generally nationalised in their 'call to arms'

dealing in sensationalism often ignoring cutural tradition. the rights arbitrary, citizens in all countries bar none, people, are subject to abuses of human rights,

the key 21st century…

On more than one occasion during our six rounds of discussion with…

But if that's all people read (or want to read) about China, they will get a very skewed picture of what's happening in a country of 1.3 billion people that is undergoing the most rapid and comprehensive social transformation in the history of mankind.

This assumes a great deal -…

This article in the Guardian by Daniel Bell, professor of philosophy at Tsinghua University in Beijing. seeks to address these same issues.

In China, it will come as no great surprise that the heavy hand of state censorship is the biggest problem.....

...In western countries, by contrast, the…

I'll try to list some.
generally no enforced drinking age.
tolerance of smoking
cycling without helmets
tolerance of street vending-
general tolerance of alot of road madness, that would be instantly taxed in NZ

a tax system for small businesses in which the proprietor buys…

Give some examples Mark?

Look I'm interested in your view but on any measurement of freedoms internationally New Zealand aces China be it economic, cultural or social. ..but yeh they may be biased measurements but that's a hell of a lot of…

Simple fact of the matter is this, there's not a thing you…

Kyle it's not fair to ask Mark to argue with Lingers words

Eh? The quote is from his posting.

What's the issue? what was world war 1,2, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iraq.

The comparison between various countries sending soldiers off to die in foreign wars, and the Chinese government…

This isn't an arguement just look after yourself.

And I've seen the BBC series Beijing (or Shanghai) D.P. where the cops did pistol whip suspects. Every drug dealer was muslim etc. Privacy -…

But putting it in those words seems to expose a disconnect between (i) and (ii); how do they form a coherent argument?

And neither of them relate at all to a defence of the statement "the greater good of the masses is the priority" in relation to killing citizens, which…

the western…

Mark Taslov: I'm simply contending that; those antagonized by free media into presuming those administered state media suffer the same media addiction and wholesale unsophisitication, could consider increasing their salt intake before espousing the malignancy of state media.

Kyle Matthews: Way to make little sense through excessive use of big…

People…

To have a say in the way they are governed?

from taxi?

"When will the New Zealand population be empowered? "

Well some people are trying and it seems to be a growing movement but chinese progression is difficult to measure from here.

Who would you say has been empowered in China in the last decade and how?…

I'm simply contending that; those antagonized by free media into presuming those administered state media suffer the same media addiction and wholesale unsophisitication, could consider increasing their salt intake before espousing the malignancy of state media.

Way to make little sense through excessive use of big wordage.

I'm not qualified. Manapouri isn't near Tibet on my atlas,…

it needs more detail.

So how long will it take for China to stop being a superpower? When
will this system empower the people? in their lifetime?

I agree with a bit of what you've said. Democracy doesn't equal freedom and two parties…

Mark Taslov – That is a vital part of our democracy. Our Govt serves or changes on the will of the people.

Although in my opinion Govt holds…

Mr Ranapia, I hear you, I've been reading, for a while, I'm in two minds about the criticism and public scrutiny, in that I'm down with everyman chipping in, but I have serious misgivings about the role of private media, exploiting a good story to make a buck.

Well, I…

I know what you're saying Mr Crawford, human life is human life, but for a government, of any nation, big or small, the greater good of the masses is the priority, You'd like to feel you're more than part of a statistic.

An argument that is no doubt reassuring to…

While the…

Mark you're totally off it here. Raids, arrests, and intimidation of dissenters in NZ has all happened, but not shootings. A half ass apology from NZs top cop Howard Broad was reported today regarding that as well.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10500960

As you have gone on to say…

My paternal gene type is centred on western europe with the closest off shoot going to india.

There are some real holes in the genebase – apparently I'm Han Chinese as well.

Well, I'd note that 'Anglosphere' tends to have a more transparent and robust culture than China when it comes to public scrutiny and criticism of the government, armed forces and police.

This weekend, I've been finding quite a few instances where our supposedly free-and-fair Western media has been pretty much…

With regard to Tibet, all i can really…

Oh.
My.
God.

I was thinking of a being who traditionally lives in the basement, not the penthouse. :)

If you've got that number, how many westerners from these countries were beaten, brutalized or killed by police during the ten or so days in which the media and so on…

When after the Timorese independence referendum Indonesian paramilitaries set about the destruction of every road, school and hospital they built, I thought they had a point.

