Pansy has always appeared charming to me, I don’t know how effective she has been, but certainly charming.
As such it seems the whole lot of them are crocked carpet…

And the “characters”, dear Lord. John Banks, Jim Bolger, Chris Fletcher, Graham Thorne, Simon Upton, Muldoon, Murray McCully, Jenny Shipley, Winston Peters, Bill Birch, Ross Meurant –

Pretty much what anyone would experience after buying a 2.5 kilo bag of spuds and contemplating the contents before submitting them to the…

For the Henryites out there who have a problem with the Anand Satyanands…

Apparently, there’s some people there who aren’t 100% white or something.. Who knew?

It’s almost as though this racially pure utopia she yearns for doesn’t exist or something.

I still find it funny that she insists she was defending “Australia’s” culture, then decided Britain was a better place to live,…

One hopes that he has to emigrate across the ditch and makes a new start in Qld, where his sort of views are considered acceptable.

Not sure that they'd welcome him with open arms, though. He may not be ethnically.... pure ... enough for Queensland.

Slightly off-topic, but did anyone…

...or is this merely a classic case of
two Wongs unmaking a Right?

too early?

And the "characters", dear Lord. John Banks, Jim Bolger, Chris Fletcher, Graham Thorne, Simon Upton, Muldoon, Murray McCully, Jenny Shipley, Winston Peters, Bill Birch, Ross Meurant – **we were not so much a caucus as a collection…

But he is not outraged by his former employer, although he acknowledges he was egged on to be outrageous himself.

I guess he knows provocation
is no longer a defence for
unsavoury behaviour.

“The governor-general is a good man and I didn’t say anything that implied he wasn’t a good man or that he wasn’t a New Zealander.

“‘Is he even a New Zealander’ is a cheeky way of starting a conversation about who might be next."

....I. I don't even.

(I know,…

EDIT: Snap, Sacha. Although I didn't think it needed any explanation, myself:)

[Henry] said he is disgusted at the fact that Bella, Sophie, 20, and Lucy 22, and his 81-year-old…

Did Lockwood Smith try to change the Travel Perk rules to stop the actions of Pansy Wong coming to public notice?

Yes, the timing seemed interesting though travel-independent disgruntlement likely had a part to play in Hodgson’s papertrail ending up in his hands. I wouldn’t be surprised if Auckland’s Chinese…

And why does there have to be a dominant male presenter and a softer, even ditzy, female co-presenter?

.. because producers believe (and ratings reinforce) that some audiences want their stereotypes reinforced over the cornflakes.

This is not good for the left! That they would even consider him for the job … He has been vile lately.
And why does there have to be a dominant male presenter and a softer, even ditzy, female co-presenter?

It’s certainly the present of political parties, if not the future. Having a woman on the top ticket, if not at the very top, is a good way to look sympathetic to female voters

I don't disagree that having women in top positions is a good thing.

But I'm dubious…

Gender-shared leadership is the future of political parties IMO. The Greens figured that out already.

I find the concept an interesting take on leadership, but I somehow doubt it's going to be "the future of political parties". Two reasons: co-leadership is hard, especially when it comes to questions like "who…

The idea of a left wing party sounds pretty alright to me. But it has to appeal to an audience that is beyond that of the whole ban-the-bomb-and-stop-the-tour crowd who attend Das Kapital discussion groups in university…

A new left wing party. Sounds good, I would vote for it.

But for a left party to have a half-pie chance of succeeding, it needs to broaden its appeal to beyond ban-the-bomb-and-stop-the-tour-types who attend Das Kapital book…

This is a bit out of left field I realise, but if they could get along, Bradford and Goff might team up well: one centre-left, one clear left.

You must be kidding. We'd have to spend the entire elctoral cycle whistling the theme from The Odd Couple, for one thing.…

Goff’s presence could work as a moderating influence on Bradford’s so called ‘extremism’ (anti-smacking). Goff is calm and experienced to Bradford’s passion and commitment to social justice. They could work well together.

Like gay rights, the rights of children is only an issue for the reactionary fringe. Key has demonstrated…

They're a long way apart on the political spectrum.

There are a number of people close to the Greens who would like to see Bradford start a proper social justice party

Apologies, I haven't read the discussion in full.

