Public Address | Cafe | Hard News: Neither fish nor fowl

Kyle Matthews

Fri, 12 Apr 2013 16:51:27 +1200

Sounds like a traffic light would help a lot.

That's at lights. Here

anth

Thu, 11 Apr 2013 12:48:30 +1200

Before the give way rule change I saw a few examples of drivers thinking that turning right gave them right of way on both lanes and who actually seemed to try to ram a left turning car
I should have made it clear that these incidents weren't at this on…

BenWilson

Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:29:28 +1200

Sounds like a traffic light would help a lot.

Kyle Matthews

Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:23:07 +1200

Yes, I had no memory of it. I don’t recall the codes from the 80s having any specific mention of different rules of right of way for 2-way entries into two-lane roads, and I’m not surprised – it just doesn’t seem like a rule that would cause much trouble from…

anth

Thu, 11 Apr 2013 10:20:54 +1200

The cyclist as a vehicle clearly makes the entire situation completely different from that rule, since there is no way it is correct that a cyclist turning at that intersection must take the right lane of the on-ramp.
Yeah, this entrance to the cycleway is a pretty good example of…

BenWilson

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 17:18:50 +1200

Of course, but if that rule actually mattered terribly much we wouldn’t have dozens of people dying every year in intersection crashes.

If it didn't matter, we might have thousands of people dying. Any angry idiot in a big truck out to make a point could kill people who failed…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 13:46:36 +1200

Also, I speculate, it’s quite rare to find an uncontrolled intersection of this kind.

Nowhere near as rare as you'd suspect. Top of Mortimer Pass in Newmarket springs immediately to mind. It's fairly common for onramps, come to think of it, though as the motorways get upgraded there's a lot…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 13:39:12 +1200

Knowledge of that detail of law is trumped in the safety stakes by the far more general rule that one should drive to avoid accidents.

Of course, but if that rule actually mattered terribly much we wouldn’t have dozens of people dying every year in intersection crashes.

If the person…

BenWilson

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 12:55:41 +1200

Fortunately this isn’t one of those arguments. I freely admit Matthew is correct. My consultation of the road code before I posted just didn’t find the section on one-way roads, but I can see it’s clear now.

It’s a great example of why I think there should be, at minimum,…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:58:21 +1200

I know exactly what you mean.

It's a great example of why I think there should be, at minimum, mandatory "must pass" road rules testing every time you have to renew your licence. This is a situation where not knowing the law actually could result in a serious collision.

Bart Janssen

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:52:51 +1200

I suggest you familiarise yourself with the Road Code’s opinion on the matter. It doesn’t support your assertion.

I had one of "those" arguments* once with my partner about exactly that. Surprisingly being able to show her the road code did not seem to improve the argument :).

*you know…

Matthew Poole

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 08:45:32 +1200

There is no compulsion whatsoever when turning to choose the closest lane.

I suggest you familiarise yourself with the Road Code's opinion on the matter. It doesn't support your assertion.

BenWilson

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:54:33 +1200

That is what people do all the time at that intersection, though. It seems to work well.

Sure, but that is an example of cooperative driving, rather like the "merge like a zip" thing. A bit like letting people out of side roads, it's people making traffic work, when the…

Russell Brown

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:27:49 +1200

That sounds dangerously counterintuitive. How would either car know which lane the other wanted to turn into? There is no compulsion whatsoever when turning to choose the closest lane. You just have to indicate three seconds before the turn. If what you are saying is true, I would expect to…

Russell Brown

Mon, 08 Apr 2013 07:25:22 +1200

I’ve never been so much as tooted at

I’ve been yelled at to get off the road by the driver of a car behind me.

I had my first significant on-road confrontation yesterday. A silly old man yelled at me about wanting “the whole road” as he went past, and…

BenWilson

Sun, 07 Apr 2013 23:09:13 +1200

Actually as there are two lanes on the off ramp, with one lane from each direction to feed them, both left and right turning vehicles have right of way to the lane closest to them. This law remains the same with regard to this though has always seemed to be…

Paul Campbell

Sun, 07 Apr 2013 22:52:29 +1200

An interesting question ..... if the a left turning car and a right turning car coming the other way are turning into the same street the right turner gives way .... however as I understand it if there's a traffic island there separating the left turners off a little early…

anth

Sun, 07 Apr 2013 20:23:56 +1200

I’ve never been so much as tooted at
I've been yelled at to get off the road by the driver of a car behind me.

