[[http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0705/S00033.htm|Energy availability modelling raises crucial…

"Unfortunately we can't plan around what we don't have and don't know"

an oblique reference to rumsfeldian poetry, perhaps?

The Unknown
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are…

Model T Ford was a novelty that was never going to catch on

but unfortunately it did.
and we ended up with a trashed planet
a dead-end car culture
and petrol-heads causing moral panic.

er ... in case it wasn't obvious: I was taking the piss with my justification for going noocular – it's the sort of reasoning one sees in the MSM

Well, Nobody,back in the day nobody was extracting the urine while penning furious editorials about how electricity period was an unspeakable…

and, following the utube links on pg 12 from jon_knox I also discovered this one
whilst military grunts aren't noted for their…

Nobody said –
"This is an opprtunity for NZ to display it's technological advantages..."

Is Broad Band :

a) an essential part of our infrastructure
b) the group "When the Cats away"
c) All of the above – very dated and over hyped

Michael, you may or may not be right on that one, I dunno if I want to get into the 'Deputy Sheriff wants real weapons' argument, but…

The only saving grave may be ...

Good Freudian!

I further noted that "Quite a bit of what passes for the culture of the nation is really a reflection of the price and availability of energy. Cheap energy has given rise to a culture of physical dispersion, if not sprawl, coupled with a sense…

I agree that the traffic on the roads is worse than it was. SUVs are a real menace for bikes because they generally can't see the bike.

But it doesn't need…

me too! lmao@perversely cool. mine broke a drive shaft in the middle of blimmin' queen street. fortunately i had a tall handsome friend with me who…

Footnote: Neither my wife nor I drive to work....and we live on the shore – tell me about need.

Cars are choice.

my car. It is an extension of my household

its a plain fact humans LOVE cars

To whoever said 'driving is not a right', it is.

more convenient than public transport will ever be

people don't actually NEED great public transport

you're…

mind you, I was well served for female company before I bought it, so the hubcaps weren't such a matter of urgency.

i hate to break this to you guys, but no female is going to go out with you because of the size (or shape or shininess) of your…

My first and current car is a '90 FX-VS Corolla sans fake chrome hubcaps... mind you, I was well served for female company before I bought it, so the hubcaps weren't…

That's some freaky shit jon.

Yep...there I was thinking that soldiers/airmen would be making some effort to identify their targets in a meaningful way.....and it seems to be "yeah it's alive, so lets kill it". Staggering! I feel very naive though I realize there is very little context provided in…

Finn, missed commenting on your 'change your lifestyle' point. Having to deal with becoming a human horse…

How about ... love?

Hah! Just you wait until the angst-ridden teen flips you the "what do you know about anything?" eye-roll and flounces out of the room, then tell me everyone's in love with love. :)

Plus, the lad might get laid driving one of those. More likely than a '90 Corolla with imitation chrome hubcaps...

That raised section between the seats for the drive shaft and the gear stick on top of it makes things rather difficult...

I drove around a bit of Bali last year. While crazy, I think the drivers are actually quite skilled at avoiding impact. Plus I guess the cost of a smash in typical hours worked is a great deal more than NZ?

I hope you weren't the crazy bule that almost…

Plus, the lad might get laid driving one of those. More likely than a '90 Corolla with imitation chrome hubcaps..

At fifteen you are not considered prepared or responsible enough to make decisions about your own body. You can't have sex. You can't smoke. You can't drink.

yeah you can. Your'e just not allowed by law ;)

On the carrying shopping thing, do you live alone or just shop for…

Wow! When I worked a McDonalds all they gave us was half price. The breaks were the legal minimum and ruthlessly enforced.

But they were never wankers enough to send you…

Of course horse-ownership in the middle ages wasn't as widespread (for some parts of Europe at least) as car-ownership nowadays, but as I recall there were various incidents then that showed how useful* widespread horse-ownership by up-to-no-good youths (especially along with bows and arrows) could be...

John Wayne drove a…

most formula one racing drivers and all professional racing car drivers started out in the cart racing competitions when they were kids and progressed through the ranks. They didn't learn to drive when they were 20 and suddenly realised how awesome they were and turned pro.

Yet another boy racer,…

Kids can leave school and get a job at 15 and you're limiting their options even more than they have already done themselves by not allowing them to drive.

.

That would be 16 these days. We took away some of their rights a few years ago to do what they…

Victor, but is your assertion actually backed up? Are countries where people learn to drive earlier actually producing better drivers?

