Fair cop. I even knew that.

In positing a construct with a legal outcome, not knowing the law meant your scenario looked ridiculous and withstood no scrutiny. You don't know what preventative detention is used for or how it operates, but you're against it.…

You'll note that I have not used any of the legal jargon…

Murder is a form of culpable homicide, along with manslaughter, and distinct from infanticide where there is accepted to be a “disturbance of the…

That is pretty much what I was alluding to. Or…

I kinda figured that after I posted ;-)

Forgive me for chopping out much of…

And for them to be kept inside beyond the court-imposed non-parole period, the Parole Board must continue to be satisfied that the prisoner continues to be likely to commit those particular crimes. Preventative detention is not…

Yeah but just “we think they might” commit a crime isn’t enough. The court…

You mean when it was all those defined as citizens that were allowed to vote and who gladly resorted to poison and assassination if the vote went against their personal wishes all the while happily using the non-citizens as slaves.

Ah history, so…

When it comes to sex offenders, who are the people who fit into both camps of "sterilisation" and "preventative detention" as ways to curtail their offending, NZ actually does try and do proper rehabilitation.…

And the Liberal Democratic Parties in Russia…

The rule of thumb for countries is that the more they pronounce…

It only has to happen once for my argument to be valid. I think it only has to be possible for my argument to be valid.

It would also seem to me that…

No, but you repeatedly say that other things are so much worse than prison that it's not even worth mentioning the imprisonment. In case you're not aware, accused…

Killing, yes. Producing, no. Once someone's in jail for a reasonable term for the latter, the former becomes a bit academic anyway. I'm struggling to think of an example where…

Moz,…

My response is “is it better than being beaten to…

Fair point. It might be splitting hairs a bit, but "not an acceptable solution to anything" isn't quite the same in my mind to "it is never ok to forcibly sterilise anyone". The first…

On a completely separate note, I'd be up for a discussion of the many and various meanings given to "democratic" and which of them can usefully be…

Possibly a different B Jones said:

I’d hope that in this day and age, only a very small minority of people would think compulsory sterilisation is an acceptable solution to anything.

Was my paraphrasing of that…

Where? That's not the same as noting that forced sterilisation is generally considered a human rights violation.

I thought it easier to establish that there are conditions under which sterilisation is a good idea.

Again, where?

I'll…

I actually said that I'm not convinced of the one but supportive of the other, and I see it as a "where do we draw the line" exercise. But faced with a flat "it is never ok to sterilise someone"…

The fact that laws are enacted by parliamentary majorities is very important, but I don’t think it completely determines whether a law has been passed in a democratic way.

We…

Actually, I think that’s exactly why they get it, to prevent them from committing further crimes. Not given lightly, but there are some who just continue…

I haven't said anything about indefinite imprisonment, but it's worth noting that at least it can be undone. Restricting someone's liberty comes into…

Since you asked –

The change in Sweden happened gradually over about 20 years.

Before 1957 the law allowed parents to beat their children so long as they weren't injured.

From 1957 to 1966…

ends in tears :)

Yes, and he did seem to have a very judgey-pants…

I could be wrong, but I don't think people get PD just because it is considered that they might commit a crime upon…

:-)

Widely spoken in Britain before England existed?

You're quite right, of course! Just I take issue with the whole "corruption of language" thing. Looked at another way, Latin outside of the church evolved and blossomed into the Romance languages. And (indirectly) gave us the richness and depth of vocabulary that English…

My guess is that faced with the choice between sterilisation and indefinite imprisonment some people will choose the former. I would like to…

So why is forced sterilisation considered a gross abuse of someone's human rights, then? The sort of thing governments around the world apologize for? Taking away a repeat abuser's kids at birth is most comparable to being…

But with jail, including preventive detention, there is the…

Chiang Ching-kuo, educated in Stalin's Soviet Union, inherited the Republic of China, then long since reduced to Taiwan and its outlying islands, though still officially waiting for the chance to retake the Mainland from those commie bandits, from his father Chiang Kai-shek and…

Apparently I'm way out on the fringe thinking that permanently imprisoning someone because we think they might commit crimes if released is an awful…

That's one hell of an if. I'd hope that in this day and age, only a very small minority of people would think compulsory sterilisation is an acceptable solution to anything.

Benevolent wise dictatorship is the best form of governance. The trick is finding a benevolent one.

If that was a reply to my post above, I was…

I agree it’s problematic, just as democracy is a problematic system of government. The question I have is “what’s better”. To me the problem is how many of…

*not me. I am not a spanker, or pro-spanking. FWIW.

Made up nonsense number is made up

Yes, Vulgar Latin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8

Vulgar Latin!? We never got taught that in school, more's the pity!

The language of ancient Rome was LATIN, and Latin continued to be spoken and to evolve within the Christian church for more than a thousand years…

Confining ourselves to Europe, in that case it's also something about French, Italian, Turkish, German, Lithuanian, Latvian, ....