Oh.
My.
God.

Columnists tend to benefit from coming back to that frightfully clever extended analogy after twenty-four hours. As often as not, it doesn't look quite so smart.

I'd struggle to see how it looked clever two seconds after it was typed. What a dick.

Roughan's analogy module needs some refinement.

It needs an urgent upgrade until Roughan stops 'seeing the point' of torching hospitals. Columnists tend to benefit from coming back to that frightfully clever extended analogy after twenty-four hours. As often as not, it doesn't look quite so smart.

Why then is it so hard to credit China's attitude to Tibet, Sudan's to Darfur or, closer to home, Indonesia's to East Timor?

Roughan's analogy module needs some refinement.

We might never have been to the Ureweras, have no plans ever to go and not much idea of what the nation might lose, but we would fight for its integrity. Why then is it…

similar as in "he's not a divine leader, he's just a very naughty boy"?

I lol'd.

How's this for an Inconvenient Truth?

Judge Judy's off to South America – rather than finish the murder trial ... er a murder trial.

By any chance will she be held in contempt of court?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4449256a12855.html

There's a place in cuba that might need some immediate intention.

this…

Sure, but I was trying to put my world citizen hat on here.
Is freedom achievable for China in my lifetime and what would that look like?

And would that impact the slow general march of…

Sleep-deprivation.

I don’t think that’s really up for debate.

“If they did stand back and let the rioters blow off steam, that may well be a sign…

thanks everyone for ignoring that point after rb pointed out my silly :D

That youtube clip did not impress me at all. Firstly, he points out that Tibet has been independent quite a bit in the last millennium. And the sky didn't fall and China did not disintegrate, which basically defeats his main argument.

Oh good, I thought I might have been going…

As for the multicultural thing, sure it is multi-ethnic,…

I'd rather not take........

craig, well put.

It reminds me of the modern corporate/psychopath conundrum. as long as they are playing by some rules, and are no worse than theircompetitors then they believe they are not the evil ones. A justification that simply makes no sense. and once the justification…

um actually yes it is as bad
and that's what we know about

Sue, even on the worst estimates there is no comparison between what's going on in China today and the Cultural Revolution, Stalin's purges, or the Holocaust. Or even the American Civil War, which claimed 620,000 lives.

um actually yes it is as bad
and that's what we know about

this is the amazing enigma of china, it's…

That sounds illegal.

Finsec might be worth a chat & Unite did well for the kids at McDs.

To become the one stop shop where they can cnr the local market on papers, mags, & lotto tickets.

They should make more out of this package counting any loss from being NZ Post ticket clippers to make…

Thanks for delurking with that comment: that is complete news to me, and as a Kiwibank customer, it makes me feel a bit queasy.

I can't take my business to TSB; I don't have a mortgage.

Kiwibank may be able to undercut its competitors but it's by virtue of the Employment Contracts Act and the franchise sytem not by being smarter.

ERA, surely.

I found the youtube video... I dunno. Creepy. The under/over tone of "fuck you you hypocrites, we'll do this to Tibet if we…

And still a whole bunch of people vote “Taliban” on sexual issues including something as natural as orientation. I can’t believe our quiet retardedness when it comes to matters of sexuality and I never knew that…

But more importantly, let me speak up for China. Yes, they still do some bad things, but it's nothing compared to Stalin, Mao, Hitler or the US Civil war.

Well, I'm rather put in mind of this tart passage from Gore Vidal's essay 'Pink Triangle, Yellow Star':

“In the German…

Tom said : I am a nationalist and we need to stick up for ourselves & make our own luck in the world, if we don't then foreign corporates will shaft us quicker…

People are only half-joking when they refer to Tokyo as "the Eastern Capital".

Eh? Isn't that exactly what "Tokyo" means in Japanese?
(From comparison with the previous, more westerly, capital of Kyoto.)

That Love for that nation, thousands of years of love . Fundamentally indigineous. My whitelady / hairy fucking iceman mishmash dna is only clocking 100 for New Zealand. Beautiful,fucked up and angry . The only way your going…

To me, those words could have come straight out of the mouths of a New Zealand settler in about 1880, speaking of Maori. Or Chief Justice Prendergast, talking of "mere savages".

