Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Potency and purity

Russell Brown

Tue, 07 Jul 2015 11:56:03 +1200

Tatjna re-reads the NZ Expert Advisory Committee on Drugs' advice to the Minister of Health on MDMA.

The way I read this, it says
– we don't know the public health impact but it's likely to be low
– it's unlikely to cause death
– the jury's still out on…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 01 Jul 2015 18:01:26 +1200

In the US, the story is even starker. Drug laws there were essentially born out of racism – against immigrant Chinese, blacks and Mexicans – and their impact still falls sharply along racial lines.

Indeed, the War on Drugs has become a “new Jim Crow” of sorts. Especially when the…

Brandon Hutchison

Wed, 01 Jul 2015 15:53:45 +1200

James, studies on ranking drug harms allow for prevalence. Harmfulness is not just one value but a consideration of a range of factors eg risk of mortality, short-term long term damage to person, risk of dependence, risk to society (criminogenicity, road smashes..). With illicit drugs , many of these factors…

david westcot

Wed, 01 Jul 2015 14:40:45 +1200

Tail-ender reporting here . I had a poke around online re this incident & the smokin gun could well be the humidity level on the night – as one of the 100 or so DEA agents observed, it was so muggy condensation was running down the walls – even in a…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 01 Jul 2015 14:05:42 +1200

consciously targeted at immigrant Chinese workers, whose opium use had become a matter of public alarm.

And that, Sir, is the key, FEAR.
The fear of the majority of society, the fear of foreigners, the fear of youth and their immature and ignorant ways.
If society had unbiased and informed…

Rich Lock

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 21:23:24 +1200

Yay! Legal drugs, let's see how many we can take, wash them down with Red Bull and Vodka shots. That chick looks like she could do with one dropped in her drink etc. etc.

There's always going to be munters like this. [[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/east-17-singer-sacked-for-making-ecstasy-remarks-1283668.html|Back in 1997, the singer of crap boyband…

BenWilson

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:21:20 +1200

Yes, it's probably less along racial lines than along the age gap when it comes to drugs that are primarily used by kids in night-clubs. By kids I mean people up to the age of about 30, by which time the Friday night itchy dancing feet have probably worn off…

B Jones

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 17:35:14 +1200

I'm not that surprised, unfortunately. That's a facet that stands out a lot more when it comes to other drugs, including alcohol (with some vivid Australasian examples), but less so with respect to MDMA and its cousins.

Russell Brown

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 16:47:18 +1200

Thanks for that clarification. I think your point risks getting lost if you’re trying to compare forced relocation of children and other racist policies to prohibition. There’s a real difference between policies designed to change people’s behaviour and policies designed to wipe out a cultural identity or preserve a social…

Josh Petyt

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 14:44:26 +1200

When I was in London 1997~2000 people who took a lot of pills seemed to take more and more. It was’t uncommon for some folk to take 3 (over more) in a night. Of course no one really knew the potency but they obviously felt that they needed more than…

B Jones

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 14:44:11 +1200

Thanks for that clarification. I think your point risks getting lost if you're trying to compare forced relocation of children and other racist policies to prohibition. There's a real difference between policies designed to change people's behaviour and policies designed to wipe out a cultural identity or preserve a social…

Daniel Carr

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 13:52:10 +1200

B, It’s a long story, and it’s a historical story. (See below for a book and video dealing with the history)

I think you’re right, most of the people involved mean well. I also think many see the situation as hopeless and go along with the status quo because to…

B Jones

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 12:12:24 +1200

Could you expand on that, Daniel, as I'm not sure I follow. There's an aspect of puritanism to any drug debate, but I'd be very surprised if the majority of people who have contributed to this issue were motivated by anything other than trying to reduce the amount of preventable…

Daniel Carr

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 11:45:31 +1200

Sure, testing drugs is a good move. There are many things we can do to make the current situation less bad.

However, I think that it’s got to the point where we need to accept that prohibition is not just a bad idea, but morally wrong in a fundamental way.…

Daniel Carr

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 11:30:22 +1200

The reasons Quigley might favour such a course are outlined in my what’s-in-the-pills story for the New Zealand Drug Foundation’s Matters of Substance magazine, which sparked the current media interest in the topic.

The other problem with all of these studies is that it's not really a question of MDMA's…

Russell Brown

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:55:19 +1200

This just in:

The global reach of the legal highs industry has been laid bare by a UN study that shows new psychoactive substances – as they are officially called – being reported for the first time in countries as far afield as Peru and the Seychelles.