Ever since she left parliament I have considered Bradford a promising candidate to lead a revamped Labour Party. This is…

Or are you arguing, like the Chinese government, that the poor shouldn’t worry their pretty little heads about detention without trial for months on end, for example, as long as there’s rice in the bowl?

I'm not familiar enough with the domestic policy of Blair's government (which wasn't, in the…

I am still astounded that the Wellington Central electorate has decided to replace one of the last of the 'old guard' with a…

But then you knew that.

That’s right: it’s totally cool to leave the poor and disabled to suffer as long as you don’t start any actual shooting wars while doing so.

So, Lucy, did the wealth gaps in the UK narrow or widen under Blair?

Or are you arguing, like the Chinese government, that the…

And yet rolling back Labour's human rights abuses, more traction on electoral reform than Labour had after spending the 90s promising it, and no illegal wars started.

That's right: it's totally cool to leave the poor and disabled to suffer as long as you don't start any actual shooting wars…

Would there be much of a political market for a Lib-Dems type party?

The Fitzsimmons/Donald/Tancos Greens actually had that nailed down fairly nicely in many ways.

Oh, that's what they promise – but when they go into coalition, it turns into the social policy of Thatcher, and the economic policy…

Would there be much of a political market for a Lib-Dems type party? In other words, the social policy of Labour or the Greens, and the economic policy of Peter Dunne or Winston Peters.

Oh, that's what they promise – but when they go into coalition, it turns into the…

People who liked Labour but thought Hide was an effective local advocate engaged with his community who had done a good job as local MP. What's confusing about that?

The fact that it meant that Labour would lose power, by aiding ACT in passing the threshold. But yes, there is…

Hey, Ben.
Drop me an email, if you would, please.

Dropped.

I'd imagine there's a fair few Act voters who believe in the party's principles (economic liberalism, reduced taxes etc), but not in some of the places that Hide has taken it (perkbusting while taking perks, SST, 3 strikes crime law etc).

It strikes me as a pretty divided party.

Would…

WTF???

I'd imagine there's a fair few Act voters who believe in the party's principles (economic liberalism, reduced taxes etc), but not in some of the places that Hide has taken it (perkbusting while taking perks, SST, 3 strikes crime law etc).

It strikes me as a pretty divided party.

I find the ones who party voted Labour but gave electorate vote to Hide the most confused.

People who liked Labour but thought Hide was an effective local advocate engaged with his community who had done a good job as local MP. What's confusing about that?

They wanted ACT in parliament, but only if it could make 5% without a life-line?

They wanted ACT in parliament, but really didnt like Hide?

They just didnt understand how the system works?

Probably all of those. Also, there are people who might prefer a different local representative to Hide,…

And 11% of people who gave their party vote to ACT in Epsom, voted for someone other than Rodney!

WTF???

They wanted ACT in parliament, but only if it could make 5% without a life-line?

They wanted ACT in parliament, but really didnt like Hide?

They just didnt understand how…

Voted ... in the vain hope of keeping Rodney out of Parliament, but cast my party vote Green. I imagine there were a few of us in Epsom who went a similar way, or split Worth/Labour.

You might be surprised.

16% of Green Party voters in Epsom gave Rodney Hide…

Got to remember that a lot of people know that their electorate vote isn't necessarily going to come close to making a difference. So the link between the party and electorate vote might be a little frivilous.

I'd be one of those. Voted for Worthless Dick in the vain hope…

Checkout the leaglise dope party spliff their crossover equally with Greens & National. It's Labour where the really strong stuff is.

Bill & Ben have a strong National tendancy.

I'm conflustered at the Workers Party – National crossover, it's stronger than the Greens- National mutation.

heard anecdotally from someone who scrutineers in a well-heeled area that this is already the case to some extent, and there are many who vote for the NP candidate and party vote Green.

Here you can see that 16,549 people voted Green list & National electorate.

Whereas 74,330 voted Green list…

Well one out of four aint bad.

You should have given it Marx out of ten. Ahahahahaha fuck I'm funny.

I suppose to summarise, as a "centre left" supporter I think there would be more chance of having a centre-left government if the Green Party started grabbing votes off National, rather than just off Labour.

I was at a GP gathering over the weekend, and heard anecdotally from someone who…

'Course, if the Left gets in, you've still got a Labour government, every time.

