Got it now. My reading of Worik's post was that this economic exploitation was something he thought the government had it's eyes one, not iwi.

Ah. That reading hadn't occurred to me.

IIRC, the message from iwi with regard to the property rights associated with the FS&SB amounted to "great, now…

No. But Worik was speculating on the foreshore's value based on its potential for economic exploitation via mining and fish-farming.

Got it now. My reading of Worik's post was that this economic exploitation was something he thought the government had it's eyes one, not iwi.

IIRC, the message from iwi…

Russell, are you really saying that hapu should have property rights taken away, in case they misuse their property ?

No. But Worik was speculating on the foreshore's value based on its potential for economic exploitation via mining and fish-farming. As far as I can tell, both of those are…

Worik, I'm not sure if you understand the issue.

I understand very well. I spent a lot of time huiing and listening to both sides during the passage of the Act.

Sorry, I didn't mean to seem patronising, you just weren't very clear in your first post.

But other people,…

Can I confess to being a Waitangi Day slacker? I'm glad the ceremonies up north went off without major incident, but I felt nothing much about the day.

Sorry, I'm slow reading RB's original post, and it seems the discussion has moved on a bit. I share that sense of…

No. The "white people" thing was in response to a comment above, which I quoted. As you say, there were nutters fanning the flames on both sides.

Actually I said more. I said the state was one of the nutters.

No, not at all. Not even a little bit. The…

Me, I can't get too…

Shadbolt has always been a self-serving dick. I recall an overseas visitor watching, open-mouthed,at one of…

And look at what you said about "get white folks' backs up, including mine". Do you not see that you are buying into a racist argument?

No. The "white people" thing was in response to a comment above, which I quoted. As you say, there were nutters fanning the flames…

The FSA is restricted to the area between mean high spring tide and the Territorial limit. It also covers riverbeds and some lake-beds. Hardly valuable parcels of land. Unless they are of cultural significance.

Wrong.

Very very valuable *industrial* land. Mining, fish farming....

It's the "all your foreshore are belong to us" rhetoric that helped get

That was the rhetoric that got maori backs up Russel.

There were nutters on both sides, but it was the state saying "all your foreshore are belong to us". When the state takes on the role of…

Yes, serious lack of girlz here today. Let's get sexyist. ;-)

We are here, just lurkin....

Actually it seems that most of the PAS Women's XV are over "discussing" American politics with James Bremner on the other thread.

I'm pretty sure Godwin was a man.

Heresy!!

Don't worry, Godwin's Law is definitely female. In fact, it's a bitch.

Nearly, Jesus saved.

Nailed it to the post.
(ooooooooooh that's bad)

I'm pretty sure Godwin was a man.

Heresy!!

Nearly, Jesus saved

But Torres knocks in the rebound (boom boom)

Yes, serious lack of girlz here today. Let's get sexyist. ;-)

I'm pretty sure Godwin was a man.

God won? ;-)

Nearly, Jesus saved.

It's a serious bottleneck anyhoo.

Yeah, no arguing that. But 'cut off'? I don't think so. Just did a tracert on tehrantimes.com: 15 hops to get to 62.193.18.228.dpi.ir

To whom and how would you calculate value?

Or how much a rich American would pay for it.

To whom and how would you calculate value?

To anyone trying to cross it, and I guess how much they would pay is a fair estimation.

Iran is totally cut off.

Or not, as the case may be.

From the slashdot thread I linked to...

A quick perusal of, e.g., newspaper web sites in Iran [onlinenewspapers.com] finds every one I have tried working fine, including all state-run media. As is the web site of the Government…

Again in hindsight, I guess I should not be surprised. A party whose main point is to represent Maori has no real left-right affiliations. And I guess the "traditional" leadership structure and set of beliefs would probably be classified as "conservative". It's almost the definition…

Those parts of the beach below the MHWSM but above, say, the mean low water level can, presumably, be extremely valuable?

To whom and how would you calculate value?
I presume, as I have not done or read any study, that most of this 30% would be in the South Island?

Do you think it might have anything to do with Iran's intended opening of its oil bourse?

It hase been alluded to.
Foil hats on guys.

Along about…

Totally off topic but regarding the loss of 5? undersea cables in the Middle East

Iran is totally cut off. Do you think it might have anything to do with Iran's intended opening of its oil bourse? *s*

totally off topic but regarding the loss of 5? undersea cables in the Middle East,

despite the incredible unlikelihood of such an event happening it does seem to be pure conincidence. Iran, which is supposedly the 'target' of whatever conspiracy is underway (as pointed out in a Wired column I…

I'd have preferred to see it go through the courts and wind up in something similar to the Ngati Porou deal, but the angry rhetoric wasn't only coming from one side

Agreed, it's easy to crank out a slogan.

But your position does not reflect the excellent solution-building that was…

I'd have preferred to see it go through the courts and wind up in something similar to the Ngati Porou deal, but Labour got spooked by the likes of the sky-is-falling editorial in the Herald, and by the traction National's "Iwi versus Kiwi" pitch was getting on the issue.

