A bit too soon to be dusting off the Cromwell quote, but still good for a giggle, as novice leader learns Media Lesson One: the tape recorder is not your friend.

That's astonishing. The man's a fool. Either that or too spineless to exercise authority over his senior MPs.

I…

So John Key is in trouble on this one ...…

"I did agree to consider such a proposal – in fact I made such a proposal to Annette King – but in the end made a firm…

I am always very impressed when the likes of David Farrar and Idiot Savant demonstrate just how easy it is to participate and get your ideas a hearing, particularly if they are well thought out and presented.

Indeed, Don – and if you're not going to use the participatory mechanisms…

That's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Correct. This is a governance issues. Essentially we are shareholders in NZ with 1 voting share each. Every three years we get to change the board.

We really don't have the time or knowledge to deal with the minutia of the…

That's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Where as I find the idea of a full participatory democracy to be what we should be aiming for. We're a small enough country to actually manage the numbers but there are a few things which would need to be sorted…

How about a larger bureaucracy, minimum elected reps, & all votes by referendum? A true Democracy, power directly to the people. The bureaucracy would be there to inform the public on the issues to be voted on.

and what would you have in lieu of select committees and public submissions to…

How about a larger bureaucracy, minimum elected reps, & all votes by referendum? A true Democracy, power directly to the people. The bureaucracy would be there to inform the public on the issues to be voted on.

That's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

We might just find they rep the motivated minority.

Why trust people to vote for Bozo the Clown but not directly on the issues?

Rich
Dilute, I would rather wash Politians clean away.
How about a larger bureaucracy, minimum…

Is there any movement…

Just like a i know a pile who vote ACT to slide National away from the left

I didn't – I voted Green because, in short, they're the only electable party on the liberal/left side of Labour. I agree with about 75%…

I'm not saying there is a connection, but Sue Bradford's use of the Green Party as her personal vehicle is not the kind of carpooling that we should be encouraging.

I don't buy that. At least she's not passing laws which benefit herself, and/or her friends/business colleagues. Not all MPs…

I'm not sure I'm thrilled with a regulatory body which would likely be dominated by a country who sold it's independence in medical matters ...

I know what you're saying, but I really don't think the point should be overplayed. We already operate joint food standards with Australia, and that…

Er, could it be that Labour knows it can rely on the Greens when the chips are down? And it can almost rely on the Maori Party too? Perhaps I've watched too many…

There seems to be a "They shouldn't be worried about that " meme that surrounds the Greens whenever there's some kind of policy win.

After the last election there was some commentary to the effect that National was failing in MMP because various people in key positions (McCulley, Bassett, et…

The risk is that New Zealand will end up paying for "Monkey Smeg" and stuff that works until we figure out the difference.

Certainly, 81stcolumn, and I didn't mean to come across as being glib about the real hucksters and snake oil salesmen who are out there preying on desperate…

There is no such thing as alternative medicine, there is medicine that works and medicine that doesn't. If it works, it incorporated in medicine. If it doesn't, its called quackery, and Alison Rowe has some for you to buy. Unlabelled.

Oh if only........

CAM (Complimentary and Alternative Medicine) is the…

Not according to the website you linked to, but then you knew that, you were just being mischevous ...

Is this the Greens answer to P as well?
Prohibition isn’t protecting our kids.
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/other6572.html

Brough to you by Jeanette, Nandor, & Sue K

Eleanor, I'm very sure I'd have felt differently if you'd been fronting the campaign rather than Christine Rankin and Sue Kedgley. I actually learned something from your contributions, and adjusted my view accordingly.

That's all I could ask! :o)

Now that pesky Bill is dormant, I'm going to take a…

faux philosophy of science bollox

come on kowhai, truth is science and science is truth. get with the program!

なんちゃって。

You can learn more about Jeanette here:
http://www.greens.org.nz/people/fitzsimons_j.asp

There is no such thing as alternative medicine, there is medicine that works and medicine that doesn't. If it works, it incorporated in medicine. If it doesn't, its called quackery, and Alison Rowe has some for you to buy. Unlabelled.

No I don't want to start a conventional vs. alternative argument here.

