Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: News media meets new media: Privileges and accountabilities

nzlemming

Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:57:18 +1300

Which is a problem, because there clearly (to me) seems to be a need to establish exactly what the link is between imagery and offending against children (and things associated with it.) Imagery created *through* offenses against children is one thing, but where do you draw the line with, frex,…

Lucy Stewart

Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:36:18 +1300

Those with money to spend tend to run screaming from the room if you approach the topic of child abuse imagery with anything other than a mainstream thesis, as they don't want a sniff of guilt by association.

Which is a problem, because there clearly (to me) seems to be…

nzlemming

Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:40:38 +1300

Someone needs to do a proper study on this, if for no other reason than that the media reaction would be epic.

I'd love to but there's a few issues, like funding. Those with a vested interest (e.g. LEOs and governments) are quite happy to continue as they are, convinced…

Lucy Stewart

Fri, 16 Dec 2011 01:25:27 +1300

Consequently, they tend to look askance at someone who has their home filled with ST paraphernalia – not so much guilty by association but clearly an indicator. I swear they were relating this to me very seriously though I can't swear they weren't pulling my leg just a little, having…

Steve Barnes

Thu, 15 Dec 2011 17:21:03 +1300

But then if there is nothing going on then it is just a precursor for something...
init?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4oAOwpdels

nzlemming

Thu, 15 Dec 2011 17:08:22 +1300

I...have to ask how you got from A to B in that sentence. What sort of odd views

Apparently, LEOs around the world find that many individuals who come to their notice for trafficking child abuse imagery also have a fondness for Star Trek, and they posit that it's the…

Lucy Stewart

Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:10:49 +1300

I see it with law enforcement all the time. For example, they’re convinced that child abuse imagery is a precursor to molestation simply because every molester has viewed the imagery first. (They’ve also got some very odd views about Star Trek, but that’s a different kettle of fish).

I...have to…

nzlemming

Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:18:37 +1300

But can internet culture be blamed for what he did?

There's an awful lot of people that can't tell the difference between causation and correlation. I see it with law enforcement all the time. For example, they're convinced that child abuse imagery is a precursor to molestation simply because every…

Lilith __

Thu, 15 Dec 2011 12:33:57 +1300

Any actual evidence of this?

Anders Breivik.

But can internet culture be blamed for what he did?

Kumara Republic

Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:39:45 +1300

Any actual evidence of this?

Anders Breivik.

Lilith __

Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:00:10 +1300

You’re still not going to immediately see the other person get upset and angry,

That’s what I was saying, upthread. Some people think trolling only happens if the perpetrators can hide their identities. But what I was trying to say (and I think Isaac and Russell were, also) is that…

Rich Lock

Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:12:33 +1300

I don’t think this has much to do with anonymity, it’s just as likely to happen on FB or some other place where people are easily identifiable.

Well, we can agree to disagree on that, in an atmosphere of mutual respect and understanding :)

FB may not be anonymous, but…

Isaac Freeman

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:07:28 +1300

If we could eradicate harassment and threatening behaviour, we would still be left with the question of how to build better online communities and more meaningful connections. That was all I was saying.

Fair enough. It sounds like you're thinking of a much lower level of nastiness than I was.

Islander

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:01:14 +1300

Also worth remembering that many of those who commit hate crimes often start out doing ‘less serious’ stuff like stalking, internet trolling etc.

Any actual evidence of this?

Biobbs

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:56:51 +1300

I don’t think internet trolling is analogous to the hate crimes, arson and murder, practiced by the KKK.

True, but a perfect analogy is perfectly useless. If one thing provides a frame for thinking about the other, that's all we can expect.

Also worth remembering that many of those who…

Lilith __

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:15:21 +1300

I do totally get the KKK analogy for the seriously nasty stuff. It’s just that (as I think I said in my first comment on this topic) the seriously nasty stuff is, at least in theory, illegal.

But what I was talking about was just people being moderately unpleasant to…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:02:37 +1300

David Shearer will make mistakes. He will make wrong calls. He will say things he will regret.

Ahh, but what if he doesn't? he will be unbeatable. Look out johnkey, Labour now has a real politician with real experience in real situations, not just a dollar dealer
MWAHAHAHA!!!.

Islander

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:41:30 +1300

Everything is complex in the airy chamber.

Nice!

merc

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:34:24 +1300

One man sub, if only, if only, and most surfers prefer above to below. At one point my relative was the youngest U-Boat commander in WW2, /gives away origins/, it's OK his first battle mission was to scuttle his U-Boat, an Italian one, oh the complexity.
Everything is complex in…

Rich Lock

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:11:02 +1300

"They were careless people, Tom and Daisy – they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together and let other people clean up the mess they had made."

