James. That's an interesting take. I think I agree. How did you find this…

I've never claimed that I am the one choosing to kill babies. Nor am I justified in taking any action against those who do choose to. You are hereby challenged to re-read this thread and show me where I have forced anyone to do anything.

Last I checked you wanted…

That's an interesting article, James. What is your take on it?

What is my take? That the road to hell is paved with what those doing the paving would insist are good intentions.

Those promoting eugenics thought that they were right and that they were…

You wish to force yourself on others or else you wouldn't be talking about the choice a mother makes. A choice that the last I checked , as a male, you inheriently can not make.

I've never claimed that I am the one choosing to kill babies. Nor am I…

I haven't seen myself forcing anything on anyone. Do you know what "force" means? I think you wish me to retreat to a mountain so you will not have to listen to me.

You wish to force yourself on others or else you wouldn't be talking about the choice a…

Smug

Is that an abbreviation for something? S.mug?

What does the 'S' stand for? :)

Right then.

That's a good start :)

I believe personhood to be a function of a brain that can play host to self-aware consciousness.

What makes your assertion more valid than any other? I assert personhood is a value conferred to people by Almighty God. Neither of us has a…

Just came across this article that is relevant to some of the concepts discussed approvingly in previous posts. You can quite quickly get onto a slippery slope into a dark, dark world.

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=592291

Given that personhood is an abstract concept, not something that can be measured or tested for then it is you, the pro-abort, who relies on distinctions between person and non-person and you, the pro-abort, that needs to find a material explanation for a non-material entity.

Right then.

I believe personhood…

Let's not buy into the line being peddled here for a second longer. Given the blatantly deficient argument interspersed through almost 600 posts I'm now far more curious about the deficient person that lies behind it.

You don't think it is enough that a baby is alive and human at…

Here's what I've noticed so far. Profoundly and wilfully ignorant. Seems fearful of the…

babies at conception

No such thing, unfortunately. You're talking about a fertilised human ovum, which is human (as all human cells are to an extent 'human') and alive (again, as are all living human cells). But whatever, continue.

have the same metaphysical nature as all people

Alive and human I…

This is, of course, a Leap Of Faith:
"We have no conclusive evidence, therefore we must --"

Oh, Linger. Don't do it! We do have evidence and science. The evidence says that at conception a baby is alive and human. The logical conclusion from that is to agree that babies…

1: [...] There will never be a lab experiment that can detect self awareness or weigh the value of…

:squint: Dolphins are people?

Ooh. That is definitely another thread for another day, Grant.

Grant, it wasn’t your fault. You don’t have to take it out on other people though. I know you’re scared but listening to what these people say doesn’t have to threaten who you think you are now. Call your mom – she’d like that.

You're weird :)

But don't worry.…

Hmm. Let's try to parse this. A person by definition is capable of consciousness and thought

:squint: Dolphins are people?

utter cessation of these functions may leave behind a (semi) living human, but probably not a 'person' by any sensible definition. So people with the ability to think versus only…

FFS "parasite" – back to the 70s useless discourse

Whoops – not my intention... I was aware that "parasite" would probably come across as some kind of moral judgment, rather than as a strictly accurate biological definition, but went for it anyway. Hope the rest of my post makes more…

Only too glad to Robyn. Grant is not here on his own free will, if he has any left.

Oxymoron :)

He has been sent here as a troll by the "Collaborators Project" to either "convert" us or have us Label as "Permanent Collaborator Status"

Not so! I am here…

What’s wrong with a mountain? Quite a few wise men of lore were quite content on a mountain top. Why do people who get attached to some particular belief always feel the need to force it on everyone else.

I haven't seen myself forcing anything on anyone. Do you know…

Grant is a hardcore Christian who is never going to change his stance on abortion, no matter how much robust debate is hurled at him.

I think that's the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me. Thanks :)

It would be nice if someone was prepared to test this…

On the other hand your suggestion that this might be my ego and that a mountain is the best place to practice what I believe is just ridiculous and so far off the mark it's not funny.

What’s wrong with a mountain? Quite a few wise men of lore were…

Can we let this go?

Only too glad to Robyn.
Grant is not here on his own free will, if he has any left. He has been sent here as a troll by the "Collaborators Project" to either "convert" us or have us Label as "Permanent Collaborator Status"
Do not…

Can we let this go?

Nice of you to quote me saying this was fun and then suggest silence. You missed the 'fun' part i suppose :-)

Perhaps you truely belive your own BS or, as most likely is the case, you just like throwing up outlandish strawn-man statements because you like the attention the…

I quote this just so you can read it again Grunt. It doesn't make sense does it?
The thing that I find most frustrating about you and your ilk is that you have such double standards. There is no consistency in your judgements unless you confine them to a very…

The fun thing here is that everyone is just arguing semantics.

