Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: On benefit fraud

Neil

Fri, 04 Aug 2017 09:20:16 +1200

It was Little's skepticism of the political wisdom of Turei's actions that contributed to his downfall. Ironic that he may be proved right.

Neil

Wed, 26 Jul 2017 23:52:14 +1200

It’s very tough on a benefit and I have a great deal of sympathy and respect for those who don’t have much education, have chaotic lives and don’t have the out of a legal professional future but still maintain honest relations with people.

nzlemming

Wed, 26 Jul 2017 22:21:09 +1200

FTA
Prime Minister Bill English said he disagreed with politicians "essentially advocating breaking the law".

I don't think admitting you've done something is advocating for others to do it. Recognising that people are forced into such situations is not endorsement. And, if this is honestly Bill's view, why is he…

nzlemming

Wed, 26 Jul 2017 22:08:23 +1200

Perhaps it was just the clickbait headline, but the comments below this Stuff article seem like a coordinated up-voting campaign in action. Troops mobilised for the election campaign – on one side at least.

There are no comments on the post now.

simon g

Wed, 26 Jul 2017 13:28:51 +1200

"It's now been revealed ... " says Stuff.

Shame on Turei, keeping her election candidacy secret. From everyone except ... well, everyone.

Investigative journalism at its finest. Next Stuff scoop: Andrew Little confesses to union activism. Why weren't we told?

st ephen

Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:08:00 +1200

"Metiria Turei campaigned for political parties but didn't work while lying to Winz"

Katharine Moody

Mon, 24 Jul 2017 18:32:56 +1200

rapid redacting

Fascinating, the media minders sped into action. Any recollection of what was redacted?

andin

Mon, 24 Jul 2017 10:50:35 +1200

Metiria Turei

She comes across as genuine, more so than the likes S Joyce, W Peters or P Bennett

Tom Semmens

Mon, 24 Jul 2017 08:13:51 +1200

Eastern suburbs have that vibe when I venture there. Two nations.

It is the culture shift that occurs when you have massive inequality. Perfectly nice middle class Chileans know nothing and care even less for the people who live in the slums of Santiago, beyond seeing them as an irritant…

Sacha

Sun, 23 Jul 2017 14:44:13 +1200

I notice a sort of swagger some people have when I visit the supermarket down the bottom of college hill. It's a sort of confidence that says I'm doing ok, l'm in the bubble.

Eastern suburbs have that vibe when I venture there. Two nations.

Sacha

Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:32:26 +1200

Metiria Turei interview clip from Q&A (12 mins).

Sacha

Sun, 23 Jul 2017 11:03:17 +1200

In reality she likely had a housemate and didn't declare their rent payments.

It would be interesting if both got in trouble for the same thing. This passage survived some rapid redacting of a Fairfax article this morning shortly after initial publication:

Another truckie, Rex Howie, says he knew Bennett…

Warren Doney

Sat, 22 Jul 2017 08:56:34 +1200

I feel it with the Bitcoin too. Someone asked what I wish I knew 5 years ago, and I did the research. I console myself by thinking I probably would have had it all in Mt Gox :)

Moz

Fri, 21 Jul 2017 13:43:51 +1200

I'm not in a position to vote my feelings on anyone, never have been. Two main reasons: I'm quite misanthropic and judgemental, so the overwhelming majority of people seem like arseholes to me. Secondly, I grew up knowing politicians and political people. I've hung out with people from Bill Rowling…

Moz

Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:51:26 +1200

I have heard allegations she was receiving undeclared income from a rental property.

That phrasing is marvellous!

The easy implication is that she owned a rental property and wasn't declaring it or the income. In reality she likely had a housemate and didn't declare their rent payments.

But hearing that…

Tom Semmens

Fri, 21 Jul 2017 09:23:59 +1200

I have heard allegations she was receiving undeclared income from a rental property.

Now, I don’t know if this is true or not. But let’s assume it is. The thing is this is how the NZ economy operates in the real world. Cash job discount here, a little bit of…

Sacha

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 22:13:22 +1200

I have heard allegations she was receiving undeclared income from a rental property.

Sacha

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 22:10:35 +1200

Anecdotal word is

Oh, there's evidence beyond that. No shame.

Katharine Moody

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 19:13:41 +1200

“I never lied to them as such”.

Skating on thinner ice by the day.

Roland Askew

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:19:13 +1200

It's possible they never considered.

Anecdotal word is, when ms Ruthanasia herself wanted minimum subsistence levels measured for benefits and was told of the findings, she said "cut them by 25%, that will get more people into work!" And they were, and despite recent rises in some benefit levels they've…

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 17:03:44 +1200

I told a lie to claim benefits. Now I am an MP
and I want to tell you why
– Metiria Turei
https://www.theguardian.com/global/commentisfree/2017/jul/20/lie-claim-benefits-mp-tell-you-why-new-zealand?

