Also, if you're not looking for something,…

Which, coincidentally, is the threshold number.

For what seems like the hundred bajillionth time* on this thread: the…

That's pretty much true. They can, however, be complained to about that…

So you were one…

So you are incapable of reading and responding about the venue's terms and conditions being discussed here? How about you go do something you're better suited to. Finger-painting, perhaps.

I think he's made himself just about everyone's hero with one short video clip. *mancrush*

I was at the rugby where all this took place. I am not of the habit of paying attention to anything the crowd yells, ever. I know from experience that I cannot see what is happening more than one row in front of me. This could…

Shouldn't have come to the rugby anyway. Long haired girlie.

I've watched this three times today (showing it to other people) and I cry every time. "The standard you walk past is the standard you accept." That's pretty much what I…

He's competing with James Bremner for that award.

In fact, Tracy Morgan did say something of the kind when she said “harassment of a patron would not be condoned and the men could have been evicted for that.” But then she said – bizarrely – that it couldn’t be harassment unless “everybody else around” was offended…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U

Surely the solution is for like-minded people to show up to games in huge numbers and drown out the boors. Much like Hadyn Green says over here:
This should not be a reason to not attend. This should be a reason to…

I always take that as a compliment given one of NZ's most successful athletes is a girl who throws.

Although I did have to teach a number of the players in our social softball team how to throw – for some reason they hadn't spent many…

Can I be both :)

And well said!

Exactly. I remember going to a rugby game at Eden Park a long time ago, when I was a very young student in my early 20s. It was utterly awful. Any woman who even stood up or was in…

So you're a Utilitarian, rather than a moral relativist. Utilitarianism is an absolutist doctrine. It holds that the good lies in the balance of harms and benefits, and that is in stark contrast to cultural relativism.

Let's have…

Are you suggesting NZers are monocultural?

Good question.

Within the context of this incident, provided the benefits of your actions outweigh the harms, I’d say nothing is wrong with trying to change the prevailing culture.

I suggest you boycott Eden Park and let them know why,…

I hold to it in as much as descriptive relativism attempts to depict a subjective code in an objective way. Makes sense to me at least.

then it’s not at all clear that the morality of an act can be judged…

So... what exactly is wrong with trying to change…

mob rule, so appealing

why is that good?

And I appreciated the way you and your colleagues designed The Gathering's highly-visible support systems like that. Empowered everyone to look after…

Morality is directly related to social context, be it Ancient Rome, pre-European Aotearoa or a Eden Park.

cogent? Unless you hold to, and can defend, moral relativism (and you just said you don't hold to it), then it's not at…

It might sometimes be helpful to understanding a completely different culture. But that is not the situation under discussion here. The woman was a NZer in a NZ rugby stadium.

I'm not. You can't really be one. You simply use it as a tool in trying to be objective.

The simple point I’m making is this: Morality is directly related to social context, be it Ancient Rome, pre-European Aotearoa or a Eden Park.

I’m saying that it is morally acceptable to call the ref a poofter at this particular rugby match, because the uttering of homophobic…

Twice I've been the only person willing to step up and make sure someone's OK when…

I was assuming you were familiar with the basic principles of moral relativism

Silly me.

Oh, and do try to be more polite to people you disagree with. Isn’t that how civilised people are meant to behave?* We aren’t at a rugger match after all.…

My [total amateur] understanding of using the bystander effect is that if a bystander draws the attention of other bystanders to the abusive situation,…

It's a different situation, and I am wearing of threadjacking, so I am sorry if I am, but...it's like street harassment, innit?

I can remember a dude yelling…

Agree it should have been simple enough afterwards for Eden Park to tell media what their conduct standard was, express concern, and leave it at that. What they did instead has also made them look like dicks.

Oh, indeed. Just wondering if there’s anything we can all learn from this happening, so we can better combat it in future.

[and I know the…

There is an Eden Park text number, but the first I knew of it was this week.

OK so no-one is getting murdered in this case, but is there a similar problem with abusive behaviour in a crowd? Everybody expects someone else to take care of it, so nobody does anything?

I honestly don't know, nobody's ever said. I assume both.

That's a sad indictment on the crowd, really. It doesn't take much to say "Hey you, stop hassling her, or I'll go get security". Even one person saying something usually…

Just curious – why are there cameras in the classrooms? Are they monitoring the teacher or the pupils?

It is not an insult to tell people the truth (unless you are a politician). It…

Not for the first time, you're being weirdly disingenuous. You know bloody well that the topic of the post and the core of the current discussion is Eden Park's insulting…

In a temporal distortion?

Eden Park received a complaint days after the crowd had left and was unable to act in a timely manner to prevent an incident that took place those several days earlier.

