Does anyone seriously believe that the Iranians are not in Iraq up to their eyeballs? Some of it legitimate government to government and other type activity, but plenty of it being support for the Shia militias to advance their goal of getting the US…

As far as posting nutty links goes, I think the Australian or the Times, leaning to the right as they…

Why do you hate our exporters so much?

Lets not let the phrase die, it works so well on so many levels!

http://christopherhitchenswatch.blogspot.com/2007/02/little-local-difficulty.html

Also-Well known New Zealand gay code word for male sperm, as in "I bet he supps the Whale Oil on…

Slide 15 of the evidence is a picture of some Iranian anti-tank rockets marked LOT: 5-31-2006

I'm not going to say based on that that they are fakes, but that date is in a strangely American format. So either it's a really stupid fake, or…

I went to Grammar and I was not well fed and I never wore or wear boat shoes or chambrey, honest.

If one looks at the photos of Mr Slater – nee Whaleoil – on his blog (which I won't link to because his children are in them) we can…

I don't think James is a troll and I think it's unfair that every time he posts – usually with a lucid viewpoint and links to support his claims – people pile on and dismiss him as a troll or right-wing nut.

I agree, but the problem tends to be…

Or is it, after all it is on Wikipedia!

I don't think James is a troll and I think it's unfair that every time he posts – usually with a lucid viewpoint and…

Mr Oil, a well-fed Auckland Grammar boy if the truth be known

[shocked look!!]

snigger.... so he's actually wearing chambrey and boat shoes.

if sonic actually gets jumped in a dark alley in the next few weeks, at least whale will be well-dressed when he's charged as the primary suspect.

Anyway all done now, and a legendary internet thread is born.

We'll be telling our grandkids about it, when they as what was the origin of the term "Whale-Oil"

You are right Russell, I was a bit over the top, got annoyed at people threatening Phil.

Aw yeah, but you didn't run off and make a whole new blog thread for you and your creepy mates to bellow lame-ass threats of physical violence.

It is sort of amusing seeing…

funny as all hell. i'm not interested in starting this chain up here, but.... "heavy blogger" + "working man's pub"?

doesn't really gel, does it?

(original thread here)

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/02/the_press_on_labour.html#comments

Still no excuses, I should have just dropped it.

and well... wish i could view what's going on at whaleoil, but my home URL appears to have been denied permission shortly after i made my comments. presumably for calling whale an 'idiot'. goes to show, best response to a…

Anyone else seen this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_oil

I can't possibly approve of such a use of Wikipedia, but that's priceless.

but what happened next is ... bizarre.

It's hilarious! But Welly_Girl has offered to whip their butts.

I am now staring to see Kiwiblogger types in the street, in cars, in shops, I see them everywhere....I need help.

Click that link in my comment above (thanks to Che for drawing my attention to it) – it's somehow tragic and somehow hilarious. The lefty trolls who did the…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_oil

that said, lets tone down the anti-troll rhetoric, or RB will get grumpy. this isn't kiwiblog.

Indeed.

But let's not be calling James a troll. I disagree with pretty much everything he says, but he turns up and makes a case.

Possibly, but the antiwar guy reports that no such claim was made – I presume that includes verbally. But then he doen't say if he attended the briefing. So again a bit frustrating.

The Washington Post isn't in any doubt:

Asked about the "highest levels" charge, Burns replied: "The president…

"Do you believe it's a civil war, sir?" Raddatz pressed.

"It's hard for me, you know, living in this beautiful White House, to give you a firsthand assessment," he punted.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/14/AR2007021401593.html

It's hard to avoid the conclusion that what Pace said twice was a calculated moment of dissent from the official line.

edit function....some of us click post rather too quickly...

Much as I loath the extreme right wing site antiwar.com, it's the only place where there is any indication of a first-hand account and their claim is that the briefing specifically denied that there was concrete evidence of high level involvement:

The story you quote says there was no…

and, whilst on the treadmill at the gym I realised I'd typed Seymour Hersh's name yesterday as, Hershey. I must've been having guilt pangs about the Dairy Milk and Cashews bar I'd had for breakfast (hence the treadmill)

here…

surely what the US actually sees is a credible threat to its multi-billion dollar investment? don't you…

"the alternatives. Imperil Japan, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union or Tiannmen Square China"

Thats all you have, America or those guys,

I'm trying to think of some less loaded examples of functional non-democracies: Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Shanghai China, ?
Or less loaded not-so-functional non-democracies: Nth Korea, Tonga, Nepal,...

Anyone?

No doubt…

Thats all you have, America or those guys

exactly... the "love america or you'll get hitler" argument is the most stupid of all neo-con arguments.

that said, lets tone down the anti-troll rhetoric, or RB will get grumpy. this isn't kiwiblog.

Thats all you have, America or those guys,

I know you have a weak case mate but that is laughable!

"You may hate having you legs chopped off, but the only alternative is getting your head chopped…

It seems very, very hard to believe that the governments in these types of countries do not know about, if not be actively involved in this insurgent support activity. Such activity would be entirely consistent with these countries' self interest.