Although not necessarily the reverse, huh?

Would it not be possible to allow a form of STV (just not voter driven), the reallocation happening according to a pre-election list provided by the party?

I wouldn't want the parties reallocating my party vote.

But having your MMP vote reallocated via a list (sorta like STV, but without…

The Super City election has brought into the light a political coalition of Pasifika, socially conscious Christian and anti-privilege bogan activists.
I can see McCarten and Bradford will be interested in such a new leftish beast

As bogans are, by definition, people who hit their kids, Sue Bradford's involvement can't…

Why? Because Stalin, the Shining Path, the Red Brigades, or the Great Leap Forward haven't put you off them yet?

No, but I see your point.

It is not unfair that the people who gave their party vote to the ACT party are represented by a group of MPs proportionate to the size of their vote.

An argument is that influence in parliament is not proportionate to the number of elected MPs.

If ACT (or UF,…

Act received markedly fewer votes than a party not represented in Parliament, New Zealand First...

ACT got 85,496 votes. New Zealand First got 95,356 votes. ACT got 5 MPs. NZF got enough votes for 5 MPs. This is not a particularly marked difference.

But I don't want Douglas in Parliament,…

Would it not be…

listening to matt marcaten and the chris trotter on the radio about the hobbit stuff made me wish that somebody could be left and tied into 'it's a class warfare issue' type discussion

*sniff*

Of course, the only reason you're defending the system is that one of your lot got in.

I think the system is askew. I'll leave it to better brains than mine to figure out how to fix it.

I remember attending a party workshop once where "delegates" spoke on the…

If we look at the Mt Albert byelection…

Well one out of four aint bad.
But anyway that's by the by anyway.

Losing a hard close fight is one thing — and on paper, Wellington Central was always going to be a seat we'd have to hustle hard to win. But being stabbed in the face by your own leader when you've been working your arse off is quite another.

If it's…

And I'd be the first to cheer if we discovered an hitherto unknown reservoir of Marxists.

Why? Because Stalin, the Shining Path, the Red Brigades, or the Great Leap Forward haven't put you off them yet?

It's pretty hard to see any how anyone can call themselves a democrat and…

And I'd be the first to cheer if we discovered an hitherto unknown reservoir of Marxists.

Well, we do, sort of. Some ended up with the Greens and others ACT. I think Steven Franks was last seen as a National candidate in Wellington, so maybe he is on his…

I wouldn't make a fuss about it no, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't remain unfair.

Of course, the only reason you're defending the system is that…

It's only unfair because you don't like him. That doesn't make the system unfair.

You make a fair point.

But ... Jim Anderton got two MPs off 1.7% of the vote in 2002, and his influence in the Labour government was commensurate with that. Act received markedly fewer votes than…

But I don't want Douglas in Parliament, and I think it's damn unfair that Epsom gets to put him there.

Oh, come on. Let's face it, if Jim Anderton's Progs got 3.85%, and on the back of Wigram hauled into Parliament an MP you loved but I didn't, I doubt…

But sensibly, we would implement the non-waiver of electorate seats by including these parties in the calculation, but not grant them any MPs beyond their electorate wins.

Thanks; that's at least a sensible way of doing it (though still IMHO the wrong solution).

Of course, one could always treat them the same as independents, and take it out of everyone else's representation so as to fix parliament at 120 seats. But this is more disproportionate than the current arrangements, and so not a positive move.

There are other options.

But let's start with…

I believe the right I/S is talking about is the right to have your vote count equally with everyone else. If National gets 20,000 more votes, they get an extra seat. If Bill and Ben get 20,000 more votes they don't.

Yes. But note that I care about party votes,…

if you give everyone who gets 0.00000001% of the party vote a seat...

Well, that's kinda stupid. Even under the craziest system imaginable, I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be having a Parliament where someone with 0.0002 votes gets a seat. Every voter would be personally represented by 4200 MPs.

I…

He doesn't. That's not what abolition of the threshold involves.

Except that his wording suggested that he considers any limitation on votes leading to representation to be an imposition on one's democratic rights. Which lead me to the conclusion that he did indeed mean that a single vote would be…

Is this a feature of of sainte-lague, that smaller parties can get in at about 0.5% of the vote? Should take more like 0.8 shouldn't it?

