__The Guardian and The Independent: The decline in popularity of Geert Wilders and his Party for Freedon (PVV) in the Netherlands can be traced back to two months ago when a 63 year old Turkish man was attacked, and later died from his injuries.…

Stephen Price and Thomas Beagle, 6th September, University of Otago.

Media Law Journal: Defending the Law Commission

Yet, Cheer is adamant: unfettered speech leads to debate. From many voices, she says, a kind of rational middle ground will emerge that will expose extremist views for what they are.

And giving voice to all points of view, no…

Great reminder of what Ansell, Brash and chums achieved at the time in NZ. I agree with this guy quoted in the story, but am no clearer about how to make it actually work without tipping the balance towards the ridiculous:

Clearly the discussion isn’t about whether…

More in this hoary old chestnut from the Listener.

I'd suggest Rep. Akin is entitled to display his dangerous belief that the wombs of virtuous women can magically repel rapist semen to the same extent as any other moronic fuckwit, but I remain unconvinced it deserves some higher degree of protection simply because he's mouth-farting in…

And website moderators have to be able to say, not on my lawn you don’t . Blogs are not public spaces any more than shopping malls are.

Feel free to spend your weekend categorising the statutes of…

I do. And my understanding is that is actually how the legal system currently works. It is designed in the knowledge that there will be some times when it is inappropriate to apply the letter of the…

Word.

Or does everyone go before the tribunal and the ones who weren't really serious maybe they get let off?

Because Paul Chambers was convicted for his stupid "I'm blowing the airport sky high!" joke, and it took…

It's drawn case by case. In each case you are dealing with individuals. Some may be more or less susceptible to harm. But the fact remains that some people are harmed, sometimes…

Agree.

People have to be able to express "wrong" opinions. Even stupid, racist, homophobic, misogynist, anti-semitic, anti-religious, anti-whatever opinions.

I think that's the problem for me. While that law is good in its simplicity I don't believe it has done enough to prevent harm over that period.…

Yes it does.

As does Harry Hammond's sign in the UK which read "Jesus Gives Peace, Jesus is Alive, Stop Immorality, Stop Homosexuality, Stop Lesbianism, Jesus is Lord" should not have resulted in…

Slippery slope argument.

You appear to be arguing that because a law protecting a king from insult is (in our opinion) stupid and unjust then protecting people from the harm that internet bullying does should not be pursued.

I agree someone (presumably experienced members of…

Which is something I'm a little ambiguous about, because let's be frank... does Todd Akin's "legitimate rape" fuck-wittery deserve such protection simply because it's "political speech"?

That might be what the Commission's paper says, but the Commission's draft bill does not. It only says:

__In exercising its functions, the tribunal must have regard…

What's "political" speech? A Kiwirail report on poor maintenance standards?

(Which a District Court* judge, who under this proposed law would be the trusted gatekeeper of free speech, was happy to injunct, presumably on confidentiality grounds).

* might have…

Written supreme constitutions merely shift the argument to a pseudo-judicial forum. No real benefit.

Stephen: yeah, I agree…

No we absolutely do not have one.

Because what I mean is a written constitution that codifies our many freedoms, in a form that can't be overruled by ordinary laws as passed by parliament.

Basically what the BORA was originally proposed to be, but…

Like the US? Heaven forfend.

That old excuse! :-)

Good news! We already have one.

True. Otoh, we remember that one because it was such an outlier.

That's just how it starts. Then pretty soon there's the running and the screaming, the police water canons, and the gulags.

Which I don't think is what the Commission means, but it has certainly left itself open to that…

No. But that’s what the Commission’s paper is very explicitly not proposing. It says that political speech requires the…

Do we want…

Given what happened when Kerry Bolton complained to the BSA about Scott Hamilton's comments on National Radio, I'm not entirely sanguine about that.

Absolutely. But it's going to happen. Especially in other "rooms". And in fact I think that context, or social consensus, is what defines being a dick.…

If it got to the level of the Tribunal, my hope and expectation would be that it would swiftly be dispatched, the…

Not very often, to be honest. I think it's more often the case…

On another note, the first rule of PAS is all very well, but as has been pointed out on other occasions, sometimes…

Cut out and keep.

Not sure. I do know that Google, for all it tries not to,…

I'm not really sure that's even true — there has been some rather lolsob arguments going on in geekdom around sexism both online (the truly gastly on-line harassment of Anita Sarkassian) and in meat…

The irony for me being that politicians can stand up in the House and make allegations that would be actionably defamatory in any other forum, and for which the defamed party has precisely…

And that doesn't include the crazy shit going on around teens and sexting, which is…

I do wonder if there is a legitimate role for 'nasty shit people posted about me on an overseas web site'. A tribunal might help smooth jurisdictional issues because it doesn't go down…

"And in a number of American states there are statutes which make it an offence to send electronic communications without legitimate purpose which would cause a reasonable person to suffer substantial emotional distress." Footnote 159.