You should have just remained silent then .. if you believe you have nothing to contribute

Nice of you to quote me saying this was fun and then suggest silence. You missed the 'fun' part i suppose :-)

Perhaps…

Come on you lot! If abortion is really that certain then surely you should be able to defend your positions

I quote this just so you can read it again Grunt. It doesn't make sense does it?
The thing that I find most frustrating about you and your ilk is that…

at this point i retract my thanks to Grant for at least being polite in his belligerence.
Grant, you are obviously a scared and hateful man.
If you have to come to terms with your inner demons you wont find help where you are currently looking. that is the only…

But seriously .. that's all you can find?

Hoist on his own... well, whatever.

Petard.
Which among our French readers will raise a smile if not a guffaw.
A petard is a small explosive device that was, apparently, used to blow off door locks. The key words here are Blow and Off and as every prep-schooler and French linguist,…

Grant, you should join the Westboro Baptist Church of 'God Hates Fags' fame. They sound right up your alley!

Poetry.
Roses are red,
Violets are bluish,
If it wasn't for Paul,
We'd all be Jewish!

There are no words.

Well .. it's a tough issue. For a start there are far too many homos running around. It's really annoying not being able to take more than a few paces outside without having to risk losing one's lunch.

Then there are the adulterers. They should be strung up as an…

For a start there are far too many homos running around.....

at this point i retract my thanks to Grant for at least being polite in his belligerence.

Grant, you are obviously a scared and hateful man.

If you have to come to terms with your inner demons you wont…

Grant Dexter has a Bebo Page, how cool is that?

Where he asks:

What is the greatest social issue of our time? 41 days ago

Well .. it's a tough issue. For a start there are far too many homos running around. It's really annoying not being able to take…

The fun thing here is that everyone is just arguing semantics.

You should have just remained silent then .. if you believe you have nothing to contribute.

:S

Are you right about anything?

Did you get teased a lot at school?

Dear Danielle.

No keyboard macro. Trust me. If I didn't keep reminding you lot about the facts I base my judgments upon you'd make up something else in order to ridicule what I say. So…

The facts are that at conception a baby is alive and human.

Has anyone done a running tally on how many times dude has written this sentence? Do you have a keyboard macro for it, Grant?

I'm going to start doing this myself. 'The facts are that I look like…

Of course people do judge others. But if there's any consistent thread in Christian teachings, it is that any judgements people make should be made compassionately, as persons, with the full awareness of their own limitations as individuals. Most of the time, you seem to be judging instead as…

Grant, you still haven't answered that all-important question.
Your comments about ectopic pregnancies seem to suggest that you may not yet be adequately prepared to judge the decisions of others in that situation. (I know I'm not: I don't have enough relevant enough experience to fully place myself in that…

Do you know what an ectopic pregnancy is? That's one situation I can think of that sometimes results in exactly that scenario, and is still a significant cause of maternal death.

What scenario? That the baby has to be delivered in order to save the mother? If you wanted to…

Do you know what an ectopic pregnancy is? That's one situation I can think of that sometimes results in exactly that scenario, and is still a significant cause of maternal death. Another…

this overuse of 'patriarchy' as opposed 'misogyny' confuses me quite alot.

I think I am the only one who has used that word so far (?) but anyway........I am reasonably happy to replace it with misogyny. My choice of the word was partly because it is so old school and…

Sorry, I don't accept this line of thought & didn't you said you've rejected infantacide.

I also think babies in the womb…

Do you know who He was talking to when He said, "Judge rightly"?

No. What's the point?

Oh. So you think Linger is a Christian? Whatever gave you that idea?

Do you know who Jesus was talking to when he said, "Do not judge"?

Do you know who He was talking to when He said, "Judge rightly"?

Maybe someone here could help me out with that one.

I also see the replaced Patriachy, of the Nanny State to be seriously wanting in supporting women & babies.

nice quote shep.

this overuse of 'patriarchy' as opposed 'misogyny' confuses me quite alot.

So I am not offering a solution to the issue but rather asking questions, and pointing out what I see as a…

You state your justification for abortion, would also 'justify' infanticide. You go on to say that you reject infantacide for other reasons.

This still leads to the 'justification' of infantacide.

You need to form an argument to do one, but not the other,…

Deborah, to defend abortion by 'justifying' infantacide, through your argument of "full human being" is simply wrong IMHO.

