Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: NZME and you

simon g

Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:32:55 +1300

NZME. Fairfax. Mediaworks.

Fearlessly dedicated to bringing you all the big stories ... about each other.

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 12 Oct 2015 08:58:20 +1300

Cut back HTML and cache stuff to make mobile devices go faster? Deja vu like it’s 1999.

(For added retro-points, they could convert the markup into binary at their servers).

Steve Barnes

Sun, 11 Oct 2015 17:35:33 +1300

Somebody call?

Copyright is evil and should be abolished. Art yearns to be free…
You can sing for your supper but I won’t buy you breakfast, lunch or tea…

/gets popcorn, sits back in anticipation…
;-)

David Hood

Thu, 08 Oct 2015 18:20:32 +1300

Google's response to Facebook and Apple's in-gathering of news http://www.niemanlab.org/2015/10/get-ampd-heres-what-publishers-need-to-know-about-googles-new-plan-to-speed-up-your-website/

nzlemming

Thu, 24 Sept 2015 23:20:01 +1200

Without wanting to make this a copyright thread that will never die,

Somebody call?

Ian Dalziel

Thu, 24 Sept 2015 12:23:49 +1200

Deep throat…
From today’s Herald.
The would-be assassin, an inconspicuous piece of pineapple, was thwarted by Hosking’s colleague Martin Devlin, who saved him with the “Heineken maneuver."
Does this make Martin Devlin a ‘Dole Budger’?
and nice of them to make light of the Heimlich Maneuver…

Sacha

Thu, 24 Sept 2015 12:15:51 +1200

To me that suggests we have to stop worrying about those traditional channels and figure out an alternative that naturally as part of its core embeds those things we value. That's as opposed to the current situation where those things we value were always considered a cost.

Yes. The benefits…

Alfie

Thu, 24 Sept 2015 12:01:24 +1200

From today's Herald.

Kumara Republic

Thu, 24 Sept 2015 00:47:10 +1200

Just for fun, I compiled a Venn diagram of the NZ media landscape, with a few overseas examples included for comparison. Feel free to suggest corrections and additions.

Gareth Swain

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 17:23:07 +1200

Sorry to derail the thread... can I ask about Take Back the News?

Will the New Scoop be just the current Scoop site with the content described at takebackthenews.nz ? Or will it be a new site? And when is it scheduled to be launched?

I understand (and like!) the…

Moz

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 16:32:13 +1200

here are not many sites in NZ that do more than 50,000 a month. The google ads total is closer to $150 a month at that level.

Yep. I used to comfortably pay for decent hosting using google ads even on my small sites, but it stopped being worth the…

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 15:52:08 +1200

unwanted aspirations...
I’d rather pay tax for the air I breathe than my bandwidth....
No!
Please don't suggest such a thing.
Not even in jest!
Morphic resonance, synchronicity, human rapacity and all that...

David Hood

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 15:17:12 +1200

I’d rather pay tax for the air I breathe than my bandwidth, because at least the air I use is constant, and you could argue it’s a common good I’m taking from, unlike data flowing down a wire that I’m already paying for the use of, and indirectly the installation…

simon g

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 14:59:34 +1200

An illustration (sic) of what happens when your newsroom is emptied out:

Herald runs an online story about the flag, and the NZ First claim that it looks like a Nazi design.

A quick search of Getty images and they come up with the requisite photo ... of the Federal Republic…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 14:54:17 +1200

As an alternative, it seems fairer to me just to slap it on the current tax take as is, rather than invent arbitrary new taxes with new admin overheads that involve winding back the unlimited bandwidth clock to the bad old days. If it’s a common good it should be…

Alastair Thompson

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 14:05:53 +1200

Google Doubleclick for Publishers aka DFP is a Google Product which is wonderful and provided for free to publishers – and one which saved us a lot of money when it was made free. Google provides a heap of wonderful free tools notably Analytics which Scoop and countless other news…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 13:52:43 +1200

I think there are a lot of exceptionally talented people around the world who have been grappling with how to respond to the digital disintermediation of media

I agree. I don't for a second think the job is easy, but that's no excuse to pay very high salaries for very…

BenWilson

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 12:53:13 +1200

Dismissing other people’s solutions is easy.

Proposing workable ways to address this issue is what is need.