How the fuck Eden Park were supposed to know this was going…

Well yes, I took my 7 year old to a Warriors game…

'Hahaha, boys will be boys'. Where are we even?

And the “fun police”. Don't forget them.

I despair. Really.

Having left a match half way through due to the inability of security to deal with drunken and abusive behaviour, including the shoulder tapping and feet on the seat behind our heads,…

You're not looking at them through the right PRISM

Same. We are using the word the same way, right? :)

It very clearly was.

Whereas you’ve got to squint pretty hard to decide possession of a beach ball is “contrary to public order”.

they all do

Who says our manufacturing sector is dead?

"Fun police"? What the actual fuck? Are you really…

I don't know about more, but it's a tool and it has its uses.

From Eden Park’s Conditions of entry

Patrons will be requested to leave…

Oh come on. Let’s not re-write the thread and declare victory. The complication is actually the hypocrisy where we’ve got a lot of people explicitly demanding the fun police biff out ANYONE that…

yawn

Do we really need more CCTV?

Precisely what they do for other kinds of misbehaviour. Use technology like CCTV and have security staff patrolling and removing people whose behaviour crosses the line.

Hannah had an unpleasant night at the rugby. Some guys behind her were yelling homophobic abuse at the players and Wayne Barnes. She objected to these comments and told them so. The guys started directing the comments at her / flicking her.

Eden Park said that though they…

What about where said speech is directed at a person?

http://youtu.be/6xF029bEi00

But, hey, at least in Iran women are protected from the gross, icky conduct of men at sporting events (damn animal penis brains strike again!) Amirite or amirite?

‘Negro beating just part of the game,’ rugby fan told

During the final…

I agree, but context matters, and speech should be modified according to context. That is one part personal responsibility – if you're in a large, diverse crowd like I assume one…

I suppose this is the nub of it, and where we disagree. I don’t think hate speech should be banned, one groups hate speech is unfortunately another communities commonly expressed opinions. As long they weren’t inciting the crowd to violence, they…

if you can't cope with the consequences your behaviour brings

You seem to presenting their behaviour as if it was merely expressing a distastefull opinion and then arguing that it should be OK.

For example I would find it distasteful if the folks behind me at the cricket were discussing…

Really crappy analogy there, Tom. I've got slightly higher expectations…

A question I hope Auckland Rugby and the NZRFU are asking as well, considering they're making some effort to... well, give live rugby an…

They both have the right, and as far…

And physically harassed her. No one should have to "cope" with that.

As…

Well what do you propose actually doing about it? Chucking people out for loudly expressing opinions you find distasteful? Because that is a cure worse than the disease, IMHO. Everyone sitting around in silence, unless they celebrate in the manner proscribed in…

Or how's about a certain sector of society…

Of course they do. I imagine if I showed up with my dick hanging out of my trousers, a fully-loaded bong in one hand and a flagon of paint-stripper home-brew in the other, I'd be…

The mistake you are making is assuming Eden Park is a public space, it is not. The management of…

This is an interesting distinction. What are expletives if not bad taste and offensive words?

ETA: except for improved versions of "very" that is

I think this is worth repeating, Tom, but football clubs in the UK…

+1

Spoken like a straight white educated dude, sir.

Heck if the Aussies can do it..

The problem is this argument has quickly become a censorship one, rather than one about the appalling attitude of Eden Park management to a genuine complaint.

No one (well, maybe except the Eden Park spokesperson) is saying it is OK…

But you're okay with a rugby player not being able to watch a rugby game without being abused. Okay.

Lot of men out there feel discriminated against, probably without much justification from my perspective…

No, but it would be a great chant if they did. "You play like a heterosexual you medium sized, Corolla driving, Dire Straits loving accountant, you!"

Witty,…

Well, the Aussies are hosting the Bingham Cup next year, so don't speak too soon. (I jest, I'm sure our homolicious cousins over the water will be…

Mostly because it drives page views.

The key difference being that no one is abusively yelling "look at that guy, what a fucking heterosexual!" about them at the rugby.

Latest bugbear: why do mainstream papers allow comments on their news items at all? Barely anything anyone says ever adds to the story, it's just an echo-chamber for dicks. Just reinforces one-dimensional opinions. At least letters to the editor are…

I've never heard anything like that. It possibly wouldn't even occur to kind of…

Yeah, but nah... I'm one of these cranks who actually believes that when someone is acting obnoxiously it's their responsibility to change their ways or accept the kind of consequences that exist in any…

Not in my experience. Perhaps your awareness has changed.

If you really think that, don’t bother engaging. But I suspect your response has more to do with your passive aggression.