Re: Maoist rebels in Nepal, they have come to…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9QNKB34cJo

I think I said something upthread about young Chinese men and nationalism. This one's Canadian-based. It is actually worth looking at. The guy has 1400 subscribers.

He also has has a Facebook page, which features extended video from Llasa TV (state-controlled, of course, but it's…

Anyone who can read it and would be minded to provide a digest in translation should, of course, go right ahead."

I was thinking of a china with a free press but you're right , someone should translate skykiwi so we…

For something completely…

Which is why, although we *have* to deal with them economically, as decent people we should keep this to a minimum and not be cowed from speaking out.

This what I think too. I realise Helen Clark has to walk a tricky tightrope but she is wrong to give the…

One intellectual from Beijing, usually vehemently opposed to the party, said Tibetans had been "slaves" before China…

The present Chinese regime isn't going anywhere near that.…

Actually, I think the debate in the comments below the column is is the best part. It's vigorous and interesting.

It's nearly as good as PAS.

China could sort this by giving Tibetans basic human rights and a plebiscite on whether to become independent, have autonomy within China or remain as today. Instead, they shoot 17-year old kids.

Depends what you mean by "Tibetans". A referendum of all citizens of the Tibetan Autonomous Region would probably…

Compared with the usual purple-inked drooling on Guardian comments forums, it isn't that bad. I got about halfway through the rival 1000-word historical essays before giving up.

For me the point is simple. It's not really down to whether the Mongol's at some stage conquered Tibet, bringing…

And my sense is that the concern around Mr Key actually not having anything much to offer is seeping through the wider electorate.

In the interests of full disclosure, Mr Roberts, anything you'd like to share with the class that might suggest your perspective on John Key is a little…

I'd like to think so, but it's not the job of the…

Ed Douglas, the climbing correspondent of the Guardian helps sort out our views on the Tibet situation.

Actually, I think the debate in the comments below the column is is the best part. It's vigorous and interesting.

For goodness sake. Just say "circumstances change" or something. That's perfectly alright. But please, don’t make a claim to have been misquoted your standard response when it's suggested that you've changed your mind. It's not a very good thing to say to a journalist.

You’re totally right Russell. I think…

Well there is a point in between…

Putting the Olympic flame on the summit of Mount Everest must have seemed a great idea to the planning committee of the Beijing Olympics. What better expression of China's inexorable rise to superpower…

but on past form it'll be roiling with declarations of Chinese nationalism from angry young men

heh heh. I could have added to my earlier anecdote that something I found fascinating about the Chinese I interacted with was their fierce patriotism. They may have 'escaped' China and have horrifying stories…

For example, Sinclair has had 5 “last chance tests” so far this season. Would that be a record?

Because your average punter looking for an EFTPOS card and somewhere to bank their wages is fully able to understand bank disclosure statements and judge the relative level of risk. I mean, we all know what Tier I capital requirements are, don't we?

The NYT has a piece by author Patrick French that explains the many deficits that ethnic Tibetans face, and frankly doubts that 20 years of Richard Gere-style Tibet lobbying has done them a blind bit of good.

Not a bad idea. But their best USP is that it is almost unimaginable that the NZ government would let a bank it owns fail. (Yes, I know it's not explicitly backed by full faith and credit, but in effect it is).

Rich: I'd love to see that in a…

Yes, I was meaning more that I hope the NZ Govt wouldn't act differently in the event of bank runs etc based on whether or not they own the bank.

But on your point,…

All but two OECD nations have deposit insurance for ordinary retail customers. NZ and Australia don't.

And I can recommend Flashman's Lady by the late & lamented George MacDonald Fraser for a brilliant description of cricket in the 1840s

it is almost unimaginable that the NZ government would let a bank it owns fail. (Yes, I know it's not explicitly backed by full faith and credit, but in effect it is).

While it's *likely* that if ANZ/National for instance were to get into trouble, the Australian government (possibly with…

How about Kiwibank promote itself on the basis that it offers better services and lower fees?

Quite. I think their desire to to move the brand upscale a bit — it's seen as a bank for people who don't have money — and they actually have a good story to…

How about Kiwibank promote itself on the basis that it offers better services and lower fees?