Your stance of 'full human being' has been used to 'justify' T4, the Shoah, 'modern slavery' (USA etc) & Apartheid....…

you deny babies at conception personhood

Read more carefully. I deny nothing, other than that those terms are loaded, and that there are other possible ways of seeing the issue. As far as I see it, I do not have any right to any final opinion on that question. I…

Not ignoring the issue at all, I am largely with Deborah as far as that goes but arguing it with you would be pointless because your view is set and not open to scientific reasoning. I am willing to engage on other aspects of this issue and with other…

If you're prepared to ignore the issue of personhood then you must deem the idea that 'babies at conception are people' is irrelevant. On what basis do you advocate the right to kill people for reasons such as convenience, state of mind, medical complication, rape, financial concerns or relationship…

Grant: mu.

What's an mu?

I would accept that we do not currently have any single empirical test with a result that would be agreed upon by all observers in all cases. But that doesn't mean that an empirical definition is impossible in principle for all purposes, or that we…

Mark. I know you didn't. I said you did based on what you defined as a person. I assumed that you just didn't have a clue what you were saying. I think I was right.

but not all killing of people is murder,

i didn't say i support murder.

It would be good to open a wider conversation and the fact that women are the ones…

Sorry if that wasn't clear. I was addressing the general "reading but not commenting" types at that point.

"women in NZ now have a choice to only bring life into the world when they can and want to make the sacrifices necessary to raise a child"

– I am SO in agreement with this! As are…

Shakes head. Goes, has a whisky. Determines that never again shall I be…

But for the shortage I've no issue with eating whales and am rather keen to chomp on cheval.

I want a dolphin burger!

Actually, that's an assertion without evidence (as you yourself acknowledged by prefacing the original claim with "I'm willing to bet...").

Sure. And it's an assertion I am not willing to test. Though I can guarantee you that every baby will react adversely to being assaulted whether in the womb or…

My simple point was that babies do not take kindly to being assaulted

Actually, that's an assertion without evidence (as you yourself acknowledged by prefacing the original claim with "I'm willing to bet...").

people are being killed

[...and again...]

the fact that babies are being killed

But, for at least…

I'm willing to bet that every scientific test you can imagine will show a baby reacting adversely to the introduction of alien objects into his living space and will do everything he can to avoid being killed.

What? This is an ability that not even toddlers are noted for, wrt…

Do they all get sent to jail for murder?

No.

But... why not? Are you anti-jail-sentences for all murders, or just these particular ones?

Anybody can speak for the child. That's free speech for you.

THANKS! :)

But nevertheless, nobody else gets to decide for the mother.

I know.

I don't want to claim that the life of a foetus isn't also worthy of consideration — but that, too, is up to the mother…

Yeesh. Grant, la-la-land is on the line. They're interested in how you got so divorced from reality.

Reality is that abortion ends the life of a person. Reality is that ending abortion will end the state sanctioned termination of human lives. Reality is that we already have people who break…

Who speaks for the [unborn] child?

Anybody can speak for the child. That's free speech for you.
But nevertheless, nobody else gets to decide for the mother.
I don't want to claim that the life of a foetus isn't also worthy of consideration — but that, too, is up to…

Do you have no idea of recent social history?

The story around abortion law reform in the 1970s is indeed a fascinating and important one. Right now, it would make a good lead story for a weekend newspaper feature section. Or even The Listener.

Who knows, perhaps the bleak picture of the future you imagine will not come to pass.

Yeesh. Grant, la-la-land is on the line. They're interested in how you got so divorced from reality.

Anyway. I have a question for you: in this utopian/authoritarian future of yours, where the apple-cheeked milkmaids…

Women have been ending unwanted pregnancies for millennia. I don't mean to sound flippant, I'm just stating a fact.
Sometimes their methods worked well; the women didn't die or become infertile.

You are being flippant and you are stating a fact. Another fact is that men have been committing…

Forced pregnancy is no happier a situation than infertility.

What is forced about a pregnancy? Is it not the parent's responsibility to deal with that which they have produced? The choice to terminate, even the thought of it as an option, is an instant sign of a lack of…

If you wish to make people feel guilty about choosing abortion, call it murder. Call it infanticide. Call it whatever you like. But remember, that ultimately, it is not your body. It is not your womb. It is not your call.

No, it is not anyone else's decision. Full…

Yes.

As far as *I* am concerned anyway (and naturally, I would have due concern about my duties and responsibilities as a family member, as a friend – but ultimately, it would be my decision to…

Linger – OK so it's my body I can kill myself if I want to – right?

In principle, yes. There may be other stakeholders, people who know you well, who may be entitled to argue against it; but as a very general principle, you are the majority stakeholder in…

Linger – OK…

I don't accept a women has a greater role in democracy than a man [...but...] one foot at din[n]er time is enough

Good decision to stop there — 'cos of course a woman's body is necessarily a "democracy" of one woman, one vote... even in a democracy, we don't all…

Other times they didn't end well.