In the case of Iran, at least, this is simply…

For starters, don't you think it would be nice if Iran didn't deny the Holocaust and threaten to wipe Israel off the map?

And then we get into stoning people to death, the gigs Hezbollah did in Argentina 10 years ago,…

America, far from perfect, but try thinking of the alternatives. Imperil Japan, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union or Tiannmen Square China.

The same goes for free markets and…

what the fuck are the Democrats doing to prove theiy're competent to be a loyal opposition, let alone take over the executive?

It's true that if the Dems make it into the Whiteouse they might not do such a great job – but then again, they might. Craigs argument that…

... but this is more defensible.

Nevertheless, I like the Amartya Sen line on democracy. India hasn't had a famine since independence. It has had real hunger, but not famine, because under a democracy governments are held to account.

Also, y'know Dwarf Wheat, which led to the doubling of wheat…

It appears so far that in fact no one claimed evidence of high level Iranian invlovement.

Or only did so verbally. Like I said, deniability.

Much as I loath the extreme right wing site antiwar.com, it's the only place where there is any indication of a first-hand account and their claim is that the briefing specifically…

but i don't understand you to be either an evangelist or a crusader....

afaik no country in the world was what we currently consider a functional democracy in the 1930s.

you might want to read george mosse, confronting the nation: jewish and western Nationalism, 1993. he…

germany was highly liberal before fascism but history overtook it in the form of the depression.

That's just bollocks, I'm afraid. The Weimar state was pretty evenly divided between parties of the left and right. The depression lent traction to the communists as much as it did extremists on the…

deborah's point holds. the grounds for democracy were there…

America, not quite as bad as imperial Japan or Nazi…

Oh come on. I thought it was a pretty uncontentious statement of fact that Germany and Japan most certainly had democracy 'imposed' on them during the lengthy Allied occupations and they're no less functional democracies in 2007 for it. And what exactly did the folks calling for economic sanctions,…

Trying to work out what has gone on is actually a bit confusing. Apparently on Sunday three US military folk in Bagdad claimed evidence of high level Iranian govt involvement. From Simon's…

it fought them because it had to. iraq presented no credible threat to anyone in 2003.

Craig actually has a good point. You seem a little 'down' on the Americans at present. Probably rightfully so, but don't be blinded by the odd huge cock-up and mistakes. I would rather put up with some errors of judgement by the Americans than to have been occuppied by…

wonder what they'd say about that in Tokyo and Berlin.

you may care to note that hitler was a democratically elected leader, for one.

you might also care to note that the japanese were nuked into submission. the subsequent occupation was by hostile powers. not by…

Um... I wonder what they'd say about that in Tokyo and Berlin. And with all due respect, I think there are some corners of the world where eyebrows would be htting the stratosphere at such a…

Imposing a democracy is an incoherent concept.

indeed. especially when your 'tutors' in democracy are saying, "you're free to make any choice you want! [...that agrees with our janus-faced foreign policy]"

Also from the Canberra story:

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad denied Monday that Iran is supplying weapons to Shiite militias in Iraq or stirring up violence by majority Shiites against minority Sunni Muslims, contending that the…

Democracy is a bottom up affair, not one that can be imposed.

Imposing a democracy is an incoherent concept.

India hasn't had a famine since independence. It has had real hunger, but not famine, because under a democracy governments are held to account.

...and the similarities between post-independence democracy in India and the "democracy" currently on parade in Iraq are?

However it seems, at least to me, that in this case it is just foolishness. The announcement of…

democracy isn't the only or most effective method of governance in the world

Crikey, Che! Them's fighting words....

this dogmatic preoccupation with 'democracy at any cost' is getting ordinary people brutally killed

... but this is more defensible.

Nevertheless, I like the Amartya Sen line on democracy. India hasn't had…

But that does not mean that the problems with…

may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your loincloth

And with all due respect, Russell, what the fuck are the Democrats doing to prove theiy're competent to be a loyal opposition, let alone take over the executive? I suspect your average Iraqi would…

iran's meddling

and the ethnic militia line are simply ways to detract from the collosal screw up that is the invasion of iraq.

i believe the counterpoint to "iranian meddling" is "US guidance".

frankly, if iranian democracy was installed in…

The Iranian president refused to address directly the United States accusation that the weapon made by Iran have killed Americans but said the Americans were trying to find a scapegoat.

Pace did not make the…

That coupled with the fact…

Well didn't deny the allegation

uhhh. Iran has denied the allegation several times. Here is one from Ahmadinejad himself, since thats what you wanted.

I'm bemused by the concept that the US Chief of Staff is being kept that far out of the loop. Perhaps Hershey was right, and there…

And whatever the past,…

even my 2nd year uni students at monash were picking holes in that particular bullshit.

And I can't help but wonder, with NZ's political system continually picking up more and more of…

This link is…

Austrian Rifles in Iraq

That is an awful lot of firepower...I certainly hope it is only sabre rattling.

As for Iran, I really can't see military action by the US against them. It breaks the mold of requiring a 30:1 advantage in force. Desperate sabre rattling to distract from…

here

And the Fisking ...

here

O tempora, o mores.