I could have been nicer. But I don't think that means I have to be nice about a really bad idea, just because I personally haven't proposed a better one. You could propose…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 12:49:55 +1200

I propose levying his communications. Jesus, could communication be one thing that doesn’t have the government’s finger right up it? They’re already scanning it all. Now we have to pay them for it too? Just to maintain something older that people who use it won’t pay for, and those that…

Jason Kemp

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 12:43:16 +1200

I look after a large number of content sites and the busiest one may have brought in more a few years ago but googles systems keep changing and a good day is more like $5 US. That is for a site which has 40-50,000 visitors a month. There are not…

Rob Stowell

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 12:37:35 +1200

There’s no reason a levy like that could not be distributed through a vehicle like NZ on Air, but with less control being ceded to boadcasters/publishers
Reckon it needs to be thought through a little better. NZ on Air has been a poor model in many ways.
And I feel…

Sacha

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 12:27:11 +1200

There's no reason a levy like that could not be distributed through a vehicle like NZ on Air, but with less control being ceded to boadcasters/publishers – and a broader range of them across media types including print and online.

Sacha

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 12:24:15 +1200

It's through DoubleClick, a Google subsidiary

Really? Maybe I'm wrong then.
Can we get a Russell in the house?

Moz

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 12:18:54 +1200

When I played with an iPhone a while ago the "free" apps I saw all had ads embedded in them. ... Isn't that exactly the case with free apps on Google Play?

I assume so, but the ad-blocker I have removes them. It's been a while since I saw an…

llew40

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 11:56:27 +1200

Poor and average managers don’t have the talent to improve the business so they improve profit by cutting costs. Part of the problem comes from poor and average quality managers. Talented managers, and yes even I believe they exist, increase profit by increasing the value of the product they produce…

David Hood

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 10:35:12 +1200

As for ‘tagging’ them, a tag is nothing more than a fact about what is in a text, and facts are not copyrightable.

I think you are importing some US notions into this debate. Without wanting to make this a copyright thread that will never die, you might want to…

Vivid

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 10:09:43 +1200

You will never have an exclusive copyright on your version ( if indeed you really do, I wouldn't be certain that the court would agree with your definition of typography, It is undefined in the legislation, but I wouldn't feel safe saying that copying text into a html file constitutes…

Bart Janssen

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 09:38:47 +1200

current capitalism’s increasing need for profit increases, means that a lot of jobs in the area are under threat

Part of the problem comes from poor and average quality managers. Talented managers, and yes even I believe they exist, increase profit by increasing the value of the product they produce…

David Hood

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 09:21:10 +1200

To me, the core problem is that the global process of automation + centralisation + current capitalism's increasing need for profit increases, means that a lot of jobs in the area are under threat, which due to the change in number of people vs number of jobs makes it harder…

Alastair Thompson

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 08:31:42 +1200

While I think a per GB communications tax is a poor way to fund NZ culture I do think that some form of Government action is required if NZ culture is to survive in a digital age. Some kind of per household connection tax – ala the broadcasting license fee…

Alastair Thompson

Wed, 23 Sept 2015 08:25:01 +1200

We respectfully disagree :)

Our view is that a Press Release is a special kind of publication from a copyright perspective. It is effectively a communication issued under a commercial reuse is allowed basis, with derivative works being granted their own exclusive copyright. We regard our copies as derivative works…

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 23:51:53 +1200

Again, VUW’s Peter Thompson proposes levying all communications infrastructure, not just the Internet.

I propose levying his communications. Jesus, could communication be one thing that doesn't have the government's finger right up it? They're already scanning it all. Now we have to pay them for it too? Just to maintain…

Vivid

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 23:18:58 +1200

More importantly though the approach to news copyright which Scoop has adopted is not limited to use with Press Releases.

Where it does relate to press releases, though, you have no control over how that information is used, and you certainly have no right to charge other people to use…

Kumara Republic

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 22:53:26 +1200

No. Just…no.

Again, VUW's Peter Thompson proposes levying all communications infrastructure, not just the Internet.

Which is far from surprising as the media owners are vacuous money managers (Oaktree capital which owns Mediaworks is a so-called Vulture Fund) who think that news is a form of complicated content widget which…

Alastair Thompson

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 22:53:14 +1200

Wouldn’t “new approach to licensing content” be a better descriptor as large part of your content is copyrighted to the organisations that wrote the press releases.

We are licensing our copyright to the content. Which is news content. So I think both descriptors work. More importantly though the approach to…

Alastair Thompson

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 22:46:17 +1200

Why not let the paper debut these then migrate them to the web…

Why the rush?

The parasite isn’t supposed to kill the host…

Yip. The managers of our current media companies are daft.

Which is far from surprising as the media owners are vacuous money managers (Oaktree capital which…

Alastair Thompson

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 22:37:15 +1200

I’d happily subscribe to a genuine NZ news service that used my subscription to pay journalists. But are there enough people like me to make it work? And would I actually get the news I need rather than just the news I want?