I wonder if some of this is because of the recent law change on turning vehicles. In the past, cars turning right onto the ramp…

Paul Campbell

Sat, 06 Apr 2013 16:00:03 +1300

Lucy: as a driver I'm largely in favour of it too .... but as a pedestrian I see that it has its problems – it puts those cars into spaces that traffic lights usually keep them out of (active pedestrian crossings) – with, as I've seen, potentially dangerous results.

I…

Matthew Poole

Sat, 06 Apr 2013 14:06:56 +1300

despite no clear markings that bikes can use it

Bikes (motor and push) are permitted to use any bus lane on any road where they are otherwise allowed to be, markings or no.

Lucy Stewart

Sat, 06 Apr 2013 12:37:16 +1300

The US does have places where "no turn on red" signs are posted (this is one that needs one) and traffic lights need to be very carefully tuned.

I've really enjoyed the free turn rule since I moved to Massachusetts – it does great things for traffic flow – but…

Deborah

Fri, 05 Apr 2013 21:41:55 +1300

I wonder if you escaped the fine because you admitted that it was a fair cop.

I ride a "ladies" bike, not because I am a lady (I'm not), but because I find it easy to get off and on, and to ride it a bit like a scooter (mostly…

Jon Briggs

Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:46:13 +1300

I got stopped by a plain clothes police car for running reds on Queen Street earlier this week. It was a fair cop. I was running late for a ferry and went through with the pedestrians faster than I normally would. They were pretty good about it, I felt suitably…

Zach Bagnall

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 23:13:34 +1300

If anyone's wondering why cycling posts always draw comments from overseas readers with their experiences in other cities, it's because they've seen the future of NZ.

Gregor Ronald

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:03:56 +1300

In Christchurch, around half the roads I ride on have restrictions for repairs. In the narrow lanes of cones, I'll dodge onto the footpath to let the cars go past. I have a helmet mirror, which helps me see if I am blocking anyone. Lots of people give a toot…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:01:21 +1300

Exactly. The law asks cyclists to embrace unacceptable risk at that intersection.

Most of Symonds St is not cycle friendly (unless you break the rules), and the changes needed to make it more friendly are pretty minimal. Simply acknowledging that the bus lanes are also bike lanes would go a…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:48:45 +1300

Worth noting, btw, that the Newton crossing can be avoided completely by using the underpass. If going into the city, you'd turn hard right at the lights, following the path under the bridge. It adds to the climb, but it does mean you don't have to wait for the lights.…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:39:19 +1300

So just getting on to the n/w cycleway from the Ponsonby side requires you to either turn right across traffic with no lights or cycling straight across to the Newton side before going across at the lights.

OK, so you were talking about coming from Ponsonby. Yes, it’s not pretty.…

Howard Edwards

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:33:29 +1300

We live in the country on a popular cycling touring route, and our pet peeve is being woken from weekend slumber by cyclists shouting at one another. We've been told by a cyclist friend that because our property is just past the crest of a long hill climb, cyclists are…

Allan MacLachlan

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:25:05 +1300

I'm not overly familiar with that intersection, but sometimes you've got to go out of your way to keep yourself safe. If that means carrying on a few hundred metres to the Newton side of the bridge, and crossing with the lights to double back, then so be it.

Chris Robertson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 15:02:39 +1300

Especially because coming off the cycle path (which I use because it's still preferable to sharing the road with drivers who are Very Angry that I'm not on the cycle path) puts you in an awkward position at those lights. I'm never sure the waiting traffic's seen me, so I…

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 14:29:41 +1300

What’s your gripe with the Newton one?

Just getting straight across to and from either side is a challenge; no bike lanes, kerb a foot high, narrow lanes, turning traffic. So just getting on to the n/w cycleway from the Ponsonby side requires you to either turn right across traffic…

Russell Brown

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 13:01:00 +1300

Fuck that, I will just take the fine if a cop ever decides to bust me for slipping through the pedestrian signal and then bombing the bus lane.

Exactly. The law asks cyclists to embrace unacceptable risk at that intersection.