Just saying!

Seems not to be that much of a problem…

Which can also happen online.

The argument they are making is that prosecutions are currently possible but too hard, I…

Extremely unlikely. The LawComm does at least emphasise that political speech requires a high degree of protection.

So this would proscribe the internet equivalent of flag-burning? Notwithstanding Morse v Police.

Principle 7 — A communication should not contain a matter that is published in breach of confidence.

Does Trevor Mallard…

Then I counter attack and get their stuff taken down as well :P

I think that depends who you ask. Digital Natives have already adapted…

I remember when (in the UK, maybe elsewhere) 'phone phreakers' were charged with 'theft of electricity'.

Though as…

Unless the pro-religious sites got in first and accused you of hating on a religion or culture.

Yes, I know. Like many, I had a fairly horrible childhood.

I don't however think if we had had the cops round the school on a weekly basis and the bullies arrested and charged, it would necessarily have worked. (If you locked up…

Not in those terms, but there are clearly laws you might think should apply to the Internet which do not, for example, the offence of "misuse of a telephone device". Why should something…

a teenager unable to stop pictures of her being sexually violated distributed electronically

Which would be objectionable material under s.3.2.b of the Films and Video Classification Act, and s1.a if she was under age. That's a serious offence already.

,…

Although I can largely answer now. There are clearly circumstances in which a low level Communications Tribunal will enable people to obtain a solution to a problem that they could not have obtained otherwise.

However using factual scenarios from the past where…

There's also a strong punitive element, with anyone disobeying such an order being up for a criminal conviction with a fine…

Going for a bike ride. Will try later.

Given that there was essentially no penalty, what would be so different about…

Happy to help. Would you like to pull a scenario or two from the Briefing Paper for me to address?

I’d guess they’d be the domain of the proposed new offence rather than the Tribunal. But what…

There's another very important difference as Martin Cocker points out
Assume a harmful billboard was put up. The person being targeting would almost certainly receive support from other members of…

That’s essentially Martin Cocker of Netsafe’s response to the “billboard” argument:

It is very difficult to put up billboards everywhere somebody goes. It is extremely easy to…

The Herald retracted its publication of the same claims,…

I disagree, respectfully and politely of course. I've seen behaviour in online environment that the same people would never consider in the real world. I know that's true because I've known some of the people in the real world and they just don't…

That seems to me to be the greatest weakness for a tribunal. Just too damn hard to get all the information and make the right judgement.…

Does this have any impact in relation to "whsitleblower" laws ?

Like Lilith I don't think that is necessarily true.

However, I do think it highlights something interesting.

For the most part this community is civil, polite and caring of each other – we each have bad days but…

The problem is "I". What one person thinks is worth proscribing is always different from what another person thinks is worth proscribing. You might think it a waste of good police time but I might find it important enough.

Essentially this is…

That never stopped Cameron Slater.

Personally, I don't think pseudonyms/pen names are the problem. You and I and plenty of others here use them here on PAS, yet we mostly…

Agreed. Censorship isn't the way to deal with trolls – it only plays into their hands. What might work, though, is to expose them and blow their cover, and…

Too much policing of speech can be very stifling. It can be just as bullying as some of the hatey trolls.

I'm not at all defending the scum who won't get out of the…

I personally have a virulent objection to the unnecessary use of horns in the Mt Vic tunnel. Oh, and to people claiming superior knowledge of a wide variety of topics with no ascertainable basis. Not to mention dressing…

Unless you are a lawyer. It looks likely such legislation will afford many lawyers the opportunity to make a lot of money.

It is vague, it is reliant upon the subjectivity of…

Being of a more mischievous bent, I’d be inclined to:
a) try and submit the first complaint in the form of “First!”
b) submit a complaint that the notices of tribunal decisions cause me emotional harm with their…

The other thing that strikes me as problematic is the sheer volume of argument on the internet. Even if you restrict the field to NZ-based sites (not sure how they're planning to do…

No.

+1. There's also s 27 of the NZ Bill of Rights Act.

But the no appeal for defendants bit is exceedingly odd.

I would have thought that being able to defend yourself from accusations was important enough that it should have been mentioned explicitly (with possible exceptions when the defendant…

I believe that the Human Rights Act s21 covers discrimination based on those (as well as…

Actually the Bill does require that the Tribunal comply with the principles of natural justice, which would require that affected parties be given an opportunity to be heard.

And that's what I'm primarily concerned about. Complaints, even vexatious ones, are hassle. They require time, attention, and possibly money and lawyers, to defend. And that applies regardless of the merits. We've already…

While this would be AWESOME in one way, it completely violates these peoples rights to free speech and my right to call these…

There is no requirement for the defendant to be heard or to have a chance to put their case forward.

The complainant can appeal a decision to an Appeal Tribunal (made up of two District Court judges).

The…