I get the impression that it is the adult's lack of being able to use any language to express their disapproval…

Do you think it's the English language that drives…

I think Bradford's campaign was dishonest, that her tactics set the stage for one of the most unpleasant public debates of the last decade, and that the overall result was undemocratic. I think that's enough reasons to disapprove of…

Well, how did it work in Sweden? Their initial law change didn't amend their criminal law.

We’re going to start driving on the other side of the road, but the change will be introduced gradually.

But seriously, how would a graduated system be anything but confusing and unclear?

As with any assault, it’s unlikely to be…

I think you're right, that would be a really unfortunate position to take.

Those were the kinds of…

There were a range of ways in which New Zealand could have responded to concerns about the use of physical discipline. Funding for at-risk families could have been increased, education…

The term you're looking for is tyranny of the majority, usually put as "two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for…

Sometimes it just has to be done, regardless of public opinion at the time. If public opinion was the gauge, we'd still have criminalised homosexuality, spousal rape would remain a legal impossibility, the death…

We can all reflect on what a win this was for democracy the next time Parliament passes fiercely contested social legislation in the face…

The nanny state?

Watching scientists try to compare bad parenting with state care (foster parents, residential facilities, prisons) is both enthralling and terrifying. IIRC the gap between prison and residential care is often disturbingly small,…

And even then it was only abuse if you got a particularly unfortunate draw with the jury. Was it "Timaru Lady" who not only got away with a riding crop but also with a length of…

Radio New Zealand has followed up on Craig's interview and established that his claims about Australian smacking law were bullshit.

Remember where you read it first, folks :-)

God
Angels
Kings/Queens
Archbishops
Dukes/Duchesses
Bishops
Marquises/Marchionesses
Earls/Countesses
Viscounts/Viscountesses
Barons/Baronesses
Abbots/Deacons
Knights/Local Officials
Ladies-in-Waiting
Priests/Monks
Squires
Pages
Messengers
Merchants/Shopkeepers
Tradesmen
Yeomen Farmers
Soldiers/Town Watch
Household Servants
Tennant Farmers
Shephards/Herders
Beggars
Actors
Thieves/Pirates
Gypsies
Animals
Birds
Worms…

That's a feature, not a bug. It's no coincidence that authoritarian worldviews go hand in hand with authoritarian parenting practices. Authoritarian communities invest a lot of energy in the latter – see Babywise/Growing Children God's Way, To Train Up A…

Yes. But there's a tricky balance between a resilient implement and one that gives the satisfaction of a good solid impact. Wooden spoons were just too expensive since they broke so…

I'm not sure that statistics like that are ever kept, but there were a few higher profile examples involving hoses and the like. I'm sure someone can…

Are there any figures on how often this defense was used successfully? I'm not trying to start a debate on it, just interested.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/9611678/Woman-assaults-daughter-with-jandal

Being smacked with a jandal or a belt was fairly common when I was a kid in the 70s (not for me though). Nice to see it is now called what it is: "assault".

However....the Herald and the Dom Post are past masters at dog whistling in a dozen news stories…and then repudiating that message in an editorial read by far fewer people. This way they look “balanced"….but they know full well the overall…

http://www.werewolf.co.nz

The anti-smacking bill advanced by Green MP Sue Bradford became a bipartisan step when John Key, as Opposition Leader, offered to help Helen Clark get it through the final stages in Parliament. Its passage was a profound statement of public standards even if most young parents had…

Well done Graeme, for always bringing it back to the facts, why MSM can't do that itself also eludes me, it should be a Galvanic reaction to check all facts are…

An account which the NZH was more than happy to air at length, and spin so hard a low humming could heard from several miles away. 'battling kiwi musician just doing the best he can, etc etc.'

A phrase we'll hear more of in this year of desperate horsetrading. Charter schools, anyone?

If they no longer support…

I have no doubt that this is almost always true.

There was a brief moment when I was in primary school…

There's also this summary from the APA (American Psychological Association):
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

Thank you Kyle. But do you have the link in something other than that ow.ly format? I can't open it, but would like to pass it around to a few others.

There were a few others as well, mostly in the Armed Forces Discipline Act (cowardice etc.).

New Zealand had the death penalty for murder up until 1961, when it was abolished in a free vote in Parliament. The death penalty for treason was abolished in 1989.

Which semi-confirms the impression I had that on the day before the death penalty was abolished…

Children are sometimes asked. The Herald interviewed a class of students in 2009, for example, while the law change was going through.

David Farrar [[http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/07/corporal_punishment.html|recalls conducting his…

Te Ara says:

The minister of education abolished corporal punishment in 1987, though it was not legislated against until 1990.

I don't think those calls ever went away.

I have no idea what the evidence was, or whether it was credible.

My understanding is that the 1979 law change in Sweden did not amend the criminal law, as happened here. CNN's description here accords…

More concern-trolling doesn't negate the earlier concern-trolling.

