnecessary.

That's cool Che, I agree. In fact if I were designing government there would be only documentation and no elected representatives at all, just propositions that would be voted on directly, with civil servants getting hired or fired on their…

So Ben, if I may be so bold, how do you decide who to vote for if you have no expectations about policy whatsoever?

Oh I have expectations all right, they just don't form a 1:1 relationship with party policy documents. This is MMP after all, no party will rule…

I'm sure the academic you refer to had a different idea of what a promise means.

not at all. he explicitly stated that the statistical low ebb for "promise-keeping" was the 4th labour government...

i just wanted to disagree that policy manifestos were unnecessary. they are provided, and they are…

if you have an example of election policy not being implemented, i'd love to hear them.

Does Jim Bolger's "I'm sorry" ring any bells? Or are you looking for more recent history?

And you can't write off 'implementation details'. Where in any of Labour's manifesto in 1984 were the details…

I don't think National has a secret, un-published, agenda. Not as a party. But I do think that there are National MPs, and lobby groups such…

People do realise that the opposition has a Research Unit as well, that performs essentially the same function, right?

If that "function" includes "dustbusting" Helen Clark, as part of the National Party's election campaign, I'll say that's out of order too. Can't say fairer than that, can I?

untrue. a nzl academic recently published(? was heard on na.trad) something demonstrating that up to 90% of "promises" made by "politicans" are kept.

the remaining promises were things like "everyone gets a pony".

How different things would be if 10 year old girls could vote.

The bulk of the running has been John Key and the Herald.

And Mike Williams went to Melbourne to catch a matinee of Wicked and do some shopping?

All that Helen has said is that there is every right for questions to be asked of our leaders.

And I'd call…

No, the but the Labour Party Research unit is isn't it ? According the Holmes this morning they were sent to Oz to search thru the 13,000 documents with Williams

Reason # Infinity and Beyond Why My Political Career Will Never Happen. I could take my razor of fiscal righteousness…

No, but Mike Williams isn't under our employ either.

No, the but the Labour Party Research unit is isn't it ? According the Holmes this morning they were sent to Oz to search thru the 13,000 documents with Williams

One observation: it is a little ironic that some of the people most up in arms this morning about the "smearing" of John Key are the same people who spent weeks masturbating over Ian Wishart's despicable book about Helen Clark's supposed secret life.

*cough* You're just asking to be told…

True, but was any taxpayer $$ spent by Wishart producing his tome ?

No, but Mike Williams isn't under our employ either.

I wasn't seeking to directly compare the two — whatever National's sins, it had nothing to do with Wishart's book — so much as note the selective outrage…

if you have an example of election policy not being implemented, i'd love to hear them.

One observation: it is a little ironic that some of the people most up in arms this morning about the "smearing" of John Key are the same people who spent weeks masturbating over Ian Wishart's despicable book about Helen Clark's supposed secret life.

True, but was any taxpayer $$ spent…

i agree that the policies are often adapted to sit circumstances, or watered down. but they're still followed.

It's the ones that aren't even mentioned which form the other 99% of what government does that I'm thinking of, Che. I think of such instances as "I'll add heaps of cops"…

i think i was just a little sick in my mouth.

They're also bloody vague, and seldom followed. I know they're how it should work, but they just never are.

untrue. a nzl academic recently published(? was heard on na.trad) something demonstrating that up to 90% of "promises" made by "politicans" are kept.

the remaining promises were things like "everyone gets…

policies are a manifesto of what you can expect from that government. without it you might as well just vote for the candidate you think is best at working on the fly.

They're also bloody vague, and seldom followed. I know they're how it should work, but they just never…

I have this recurring nightmare in which I'm the only person who ends up votig, but I made some weird tactical decision with the list vote and NZ First ends up getting 100%.

If you gave your electorate vote to someone else NZ First would end up with a mere…

No way that would happen, Clark has already said she sees no need for them to be entrenched

If National/Maori do a deal and this legislation is pending from a National government the wishes of ex-PM, ex-Labour leader Helen Clark will be of little or no importance. We would be…

It's annoying but not particularly alarming that National publishes so little policy.

Why bother? As often as not, it doesn't get covered in any depth and Labour is doing quite well releasing what they would do if only the global economy wasn't going down the crapper. Which is rather endearing,…

They would have to reach consensus on issues, as good governance should do, so there would only be be well considered, evidence-based policy.