Nope, purely subjective and anecdotal... if reliable statistics about human behaviour and be obtained and analysed in any significantly useful manner things would be so much "better".

Throwing more anecdotal…

This is where we part ways. I think it does make a difference what other NZers want to do. Even teenagers. Shitting on country people for being country people isn't fair. Their needs are not irrelevant.

It's not shitting on country people for being country people, it's just stating that…

This is where we part ways. I think it does make a difference what other NZers want to do. Even teenagers. Shitting on country people for being country…

Yup. Won't it…

The mechanical, muscle-memory skills of driving safely within the realm of legality are not particularly hard to learn for somebody at any age. They take some time and experience, but…

At the moment we set legal limits on a bunch of activities at a range of ages, with driving arguably one of the lowest. Yet it's also probably the most dangerous of the lot. What's the rationale?

What about this line of reasoning:

Given that the majority of roads in…

Finn, you were on a partially comical point that people with kids shouldn't live in Taranaki because it limits their options and makes it hard for us city folks to legislate against kids driving. I'm saying the argument scales. People shouldn't live in Auckland for the same reason.

Which is…

Bugger it, that link didn't work

http://bldgblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/great-streets-campuses-and-pedestrian.html

The need to establish eye contact…

You're on drugs aren't you?

For gods sakes, I'm a secondary school teacher. How the hell else do you expect me to get through the day! Actually today I am home suffering from dizzy spells. Is it possible to get lost in cyberspace and never find your way out? Where…

It has the device where you push a button and sound is emitted where people are talking, sometimes I put a plastic token into it and I can listen to cooler sounds.

You're on drugs aren't you?

I mention these grim details, because as from tomorrow, I'm…

I doubt you can pick one thing (not vital to survival like breathing) that all humans love.

How about ... love?

Curse you Brown and your keen insight!

Yeah, I like Top Gear a lot

The weird thing is, I don't. I find Jeremy wassisname to be the most annoying…

Not that I want to drive shit cars. Just that a 1999 Mazda Capella seems quite adequate.

I've always seen cars the same kind of way. As long as it's reliable I really don't give a stuff. A kid that can put their bike chain back on knows about as…

Which is…

I like cars for their form and grace when assembled by mastercrafts people in much the same way I like art, architecture and good food. but i don't care what gets me from A to B (with all due environmental concerns, selah)

Yeah, I like Top Gear a lot, and…

Also, at Bali speeds I suspect more accidents…

Finn, your argument can be extended to say that noone should live in NZ.

I don't think teenagers needs are irrelevant at all. They are exactly as relevant as yours, probably more so because they have to live here longer.

I don't think any of that stands unless you put…

Drunk as guy crashes into the ditch in front of my parents place, can't stand up, trying to get back on his bike to hoon off. I…

If we did it might actually start to appear.

There are some areas that get pretty bad congestion in the mornings and…

See? There you again Tom Beard – "the more chance we'll have of building sustainable cities." You are (now its my turn to use the phrase du jour) conflating sustainability with what sort of transport options work best for a small city, and what people want.

I've never conflated sustainability…

Heather, I bet the people who have to drive you around don't see it that way.

Very bad assumption. When I lived in towns & smaller cities I biked. In Wellington/London/Auckland I've taken public transport and walked. Nights on the town I take a taxi, as will most of my driver…

Someone mentioned guns earlier.
Why doesn't the gun licence extend to competence?
An annual shooting test to ensure the duckies are dispatched in one…

Sustainability and convenience are…

I doubt you can pick one thing (not vital to survival like breathing) that all humans love.

How about ... love?

Finn, it was actually a diss on Russell.

Right. That's it – I'm leaving. Oh. Hang on ...

Somebody else's problem until then? I had plenty of mates who expected Mr Taxi Man to keep them in their unlicensed bliss, but eventually they wised up.

Amazing assumption you make: the whole point of it was that I didn't need a car to live most of my life, so…

Not because of other passengers (hardly ever had a problem with them in Auckland…

I don't think teenagers needs are irrelevant at all. They are exactly as relevant as yours, probably more so because they have to live here longer.

Of course there's the question of maturity. But personally I…

Somebody else's problem until then? I had plenty of mates who expected Mr Taxi Man to keep them in their unlicensed bliss, but eventually they wised up

A friend of the family maintained (in the 1960s) that it was far cheaper to take taxis everywhere (everywhere), than to own a…

its a plain fact humans LOVE cars?

Were you trying to be funny?