Well, I don't either – because, on level, it comes down to a similar place for me as the whole party pill debate. If you're really chuffed at the thought of ingesting powdered monkey smeg or drain clearer…

the Green's basic hypocrisy over this issue. The line for GM was don't use until proven safe as far as I can gather.

I'm not trying to defend an apparent hypocracy, but (hahaha, I knew you'd like that "but")...

the GE debate concerned the potential release of novel organisms into…

I just don't think that's fair Russell. Researching and interpreting this bill was all-consuming. Have you read it yet?

Eleanor, I'm very sure I'd have felt differently if you'd been fronting the campaign rather than Christine Rankin and Sue Kedgley. I actually learned something from your contributions, and adjusted my…

I think it's partially the way the campaign was waged – basically the approach was to bag the Bill and generate support for defeating it rather than promote a better alternative.

Exactly. It was wholly destructive, hysterical and contradictory.

I just don't think that's fair Russell. Researching and interpreting this…

I suppose this is one of the reasons that I desperately want the Greens to be part of the government – to move them out of opposition, where FUD is a constant temptation, and into a role where they can sink their teeth into some proactive policy delivery.

I should…

This speech on vaccination she gave in 2004 gives me the creeps.

Yep, thanks Sue for helping.

This speech on vaccination she gave in 2004 gives me the creeps. She chucks in any old fear she can lay her hands on, including claims that are specifically debunked by our own Ministry of Health. I think it's reckless.

I suppose this is one of the reasons that I…

I think it's partially the way the campaign was waged – basically the approach was to bag the Bill and generate support for defeating it rather than promote a better alternative.

I think that goes for both sides of the debate, as presented by the media – on the one…

Interesting perspective Don. Food for thought.

I think it's partially the way the campaign was waged – basically the approach was to bag the Bill and generate support for defeating it rather than promote a better alternative.

Exactly. It was wholly destructive, hysterical and contradictory. Kedgley's repeated invocation of the US FDA's model as some sort…

You can't be pure as the driven snow and put out that sort of shit at the same time.

Hence my comment about it being akin to a gloat-a-thon. There's no need for these kind of media releases, especially when Morning Report are doing a nice job of it for…

I think Sue could have more successfully promoted the fact that the Greens were pro-regulation. "Anti-Bill" could be conflated with "anti-regulation", as is quite plainly demonstrated on this forum.

Yes. The rhetoric I heard was of the "stop attacking our enlightened naturopaths!" variety. Granted, considering the fine state of MSM…

Maybe that makes me politically naive but I can live with that.

It really depends on what you think the main agenda should be. If it is anti-smacking, the right to sell quack medicines, votes for 16 year olds, repeal of the foreshore legislation, anti-vaccination then you are certainly not…

That, folks, is in one sentence why everyone finds the Greens, more than anything else, just plain irritating.

I hereby invite you to use your power of Omniscient Generalisation for Good and not Evil by joining the Greens to help us lower our Irritation Factor.

Or maybe we'll just get…

and all the ad hom attacks on Kedgley are really boring and pointless. does anyone want to provide non-urban-legend evidence re: Kedgley and water?
(an email reply apparaently from someone in Kedgley's office saying: "I know Sue would be absolutely supportive of the…

The point isn't that the Greens are wrong, the point is where they and their supporters and potential supporters want to spend political capital. That's not a bottomless bucket.

Well I suppose you do have a point about spending political capital, it might not be the best thing strategically. I…

I am interested to know why people who generally support the greens have a parting of ways on this issue.

I think it's partially the way the campaign was waged – basically the approach was to bag the Bill and generate support for defeating it rather than promote a better…

Wow, an annoyingly smug politically correct sentence (Aotearoa/New Zealand) that manages to also contain xenophobia (restrictive trans-Tasman), and a dissembling use of language (dietary supplements)…

Watching some Labour luvvies get apoplectic over the fact that the Greens have got spine, principle and the numbers is really quite entertaining, but it's time to inject some facts into your jaded diatribes.

Didn't notice much apoplexy on the list. Disappointment in Green's political management maybe.

The fact is…

No, it's because she's stark raving bonkers. But she's not the only one in the House, so she feels at home there.

So, via hysteria on the one hand (and yes I do think that's a fair description of some of Kedgley's rhetoric)

Does she ever do anything ELSE?

Sure, the Bill would have imposed order on what is presently the Wild West. No arguments…

Will you also be the first to record your own satirical voiceover to such video?