Yeah,…

The LINZ Foreshore Project reported: "6,032 kilometres (30.4%) of the coastline is bounded 12,609 privately owned land parcels." The overwhelming majority…

Now Maori are tied up having to pursue through negotiation something that it looked very much like they already owned, because white people suddenly learnt that the beach might not actually be theirs.

It's the "all your foreshore are belong to us" rhetoric that helped get white folks' backs up,…

Now Maori are tied up having to pursue through negotiation something that it looked very much like they already owned, because white people suddenly learnt that the beach might not actually be theirs.

This white man thought the beaches were everyone's including Maori. That they could become the property of…

Exactly. The position had to be clarified. Whether right or wrong in the status that was created by the act it allows easier acces to redress and as such it should be looked at as a vehicle for solution rather than a land grab.

I think what you've called 'clarification'…

The position had to be clarified. Whether right or wrong in the status that was created by the act it allows easier acces to redress and as such it should be looked at as a vehicle for solution rather than a land grab.

The Court of Appeal's position was quite…

Why was Tame Iti there at all? His tribe didn't sign the Treaty.

In other news, Tim Shadbolt is still a dick

But he's still got the funniest voice in politics. Very Goofy. If Banks could get a Donald Duck going when he's angry, he might steal the crown, though.

And old those ancient electoral laws he is trying (unsuccessfully?) to break, what kind of example does that set his council, I wonder.

Only if the government was slack.

A benevolent dictatorship under David Slack? Huzzah!

This claim would still be before the court under conditions existing before the act.

Only if the government was slack. And they had every incentive to solve the problem quickly with settlements.

On the plus side, they wouldn't has poisoned relations with the other Treaty partner for a generation as…

Can the same critics even explain why National's MPs should bother after their leader was pelted in the face with mud a few years back?

Sure, you *might* have a good day -…

As for the law "settling the status quo", the reason why it was necessary was precisely that the status quo wasn't (or rather, it was somewhat different to what Pakeha thought it was – i.e. them owning everything and Maori being peons.

Exactly. The position had to be clarified. Whether…

Well, yes — it might have been a good move to actually occupy the moral high ground instead of just claiming it.

Alternative media narrative then: "Helen Clark has gone to ground, refusing to comment over claims that she should 'get over it' on Waitangi Day."

That's er... generous? I thought the reason for the Act was to remove from Maori the ability to pursue through court legal rights over the foreshore and seabed, because it was going to be a political shitstorm.

So avoid the shitstorm by clarifying the law and making This possible.…

I thought Te Kaea had rather better coverage of Waitangi Day yesterday than the main news channels. Not just that they covered more events round the country, but with a degree less hysteria.

I haven't previously done anything in particular on Waitangi Day, but found my local experience at Ōtākou…

If I, or my colleagues, had been sprayed with urine (or perhaps even 'just' pelted with mud) at a particular venue, I wouldn't set foot within 500 yards of the place again.

Also wondering if anyone else went to the 'official' Auckland event at Orakei Domain yesterday.…

Although perhaps boozed mobs painted with the flag, silver fern and whatever clause catches their fancy could be kind of amusing.

Was she supposed to say nothing?

Well, yes — it might have been a good move to actually occupy the moral high ground instead of just claiming it. I know it played well in talkback land and she is perfectly entitled to arrange her diary as she sees fit, but…

Surly settlement by negotiation and agreement is a preferable way of achieving a solution to a problem than dragging it through the courts.

I agree entirely – but regardless of how many cases went to court, that was what was going to happen anyway. You only have to look at…

As far as I can see the reason for the foreshore and seabed act was to clarify the status quo.

That's er... generous? I thought the reason for the Act was to remove from Maori the ability to pursue through court legal rights over the foreshore and seabed, because it…

I haven't previously done anything in particular on Waitangi Day, but found my local experience at Ōtākou…

And do you think Clark could have been a little more snide and condescending herself?

Feb 5

Key slams Clark's absence from marae

Feb 6

Clark hits back over "get over it" comment

Was she supposed to say nothing?

'waste of public money'

What? And consign kiwi psychics to welfare?

Wonder how many of the mediums predicted there'd be another series?

Something substantial, or just conjecture?

Nothing new. The firearms charges Iti will face this year aren't themselves so serious, but the police will throw in every admissable piece of evidence they can. I think there's enough there to substantially affect public perceptions of those involved.

"...highlighting of Iti's family in a speech, might turn out to be problematic for Key. I am willing to lay odds that Iti's public reputation will be rather poorer than it is now by year's end."

or this;

"Tame Iti will…

It reads as if it became something special, and something worth a bit more respect than the snide dismissal it got from John Key.

And do you think Clark could have been a little more snide and condescending herself? It's a bit rich snarking about the dumb Maori being suckered…