Russell Brown

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 13:00:03 +1300

or the entry to the cycleway coming down Newton Rd from Ponsonby (that is for confident cyclists only, I’d agree, indeed I think most cyclists wouldn’t even think to use it at all).

It's a friggin' nightmare. Much safer to head west along Great North Road and join the "other"…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:47:51 +1300

Pretty much all crossings over the NW motorway that I can think of (Newton Rd, Motat and Pt Chev) are just complete disasters for all traffic

What's your gripe with the Newton one? I agree in the other two cases, that the very design means that breaking the technical law…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:44:30 +1300

As a driver of several thousand passes through that exact intersection, I'd say the presence of the pedestrian crossing with no sight line is enough to slow most drivers down. Bikes are actually more visible than pedestrians in that circumstance. I don't think I've ever had a situation where cars…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:42:10 +1300

Has there been an increase recently in cycling through pedestrian light signals around Auckland?

It feels like there has to me. I frequently do Symonds St down to the University, and the crossing at the end of K-Rd is one where I almost never see a cyclist stop and wait…

BenWilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:32:57 +1300

And that’s just stupid riding. I wasn’t joking about eyeballing the traffic coming up that off-ramp. I don’t go unless I’m confident the driver has seen me and is giving way.

I cross this spot nearly every time I use the cycleway. About one in ten cars doesn't give way.…

Phil Lyth

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:08:16 +1300

If you are bigger or faster do not allow your size or speed to hurt other people … even if they are doing something “wrong”.

Maybe with a corollary, Don't assume that on a bike you can get away with stupidity.

Seen on Thorndon Quay, which has angle parking, a…

Hugh Wilson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:55:53 +1300

The article linked to by Russell was published in the Farifax papers here in Australia last week.

I don’t have a lot to add to the discussion, but would point out that while there are a lot of similarities to cycling in Auckland, Christchurch, Melbourne and Sydney there are also…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:40:49 +1300

Actually having lived with the free left turn on red rule for 20 years I'd disagree – really what it does is turn a red light into a stop sign for those turning left (you're supposed to give way to absolutely everyone else in this situation) – for a start…

Angus Robertson

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:24:16 +1300

Why don't we have free left turn on red?

Its a rule that would improve safety for pedestrians.

Jackie Clark

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:23:50 +1300

I have to say I don't see any problems with what Russell is saying. Anticipation is our friend.

Bart Janssen

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:16:06 +1300

With the above all in mind, about a month ago I was driving on a main road coming up to a pedestrian crossing ... I saw the kid on the skateboard on the footpath and guessed what he might do ... even having guessed that, I had to hit the…

Bart Janssen

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:09:39 +1300

Don’t make angry drivers angry … bull…shit!

So I’m not a small person, if I’m walking or (knees willing) running and I step on a small person or child I will hurt them …this is a bad thing … I don’t like hurting other people (who knew, I’m not a…

Glenn Pearce

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:32:15 +1300

Having walked with my family on parts of the Hauraki trail over Easter (couldn't ride due to child with badly broken arm) I can say that is a disaster waiting to happen, most riders were considerate, but others not so esp. the teenage boys.

100kg even at moderate speed on…

Russell Brown

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:21:56 +1300

Wandering through the Queenstowns gardens last weekend on my currently gammy leg I was continually being hassled by cyclists for not getting out of the way

Wtf is wrong with some people? Fwiw, I'll always slow down if I think a walker hasn't seen me, and I'll thank anyone who…

Martin Lindberg

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 10:03:12 +1300

The crossing by Motat (heading outbound) has ugly sightlines

Pretty much all crossings over the NW motorway that I can think of (Newton Rd, Motat and Pt Chev) are just complete disasters for all traffic. They aren't suitable as motorway on-ramps for cars, let alone for through-traffic for pedestrians and…

Martin Roberts

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:48:15 +1300

I find that putting my foot down before riding those crosswalks satisfies most reluctant-to-slow drivers. I scheme to walk super-slow in front of cars who demand I dismount, but in practise the next car stops cheerfully and I don't want to hold them up. (Should I be worried how much…

Tom Semmens

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:41:56 +1300

On Telegraph Ave you're as likely to be bowled over by a bike cop as by someone...