Don't you dare. The last thing I need is a reason to watch Parliament.

Live dangerously

I believe I am the first blogger to capture and re-use video from the Parliamentary webcast

Will you also be the first to record your own satirical voiceover to such video?

=)

"I guess I count myself as an "urban techno-greenie" . . ."

Sounds like what's known in Australia as a plastic wombat.

That's not a phrase I've come across before. I think I get the vague gist of it (perhaps implying a level of hypocrisy), but would you care to…

Now in OurTube

A regulatory overhaul would be good but I don't think this was it.

Maybe I am missing something.......
I am really interested in what people…

And if you're right, and the Green Party leadership are that far out of touch with their own membership and support...

I suspect there's truth in what Don's saying. I'm of Tom Beard's ilk, & I'm a card-carrying member of the Greens. I'm gradually getting pretty pissed off with both Sues'…

I'm personally more concerned that Key does have an agenda, he just won't say what it is. If he doesn't, and is happy to leave it to watching the polls, great.

Hear hear, Ben. If there's one thing I learned from Nicky Hagar's book (other than the risks of broad…

Actually I think that was Steve Crow's plans, for the official launch of his Mayoral campaign at Erotica

All you seem to want to say is that politicians are equally snide, snippy and hypocritical.

Um, no – because I'm not really interested in being that glibly cynical. And if you're right, and the Green Party leadership are that far out of touch with their own membership and support,…

I am not sure what your points are actually as you haven't addressed any mine. All you seem to want to say is that politicians are equally snide, snippy and hypocritical.

Er, so what?

I guess I count myself as an "urban techno-greenie" . . .

Sounds like what's known in Australia as a plastic wombat.

http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/Visiting/LiveBroadcast/

The QuickTime stream comes through in the wrong aspect ratio and the audio is very quiet.

Viewed with the Flip4Mac Windows Media components the Windows Media stream looks gorgeous. The audio drifted out of sync but pausing then restarting the…

Now, back to the Greens. Aside from the rash of contradictions in their various stances, those with not such short memories will recall that during the last election they were polling below…

You can't tell me that headline wasn't chosen deliberately.

Certainly not, Tom. Then again, your mileage may vary on whether the editorial board of the New Zealand Herald are people you'd trust to organise a gang-bang at a sex-addicts convention. Got to say this morning's editorial on the one city chestnut…

It is this kind of thing that makes me despair of party politics, when what I really want to vote for is a little of this and a smidgen of that and a mixed assortment of those things.

I think representative democracy is more to blame, and parties are just…

I'm afraid the Green's commitment to science and technology is only utilitarian when it comes to argument — they…

I think what you really mean is that Key and his party are seen as a joke by people who are never ever going to vote for them anyway – probably not something their strategy advisers lose much sleep over.

Certainly not. Just as I don't think Helen Clark has…

I think there is a developing theme that Key will U turn at the whiff of a bad focus group.

That might be one of the good things about him. It's only something to sledge National for because they *pretend otherwise*. They like to project the idea of strong decisive…

I see Cullen is emphatically claiming that Key and Tim Groser came to Labour looking for a compromise because of their concern about the impact on relations with Australia if the bill tanked — but Ryall sank it.

LOL... Well, to get all Mandy Rice Davies for a moment, he…

Has anyone heard a broadcast journalist put that contradiction to Sue Kedgley?

NO, and this is what I've found most irritating with regard to media coverage on this issue (with yourself a notable exception, Russell)

Actually, I remembered that I did put that question to Jeanette Fitzsimons way back when…

Yeah, but if the polls are driven by the news media's compliant reporting of Kedgley and Rankin's conspiracy theories, don't we have a problem here?

Perhaps. That's a big IF though. If polls had real direct power, people might be more careful what they said to them.

Has anyone heard a broadcast journalist put that contradiction to Sue Kedgley?

NO, and this is what I've found most irritating with regard to media coverage on this issue (with yourself a notable exception, Russell) – plenty of airtime has been given to the opponents of the bill (and I…

And let's not forget this is the woman who wanted to ban DHMO, dihydrogen monoxide. She's a well-meaning fool.