Kumara Republic

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:56:26 +1300

What’s common is that the abusers believe that they’re unlikely to be held personally responsible for their behaviour. KKK members have to disguise themselves to achieve this, whereas online trolls are protected by distance.

However, I think the key point is the deindividuation of the recipient of the abuse.

And…

Sacha

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:51:23 +1300

Cousteu-m editors can be fraught

Ian Dalziel

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:47:08 +1300

we're all at sea...
...I’m more used to a different editing environment.
Moving from the One Man Sub to the Self Contained Ubiquitous Bracket Assembly system can take a little getting used to, just so long as the oxygen of discussion flows and the weight of one's arguments prevents the…

Isaac Freeman

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:13:35 +1300

I don’t think internet trolling is analogous to the hate crimes, arson and murder, practiced by the KKK.

True, but a perfect analogy is perfectly useless. If one thing provides a frame for thinking about the other, that's all we can expect.

And there are plenty of trolls who either…

merc

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:51:54 +1300

Yes true (Sacha proved this to me), I will try, it's just that i'm more used to a different editing environment.

Russell Brown

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:50:05 +1300

I think I do OK, thanks, I follow usual conventions and I hate using tags

It does make replies *way* easier to parse.

merc

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:29:09 +1300

I think I do OK, thanks, I follow usual conventions and I hate using tags. Thanks for the Fairfax note, I was kinda being ignorant on purpose you know, I am not a journalist, and you are reminding me that i should retire from trying to keep tabs on them,…

Sacha

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:25:58 +1300

Fairfax

publish the non-Herald papers

Sacha

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:24:56 +1300

Quote tags are our friend – see below the Response box

merc

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:56:47 +1300

Oh dear, now John with the counter balance, nicely hyperbolic too. Does Fairfax own Woman's Day perchance?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10773088
Choice quotes,

David Shearer will make mistakes. He will make wrong calls. He will say things he will regret.

Shearer will bring change by making the party less hostage to the political…

merc

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:44:25 +1300

What I find personally insulting is that I'm sure everyone concerned is reading every word, including dot points.
Classic lines,

But Joyce will not be able to create a new New Zealand Story on his own. It is important that Key lends his political leadership to the drive to enhance…

nzlemming

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:36:39 +1300

I wonder if Fran O'Sullivan actually reads the things she writes.

Lilith __

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:24:47 +1300

the attempts to intimidate via that anonymity

I'm not talking about actual harassment and threats, just obnoxious twatcockery. I think there's a lot more of the latter than the former, and it's more complicated to deal with.

merc

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:18:32 +1300

New media accountabilities,
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10773062
And so it begins again, subtle as a Woman's Day expose.

Rich Lock

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:17:51 +1300

Do football hooligans care about football? They seem to see it as an opportunity to get amped up and bash the crap out of other people.

Pretty much, yes. With the usual tribalism as the reason. Football hooligans, that is, not Kiwibloggers.

Rich Lock

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:16:55 +1300

I don't think internet trolling is analogous to the hate crimes, arson and murder, practiced by the KKK

Not in toto, no. But perhaps in the specifics of the anonymising aspects, and the attempts to intimidate via that anonymity.

There were a few articles recently about the #mencallmethings hashtag, and…

Lilith __

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:59:46 +1300

Kiwiblog commenter types who see others as cardboard cut-outs of their political stereotypes

With some of those people I wonder if they're really interested in politics or if they’re using it as the pretext to have a scrap. Do football hooligans care about football? They seem to see it as…

Russell Brown

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:54:54 +1300

Where’s the Commerce Commission on this? If this happened in America, the FCC would be onto them in a flash.

If this was America, the FCC would have waded in long ago.

Kumara Republic

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:52:03 +1300

I don’t think internet trolling is analogous to the hate crimes, arson and murder, practiced by the KKK.

Maybe not, but it’s the most obvious bricks-and-mortar analogy I can think of where nasty fuckheads do stuff they wouldn’t normally do unmasked. A few years back, the Aussie Blackshirts stalked and harassed…

Russell Brown

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:46:42 +1300

Because the internet deals in text, it’s easy to forget there are people out there writing it. We can get caught up arguing with the words, and forget about the person, who may not have expressed themselves well or clearly, and who may not mean what we think they do.…

Lilith __

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:36:41 +1300

I don't think internet trolling is analogous to the hate crimes, arson and murder, practiced by the KKK. Most internet trolling is just people being rude and inconsiderate. And there are plenty of trolls who either use their own names or whose identities are well known.

Because the internet deals…

Russell Brown

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:29:42 +1300

Govt may subsidise Igloo set top boxes
Something stinks here. Once again the evil hand of Joyce at work.
Why would we subsidise Sky Tv? we already have freeview, which was made possible by Kordia an SOE.

I sincerely hope that Drinnan has this wrong.