Indeed, surely we'd prefer a NZ owned back that was actually better at what it does...
But I should note I actually don't have any problem with Kiwisaver promoting it's NZ ownership – it's…

Now it's returning to its true form -…

Not a bad idea. But their best USP is that it is almost unimaginable that the NZ government would let a bank it owns fail. (Yes, I know it's not explicitly backed by full…

Well some people on PA might find the idea of living in a branch office economy and having a vanilla shopping mall culture acceptable. I don't. Personally, I'm all for Kiwibank's nationalism

How about Kiwibank promote itself on the basis that it offers better services and lower fees?

I wish there was a chinese “public address” so I could read their threads.

It's SkyKiwi, although its audience is younger than ours.

Unless you can read Simplified Chinese text, you won't get anything out of it, but on past form it'll be roiling with declarations of Chinese nationalism from…

the campaign is risible regardless of ownership.

ITA with you on that. You'd just think someone who had to share a caucus room with Winston on a revolving door basis would be a little more sensitive than most. And like you, I don't get all po-faced about a bit of…

Possibly it;'s because the NZ team believe the hype that they're one last push (possibly involving 10 new players) away from being the best cricket team in the world.

Whereas England *know* they're average-to-crap and play a percentage game accordingly.

I don’t think England have been disinterested; more manically conservative, as opposed to our impetuous impatience.

Exactly what cost us a three-test drubbing when NZ played England in 2004. Crippled by injuries we still tried to play like Australians. I had the pleasure of a day at the Leeds test…

This kind of mindless nationalism — and offensively trite allusions to people who, in some cases, risked their lives to protect Kiwi servicemen — is not the kind of message I like SOEs putting out there.

I agree that the campaign has gone too far now – there was always…

I don’t think England have been disinterested; more manically conservative, as opposed to our impetuous impatience.

Why don't we put the evil foreign bankers in kinky boots and black leather greatcoats, folks?

I'd be on for that – you wouldn't??

Well, you'd probably have a more interesting time of it.

Did anyone ever have a sex fantasy involving someone wearing swandris and gumboots?

[That was a…

The Aussies are worse about it though,

Yes and no — remember it was an Aussie by the name of A. A. Phillips coined the term 'cultural cringe' (both classic and inverted). :)

Bur frak it, we're talking about Kiwibank. Doesn't the chairman (a good keen bloke by the name…

Hasn’t the drama around Fleming’s average being a pleasant little diversion from the sad state of things on the field?

England don’t deserve to win though, given their negativity throughout the series; highlighted again this morning by batting on and on and…

I don't know anything about Tibet's history and presumable, like most other countries, Tibet's past is not perfect but I doubt Parenti is the best source of information on this.

Absolutely. I'd be very pleased if the Olympics in its present form was scrapped altogether.

I'm sure every Olympic sport has its own world champs which, in a way, have more gravitas (though less glamour) than the Games.

But it's kinda nice when (almost) everyone comes together and competes.

I'd be on for that – you wouldn't??

But seriously, yes, it is a problem that it's considered ok to wrap xenophobia up in a Swanndri and a pair of gumboots. The Aussies are…

What odds on NZ winning the Test Match? Flem needs 8 more to keep his average above 40...

Don’t forget the shambles that was the CNN Coca Cola Olympics in Atlanta.

New Zealand companies are already involved in sending their knowledge offshore.

That's a bold statement.
NZ companies (Fonterra, Wrightsons – being NZ Farming Uruguay) etc are setting up companies offshore to use the knowledge they have generated here in companies offshore but aren't "sending" it offshore. They are very strict…

Absolutely. I'd be very pleased if the Olympics in its present form was scrapped altogether. A smaller event where participants and host were expected to be decent democratic states, and corporate sponsorship was scrapped would be much better. Of course,…

The Tlateloco Massacre of 1968 prior to the Mexico City Olympics, the SuperPower pissing contests of 1980 and 1984, obviously Hitler's Olympics of 1936.…

I think your comparison might be more valid if the British Empire hadn't decolonised Fiji 38 years ago. The Chinese empire is…

As for the Olympics, they were formed to embrace nations without any political agenda, weren't they?

Sofie... if only. Anyone who thinks that the Olympics and poitics don't have a very intimate and complex connection should have the uncomfortable experience of sitting through this enormously influential film at least once.…

Patience is a virtue, true, but that’s a hell of a patience for people with a life expectancy of 71 years, an increase of 40 years in the…

Oh yes and whatever the latest excuses are for John Key his lack of preparation and seeming lack of knowledge regarding critical policy areas is a very poor look if you contrast it with Helen Clark’s formidable command of all aspects of her government.