Heh, or no policy more like. But I agree, except about the consensus part. That's too high a standard for any group of more than a few…

Which is how it has to be – what would be the point of human representatives if we were actually voting on policy documents.

jesus... i'm genuinely shocked at that.

policies are a manifesto of what you can expect from that government. without it you might as well just vote…

I have this recurring nightmare in which I'm the only person who ends up votig

well... voting is voluntary. even if zero citizens voted you can guarantee the candidates and their families will.

you could end up with an nzl government, as you indicate

Labour might still support such a vote

No way that would happen, Clark has already said she sees no need for them to be entrenched

the odds of *zero* people voting are longer than lotto.

I have this recurring nightmare in which I'm the only person who ends up votig, but I made some weird tactical decision with the list vote and NZ First ends up getting 100%.

Shouldn't it be "H-bomb", anyhow?

I think the N-bomb is favored in politics because it only kills people but leaves buildings standing. Of course 'hand grenade' might be closer to the actual levels of devastation caused by any political scandal, but politicians think of themselves as Titans.

It particularly concerns me when there is so little attention being paid to the policies of National's first-cab-off-the-rank for coalition talks, Act.

Sample of one. I tend to do the "head in the sand" thing with Act's policies because I just cannot conceive of them ever being implemented. The memories…

Labour will try to make this out to be a Herald beat-up-and-then-down. We'll see if that's true.

In a weird way, I feel rather sorry for Eugene Bingham. Garth George's latest methane emission is another plaint about how "boring" the campaign is — because the whole point of a parliamentary…

Raymond:

Of course a university campus is the real world, or no more surreal than anywhere else.

OMG, Craig said something that I completely agree with and have actually said regularly myself!

I've been quite startled, reading National's policies, at how brief they are,

I suspect that if/when National get…

Or some one who has gone toe for toe with the real bad guys

Okay, I'll fall for it. Who are the real bad guys?

The Klingons. Don't tell me you can't you see a hint of Captain James T. Kirk's roguish charm and cavalier attitude to Federation Law in…

Oh hang on, that's our cricket team.

Ah yes, the ol' difference between bad = evil versus bad = just really crap. I can see how you might be confused Ben ;-)

Okay, I'll fall for it. Who are the real bad guys?

The black hats are a giveaway. Oh hang on, that's our cricket team.

I suppose if no-one votes the result would be a little hard to fathom.

the odds of *zero* people voting are longer than lotto.

however, very low turn-outs do happen.

witness dubya.

Or some one who has gone toe for toe with the real bad guys

Okay, I'll fall for it. Who are the real bad guys?

Labour will try to make this out…

But I all too often look at our Parliamentarians and wonder if there's something in the notion that people who seek out political power are the very ones who should never be allowed to have it.

Reminds me of a story by a journalist from the NSW press gallery who…

Of course a university campus is the real world, or no more surreal than anywhere else.

Some one who has never worked in the real world and no university is not the real world or anthing like one

Or some one who has gone toe for toe with the real bad…

Off thread but still election-related: this there a minimum voter turn out required for a general election to be binding?

Why ? Is that Labour's latest strategy for clinging to power, lock everyone in their houses on the 8th ?

But I feel distinctly uneasy that someone who worked in the industry in which this sort of financial behaviour was normal could be in charge of NZ's economy. Worse, the values underderlying the dog eat dog competitiveness of…

It couldn't possibly work. Minimum turn-out for a referendum could work, but an election?

I suppose if no-one votes the result would be a little hard to fathom. But as we don't currently have a Parliament, or any MPs it's not like the current lot could just…

I'm timing how long it takes for Craig to reply to this post... 10 mins so far ;-)

Sorry for being tardy, Glenn. But here's something to get your blood pressure up — isn't this the usual m.o. of Ian Wishart? (And I apologise in advance to Bingham for having…

If this the so called "neutron bomb" I would like to know what Miss Clark was doing in the closing days of the last labour government

Did Labour, in return, get punked?

No, I don't think Labour was on the receiving end of Mr. Demi Moore's odd idea of a good-natured practical joke at all. Why do I have the funny feeling Trevor Mallard and/or Pete Hodgson have been shopping this story around the Press Gallery…

I guess it's found in favour of the latter. Again.