I have just spent 17 days in South Beach and the biggest danger there was also cops and other cyclists on the footpath, cars were really considerate – especially around the beach. Cyclists…

Martin Roberts

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:41:41 +1300

Has there been an increase recently in cycling through pedestrian light signals around Auckland? Perhaps driven by increased pedestrian time at the CBD intersections? Etiquette seems to be that you let the pedestrians go first then slowly ride through the space behind the initial rush. I find that this puts…

Rich of Observationz

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 08:56:16 +1300

A motorist can see a person wandering up to a crossing, and looking both ways, but a cyclist whizzing across as if it were an automatic assumption

Well yes. What people forget is that the road rules are not some moral code as to who has precedence, but a system…

Paul Campbell

Thu, 04 Apr 2013 07:57:48 +1300

So someone has to speak up for the pedestrians: I used to live in Berkeley (California) home of an avid pro-bike community – as well at the home of the radical disability rights movement. On Telegraph Ave you're as likely to be bowled over by a bike cop as by…

Moz

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:18:07 +1300

We once ran the workshop with Wellington Police. It was enlightening to see Police take shortcuts like the ones RB writes about. They turned without indicating, wandered through Stop signs, and overtook queues of slow moving traffic. Not strictly legal

Strictly illegal, as you know. I used to collect helmet…

Moz

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:09:35 +1300

Incidentally, in Sydney a friend of mine is the cycling official for the CBD council, and a lot of their work is on a: persuading more people to cycle; and b: persuading the road-building muppets to build things that work for cyclists. A big part of it is building things…

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:07:29 +1300

The good news is that we can fix all these problems if we care enough.
In the meantime, pedal on and don’t be a dick.

Amen.

Moz

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:58:55 +1300

Heh, I was asked not to ring the Wellington "broken traffic light" number by the plod, after I was told by a plod to ring it rather than just riding through broken lights. So I did. Once per week, per broken light. Which, BTW, you are legally required to treat…

Patrick Morgan

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:57:39 +1300

Here at Cycling Advocates' Network we run Bus/Bike workshops, where we take bus drivers for a pedal, and they let us drive their buses. Then we chat about what we learned. It's a powerful tool in gaining insights into why people cycle / drive as they do.
We once ran…

Ana Simkiss

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:40:21 +1300

So true James. I am the world's most visible and traffic-law-obeying cyclist. 100% of my riding is in central Auckland in fairly slow traffic. And STILL I get cut off, beeped and routinely have people pass way too close.

James Butler

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:34:59 +1300

My cycling friends advise that the chief benefit of dismounting for crossings is to not make angry drivers angry.

In my experience so far there is no correlation between how I behave on my bike and how drivers behave towards me. Drivers who are dicks will act like dicks, tailgate,…

Russell Brown

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:30:47 +1300

A motorist can see a person wandering up to a crossing, and looking both ways, but a cyclist whizzing across as if it were an automatic assumption… well I’ve almost taken one out before.

And that’s just stupid riding. I wasn’t joking about eyeballing the traffic coming up that off-ramp.…

tonyH

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 21:05:03 +1300

In the last two years I rode a lot in Al Ain in the UAE, a city about the size of, and as flat as, Christchurch. Most of the main streets are dual carriageway, four or six lanes, and the urban speed limits are variously 60, 80 or 100kph, with…

Simon Pound

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:23:43 +1300

I'm with you Russell. I'm on the pavement in an instant whenever worried. I'm too chicken to ride in town off cycleways. Too many near-misses when I rode a lot as a teenager. I'm worried I've already used all my cycling luck.

Raymond A Francis

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:11:11 +1300

I have no problem with that, it seems sensible but GHY if you clip me when I am walking across there

Damian Christie

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:08:54 +1300

I drive through that crossing all the time (we talking about the painted white lines across the free left turn onto St Lukes Rd from the motorway off-ramp?), having just got off the motorway at St Lukes. I keep an eye out for cyclists for that exact reason, but I…

jb

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:57:05 +1300

1 April in enlightened Germany brought a whole raft of increased fines for cyclists. Not using a bike path will get you pinged €35, riding on the pavement €20, through a pedestrian precinct €15…
Except that sometimes and on some days, you’re allowed to ride through the latter at a…

Public Address

Wed, 03 Apr 2013 19:57:05 +1300

Discussion from blog post.