Coz that is just a dumb statement. As Tom points out "Humans" don't love anything. I doubt you can pick one thing (not vital to survival like breathing) that all humans love.

I like cars…

Simon, heh, that puts it in perspective. A place where people ride motorbikes without helmets all the time, and famous for lawless driving, has similar death rates. My experience of driving in Thailand was similar. Bangkok seemed crazy till…

Being able to get around isn't really a panacea. It's kind of basic.

Right, but that's something you factor into a decision to move to a particular place. As in, I don't live in Wanaka. Not because I have any dislike of the place or because I think Wellington is…

Your right/privilege point is lost on me. All rights are also privileges. All rights can also…

(Which begs the question – why don't more of them leave?)

If memory serves, some commenter on Kiwiblog said earlier that in fact, 1 in 4 Kiwis do leave.

So it must be true!

My first car was a 1974 Austin Mini – british house green (ie I think it had been painted with green house paint from Britan).

Great little car, more like…

BTW, road death rates in NZ are not way out of line with other countries. We're about the same per km as Germany or the USA. Given that we have pretty dodgy roads, I'd suggest that means that NZ driving behaviour isn't all that bad really.

Actually it's not much…

Somebody else's problem until then? I had plenty of…

People forget what a life-transforming event getting your own car is when you are 15 or 16, but I don't.

Maybe it would have been, but I didn't bother at that age (and I lived in a part of Christchurch without much public transport – it was just a given…

Hence:

"People forget what a life-transforming event getting your own car is when you are 15 or 16, but I don't. I had the first car in my social group, and it was fantastic. We were free…

To whoever said 'driving is not a right', it is. Like sex, duck shooting and loud music. In a society ruled by law, everything that isn't…

What's your message to kids in rural Taranaki who'd like to go to a movie or enjoy a social life? "Get fucked"?

Hey, pretty much. Must be that damn convent upbringing again, but am I the only person who finds 99% of the teenage boys of my acquaintance bewildering, often…

(Don't stop though Russ. Each to their own. To me the roar and PSCHH of a passing ricer is music. Bad music, sometimes. But sometimes it's pure art.)

I can't argue with that, but only because I've been known to listen to stuff that most people would consider a lot…

I like my car. It is an extension of my household, a comfortable familiar place…

Sure you can improve any city.…

How could you forget the Ford GTO?!?

But I'm much more of a hotrod kind of guy.

because what they're doing is what the grownups do. drink, drug, fuck, fight, and drive like a fucking arsehole.
I'm ashamed to say that I read this and my first reaction was to get a little depressed about my lack of social life.

Ah, but here online you can be…

I'm also surprised you lived. All that biking is waaay more dangerous than doing it in a car. Wobbling around exhausted in the wet at night with no traction, weak…

Holland is cool, but it's flat, small and well populated, and has been urbanized for several hundred years. Their suburbs aren't like ours, because they don't have the space for it, and cars weren't even invented when their town planning had pretty much set…

(Don't stop though Russ. Each to their own. To me the roar…

has The Bypass settled down yet? Is it yet possible to cross town in anything near approaching the time it took before the bypass was built?

It seems to be back to pre-bypass levels, at least from casual observation from the sidelines.

Nope. Not down our way (Tasman St).

We've…

The way I see it, learning not to kill yourself is a part of growing up and you can do it so many more ways than driving a fast car that it's pointless to try to filter out that side of it.

And the harsh comment that would…

has The Bypass settled down yet? Is it yet possible to cross town in anything near approaching the time it took before the bypass was built?

It seems to be back to pre-bypass levels, at least from casual observation from the sidelines. I'm not sure that there's been any actual…

"That reads a little bit like "if you don't like the way things are, you can get the hell out of here", but I'll try not to read it like that."

Heh...soz. Yes it does. But there is a germ of wisdom in the saying. Sounds to me like…

Finn, perhaps it's on par with liking NZ music? Heh, I kill me.

I'm not sure if that was a diss on NZ music or on me for dissing general standards of NZ musicianship! Be more specific in your insults, man!

(Assuming the latter, I'll say one thing: NZ does…

However I've learnt a lot from this…

I should point out that my first car was a Morris 1800

That's a big engine for a little car isn't it? One thing that struck me when I got the Mazda, was how much engine cars have these days, I mean, if I opened up the bonnet of the…

But now, Chargers are just for nostalgic driftarz and American dreamarz (in the style of Need 4 Speed…

I'm 34 and I still don't have my licence. I turned out fine, never hurt me any!

Get on it Heather, someone has to start the Grrrl Racer problem!