What on earth does that mean?

It means that market researchers listen to feedback and that morality isn't absolute,…

Hmm, I don’t know about this one.

In my experience a typical rugby crowd is always going to have a few assholes in it. If you’re of a sensitive disposition, I suggest you don’t go.

A lot of people see this as just "A few guys who were…

Depends who you listen to. Lot of men out there feel discriminated against, probably without much justification from my perspective – but perception is reality at an individual level.

You actually don’t know what you’re talking about, do you? The idea that the solution is anyone who's a…

No, I suggest you do what I do, speaking as one with a moderately sensitive disposition. The public events I attend have a prevailing culture compatible with my levels of passive tolerance.

But by…

Would it be appropriate to note the irony of the (entirely worthy) Applaud campaign. If dick-baggery isn't acceptable on the sidelines of kids' matches, it shouldn't be tolerated at…

Managers

Yeah, Chris, and it's funny how it always seems to be women, GLBT people, Jews, Muslims and people of colour who are…

In my experience a typical rugby crowd is always going to have a few assholes in it. If you're of a sensitive disposition, I suggest you don't go.

Sure, but that's just amongst those who could be bothered writing a comment, and whose comments were printable (I've never figured out what will and won't have a comment fail Your Views' moderation). Any schmoe can…

Which led…

However, hate speech is only a short step away from physical violence. They must have never been the target…

I’ve experienced that. However I couldn’t see what I did without speaking out loud about ( I was already shocked that noone had spoken up before they got through to me ) their behaviour as soon as they got within earshot. Blood over the…

But that wasn't the case here.
But then they turned on her for the rest of the match, directing slurs in her ear, tapping her on the head and telling her not…

It's not common here in Japan. Mind you, there doesn't seem to be much need for something like that here.

Do you want the specifics available to people sitting in darkened and extremely distracting enviroment where information is hard to determine and interpret? Or would you prefer the specific and much more perfect info available to people debating the subject in minutae on the internet 3 or 4 days…

If you are indifferent to the argument. To which side do you assent?

Yes but..... we can all have those days. Let's just hope she realises the stupidity of her statement and corrects herself for everyones benefit eh?

…to verbal and physical abuse of a third party? Behaving indifferently for whatever reason, ok, hands tied etc, but actually “being indifferent”, I’m not sure if it’s assent but whatever that is, maximum props for having the stones to pull it out and wave it around.

[A long-term overseas resident asks...]

You can text security? Really?!
That's a great idea.

Aw shucks :))

No I wasn't condoning harassment. That is something I have had a fair share of and have learnt to stick up for myself. I was taught that if you remain honest, you will always win the moral high ground. and I…

I would hope Ms Morgan has had a serious talking-to today. She seems to have ... issues.

But Westpac Stadium ticket sales (rugby and The Phoenix) are tanking this year. Perhaps that’s focused their minds.

I read the lot earlier. It seemed about 2-1 supportive, perhaps a little more.

I'm not quite sure what Sofie was saying there, but I don't think she was saying harassment was okay. And as you noted, the perpetrators were kicked out, if belatedly. The park management…

I don’t know. When I…

Yes, but it's also not just how management saw it, but how it feels to be that person. When you're being verbally abused, your physical space invaded, and slurs thrown your way, and no one steps up…

So…

It's really simple, sometimes crowds are wrong.

Eden park management should know that. They should…

The two highest-rated (by far) comments on the front page are not supportive. Which I think is more indicative of positions on the matter.

There probably would have been a rerun of the 1979 Haka Party. This time round though, Eden Park and Talkbackistan would probably blame the victim.

But unless everyone else around Ms Spyksma was offended by the men's slurs, they would likely not have been kicked out.

The gulf between lack of offense and being in assent is vast & nuanced.

Me neither. But…

Eight years ago, Aaron Mauger gave a really good interview to Express, outlining exactly the inclusive perspective you’d want from a modern All Black, encouraging gay kids to play sport, namechecking Ian Roberts,…

Being indifferent, distracted (by I-don't-know a rugby test), practising non-confrontational behaviour, embarrassment, fear of public speaking, possessing insufficient English, politely not wishing to disrupt anyone-else's rugby watching, not having a…

I…

No. Silence is…

More seriously: WTF, Eden Park? Just who are they trying to attract to games? Or is it only about not losing what they…

First they came...
It is a very, very poor response from Eden Park, and deserves to be decried as such. Sadly, though, they will probably draw a lot of support from the usual talkback suspects and wave that around if challenged by cooler…

This. The response goes beyond just failing to condemn homophobic bullying, and into supporting it. "PC Police" is the kind of language these men would, I think, use themselves. It's the kind of…