That's pretty much what the Scoop Foundation…

Cameron Pitches

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 22:21:59 +1200

Google had trouble matching ads to content – it works much better for product and technical blogs.

But Google ads don't relate to the content of the website they appear on. Google decides what ads to display to each unique visitor, based on whatever the visitor has been googling previously…

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 17:26:36 +1200

but a small tax on each gigabyte, collected by ISPs and built into the monthly line rental of users, could potentailly be a very profitable way to make public broadcasting free of tax payer funding

No. Just...no.

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 17:19:11 +1200

the importance of being earners...
Poor old Advertising, poor cousin of Public Relations and Public Information (of the 'kind-you-can-use')....
I've often thought that Public Address should have a Community Notices page to tout the passing entertainments and fixed trades on offer in the catchment.
Needn't be much, just a page…

Vivid

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 16:34:10 +1200

And there is also Scoop's new approach to news copyright. which is gaining traction fast.

Wouldn't "new approach to licensing content" be a better descriptor as large part of your content is copyrighted to the organisations that wrote the press releases.

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 16:24:00 +1200

With ads, quite simply if the audience for both content and ads match then the reader experience is enhanced.

Yes, totally. I think of the "you might also like" in the TradeMe auction/sales, which are almost always better than the searches themselves at finding what I actually want. Some of…

Sarah King

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 16:20:32 +1200

We still get the print edition of the NZ Herald and my favourite game is to guess what page the real news will start out on. The front page has become so irrelevant that it's barely read. A fixation on house prices and what the b/g friends of minor celebs…

Rich of Observationz

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 16:09:49 +1200

Funny thing was NZOA chose not to fund news or current affairs, precisely because those genres attracted sufficient ad revenue to pay their own way

Was that the reason? I thought it was to avoid accusations of bias in the allocation of funding?

Ian Dalziel

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 16:09:47 +1200

Free view...A world in which it becomes easier to get things for free is not particularly conducive to being able to retain and pay for quality journalism.
Which is why I don't understand Stuff/Fairfax's policy of putting their own content 'online' before it appears 'in print'...
I hate reading through…

BenWilson

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 16:03:07 +1200

Nope. Tis from Scoop’s ad-serving network; Public Address is a member.

OIC. It's through DoubleClick, a Google subsidiary.

Alastair Thompson

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 14:52:39 +1200

There has been a bunch of discussion in this thread about the role of advertising in all of this, as a cause and as a solution to the problem.

The advertising markets are not well understood by the public nor by the media – and this is pretty clear in…

Sacha

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 14:25:35 +1200

And would I actually get the news I need rather than just the news I want?

quite – which goes back to the value of a 4th estate, amongst other things.

Rob Stowell

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 14:22:28 +1200

On the same general topic: if anyone hasn't seen it, Josh Marshall's Talking Points Memo is a completely 'new media' site, broadly focussed on US political news from left-of-centre. It's grown from one-man-blogging to a staff of about 20, I'd guess. Much of the appeal is the editorial comment -…

Berinthia Binnie

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 13:41:43 +1200

Well this is topical in my little bubble.

I have recently ditched a few of my nostalgia reads (SS Times/Listener: grew up in the eighties) as the enjoyment, for me, was gone but the habit wasn't. So time to relocate the limited time and funds to new reads.

Digital New…

llew40

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 13:35:47 +1200

But are there enough people like me to make it work?

I think this is the nub of it. I didnt mean to infer that getting news for free is universal. There are many people who are willing to pay for content/news creation and who respect property rights and the…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 13:29:46 +1200

A world in which it becomes easier to get things for free is not particularly conducive to being able to retain and pay for quality journalism.

It's not just getting things for free. Because I can choose to wait and buy content that I specifically want, I can pay the…

llew40

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 13:17:07 +1200

The other challenge for advertisers (and media outlets) is that, increasingly, consumers are becoming channel-agnostic, and often have news or content 'self-curated' for them by the crowd of their contacts on social media.

When FB, Twitter etc become the default channels, then investing in building an audience for content that…

Stansta

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 11:56:57 +1200

Sites need 1 of 2 things to survive (ideally both) Reach and relevance.
Unfortunately most NZ sites don't have Reach so need to be relevant, attracting attracting a high value audience.
Now you need to sell that "high value audience".
Selling stuff is expensive to do well.
You either hire…

bob daktari

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 11:33:00 +1200

plus Q&A, The Nation and a whole bunch of others no doubt – what they haven't done is fund the various news bulletins

Bart Janssen

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 10:56:55 +1200

Sorry for a half formed thought but it seems to me part of the problem with the MSM has to do with how effective advertising is now. Because the audiences are spread far and wide, often to very special interest places, any advertising anywhere is less effective. That makes advertising…

Vivid

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 10:48:12 +1200

While Google raked in a revenue of $3.98 billion from mobile ad and Facebook pocketed $1.53 billion, Apple's mobile ad earnings can be considered meager at $258 million.