The Transitional Access Plan is…

Steve Barnes

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:03:33 +1300

‘hey, that’s doc simpson’s dog!’.

What a wonderful story. Like unknown corpses are referred to as “John Doe” we now have a name for all people who’s name has been suppressed, Doc Simpsons dog did it.
Anyhow. Slightly off topic but related…
[[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10773063 | Govt may subsidise Igloo set top boxes…

Rich Lock

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:17:55 +1300

In the pre-Internet age, they would have hidden behind things like white hooded robes.

I read an awesome true story recently where the teller grew up in a small US town. The local Klan marched down main street in their anonymising hoods as an intimidatory show of strength. An effect…

Kumara Republic

Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:42:25 +1300

But I absolutely agree on “people are real”. It seems to me that the most consistent abuse is perpetrated by authors who are incapable of seeing others – and particularly outsiders – in a discussion as real people.

Too true – it’s the classic modus operandi of trolls. They’re far…

Lilith __

Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:35:42 +1300

Something that can happen in RL groups is that past a certain point they become impermeable to outsiders — the shared history and references and in-jokes form a barrier that can't easily be crossed. But PAS regulars are a large and geographically scattered group with many kinds of networks and…

Russell Brown

Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:20:56 +1300

I’m sure it’s been said before, but the best online communities seem to be ones where a significant proportion of the people involved have met in person. Not that everyone needs to know everybody, but you need something to continually reinforce the idea that people are real.

What we've often…

Isaac Freeman

Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:27:11 +1300

WHAT?! Now you tell me.

Or... do I?

WOoooooooOoOoOooooo.

Lilith __

Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:14:35 +1300

people are real

WHAT?! Now you tell me.
;-)

But yeah, these are good points you make.

Isaac Freeman

Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:40:40 +1300

It would be so great if the PAS experience* could be replicated elsewhere on the web.

I'm sure it's been said before, but the best online communities seem to be ones where a significant proportion of the people involved have met in person. Not that everyone needs to know everybody,…

Ian Dalziel

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 23:13:55 +1300

regal neighsayers...
Kingdom for a horse
nicely observed and served...
:- )

Sue

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:24:52 +1300

i wonder what constitutes commercial activity? if you run ads does that count?

PAS experience* could be replicated elsewhere on the web.
was talking about this yesterday, metafilter is a good example.

Lilith __

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:11:53 +1300

we’d be responsible for everything published on our websites. If David Farrar wants the rights of access that pertain to proper journalists, he might finally have to accept more responsibility for comments published on Kiwiblog.

A big difference between the old and new media is the interactivity. And while it's…

Sacha

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:41:16 +1300

Download full paper from here.

merc

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:07:35 +1300

Exactly, regulatory bodies don't operate like the Courts do. Make the law the law and enforce it, make it transparent, make it cost effective /not going to happen, ever/.

Geoff Lealand

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:05:40 +1300

Some quite enlightened thinking from the Law Commission. The problem with the BSA is that the majority of complaints it receives are vexatious or downright banal. Then it takes an age to adjudicate on them. If there was to be a new body, it would have to wary of occupation…

Andre

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:00:07 +1300

I found that the regulatory bodies were basically an old-boys club and very Wellington-centric. As magazine publishers, my partner at the time and I took action against our competitor, the NZ Retailers Assn, over their misleading subscription figures which were used by them to help sell advertising into their magazine…

merc

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:31:21 +1300

"Wild West out there in cyberspace"
"Simon Power called for a review..."
"The Law Commission has come up with in the discussion paper..."
"...and it dwelt on problems that, while difficult to address at a practical level, seemed largely covered by existing law,..."

This cycle itself merits greater scrutiny, Simon…

Rich of Observationz

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:05:55 +1300

I'm fairly unconvinced that more regulation of "speech" is the answer.

The regulation of (wireless) broadcasters is, I think, predicated on their use of a scarce resource that gives them monopoly power to disseminate content. For as long as that state continues, something like the current situation is probably appropriate.…

Thomas Beagle

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:02:41 +1300

I'd say that the Law Commission report on Search & Surveillance was pretty damn bad.

Then there was the bit in the suppression review where they wanted to make ISPs responsible for blocking access to breaches of suppression orders.

Russell Brown

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:00:48 +1300

Kingdom for a horse

Oops!

Lilith __

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:55:12 +1300

Kingdom for a horse

reigning in the “Wild West out there in cyberspace”

James Butler

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:42:47 +1300

Serious question: have the Law Commission ever got it really, really wrong?

Silly question: could we not just outsource the writing of our laws to them?

Russell Brown

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:22:23 +1300

And with that, I have to go out for the afternoon. Please endeavour not to cause harm in my absence.

Public Address

Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:22:23 +1300

Discussion from blog post.