If you want to take away the legal rights of women to choose…

I was trying to drive to the essential human concerns we all share and therefore are as valid as each other, which is why I went to draw the comparrison between an infertile woman & a man.…

Let me endorse what Jackie said, hugely.

And back in the days when I was weeping because my arms were empty, it never, ever occurred to me that I…

Following your arguement, why does your opinion count more than mine?

1: Personhood has not been categorised as belonging to a single characteristic or stage and never will be. This supports my assertion that personhood is a thing recognised with good judgment. It takes good judgment to recognise that memories and perception…

Also, Kyle, girls don't usually like it when you compare them to inanimate bodies of water. Just a heads up ;)

What? First they don't like being seen as incubators, then they're anti being brood mares, and now we're down on the whole bodies of water thing?

Does that mean…

By the same logic, I don't have to allow a potential human to occupy my uterus.
Even if that means terminating a pregnancy.
You are…

I'm not trying to wind you up, but if a better position is to be found it's not through opening the doors to Tiergartenstraße…

Danielle – still backing Deborah's stand on the 'justification' on infanticide?

I'm not sure what your deal is with that. She isn't saying she's pro-infanticide, she's saying her ethical/philosophical stance on abortion could also be used to justify infanticide. There's a huge difference.

I'm all about the simplicity, anyway: I'm…

My favourite aspect of this whole argument – and, in fact, these arguments in general – is the way the woman hosting the all-important foetus is apparently a total afterthought.

If the baby is a tadpole/frog, then I'm sorry to break this to you, but you're a fishbowl/pond/creek. Feel free…

This really feels like an argument about whether a tadpole is a frog

My favourite aspect of this whole argument – and, in fact, these arguments in general – is the way the woman hosting the all-important foetus is apparently a total afterthought. I can imagine her, this Everywomb: 'Hi!…

It is a modern day belief that a baby at conception is alive. It is a modern day belief that a baby at conception is human.

This really feels like an argument about whether a tadpole is a frog, in 'modern day belief', whatever that means.

I did not intend the "differentiation" criterion as any scaleable "amount…

I don't believe i have supported someone committing murder, as you said Grant

Well, like you say, "justification is relative". What you think has no bearing on what I think. Nor would what you think have any bearing on what the law says if you were to be charged for…

You cannot accept a label of baby based on general usage. I can understand that, but the idea that my usage of that term (correctly or incorrectly) has any impact…

Actually, after putting all of those criteria in one place and comparing them, I may have to modify my usage description slightly, namely: "baby" may be used even before birth, at…

Killing is not necessarily murder.

If you reread, you'll find I never said i supported someone commiting murder, You should keep your reading glasses on at all times, and really make an effort to stop putting words…

Those that developed counting without zero start at age one from birth, and others still don't care about the day.
If you're born in that year you are x years…

Grant said: the same old tired medieval beliefs over and over and over like a deeply boring stuck record that nobody is listening to and nobody accepts. Yet still it goes around and around and around, signifying and dignifying nothing.

It is a modern day belief that a baby at…

I hear ya Peter, I just want to see if this ball of twine unravels.

We'll see. We'll see....

Grant, I don't believe I am taking lives, in fact I'm not.

You believe you have supported someone committing murder. You declared that the detection of a baby was evidence enough…

Um Kyle, I wrote that...

I know. You wrote that in response to me, I was just saying that it was a sensible explanation.

Sorry if the sensible discussion and seeking out of intelligent thoughts was getting in the way of the other 20 pages of posts ;)

;-)

cheers n/n Islander (who really hasnt organised an unholy alliance between peripatus…

Knowledge that comes with error bars and probability measurements is called science. Knowledge that doesn't have these is what we call beliefs, we have beliefs about things we have an absence of or an incomplete knowledge of and are guesses about what might be there.

K, that's a fair and…

Rich – I followed the statement with the one fact we can all agree on. We don't know it all – the only absolute fact we really know.

I don't dispute scientific rigour, but would like it to share the space a bit with other ways of knowing

Agreed. The…

Grant, I don't believe I am taking lives, in fact I'm not. and if i were taking lives, i'd most likely feel i was justified, because most actions we take are justifiable to the self.…

Let me clue you in – it is never necessary to commit murder.

Conception Fact 1: Life.
Conception Fact 2: Human.

Forehand volley.

So I agree with the fact that we can abort babies, but what I'm asking you here is, "Why?"

I don't know enough about the science of the issue to comment on when exactly personhood comes to pass. I don't think it's relevant to my outlook. i guess when the pregnancy test comes back positive. maybe when the scientists say personhood comes to pass.

This is directly at odds…

sometime in that brief time period between conception and birth.

Which I took to mean you think a baby turns into a person sometime after conception. Is that what you think? If you do think that there is a time when a baby is not a person why…