This is why Apple is allowing ad-blockers in safari on the iPhone. Not to improve the browsing experience of its customers but…

Sacha

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 10:08:15 +1200

Funny thing was NZOA chose not to fund news or current affairs, precisely because those genres attracted sufficient ad revenue to pay their own way.

How long will that last? I guess we're now well on the way to filing news under "special interest."

They've funded '3D Investigates' – which…

Bart Janssen

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 09:35:15 +1200

Only stupid people click on ads, clearly.

It's like reading the comments ... oh wait

Tom Semmens

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 08:01:19 +1200

Reading through this discourse puts me in mind of the public broadcasting license. I think Bolger put an end to it in 1999, in his last political act before electoral feat later the same year.

I am a strong believer that some sort of broadcasting fee needs to be brought…

Tom Semmens

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 07:53:05 +1200

“there is no longer any requirement for Auckland commentary”.

The democratic implications of having a media where political and Auckland coverage is all rolled up in one series of uncritical celebrity worship news about Max Key's bimbo girlfriend and her performance in a beauty pageant are terrifying.

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 07:52:36 +1200

When I played with an iPhone a while ago the "free" apps I saw all had ads embedded in them.

Isn't that exactly the case with free apps on Google Play?

One complaint from the tech-savvy owner was that those ads were impossible to filter out without breaking the apps.…

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 07:28:27 +1200

The best value ads are attracted by sites that are basically about the product advertised. They’re high value because the people going to the site are naturally interested in the ads. But what product really has that synergy with people who are interested in the news and general discussion?

Yep,…

Russell Brown

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 07:27:25 +1200

Russell, what's your take on Google ads? It's not unheard of for NZ blogging sites to bring in a hundred bucks a day. Surely better than a kick in the pants?

Maybe things have changed, but Google ads didn't work for us at all. Google had trouble matching ads to…

James Littlewood*

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 01:03:21 +1200

Reading through this discourse puts me in mind of the public broadcasting license. I think Bolger put an end to it in 1999, in his last political act before electoral feat later the same year.

A license, for which a fee was collected by NZOA and then distributed around national…

Sacha

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 00:24:41 +1200

As far as I can tell, there’s a Google ad at the top of this page right now. It’s, unsurprisingly, an ad for a news site, Scoop.

Nope. Tis from Scoop's ad-serving network; Public Address is a member.

Sacha

Tue, 22 Sept 2015 00:23:57 +1200

And don't get me started on the screen size Apple lets you have.

5.5 inches

BenWilson

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 23:28:07 +1200

It’s not unheard of for NZ blogging sites to bring in a hundred bucks a day.

I think the problem with sites like this is that they don’t attract high value ads. The best value ads are attracted by sites that are basically about the product advertised. They’re high value…

Cameron Pitches

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 22:40:34 +1200

If you think of anything, let me know

Russell, what's your take on Google ads? It's not unheard of for NZ blogging sites to bring in a hundred bucks a day. Surely better than a kick in the pants?

As a reader, I think it's a fair trade to read…

Moz

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 20:13:38 +1200

one reason I avoid apple is because they insist on ads everywhere. ... Genuine question: what ads are these?

When I played with an iPhone a while ago the "free" apps I saw all had ads embedded in them. One complaint from the tech-savvy owner was that those ads were…

nzlemming

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 19:45:52 +1200

Do more with less is the new normal.
This mantra is not specific to this particular Government, though it is a National theme. The Bolger/Shipley fandango during the 90's destruction of the public sector also used it on a daily basis.

And Brian Rudman was told his job was being…

Jan Rivers

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 18:51:37 +1200

In Wellington there is a mini-conference on 9&10 October – a Friday evening and Saturday at St Andrews on the Terrace which will provide an opportunity to discuss these issues. Amongst those speaking are:

– Alastair Thompson from Scoop,
– Alex Clark whose News Renewed research looked at the market for…

Alastair Thompson

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 17:51:00 +1200

Fantastic report Russell – and thankyou for referencing that piece which I agonised a lot about publishing and which caused considerable consternation at both the major newspaper publishers.