Moz

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:09:37 +1200

"I never lied to them as such"

Charitably that could mean that she lied about being available for full-time work while on the unemployment benefit and studying (or some similar stupid requirement).

I am guessing she's trying to exclude lying by omission, suggesting she failed to report income or a…

John Farrell

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:31:17 +1200

She probably used a terminological inexactitude, instead.

Sacha

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 14:21:46 +1200

she never deliberately lied

Bennett's wording in the RNZ interview included "I never lied to them as such". Now, what could that mean .. ?

Moz

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 13:03:02 +1200

Now, seen as how this is the Winz confessional blog

It is?

Forgive me Russell for I have sinned, I took money from the guvmint what I was not s'posed to... Although I don't actually recall doing that, but I'm sure I did. I was more inclined to trespass against…

Moz

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 10:05:36 +1200

she was never deliberately in a position to lie to WINZ.

In other words, when she was in a position to lie to WINZ she got there by accident.

She is very carefully not denying that she lied to WINZ.

Joe Wylie

Thu, 20 Jul 2017 09:37:58 +1200

Now that we are onto the turning of phrase, I’ve been noticing politicians not answering questions by saying : “sorry, that’s above my pay grade”.

Is that right? Not that I'd know, but it's the kind of talk that I'd have assumed happened with strippers and football teams.

Katharine Moody

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 23:33:58 +1200

Glad you thought so too.

linger

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 23:23:11 +1200

never deliberately in a position to lie to WINZ
I take it to mean, she’s assuming some other position that I don’t want to visualise.
Seriously, that’s … not just odd, not just spinning, but a deviantly legalistic turn of phrase, too hedged by far to have any real-world application.

Katharine Moody

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:25:48 +1200

Anyone else find this statement from Paula Bennett interesting;

Deputy Prime Minister Paula Bennett, someone with firsthand experience of the welfare system, said she was never deliberately in a position to lie to WINZ.

I take that to mean, she never deliberately lied, but did by accident. Another master of…

Katharine Moody

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 22:11:14 +1200

policies that profited a small section of the population (the already wealthy), and corporations that could work all the angles on tax avoidance, has so distorted our previously social democratic state

Exactly. Lawful tax avoidance – it's neoliberalism all grown up and on steroids – globalisation, the ideological sham of…

John McCormick

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 18:04:58 +1200

Presumably all the people demanding that Metiria Turei pay back the govt have never broken the speed limit. Because if they had, they would now be rushing to the Ministry of Transport to pay the required fines. They broke the law and didn't get caught, same as Metiria. Why shouldn't…

andin

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 18:03:55 +1200

If it’s not a wealth redistribution system, it’s not working

The main reason to redistribute is, that due to ideologies that gave birth to policies that profited a small section of the population (the already wealthy), and corporations that could work all the angles on tax avoidance, has so distorted…

nzlemming

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 16:37:59 +1200

To finance anything like a functional livable ubi, a lot of companies would need to pay a heap more tax.

FTFY

Moz

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 15:12:06 +1200

“if you make it to the top floor, don’t forget to send the elevator back down…” and hope it applies this election to 90s alumni voters that are doing better now

Isn't the famous former solo mother who got a degree while on the benefit and eventually made it into…

Alec Morgan

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 15:02:48 +1200

well conveyed Russell, the “Burn Shipley Burn!” 90s were not golden years for many,

as the initial 80s wrecking ball Roger Douglas swung through the provinces in particular, morphed into the Richardson MOAB, and union busting Employment Contracts Act, this country’s once fairly benevolent Social Security system became more a…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:31:40 +1200

I want to live as part of a society that does its best to care for everyone. And I'll vote to achieve that if I can.

We don't currently live in such a society. We as a nation have a government that is comfortable having citizens suffer. And suffer simply…

Rob Stowell

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:52:16 +1200

Yeah. Places of casual humiliation and institutionalised cruelty. A long time since I’ve been personally on a benefit, but I’ve been close enough to get the vibe. Still possible to meet someone decent working there. But social welfare is the last thing they seem designed to foster.

Rob Stowell

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:47:35 +1200

Some UBI models balance this out by having a higher tax rate for people on higher incomes i.e. they don’t literally get the extra $ in their bank account.
To finance anything like a functional livable ubi, a lot of people would need to pay a heap more tax. Some…

Moz

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:35:27 +1200

In Australia some wonk did the numbers and came up with a very detailed explanation, but in short: if every single person getting a non-pension benefit was actually entitled to nothing at all, the level of fraud involved would still be less than the amount of tax fraud detected.

That's…

Moz

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:30:56 +1200

As a victim of the system, I have no doubt that MSD have a formula ready at hand. Bastids.

Oh, they have a formula all right "your money. Hand it over. Fuck you".