__"Bad things might happen – although they haven't yet – they might, and if they do, they might happen to [vulnerable group], and I'm…

Except my facts weren’t wrong. That’s what the evidence was. I was aware he eventually managed to get the court to throw out the charge because of the way it was framed.

Do you…

I'm always with the facts. Especially in comments threads to posts about people getting facts wrong.

Section 59 was not repealed. The level of force permitted by section 59 has not changed, merely the circumstances in which…

He was, yes, on a technicality over the way the original two charges were framed together.

But I'm not aware that the evidence of the eyewitnesses and the policewoman was found wanting, so I'm not sure why…

Yes and no. That was when the law change was, but there had been a policy change a few years earlier…

I left home during high school because
of the physical abuse and have nothing further to do with my mother
other than through countless family court hearings with me trying to
get my brothers and sisters removed from…

Jimmy…

+1

I don't think the the Sky is falling. And if it ever does fall, it's probably not going to fall on respectable white middle class people like me.

Can you say with as much confidence that your life would have been worse if your mother had not smacked you and your…

Colin Craig says his smacking is the “flick of a finger on the back of a knuckle”. Which I’m fairly…

I blame all them too. But I also blame the lawyers. I'm good at blame :). It's…

Er, I don't. Or at least, I haven't seen that eveidence

I do not believe smacking…

Lawyers do serve society by arguing that their clients should be protected by…

As mentioned earlier, this isn't an academic argument. If you think the sky is falling, you need to provide the evidence.

Otherwise you're riding the same truthy boat as Colin Craig.

+1

I vote for "anti-assault-on-a-child-with-a-deadly-weapon-law"

Because far from being used a a…

Was it that late? By 1989 I had attended 7 schools and I honestly don't recall ever being strapped or seeing or even hearing about anybody else being strapped. Nevertheless, the strap was something we all knew about and it was still a…

The trouble with comments like yours is that they effectively deny the abuse that others experienced ever took place. I thought it clear…

I believe it's a combination of the two.

Did that come up before or after the compromises that were in the bill as it passed? The ones that specifically allow for the use of force to keep…

That's the one I'm referring to above. Terrible things were allowed to happen as a result of that acquittal.

The word hitting is broader than the word smacking.…

We all make mistakes.

I thought Chester Borrows' proposed amendment, as adopted in John Boscawen's member's bill was a reasonable first attempt…

Sorry, all I read was "everything else you said was correct but I can't ever admit I'm wrong."

Your understanding of the law around assaults on animals is mistaken.

And/or: what do you think of…

It's not about evidence of harm Graeme. It's about the absurdity of a law that protected everyone in society except for defenceless children.

You've got it backwards. Assault is a crime. But before the law change, there was a part of the Crimes Act that __specifically…

Let's stop calling what that law change was tackling 'smacking' shall we. That's lazily repeating the spin of its opponents. Thrashing children with hunks of timber and suchlike is not a 'smack'. It has always been child assault.

It will sometimes be true, and will sometimes not be true. I anticipate that the ratio differs between instances of smacking…

You can make the same argument for any family violence. And it’s true. But should it be legal to only assault people you…

This one's actually worse than the marijuana example. There's nothing commendable about…

That's how the failure to prosecute spousal abuse used to be rationalised. Consequences for the battered wife (and the kids) might be be even worse if the husband were convicted.

I am not assuming that. I am open to the possibility that it is true for at least some people, in part based…

In fact had it been an option there's a chance I'd have shopped him myself.

It is neither safe nor logical to…

No it's not. I'm talking about actual cases I know of in the criminal justice system where this happened (a child assault case, not a smacking case).

You are correct on this point.

Nope. All seven of the parents convicted in the first five years after the law change, at which point police stopped recording. There aren't data on what has happened in the…

All seven of the parents convicted in the past five years struck their children in the head or face. Surely we don't want the law to express tacit approval of that…

But, Graeme, once again this is not…

It is certainly a different claim. I haven't seen evidence on the position you describe Craig as advancing, but it strikes me as an…

Craig's argument is, literally, that NZ's "anti-smacking law" increases child abuse. That's a much stronger claim than you're making, and one that is rightly being pilloried.…

Mostly, I'm talking about the consequences for the child, of a criminal conviction of a parent who has smacked.

If I get…

The consequences of which can be a criminal charge, including a bail condition that you not associate with your children (who are witnesses)…

From one of the links in the post:

Police say they have prosecuted just eight parents for smacking children in the five years since the law came in. Seven of those parents…

Surely the long term goal is for a change in attitudes…

It's a very, very big stretch to make that comparison. There are…

That was certainly the justification (or one of the justifications). The law change went further than…

While I haven't been paying close attention, I don't think we have any parents now with…

What does the potential imposition of a criminal record for parents like Colin Craig (except in all likelihood, poorer and browner) add that helps this situation?…

Truthiness indeed.

But that made a big difference. "Children" is quite non-specific, but when there's mention of the Craig daughter, the focus is on this…

But I worry that at least 5% of the population just doesn't care that it's not true because they still think it's right.