The fact is the NZ news industry is facing an existential crisis. Decisions are being made which cannot be undone which are…

andin

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 17:46:35 +1200

I wouldnt mind paying if I wasnt struggling every week to live on what I earn.
And its going to get worse WTF!
Talk about shoot ourselves in the collective foot.

Russell Brown

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 17:33:16 +1200

Here's some irony.

NZME's random-cost-cutter-in-chief, head of publishing Phil Eustace, was sacked today too.

It always seems to happen after these guys have done their damage ...

Russell Brown

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 16:55:07 +1200

I work with a large number of NZ's digital publishers and am genuinely concerned about the commercial viability of many of them.
The current ad funded model is broken as it relies on advertisers paying a premium for an audience they can find cheaply elsewhere (Facebook, Google.....)

Exactly. It's particularly…

Russell Brown

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 16:51:33 +1200

FWIW there is active discussion around the geeky traps of how to replace online ads with a workable system, but it's a non-trival challenge. The human factors and repeated failures of micropayments make it difficult, but the music and tv subscription services do point to ways forward. In general, "pay…

David Hood

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 16:33:11 +1200

In general, “pay for what you use” breaks because people don’t like knowing that everything they do has a cost

Not to mention things like link prefetching complicating things.

Russell Brown

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 16:31:24 +1200

I can and do already block ads as much as possible, and one reason I avoid apple is because they insist on ads everywhere.

Genuine question: what ads are these?

TracyMac

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 16:21:49 +1200

Yeah, I love all these websites that dutifully explain that they use cookies. That's fine. Do they explain when they're using cross-site tracking cookies, or reading those placed by others? Not so much.

chris

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 16:20:05 +1200

I’m going to (finally) sign us up as Press Council members

What are the benefits? (genuine question)

Stansta

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 16:12:18 +1200

sandra

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:51:00 +1200

I left 'proper' journalism earlier this year, feeling after some 20-odd years in the one place that it was time for a change but also because I could feel the disillusion growing.

The couple of years we all took a wage freeze because the company asked us, because it would…

Moz

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:49:13 +1200

Moz

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:43:55 +1200

I can and do already block ads as much as possible, and one reason I avoid apple is because they insist on ads everywhere. This latest move only allows people to block browser ads AFAIK, not all ads and especially not Apple-ecosystem ads. It's less of a "remove the ads"…

Graham Dunster

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:38:02 +1200

It's not just journalists that are are hurting in the media world, funds available for drama and other local broadcasting are static at best and the fees paid to performers and writers are sinking whilst the hours worked are no less. A lot of this is down to the apparent…

bob daktari

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:24:12 +1200

There is a very real human cost to these changes – I can only guess at the horrid time ahead for many impacted by these changes

we seriously need to start thinking about how we organise ourselves and our societies

David Hood

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:21:07 +1200

I can't help thinking that Apple's embracing of ad-blocking on iOS is only going to make things worse.

I think there is a world of discussion around this one. While I'm not running content blockers, there are genuine issues around loading times, privacy, the value of recycled content (both in…

Mark Graham

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:21:01 +1200

Micro payments. Micro Payments. Micro payments.

When the fuck will the big publishers start sorting out micropayments so the little guys can tag along?

Russell Brown

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:03:05 +1200

I can't help thinking that Apple's embracing of ad-blocking on iOS is only going to make things worse.

Separating itself from the less appealing trappings of internet advertising – tracking cookies et al – is something Apple is beginning to define itself with. I can see how it works for…

Russell Brown

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 15:00:31 +1200

Arrrgh!

I don't know who pisses me off more – you or the fuckwits who are running media companies into the ground.

Pardon?

Dylan Reeve

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 14:43:26 +1200

I can't help thinking that Apple's embracing of ad-blocking on iOS is only going to make things worse.

We ask a lot, but we're willing to trade very little in return. I balk at a paywall and apparently I don't want to see ads either, but by god they'd better…

Kumara Republic

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 14:41:07 +1200

In that NBR article, John Roughan looks to be in for the chop too. So the news isn't all bad.

David MacGregor

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 14:39:46 +1200

Arrrgh!

I don't know who pisses me off more – you or the fuckwits who are running media companies into the ground.
1. Media is good – we benefit from media. In the right hands.
2. Media is dangerous. In the wrong hands it is worse than an atom bomb.…

Craig Ranapia

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 14:21:08 +1200

golden age when Metro could afford to put writers on crime stories (and hence have them sit in court for a month).

And they did it, even when they couldn't really. Metro spent an awfully long time being marginally profitable, but no matter what else you think of Warwick Roger…

Public Address

Mon, 21 Sept 2015 14:21:07 +1200

Discussion from blog post.