I'm not sure I have the order of phrases exactly right, though.

nzlemming

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 19:06:22 +1200

How exactly is this magical mythical amount to be instantly calculated?

As a victim of the system, I have no doubt that MSD have a formula ready at hand. Bastids.

WaterDragon

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 15:31:23 +1200

As I watch the somewhat predictable cries of "pay it back now" from those with too much moral outrage on their hands, I keep thinking that they really have no idea. How exactly is this magical mythical amount to be instantly calculated?
It is far more likely that the presence…

Sacha

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 15:06:34 +1200

To be fair there has been a lot of opposition this term, but much of it happens in Parliament and not many people are watching.

If it is not competently publicised, it didn't happen.

mark taslov

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 14:24:16 +1200

an “Empire of cruelty” and, having had some interaction with them in the last year I can see why.

Absolutely, as if inflicting trauma in the community must be an unavoidable byproduct of dispensing assistance.

Hilary Stace

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:04:06 +1200

To be fair there has been a lot of opposition this term, but much of it happens in Parliament and not many people are watching.

Graeme Edgeler

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:58:03 +1200

Benefit levels were quite deliberately set below subsistence level.

Still at this level, right (or is that just without kids)? Labour never reversed Richardson's benefit cuts, and still haven't promised to.

Tom Semmens

Tue, 18 Jul 2017 07:46:43 +1200

while now WINZ feels like weaponised war on the poor.

Chris Trotter describes it as an "Empire of cruelty" and, having had some interaction with them in the last year I can see why. I did OK – for reasons to do with race and privilege – but even then,…

linger

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 22:57:09 +1200

Agreed that there needed to be more actual opposition from the Opposition this last couple of terms, but the Greens have consistently done more than Labour there, and you'd be hard pressed to conclude they're as baselessly poll-driven as either National or Labour. On balance, the Greens, having put in…

weka

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 21:48:06 +1200

The whole department ought to be disestablished via switching to a suitable UBI

We will always need welfare because not everyone's income needs or abilities are the same. And that necessitates an administering department. I'd be ok with dismantling WINZ if it were replaced by a smaller Dept of Social…

weka

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 21:45:08 +1200

Re giving the rich an unnecessary payment, a suitable design for UBI could negate that criticism by defining it as a universal entitlement based on citizenship and adulthood, but including the right for the government to withold it from those who don't actually need it.

Some UBI models balance this…

weka

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 21:41:55 +1200

Agree with that too – do you think the Green's proposal comes close to what is needed?

I think their general Income Support policy along with the announcement on the weekend is very good in terms of addressing the changes that need to happen in the culture, the structure, and…

Hilary Stace

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 21:33:59 +1200

It’s quite exciting how popular the idea of a UBI has become even in the last year. Of course a major problem is how to do top ups for those who need a bit more than the basic UBI. I wrote about the UBI after Guy Standing visited last year.…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 20:29:46 +1200

I was standing exhaustedly ironing one day when I was on the DPB and on the radio was Parliament, and there was my PM Rob Muldoon declaring that women on the DPB who took money under the table were worse than tax evaders.
These were the days when my neighbours…

Dennis Frank

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 20:26:08 +1200

There are WINZ employees who do a good job, then there are some who stuff up the lives of their clients due to their incompetence (normally blame the system), and those who get a reputation as Welfare Nazis may even be using the bureaucracy to discriminate against their clients. The…

Katharine Moody

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:39:32 +1200

At the moment we are using a very dysfunctional, monkey-wrenched welfare system. I’d like to see that put right first, structurally and culturally.

Agree with that too – do you think the Green's proposal comes close to what is needed?

weka

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:13:28 +1200

but then what it did do was free people up to make their own life decisions.

It would do that for some people. Others would be pushed into worse poverty, and have less autonomy and self-determination. That's not a universal scheme.

I'm not sure there are many other policy answers…

peter mclennan

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:12:50 +1200

Universal Basic Income would definitely stop all this penny-ante nonsense.

mark taslov

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 19:12:10 +1200

That moral high horse really is getting to be a tired old nag.

That moral high horse has a tendency to vaporise at altitude. A decade and a half ago I was working part time and receiving a benefit. My wage wasn’t regular and when I was paid over the…

Paul Campbell

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:36:23 +1200

I think the big upside to universality is that because it applies to everyone the rich and powerful are invested, they've been paying in all their lives too

Katharine Moody

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 18:10:51 +1200

Yes, I know what you mean about the Big Kahuna as proposed in the book delivered a UBI at something around the equivalent of the unemployment benefit to every adult. For those paying that amount (or more) in tax, they got that amount tax free.

The amount might have needed…

weka

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 17:18:11 +1200

yes, that's my understanding. Also it's on top of any benefits, whereas TBK would replace them, which is a massive (unexplained) difference.