It handled alright so long as you had a bootload of firewood in the back.

blaming these kids for the things they get up to, because what they're doing is what the grownups do. drink, drug, fuck, fight, and drive like a fucking arsehole.

I'm ashamed to say that I read this and my first reaction was to get a little depressed about my lack…

Just wondering – I've found it a lot quicker taking the longer but more scenic route around…

Not for everyone, sure. I dare not mention your age, but I'm kind of thinking a Ford Anglia would have been a bitchin ride when you were impressionable, and mate, that's just not the same as what kids get these days. It's like comparing a ZX81 to a Playstation.

Ahem.…

Yip.

As Janis Joplin sang: "Freedom's just another word if it isn't freedom too".

[ends lunch break having made the worst contribution to the thread]

a great big trench being driven through one of the oldest and formerly most interesting neighbourhoods of the city

Tom, it's not cars that drive great big trenches through interesting parts of cities...

It's urban planners & local politicians!

It's just silly to say that it is the end of national super. Possibly, it might make it easier for some future political party to eliminate or abolish super at some distant future point but I doubt it. If they tried withing the next 40 years retirees (who…

A Mustang is probably the coolest yank car ever. You might be a bit shocked how weak it seems now, though.

I bet – and I'd be torn between wanting an old one or a new one. But I'm not really a car person (or anything with a motor actually).…

And sorry man, you are being a snob. Bad enough to be stuck in Taranaki, but to have some dorklander ban your wheelz? The bitterness.

Terence, freedom from and freedom to? Takes me back to my varsity…

But we are so far from being Europe it's not funny. Both physically, demographically, culturally and in terms of development.

But we don't have to be (apart from physically, of course). Parts of NZ already have half-decent density and half-decent public transport infrastructure, and [[http://wellurban.blogspot.com/2007/05/distant-hills.html|where that is the case, people…

Ford Anglia would have been a bitchin ride when you were impressionable

Well, speed isn't everything. My first car was a very old war torn Escort Mk1 whose suspension worked intermittently. When I hit 50mph on the M4 life got very interesting.

I've owned exactly one Euro car and one American one. Both were total lemons. Since then it's been jap after jap. I can't decide which was ultimately more fun…

No; freedom is to be able and to be allowed.

[/ranting about pet peeve].

But with that said, in NZ it does seem to be something that you need, at least in most areas of the…

it makes ... thousands of loved-up kids at dance parties ... look remarkably benign

heh heh – I wonder if/when the politicians would be prepared to legalise E in return for P being gone forever??

Speaking of loved up kids – I must pick mine up from school now

I hope you're not bitter on my Euro car rag.

Not at all! Most of my life I've never even owned a car. First one I bought was a Fiat 500 because I had designs on the vendor's sister (lucked out, and the car was rarely roadworthy). The next car…

Not for everyone, sure. I dare not mention your age, but I'm kind of thinking a Ford Anglia would have been a bitchin ride when you were impressionable, and mate, that's just not…

I have waited most of my life for the chance to quote an eagle's song on the interewebby thing

With regard to the Eagles I stand with Jeff Lebowski I'm afraid.

I also love driving. I hate commuting and won't do it. But since this thread is about boy racing, I feel obliged to point out the the extremely obvious fact that cars are choice.

Don't really get it. Jolly handy, fer sure. But as a main event in life, whatever…

I luuurrrve the public transport options available in Wellington and wish there were more. The same goes for Auckland (except for the "luuurrrve" part). And Mayors can have an…

I have waited most of my life for the chance to quote an eagle's song on the interewebby thing. In NZ Music month. My work here is done.

Good comments Rebecca. I think you're articulating why things are a little different now from when we were kids. Sure, there was booze and a bit of dope but that was it. And there weren't 200+ people gathered at each 'event'.

I think what Rebecca did was knowledgeably articulate a…

I get what you're saying, which is pretty…

Andrew llewellyn, hey it's no worse than the Holden painted as an Australian flag I saw cruising weakly past me last time I was in Sydney.

hey Ben, I'm not passing judgement – I LOVE that site. Just demonstrating to Hadyn that I know what he means..

BTW – most…

To me, freedom is to being allowed.

Yes but freedom is also abused by knuckleheads

Good luck with transforming NZ into that. See you in 50 years.

Holland is cool, but it's flat, small and well populated, and has been…

To me, freedom is to being allowed.

I'm not quite sure how to parse that. If you mean that freedom is defined as being allowed to do whatever you want, then isn't an environment that forces you to spend thousands of dollars on owning, running, storing and learning to drive…

To me, freedom is to being allowed.