Hehehe – I still get the odd person calling me at work wanting to know why we haven't banned this terrible substance – they're usually all up in arms and are…

Key's inability to take a policy position on anything is starting to cause that most fatal of political consequences – being taken as a joke.

You might be deep into 'nobody I know voted for Nixon' territory here. Key and his party are still wildly popular suggesting that their rather…

Quite so. The Greens' stand on GMOs was that they had to be "proven safe". But when it comes to something in their backyard, the onus of proof has been neatly reversed.

Kedgely is the main reason I avoided voting green for so long. I guess I count myself as…

It's definitely ironic. Key has basically learned from Clark to sit in the middle and read the polls.

I see Cullen is emphatically claiming that Key and Tim Groser came to Labour looking for a compromise because of their concern about the impact on relations with Australia if the bill…

Dr Pippa Mackay explained on Morning Report what this means for the approval of all new medicines: longer delays as Medsafe, which had been anticipating the joint trans-Tasman regulator, struggles to keep up, higher costs, and fewer new medicines approved.

It is the same logic supporting the TB that Jim…

Tom: I find it rather ironic that when Clark does a 'U-turn', or rolls over/sidelines her front bench to 'front foot' a politically sensitive issue, it's a sign of strength; when Key does he's a flake, at best, or a two-faced arsehole with some secret agenda.

It's definitely ironic. Key…

The country that throws a guy in jail on a political whim *after* a court decides to free him? Sorry Craig, no such thing.

Which has precisely what relationship to joint regulation as proposed in the Therapeutic Products and Medicines Bill?

Is it just me or does the Green's current goal seem to be to take down this Government in a sort of death by 1000 cuts approach?

No, Don – it's not just you. according to NRT, that's exactly the line Chris Trotter floated in his Independent column last week.…

No, its just the social engineering tail trying to wag the dog and in its arrogance pissing the entire country off.

Well, now that National has its victory, it might agree in a few months to a compromise...

But that would mean John Key changing his mind!

The problem is that unless any solution actually adopts the joint regulator proposal, NZ suppliers will have to go through two regulatory processes if…

– allow Maori to recover their ownership of the foreshore and seabed where appropriate

– legislate for access to a coastal strip everywhere there isn't a strong safety reason to prevent it. This would apply to iwi, to…

The country that throws a guy in jail on a political whim *after* a court decides to free him? Sorry Craig, no such thing.

National's constant U-turning (on the issue of new rules for press coverage in the house, on the Foreshore and Seabed) and Key's inability to take a policy position on anything is starting to cause that most fatal of political consequences – being taken as a joke.

Tom: I find it…

Tony Ryall and Sue Kedgley

Now there's a duo whose four hands on the health portfolio would make you think.

Is it just me or does the Green's current goal seem to be to take down this Government in a sort of death by 1000 cuts approach?

Ryall was just nasty, but that's no surprise.

And Copeland, well, the sooner he's gone, the better the place will be.…

This from a political entity that pontificated on the importance of public safety and environmental safety at all costs during the GE debate. Where is the precautionary principle now?

Quite so. The Greens' stand on GMOs was that they had to be "proven safe". But when it comes to something…

It is with disgust that I see what the Green Party has done to this Bill.

Any thought that the Greens were anything other than money grubbing selfish has to be banished now.

Of course they oppose a Bill that would require their own businesses to actually prove safety…

Surely the fault for any negative consequences rests more with those who drafted it ineffectively – rather than with the opposition parties who did what they're supposed to – i.e. oppose questionable legislation?

No, I don't resile from the hysteria word at all. She was completely over the top -…

So, via hysteria on the one hand (and yes I do think that's a fair description of some of Kedgley's rhetoric) and naked political calculation on the other, New Zealanders will suffer.

That's not entirely fair... the Bill failed because it had at least the appearance of being overly restrictive,…

National's constant U-turning (on the issue of new rules for press coverage in the house, on the Foreshore and Seabed) and Key's inability to take a policy position on anything is starting to cause that most fatal of political consequences – being taken as a joke.

Key certainly has his…

Kedgley, at least, genuinely opposed the bill on its content.

What the! This is the woman who wants stringent labelling, testing and certification of food, but is happy to have any old rubbish in "complementary" potions. Yesterday she was hammering away on non-approved ingredients in baby formula, when in her…

As for the Therapeutics…