I'll (over-)simplify it a bit, but yes.

We have to divvy up 120 seats. If you were to work it out on strict percentages,…

Is this a feature of of sainte-lague, that smaller parties can get in at about 0.5% of the vote? Should take more like 0.8 shouldn't it?

Think of it this way: that 0.4% of the vote is (on straight division) 0.5 of a seat in a 120 seat Parliament. Which…

You'd need around 9000 votes or so to get a seat (factually, given recent turnouts).

This value is skewed by the fact the actual voting totals are filtered for those that get a seat or votes in excess of the threshold. I just re-ran the Sainte-Laguë formula against all parties,…

The legislated size of Parliament sets an obvious limit on democratic representation. We have 120 MPs. And as Graeme points out, using St Lague that sets an effective minimum threshold, in the extreme case, of around 0.4%…

You'd need around 9000 votes or so to get a seat (factually, given recent turnouts).

I've looked at the figures and don't understand why the system does this.

At about 2.4 million people voting, 20,000 votes should get you a list seat, assuming most votes 'count'.

Is this a feature…

If you equate not putting a representative into Parliament for every party that gets a single vote with interfering with someone's rights, you've got a fairly interesting definition of "right".

He doesn't. That's not what abolition of the threshold involves. FPP doesn't have a threshold, and still seems to manage.…

Any solution which involves restricting people's rights is a backwards step, not a forward one.

Who's restricting whose rights? You can vote for any party that's listed, or even write in your own if you so choose. The right to vote is not being interfered with or modified in any…

Are you including New Zealand First in that? Because of lot of their economic policies: reserve bank, protectionism, minimum wage, etc. have been to the left of Labour for some time.

No, I wasn't. But that was because I was assuming that a "new left" party wouldn't be interested in…

At present, the constituency votes of Epsom voters are worth five times more than the constituency votes of everyone else. Given the option between keeping *this* problem and removing it, I (now) say we get rid of it.

Whereas I would rather have the votes of voters in Epsom count…

At the last election, the "left of Labour" vote was ~182,000 votes

Are you including New Zealand First in that? Because of lot of their economic policies: reserve bank, protectionism, minimum wage, etc. have been to the left of Labour for some time.

– This one still does.

Yup, that's exactly my point. It's not to disregard the part played by other parties and groups, but Labour's adoption for the time being of some of these ideas opens the…

I was meaning more, despite a couple of statements that Goff has made recently, there seemed to me to be a lot of room to the left of Labour for another party.

Room ideologically, sure (that space is infinite; one can always play "lefter-than-thou"). But what matters isn't the ideological…

Sure. But the solution is less unfairness, not more. Retaining the threshold at a non-trivial level while abolishing the "electorate lifeboat" means people who would be represented under the current rules going under-represented. And that makes the problem worse, not better.

That makes *a* problem worse. But if the problem…

There never has been a parliamentary role in this country for an avowedly marxist party, and I do not see one in the future.

Who said anything about Marxist? It's possible to be left of Labour (even left of the new, cuddly Labour) and still be far from Marxist.

I still struggle to put Labour into the left-wing pile.

Somehow when I wasn't looking the real estate on the left shrunk.

More that Labour, in publicly repudiating NeoLiberalism, has occupied more of it. Though notably, that's only on economic interventionism; they're still leaving that social justice ground vacant.

Labour has just eaten their ground

Somehow when I wasn't looking the real estate on the left shrunk.

One point I'd make in response to Giovanni is that Labour's 'leftward shift' – is opening some actual ground for discussion in the political landscape that has been exceedingly hard to dig over of late.

And having the conversation started by a major party rather than a minor one makes…

It's not going to work this time either. Not with Labour – at least rhetorically – pulling so decisively away from the neoliberal reforms. And I'd be the first to cheer if we discovered an hitherto unknown reservoir of Marxists.

And that's the real problem for a new left party:…

Well voting alliance back then
and then alliance diasseaoed and we had greens as our option if we wanted to pull labour left

It's not going to work this time either. Not with Labour – at least rhetorically – pulling so decisively away from the neoliberal reforms. And I'd be…

That's all very well, but if it takes 1 or 2% off the Greens vote and the Greens don't make into Parliament because of that, it counts for me as a disaster.

that's what everyone used to say about voting greens instead of labour

Well voting alliance back then
and…

So, yes, let's abolish it, and keep MMP. Then the problematic "one-seat rule" is automatically dealt with.