The annual report…

Russell Brown

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:51:06 +1200

They’ve predicted a massive mental health epidemic of depression from the abuse of MDMA for twenty years. However, this seems inconsistent with the lack of observational evidence to support it – AKA The Fermi paradox.

True. There may be long-term (and even irreversible) effects, but they don't seem to be…

Roger Lacey

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 10:39:53 +1200

I fear the munter-factor would spoil it for everyone.
Yay! Legal drugs, let's see how many we can take, wash them down with Red Bull and Vodka shots. That chick looks like she could do with one dropped in her drink etc. etc.
It's a pity because there is real…

Tom Semmens

Tue, 30 Jun 2015 09:56:19 +1200

They've predicted a massive mental health epidemic of depression from the abuse of MDMA for twenty years. However, this seems inconsistent with the lack of observational evidence to support it – AKA The Fermi paradox.

Russell Brown

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 22:50:46 +1200

What would work, and how would you define “work” anyway? Fewer psychoactive ED admissions? Fewer alcohol ED admissions if people switch? No increase in hyponatremia, hyperthermia, depression etc? It might not work very well if all you did was switch people from alcohol to alcohol plus MDMA. Would that be…

Rich Lock

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 22:37:46 +1200

Would you care to outline a third option? Given that prohibition has so very, very clearly utterly failed.

Rich Lock

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 22:35:48 +1200

For sure. And if you consumed pure alcohol you'd be lucky if you survived a single glass.

"The year before, an Intourist guide had taken a group of Americans into the taiga and laid out an even more splendid lunch but had forgotten to turn the bottle. After many toasts…

James Littlewood*

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:53:45 +1200

alcohol is by far the most harmful drug in our society.

Only because it's legal and therefore the most prevalent. And, in moderation, for most people, it's totally harmless.

Opening up the legal market for other drugs will also attract industry lobbyists for those drugs. For instance, a former pot…

B Jones

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 21:17:58 +1200

It'd be great if you could legislate for the sensible majority, who don't drink to excess, who don't abuse a legal mind-altering alternative, who drive sensibly, who follow the instructions on the bottle, etc etc. But it's also useful to have some crash barriers in place for the small but…

Luke Williamson

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:46:40 +1200

To de-criminalize any of the drugs in question, you have to put forward a reasoned scientific case for harm minimization. In order to do that, you have to acknowledge the harm done by drugs in general and, therefore, acknowledge that alcohol is by far the most harmful drug in our…

BenWilson

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:46:18 +1200

If you drink two bottles of spirits (which contain about three times as much alcohol as the wine) you might well wind up dead of alcohol poisoning.

For sure. And if you consumed pure alcohol you'd be lucky if you survived a single glass.

Russell Brown

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:43:08 +1200

The UK Advisory Council report the story refers to is here.

This is relevant (emphasis mine):

An extensive systematic assessment of observational data on the recreational use of MDMA by Rogers et al. (2009) examined studies that compared MDMA users versus poly-drug users and MDMA users versus drug-naïve controls with…

Russell Brown

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:37:05 +1200

The study that is raising most concern over long-term MDMA effects is this one from last year: Depression, impulsiveness, sleep, and memory in past and present polydrug users of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ecstasy)

I read the full report and it did seem to me to have some problems with self-selection, ie:…

Paul Paul

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:34:21 +1200

Behind a paywall, but the summary of this comprehensive 2009 UK [meta?] study is intriguing.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126954.500-ecstasys-longterm-effects-revealed.html?full=true

Sofie Bribiesca

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:26:10 +1200

But it's not hard to see why emergency doctors like Quigley would see it as a better option than most other things that could turn up in a pill:

Quigley was saying on Back Benches recently that, for every 100 alcohol related incidences in ER on a weekend night that…

Russell Brown

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 14:31:22 +1200

Not just Mr Schep

The long-term effects of MDMA use also merit attention. I've been looking at some literature on that. But that's a whole other post ...

Brent Jackson

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 14:23:32 +1200

That opinion piece reads equally well if you replace Ecstasy with RTDs and MDMA with alcohol.

Ross Bell

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 14:06:54 +1200

Not just Mr Schep – http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/69781690/ecstasy-is-a-dangerous-drug-and-should-remain-illegal

Public Address

Mon, 29 Jun 2015 14:06:54 +1200

Discussion from blog post.