The Big Kahuna would make things worse for many people, because it scraps all welfare and replaces it with the equivalent of the dole. If you need topups,…

Katharine Moody

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:59:40 +1200

The Big Kahuna UBI was a real UBI (i.e., universal) – the TOP one is not (i.e., it's targeted as you say) and all other welfare benefits (outside that targeted group) remain unchanged, as I understand it (aside from super, as that would be means tested).

In other words, it's…

Hilary Stace

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:57:44 +1200

I heard recently that about half of all beneficiaries are paying back loans to Work and Income. So they are getting even less that they should be. To survive I suspect there is quite a bit of the black economy going on.

On the other hand it is actually really…

Alice Ronald

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:34:58 +1200

In the spirit of openness, I didn't buy a new PC every year with my course-related costs student loan claim.

I didn't buy all those brand new textbooks that I got quotes for from the Uni book shop either.

weka

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 16:23:36 +1200

Gareth Morgan's UBI proposal would make the lives of many vulnerable people worse because it has no plan for those people currently dependent on supplementary benefits. Anyone who can't work would be forced to live on less than they get now (most beneficiaries are dependent on supplementary benefits). So that's…

Katharine Moody

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 15:28:50 +1200

If you had an unemployment benefit, and decided to apply zero abatements for additional income, would that not be like a baby step towards UBI?

Yes, but the beauty of a UBI is that it is universal – just like super – no means testing whatsoever, hence no abatement regime.…

andin

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:55:19 +1200

usual suspects on the right have leapt on it,
That moral high horse really is getting to be a tired old nag.
The poor thing needs to be put out to pasture, but the bandits who like riding it will still be trying too make moral capital off its ghost,…

James Littlewood*

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:52:25 +1200

If you had an unemployment benefit, and decided to apply zero abatements for additional income, would that not be like a baby step towards UBI?

Meanwhile students are positively encouraged to work on a benefit granted them specifically to relieve them of the need to work.

Helga

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:47:00 +1200

oga

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:45:11 +1200

Groaned when I saw the video on Stuff. Interpreter is completely obscured by the podium. What's the point of having an interpreter when nobody except those actually in the room can see them speaking?

Katharine Moody

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:40:54 +1200

How do they not know? How do they not already know?

I didn't know until I read the Big Kahuna by Guthrie and Morgan. I was appalled.

weka

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:38:50 +1200

How do they not know? How do they not already know?

I'd love to know when that system was designed. Does it predate the Lange government?

I'm think that benefit abatement was seen as different than tax, and it took a long time for anyone to start looking at the…

Katharine Moody

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:37:12 +1200

I don’t have any sweeping moral proclaimation to make about fiddling the system. In principle, I don’t like it.

Someone said on another blog that fiddling the tax/welfare system is a national pastime. The way I look at it – they are one and the same system – and everyone…

Rob Stowell

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:34:20 +1200

I did a bit of studying while I was supposed to be looking for work. It paid off – been paying tax more-or-less ever since. But I hate that back then, the system seemed relatively benign, while now WINZ feels like weaponised war on the poor.

Russell Brown

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:31:45 +1200

How do they not know? How do they not already know?

Isn’t that strange?

I confess, I did take some pleasure in walking past Income Support every month to sell records at Real Groovy. I’d done a huge blag with the publicists before leaving London and the good money for…

Emma Hart

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:27:00 +1200

Yeah, there was a time in the early nineties when my partner, who also had a student loan, explained to his W&I guy that, if he worked another hour a week in his part-time job, he would lose money: his real tax rate would pass 100%. The guy said, that can't…

weka

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:17:55 +1200

One of the issues here is that additional income for long term beneficiaries can be assessed yearly. At the end of the year they look at earnings, divide by 52 and take that off your benefit for the coming year. Relatively simple, although it has some issues too.

With benefits…

nzlemming

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:15:19 +1200

The usual suspects are really nasty this time because she's not only a politician, she's female and Maori. Ugh.

Shane Le Brun

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:09:45 +1200

I wish I was like my fellow former army folk going to student life, I put my golden handshake into kiwisaver so I didn't have to admit to having a cash asset, my peers however put it into shares etc and made a hefty return while claiming student bennies saying…

Scott A

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:08:39 +1200

Or not telling Work and Income you've found work until you get paid, because otherwise they cut your benefit off immediately leaving you with no money to eat/ pay rent / get to your new job until the first payday occurs.

Tom Semmens

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 13:00:11 +1200

I never had a cash bar job at the cossie club when I was on the dole for a while in the early 1990s either.

Pete Sime

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 12:56:36 +1200

In the spirit of openness, I didn't buy a new PC every year with my course-related costs student loan claim.

Public Address

Mon, 17 Jul 2017 12:56:36 +1200

Discussion from blog post.