Well, when you can get her…

incidentally, india is also a country that has used force to maintain central control. the punjabis tried hard for sovreignity, and i guess…

Sixty-three years ago the Europeans surveyed their ruined cities and finally realised were trying to force people to live in countries they don't want to live in or engaging…

Well, perhaps I'm a little too cynical for my own good but I wonder if its much easier to push things through when you don't have to deal with any pesky political or media scrutiny or arse around with tiresome building, environmental or labour standards.

Yeah, that's the obvious answer,…

But I don't think journalists are doing themselves any favours trying to catch out Key or Cullen because, otherwise, they don't have a tax cut story this week.

And to be fair, a large part of my irritation is that Ruth Laugesen can actually do better. Certainly a damn sight…

Athens was still pulling things together in the weeks leading up to the games, I think I heard that China had basically finished two years in advance. They've put a massive investment into the Olympics.

Well, perhaps I'm a little too cynical for my own good but I wonder if…

My take on it is that the Chinese have too many possibly errant provinces across the country (Taiwan being the obvious one) that to start to give up control/independence here becomes fuel for a much broader fire.

That's how it looks to me. And they don't seem to have the…

For goodness sake. Just say "circumstances change" or something. That's perfectly alright. But please, don’t make a claim to have been misquoted your standard response when it's suggested that you've changed your mind. It's not a very good thing to say to a journalist.

But just to play devil's advocate…

A group of Chinese intellectuals has appealed to the Chinese government "to admit that its policy of crushing dissent in Tibet and blaming the ensuing violence on the Tibetan spiritual…

until a regime change in china, any dissenter anywhere in china/tibet gets to enjoy human rights abuses.

heh heh – you turned a negative into a positive! I know you were being sarcastic, but you've put waterboarding in a whole new light.
__"Why the glum face Mr Terrorist? Let's turn that…

Are you advocating war on China?

Anyone catch Ross Kemp on Gangs and see how similar our Pacific Island Labour programme is to the fascist Russian MPs view of…

until a regime change in china, any dissenter anywhere in china/tibet gets to enjoy human rights abuses.

The more I read/hear about Tibet, the more the Dalai Lama's call for significant degrees of autonomy seems apt.

Yes, it seems the obvious solution. It would be messier in the adjacent provinces, which also have an ethnic mix, but are universally regarded as part of China proper.

True, seemingly…

The more I read/hear about Tibet, the more the Dalai Lama's call for significant degrees of autonomy seems apt.

Yes, it seems the obvious solution. It would be messier in the adjacent provinces, which also have an ethnic mix, but are universally regarded as part of China proper.

Tibet has…

Athens was still pulling things together in the weeks leading up to the games, I think I heard that China had basically finished two years in advance. They've put a massive investment into the Olympics.

Well, perhaps I'm a little too cynical for my own good but I wonder if…

Er, Israel would be the better comparison surely? The Palestinians had the Israeli's forced upon them, just as the Tibetans have had the Chinese forced upon them.

It's not even that simple. Some Tibetans were eager for the Chinese to come in — for obvious reasons — and Tibet itself…

Anyway, when Michael Laws approaches moral certainty in his column, and rails against "this foreign country, foreign culture and foreign moral code", with its dirty toilets and all, it's probably time for the rest of us to take stock.

And, on a slight tangent, could someone please ask Kiwibank [[http://www.jointhemovement.co.nz/|what…

the dali lama freely admits that Tibetans must accept the progress and improvements that China's rule of Tibet has brought.

but not the repression of basic human rights
and the dali lama also does not want independence

Jack yan over on his…

along with building schedules that only make sense in terms of theoretical particle physics

Actually I believe that the Chinese were some impressive period of time _ahead_ of schedule in building all their sites. Athens was still pulling things together in the weeks leading up to the games, I think…

I'm not sure what the impact of an Olympic boycott would be: reading China's human rights record, it's hard to understand how it was awarded the Olympic PR opportunity in the first place

I believe the usual recipie is eye-watering amounts of money expended on lobbying, junkets, slick PR presentations,…

But your Tibet-Was-No-Paradise comments are also apt. I forget who/where (BFM?)(PAS?) but someone has previously pointed out (during his last visit to NZ) that the Dalai Lama has some very conservative views on homosexuality that don't sit well with the image we have of him ...

Well, sure... but some…