Would ACT have crossed the 5% threshold if this hadn't happened? Might not have some ACT voters voted National if they feared their votes would be wasted?

Always difficult to tell, but given that they made it by 1.1% probably unlikely.

Mark Thomas' story is unusual in that this has…

Keep MMP, change this single-seat rule. Please.

The solution is either to drop the threshold to some very low value like 1 or 2% (in order to at least keep some level of serious representation), or to require that a party that gets an MP in on an electorate must…

Keep MMP, change this single-seat rule.

Keep MMP, get rid of the 5% threshold.

Yeah, it'd have been easier for Winston Peters and Graham Capill to get in or stay in but they wouldn't have had much power unless they'd got enough votes to bring a few others in with…

Those all-important life-giving Electorate Seats, under MMP:

Coromandel – lost.
Wellington Central – lost.
Tauranga – lost.
Ohariu-Belmont…

Craig, would it be possible to elaborate on what took place? I was on my OE in 1996 (which is the election to which you refer?), so I have no idea what took place and why.

Basically, Bolger used his last round of media interviews before the '96 election to…

Bolger screwed over his candidate by not so subtley telling national voters to vote for Richard Prebble in Wellington Central to get ACT into parliament. Wasn't actually needed in the end as ACT crossed the 5% threshold...

Would ACT have crossed the 5% threshold if this hadn't happened? Might not…

Craig, would it be possible to elaborate on what took place?

If I remember correctly, Mark Thomas (National candidate) failed to hold his support and hence didn't deserve to be in Parliament. Why his supporters would complain about an outsiders role in his defeat is beyond me.

Maori sovereignty would fit within that ideological space, which is where Harawira would come in.

I'm dubious that Harawira is a one issue person though. As well as believing in Maori Sovereignty, he believes in a bunch of other things which aren't particularly left wing. Like others I can't see…

Craig, would it be possible to elaborate on what took place?

There was a relatively good film festival movie on it called campaign.

Basically Bolger screwed over his candidate by not so subtley telling national voters to vote for Richard Prebble in Wellington Central to get ACT into parliament. Wasn't…

I was on my OE in 1996 (which is the election to which you refer?), so I have no idea what took place and why.

Then you should definitely check out Campaign the documentary about the 1996 Wellington Central election. It will answer all of your questions and happens to…

I was on the ground in Wellington Central when we saw our own candidate fucked over quite literally in the last moments of the campaign a few weeks before he went into coalition with someone he'd previously (and coreectly) damned as a racist.

Craig, would it be possible to elaborate…

Want to go there, dearest?

I'm happy to go there, your comment did nothing to invalidate my objection – the opposite, if anything.

Here’s an excerpt:

“This has been his plan ever since the Alliance disintegrated. Building the Unite union…

Apparently the party you're a member of thought that Act deserved to be in Parliament and made sure it would.

Want to go there, dearest? I was on the ground in Wellington Central when we saw our own candidate fucked over quite literally in the last moments of the campaign…

I rather think, though, that David Garrett has other things to worry about at the moment

I'm not so sure.

Section 76 of the Magistrates' Courts Act (of Tonga) seems pretty clear on this point. The conviction of a person in Garrett's position is stayed pending the disposition of an appeal.…

We already have one, considering Winston Peters still has the Press Gallery inexplicably fawning over him.

There is an aspect to this which could be a Good Thing. It is quite clear that the Key Government have been spreading FUD about MMP, and that Key would like to move to…

Up to a point, but if the Greens don't hold their support (which seems fairly solid, with all the usual caveats around polling) they don't deserve to be in Parliament. Nobody does.

Apparently the party you're a member of thought that Act deserved to be in Parliament and made sure…

I’m putting a lot of credence in the rumours, because they’ve come at us from different sources and I think the party has a viable business case.

I thought maybe it's just a twitter meme.

If Sue and Matt do set up a party, it is possible…

David Farrar has headlined a post on the matter It's only official when it is denied,

David Farrar shags farm animals. Come on, big boy, deny that.

That's all very well, but if it takes 1 or 2% off the Greens vote and the Greens don't make into Parliament because…