I fully 'get' that what's happening now isn't much…

...but met the same obsession with torque-bands.

NZ driver laws are predicated on the idea that a 15 year old farm hand need a liscence to be able to drive a tractor down a rural road. That's why our driving age is so low, and over the years no politician has been game to change that

Yep,…

Have you ever seen boy racers interviewed on TV? They really don't tend to come across well.... ....They appeared so stupid as to make me fear for our future as a nation...

Maybe so. But maybe the problem is that it was on TV – Are the kids interviewed on…

Yes ricers have a different style. I had to spend 2 hours removing all the ridiculous and non-applicable stickers off my first MR2. It…

there once was a girlie from auckland
whose compatriots thought it was dorkland
she went overseas, to escape this disease ...

... and found that all the bloody kiwis in london still had the same…

you know the crappy lowered Honda Civics with big exhausts

yep, I know

It doesn't. It dissuades owning an overpowered vehicle because the premiums are really high, especially for kids. Dangerous driving is possibly slightly encouraged by insurance, until you have an accident and the premiums jack up…

Hell Mikey Havoc is still a youth in local body politics

Hell, Mikey Havoc is still a youth in Mikey Havoc's mind too!!

Is it in their DNA?

Y?

that's a chromosone dude.

if my investment tanks, and the Cullen fund tanks...And if the property market tanks...If my elected kiwisaver fund folds

Also answers to the name of 'lucky'".

Seriously though, I think you have painted an act of God scenario.

Long term, the chances of two out of three of your investments…

I remember the ones they had on Holmes, they made Banks look intelligent.…

Is it in their DNA?

Y?

Kia kaha to any who have lost loved ones.

That he wants to is partly my fault, since he got wood every time he got into any of my sportscars.

My first thought was "Eww – I hope he's not that kind of uncle" but I know what you're saying Ben! :)
When I took my 8y.o. nephew for a…

The Government isn't assuming the risk. If you choose the wrong Kiwisaver vehicle and it breaks, you lose.

I keep asking this and keep not getting an answer: how is this different from right now?

Right now, if my investment tanks, and the Cullen fund tanks, I can rely on…

I agree that 16 is too young for people to be in sole charge of a vehicle. It's something I've always been uncomfortable about – even when I was a teenager (was why I didn't go for my license until I was in my 20's -…

I seem to remember in the Old Days that Helen Clark didn't come across well either. TV reporting can definitely pick the worst in people, if they want to.

The problem is that…

What Haydn said. I've been really stunned at the total absence of actual young people from any of the media coverage of these Big Wig Pow Wows in the last week.

Have you ever seen boy racers interviewed on TV? They really don't tend to come across well. I remember…

Sorry to drag you into that RB, my point wasn't to slag you (or upset you).

I am not easily upset in such situations ;-)

Notwithstanding the efforts you make to check your facts before asserting them).

I try and find them out first, and then assert them. Takes longer…

Steady on...

Sorry to drag you into that RB, my point wasn't to slag you (or upset you) .... I was merely bemused/annoyed that Rogerd seemed to think I had commited some sort of PA herecy by i] failing to read your post, and ii] failing to accept/understand what you'd…

Secondly, turning to younger people, the behaviour modelling of parents is important. If they treat the roads as if they own them then a) its antisocial and b) don’t their kids get the idea that this is OK behaviour?

Certainly when Dad owns a V8 Commodore and complains that enforcement…

Unfortunately some people die, but we are working on that.

We could be doing a lot better, though. Compare us to the US, which generally has lower per-capita fatality rats in most states, and yet has many of the problems we do (sprawl, poor public transport).

It seems to me there are strategies from the drink driving campaign to apply to antisocial driving. By antisocial driving I mean people that treat the roads as their own personal drag strips, rally courses or cross country challenges.

Firstly it needs to…

Do what I did. Ride a bike all over Auckland and ride the buses.

I realise there are a number of Hard news readers who seem to have difficulty grasping this fact but: not every lives, or wishes to live, in Auckland. Horror!

"People shouldn't live in Taranaki".

But then,…

Whilst I agree that Holland is one switched on place (went there a couple of years back), I really can't see any of their solutions apart from trains working here. I cycled…

If kids get succesfully stopped from hooning around in their own cars, what's going to happen? Chances are they might start stealing cars and racing those – cheaper than building one and risking getting it confiscated.

Joy riding and hooning in your own car a two different levels of lawbreaking.…